This mimacript is the product of a tape recorded interview conducted by Jim Krohe for the Oral History Office m January 31, 1972.
In this memoir Ssmxel A. Sgro discusses various aspects of the Springfield I tal ian-brican carrmni ty.
Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the ~poken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor mu&t to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangmn State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the manoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reprocheed in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mchanical, without permission in writing frcm the Oral History Office, Sangmn State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62794-9243.
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
Smel A. Sgro, Springfield, Illinois, January 31, 1972.
Jim Krohe. Intervimr.
Q : Men was the first time your fanily opened a store?
A: The very late 1800ts. The original store was built on Ninth and Carpenter Streets, This was in an ethnic neighborhood, predaninantly, at that time, Italian and Iri~h. On the other side of the tracks, which is Tenth and Carpenter continuing over to Fifteenth Street, was predaninantly G e m and Jewish. Same of the well-hwn names in Springfield today, like Stern and Gingold and Barker-Lubin, all lived in that particular neighborhood. This was the area north of Miller Street between Eleventh and Fifteenth. South of Reynolds Street was an area that was inhabited matly by Negroes, where naw stands the John Hay H m s .
The few stores that wre in the neighborhood at that time were wets, ours, and Ftechner's. They were actually centers for activity in each neighborhood. Gossip was passed and food was prepared and so forth. It's sanething that reeks with nostalgia ncw. Our store, or my grandfather's store at the time, was a center for the Italian-speaking people who couldn't use the English laqpage too well. My grandfather was one of the fortunate ones who h e w how to read and write in Italian and in English. Consequently his store served as a clearing house =most of the hsiness transacted in the neighhrhood, not only in food, lxxt legal docmnta a d so forth.
Coal miners wre predaninant in the area, because Springfield at that time had many coal mines within the city limits. And just adjacent to Springfield wre maxry more coal mines. Consequently the whole area, both German and I talian, were predaninant ly coal miners.
Q: Is that why they cane to this area? Looking for mrk?
A: Yea. There was an abundance of coal mines, ard the damrd for labor was great at that tirne. I can rensnber as a little kid that during the winter, times were b o d q because the coal mines operated every day. Overtime and so forth was unheard of aB far as pay goes, kt the hours wre there. I can remenhr sane of the miners talkirg about ten, twelve, and fourteen hour days. &wing the sunnertime the store became a focal point, not really by choice, but by necessity, simply because they had to charge everything.
Are you faniliar with the Mil 1 Restaurant? (A mll-known and rather -naive local supper club. Ed.) It used to be a grocery store. Cohen awned it, a Jewish fanily. He catered to the Jewish and German people at that t b . After the so-called Great Depression was over he changed it
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
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to a m c k shop, catering to the Pillshry Mills people. lhey liked the food so well that he grew to what he is today.
By contrast, my grandfather HK~S an inporter of linens, artvmrk, bedspreads and so forth--things that you don't see today. %en his sons John and Frank beceme older they were encouraged to open up other stores. They called 'en the wCitizensf Markets." There wre John, Frank, Pete, ard my father (Anthony. Ed. note). Joe, of cauree, was the yamgest of the family, and was a butcher at the ham atore. Then they branched out to the southwest, to Ninth and Washington Streets, which at the time was ninety-five per cent white. This was the firat supermarket in the State of Illinois.
Q: When was thi a?
A: I wuld say in the late 1920's or early 1930's. It was on the sauthst corner of Ninth and Wshington Streets, which today is a vacant lot. I think that in subsequent years Midas hlrffler was the last Wsiness I knew of that m e there. The tuilding had been partitioned off. Prior to that time it was wite a large building. I can ranerrJ3er as a kid going with my father and buying whole flocks of chickens, whole fields of potatoes-- before they were picked--and the chickens being transported back to the store in cases . . . you knm, live in boxes. In those days they didn't have a central checkout, bt they had fifteen registers, and each department checked out its avvn things.
Let me get back to the original store. The store flourished. Prior to the Depression, during Prohibition I should say, there was quite a contraverlsy as to why the store was graving and everything. bring those days I think there was a lot of problerns mng ethnic groups, m n g the pro-bootleggers and the ones that were against alcohol in any form. My grandfather's store was blown up because he wouldn't suhnit to extortion, or ftprotectionn as it was cal led. So he retuil t the store and it was blwn up a second time. Finally peace was mde, and they allcmd us to continue business as usual. It used to be a hotbed aroutxl there. I can r-r sane of the h m a adjacent to the store mystericrusly blowing up in the middle of the night, when they had their stills in the basement. They weren't controlling than and away they went! (laughter)
Q: In all the reading I've done about Springfield's history I've never run across any mention of any sort of boot legging, either local manufacturing or distributing, much less anybodyts store being b l m up by the protection rackets . A: It happened, ht nobody talks about it. Bootlegging was not done, I don't believe, on a large scale here in Springfield. I think most of the people did it rmch the sane way as the guy who goes fishing without a license. You knw, he says, The heck with it. I'm not going to adhere to this pverrraent regulation." Arryway, I wuld say that most of the people in Springfield, in one way or another, participated in anti-governnent regulations concerning Prohibition.
That was an interesting: era, where a good l ~ la r ry of the people who did - bootleg, and did sell their product to the speakeasies-at the time there
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
were ramerous ones throughout the whole city-became rather wealthy. But as far as organized crime goes, I don't really think there was too rmch in Springfield at the time. That was just an era, a phase the grocery store want through. There's still rimy hams around that neighborhood, that -re awned by Germans, by Italians, and by Jews, that the basenent tunnels out to the back alley, and a man-hole-type caver was lifted off. They could put whatever they were nuking in their basements into their cars for transportation. I can ranaaber going in s m of those mazes When I was a kid.
Q : I'm still curious about the early neighborhood when your fanily first got into the business.
A: Well, the lxlsiness started out with my grandfather being interested in a permanent location. Prior to opening a formal store, my grancLnother ueed to bake bread and they used to plt it on pushcarts. This was prior to the mss distribution of bread, and at the time, marry people said, "Store-bought bread? You've got to be crazy. It'll never go.'' So John and Frank used to peddle the bread on the carts all around the neighborhood for as far away as ten blocks. The bread hsiness becane very good, and ny tw aunts and my grandmther were baking bread continuously. Then my grandfather branched out into inporting olive oil and importing some linens and so forth, and decided t h t the cart would no longer be sufficient to display and sell the wares.
They got into the grocery business as a mall frame structure that eventually blossaned into a tw-story brick structure that still stands today. They m e d upstairs. This was the carmon practice at the time--to live above your business. I don't Imawwhy, perhaps it was for lxlsiness or protection. Then they branched out fran that into the Witizenls Mrkets" Which, at its zenith, included five markets. The brothers, of course, as with most families, decided that each wuld prsue his am groal rather than pursue a carmon goal. Thus, the chain no longer stayed intact. Cbnsequently, the only two stores ranaining wre the one on Ninth and Carpenter, which was the hame store, and the one that father had purchased fran Theodore Riesenhardt in the early 1900's. Prior to that time, it vwas owned by a lllan by the name of Miller, who HRILS Jewish. It shawed the changing ethnic pattern of the neighborhood fran Jewish to German and back to a cpasi-Italian store. Wxt we had a mixture of everybdy in the store.
Q: Sam of the older ladies in the neighborhood who wre loathe to shop m e r e else always made it a point to shop at t'Sgrols.n How did this loyalty develop?
A: I think wer the years you get to know people's habits. And I mean not only their eating habits; but their idiocyncracies and everything. I think that if I'd turned q y collar around I could have been a Father Confessor. (laughter) But after a while, through familiarity and acceptance on both sides, people mre not reluctant to tell you their problems. You knew their financial difficulties, their sicknesses, and their desires.
Certain people wuld cane in and I wuld know exactly what they wre going to order, because their eating habits never changed. mybe once in a while they'd have a party, and they wuld vary their hying habit by as
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
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mch as five dollars for sanething they normally didn't my. I could almost tell to the pound what people were going to buy fran week to week. This shaws that the eating habits of most fmilies stayed rather steady, no mtter where they shopped. It was gratifying on my part to anticipate what they wre gonna order. I h e w what kid of steak they wuld buy, what kind of ground beef they wanted, and who wanted it pound once and who wanted it pound twice.
Certain individuals wuld bring their o m containers thinking that their's was cleaner than the paper goods the store put out. It was kind of a funny thing, a kernan cunedy, if you will. The Saladim, family, who had been there since the early 1900's was an exmnple. Mrs. Saladinots idiocyncracies ran along the lines that she washed everything, w e She'd take a T-bone steak ham and it got scrubbed before it went ** in o her pan. I asked her one time why she felt that she had to wash everything. It seems that in the old country she wnt to a slaughterhouse that had no standards of any kind. They would nrerely whack the animal on the head with an axe and then have a rmle drag the bleeding carcass across the
ground. They they m l d hang it onto a fly-infested rack in an open shed and butcher it without cutting off any section. They just butchered hunks of meat off. This was so prevalent in her mind that it got to a point where she wldntt eat meat. Her family liked it, but she mldn't eat the mat herself. In'ental ly, she has a story about the time Lahe came over to this country on the boat as a very young girl. She was so frightened that she had a veil on her head and nwer took it off the whole trip. (laughter)
8: k e n did Concordia College open its doors? What effect did it have on the business?
A: a r busineas centered around Concordia College. I think it was established in the 1800'8, the 1890's or mybe even predating the 1890's. [The college, a Lutheran Seminary, opened its doors in 1846. Ed.] I4 was strongly Germen in nature. This was why I was able to pick up a half-way corxversational German--by just being associated with the people and Qoing a daily business with then. At one t i m , every professor at the college traded at the store. You got to know the college as if it were a liying thing.
We, of course, supplied the dormitories. Right after the war, I belj their enrollment was at its greatest peak. It se& as thou@ aftel Second World HPar there w s a religious revival that swept the whole country. lVbre veteran students were enrolled to beconre ministers th can wer ranember. They lived dormitory-style simply because they w used to regimentation in the service. We supplied all the food for I and they ate real well. It was nothing for them to call up and ordel fifteen hundred pork chops, and tvm or three hundred pork steaks, twr or thirty hems, and things like that. As time mre on, the domitoq the college itself declined in attendance to a point where it warsntt prof itable for them to operate the domi tory or the cafeteria. They leased it out to a catering service that wishes to God it had never 1 of it. (laughter)
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Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
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Q: How tightly h i t was the Italian carrmnity in these early years?
A: Well, I'd say very close. I'd say in the early years that they all hew each other. There was mch inter-relationship between nearly all the fmilies. In fact, at that time, I would wager that there wasn't one Italian family that didn't know every other Italian fanily in the city of Springfield.
Q: Wre they that geographically concentrated?
A: The hi@ concentration was around Carpenter, Fteynolds, and Eighth Street. I would say fran Eighth Street north and east to Fifteenth south of Carpenter and north of Reynolds, the concentrations of Italians were very, very high. In fact, they called Carpenter Street and Miller Street betwen Eighth and Tklfth "Little I talytt , because the concentrat ion of Italian people w s so dense in that area.
Q: Were there kinds of jobs besides sweating in the mines that were open to Italians? For instance, *re craftanen able to work a trade?
A: Yes, especially in ceramics--tiling, tile setting, etcetera. In fact, if you weren't Italian in those days, you just didn't becane a tile setter. The mosaics that were put into St. John's Hospital and nearly every state structure in this area was done by the Italian imnigrants. Even to this day this is predaninantly true, They were tile setters renowned because there were just no others that had the time and experience to pick up that trade. There are s m quite artistic designs that are today still in evidence that were all hand-done. They werenlt done fran a pattern as it is done today.
Q: When did the store mve fran Ninth and Carpenter over to Eleventh and rns?
A: M l l , for a long time both stores mre in operation. My Uncle John Sgro ran the Ninth and Carpenter operation and my father ran the Eleventh and Enos operation. John retired about 1955, and died shortly thereafter. A@ father retired in 1967, and I took over the operation entirely. Prior to that time, I had wrked with him since childhood. I guess I was the last male Sgro in the grocery business, and still I'm not out of it.
I opened that store in Petershurg. This was a kind of retrogression. It's a kind of drean of mine. I wanted to retrogress rather than change everything to a chrane and steel structure. h've got sanething out there that's naw back fifty years--pots and pans hanging fran the ceiling. We cure our awn hams in our smoke house. We try to use little or no chemicals, and anything that's processed. It's more or less a health thing, lxlt not advertised as such. And, it's a drean that I've had that I've finally seen cane true, and I'm real pleased with it. It's not by any mans a hi@ly profitable thing, but by golly I'm doing what--I'm doing my thing, and I really enjoy it. It's a very pleasing thing to see a store that's still operating on the early 1900's basis rather than mss production and mss rrmrement of traffic,
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
Q: You came into contact with all the people in the neighborhod arclund Eleventh and Ems. Hawt s that changed over the years?
A: k11, at one time it was German-Italian. In our Eleventh Street operation, it was I'd say, sixty per cent German and forty per cent Italian. They wnt for the barrel kraut and the brautwurst and stuff like that which ~ l e made right there. The nucleus of our business consisted of the many, manry fmilies wha have ranained with us thro~~@~out all this changing fran the event of the supermarket. I think I could have charged th& double, and they wuldnt t have changed their buying habits there.
Within the last two years, I have noticed that a peat many younger people were caning into the neighborhood. They had no loyalties. I mean they wuld shop one store and then another store and then another store, and they just didn't have a buying loyalty that the older families did. I found that in a -11 store such as ours the buying habits of the people changed so that they would buy all of your specialties in a -11 store and nothing of your regular staples. If m r ~ of your regular staples were on sale smplace else, they would transport to that other place.
I'm thoroughly convinced, and I think most everybody else has been corrvinced, that this was b~mght about because of the autambile. It has had tb greatest influence on neighborhoods, on cities, on states, and on any other thing in the country. Television, radio, and the rest of the mss media did not and does not affect the people as mch as the autanobile. Men people didn't have them they stayed within a four-block area, period. They visited with one another, =re born and sanetimes died without going outside of that area many times. I3ut today, it's nothirg to drive fifty or one hundred miles to do what you want to do. This is the greatest single factor I think in the changing wrld, as you will,
Q: How has the autanobile disrupted a lot of the old patterns?
A: Well, not only b e it disrupted the pattern of living, but it has tended to de-socialize people. This is a strange phenanena. Take families who were at one time very clorse--cousins, first cousins, and so forth--and you were aver at their house as a youngster. You really got to ~ C Y W them and their parents. You knew all their faults, and in spite of that you stuck tqgether.
My family maybe has, all told, one huxked and fifty first cousins and relations in this town. It was a very c m n thing on any given night to have -body over at your house. This is no longer true. Since everyone of the families n w has cars and children have autambiles, they don't visit. The means to visit are more prevalent today than they ever were, ht they do z i s i t, On rare occasions--widding, sickness, and death in the fmily--they all get together. Unless it's a planned, executed family reunion once a year. There's always talk, sentimentality, about ''let's do this, and let's do that," but it never really canes about. In our family, the girls, the Hnmen of the family have foutxled a wcausins club" where they try to meet at least once a month. Hell, it's to the point now where I don't even know sar~ of rny cousints n-s, you knuv, second and third cousins. 1 really don't. (laughter)
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
I blame the whole problan on the autambile. Without which you wuld have thirty additional markets in town that you do not have today. And they in turn supported the local wholesalers, who in turn supported sarmne all the way up the ladder. Midstate's [a local wholeaaleing firm. M.] going to ga out of business as a wholesale outfit because there's not e n o w anall stores buying from than. Italian-American Importing Capany is going out of business at the end of this month because there's not enough stores buying frm them. Public Foods is very seriously considering cplitting business, simply because there aren't enough anall stores left to buy fran than. All right. The supermarket a-qloys fifty people, but When you had fifty stores enploying at least three and as mamy as seven each, the job mrket was a hell of a lot better than it is today in the long run. The autambile, here again, is the basic factor for the change.
Q: Fllhat *re the miin churches for the Italian Catholics in the neighborhood?
A: St. Maryts Church m a at one tim the strongest church. It is naw St. John's Chapel. But that was founded by Italians, W e d by Italians through donatiom and what have you, and then becam absorbed into St . John's Hospital. St. Peter's and Paul's m a at that time strongly G e m . The G e m nei@mrhood split right there in the island of Italians fran Mlfth Street on to Eighth. &an there it went into the German neighborhood again, fran there over to First Street and Rutledge Street to the Reisch bewry. They used to call St. Peter's and Paul's the "LXztch Pen.'' There wre three public schools that I knw of that are still there. They are McClernand and Palmer and Bum. But hmmuel Lutheran was there all the time and catered to the G e m Tutherans.
S t . Peter's and Paulsts was almost evenly split the later years between Italians artd Germans. As far back as I can rmenbr fran kindergartan on there waa only one Negro family in St. Peter's and Paul's. After I got out of grade school there, I think there wre two or three Negro families. And ncnnr it's got to a point where I wuld say it was forty per cent Negro.
Q: Mat kind of discrimination did the Italian families have to face here in Springfield when they first c m over?
A: I can' t say that there was too rmch discrimination as far as buying a haw wnt. I will say that a good marry of than could not get jobs. This was a pathetic thing at the time. grandfather, Sam Sgro, in order to counteract this, founded what was called "Concord hatesn which mans "brothers all.I1 And through this club--it started out with twenty d e r s and ended up with several hundred members--they exert their own pressure in order to get city jobs and 6 ~ ) forth. This was a camm practice in those days. Presenting a great block of votes often times carried mre pressure than you could exert on a humanitarian basis. So nConcord Frateaw was in operation for several years before it evolved into what becane b u m as the Italian-American Club, which basted at one time aweral thousard m b e r s and became a very walthy and very pmrful club in Sanganon munty.
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
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This brought about great changes as far as hiring practices went. Italians
were then accepted into the Elks Club and to sane of the other social organizations in the country. But still there wre certain organizations they probably couldntt have gotten into, like the Illini Country Club and so forth. Qaite a few Italians belong to it now, ht at the time, during those fomulating: years, nobocty thought that m n if they had the money to spnd, they wuld join it . The job situation at that time was such that you just didn't go outside the mines unless you had a trade.
These poups wre formed and they have canbated this discrimination, and it's felt, because every time an Italian namz was mntioned they associated it with gangsterim. A lot of them resent it bitterly. Sure there were Italian gangsters. There were also Jewi& gangsters and G e m gangsters. But it becane a kid of a sore point. Often times I can rmmber when I was a kid walking into a place arvd they say, ''Here cams the mafia," and stuff like that. I thought "Boy, ~hboy.~' It's one of those things that you have to live d m , just as the J m lived dowl the idea that every Jew is rich. There couldn't be a more mistruth.
Q: mt's happened to sane of those old families that were there. back in the early days that have stayed around Springfield?
A: Well, let's see . . . the Licatas, he was a coal miner at o m time. His sons have spread out all wer the country. He's got several in California. Qlets a vice-president of a rubber ccnpany there. Another is a chef and manager for the Downtowner Motel, and one's an insurance executive in Wisconsin. Another one oms Licatas' Cleaners. Crifasis lived right next door. They, of course, had Stevie's Latin Villages, which are naw defunct, but Stevie himself i a running the Orlando Hotel in I)ecatur, Jack, of course, has the Southern Air. Angelo has the Pixie Pantry. Joe had a restaurant in mign-Urbana area. Next door was the Grecos. I don't lmcrw what they're doing. I think they -re in everything. ($le of than had a carnival and one of than is a vice-president of hblford Morris Sales here in tam, m e of them, I think, is just living off his wits. Another one has a used car lot. Next door to then were the Nladonias, the Joe Wdonia family. Frankie is City Carmissioner. Vincent is the vice-president of Autcm~tive Hholesalers of Illinois. Sam is an engineer with the state. Andrea was killed at Tarawa,
Q: Is Andy mdonia one of Frankts brothers?
A: No. AmIy is a first cousin. He lived across the street on the other side. His father was neaned Vincent. His father is dead. He had a tavern which is now tom dawn--the Ninth Street Tavern. Andy wrks, of course, out at Sangawn State. His brother, Philip, is with the Graae Cclrpatry as an accountant. His brother, Joe--I 'm not sure what het s doing nw. His other sisters are married ard living out of the state. The Madonia fanily, I think, has twlve or thirteen in the family, and the majority of than are still here in Springfield, Illinois. One's a nurse, and the rest of the girls are all mrried and living in Missouri or California.
Q: Wat did the elder lVladonials do?
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
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A: Vincent, of course, is deceased.
Q: Wmt did they do when they first came here?
A: They started out in the coal mines. Vincent, of course, bought the Eieth Street Tavern, and Joe bought the Holiday Inn. In fact, he had the name Holiday Inn prior to the name as a mtel chain. This restaurant was located on North Grand and 1VlacArtWr right across from Cmp Lincoln. Now the Suplex Canpany is located there. That used to be one of the hottest spots in the town. He, Joe, also bought all that property where he has Francella Courts and a m l l subdivision. He's got another sub-division out by the airport--property he acquired for next to nothing.
Another fanily in the neighborhood was LaFioria. They moved to Alabama. They have a grocery store and a trucking c- naw. There was a Greek that lived there, too, and I can't r d e r his name--his name was Arthur. He used to run a restaurant, and he was also a candy maker. An Albanese family lived there for years. The father naw lives out on North Wrlin, and he1 s retired. And their only son, Joe, is with ATT. Then there was the Walker family that lived on the corner, Where the H and W car lot is naw.
There was one Negro family that lived right in the middle of it. Their nam was Nelson. There wre one, tw, three, four, five, families living in one b. This ham was awarded to them, or was plrchased by then right after the slaves were freed. They lived there ever since. My father ntrw cwns the place, and m've torn dawn the ham. Wzt that fanily was the only Negro family in the Whole nei@borhood. They were accepted by everyone. There was no discrimination against than. I used to fight cat and dog with the kid, and he used to whip me most of the time. He'd call rm dagc~ and I'd call him nigger; you knw how those things go when you1 re a kid. Sadoros is dead nuv. He was a body guard for Gorvenor Green, I believe.
There was one fanily I r-r as a kid that moved into the neighborhood by the nrme of Schrol 1 , and they wre German. And they were accepted. And the Antonacci's lived there. They have Lincoln Cab &anparry now. The father died in an airplane crash. There wre three sets of mdonias in there, and Randazzos and Falitias.
Right across the tracks was a big ice plant. Bill Vettor ran that. Next door to the Vettorle was the Ftam.natols. And then on down the line there were several other German families that lived there. They mrked for the Vettor's in the ice plant. I used to watch ice being made the old-fashion way and stored in the moden houses and so forth. Horse-drawn carts would c- arvd pick the ice up. That makes me aound pretty old, and I'm only forty years old, but at the time I can still r&er the horse-drawn carts. I dontt knw whether they didn't want to go in for rrrechanization or perhaps they just couldn't afford it at the time.
I can renmber one incident that's real funrry. I had just been allowed to go to the Saturday afternoon nxrvies, The mi llunan cane up with his horse-drawn cart full of milk in the back. I got up on the seat, took the Whip out and Whipped the horses, and down the street we went, with milk falling out the back of the cart! (lauwter)
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
Q: How about politics in those early days? Were the ethnic neighborhoods, especially the Italians, considered politically powerful?
A: They wre powerful through the Italian-Amrican Club, at that time. This waa probably a reaaon why you've had so many Italians mrking for the city. 'Ihey -re not extrenely vocal, lxrt very prolific. I think that they had their share; in face, more than their share to be honeat with you--percentagewise--in proportion to poplation.
Q: Were there any major Italian political figures--either public or private?
A: No. There were a lot of powerful figures, behind-the-scenes pawerful figures, but there wren1t my Italians who were elected to office that I can mmabr as a child. I can't nane one to nymmoryuntil Bill Cellini [Springfield Carmissioner of Streets, elected in the mid 1960's. Ed,] that was ever elected to the City Council or to any major city office.
Q: Did they ever try?
A: They tried several times and were defeated in the primary elections. In those days I can remember the conversation being carried on that you wouldn't have a chance because everyone muld band against you. This is exactly what happened. The vote would be extremely heavy and they stopped it.
Q: This was all pretty rmch Democratic, I assum?
A: No, Republican.
Q: In the bigger cities in Illinois, take Chicago, you hdiately associate the Damocrats with Italians or vice versa. The party loyalty has always been to the Democrats. I've heard fran several sources that it's just the reverse in Springfield and has been for quite sane time. I was wondering why that happened?
A: It's strange to m, too. My grandfather was a Republican and as he went so wnt the neighborhood. This was true with a lot of the older heads of families who at that time associated with each other, They m l d sit down and talk about things and if they let it be Zmovm to the other people of the neighborhood that they were all going Fkpblican, then it seemed the votes swung very heavily toward Republicanian.
By contrast, today I guess I'm a rebel. I'm a Democrat. The pendulun has swung the opposite way, ntrw that the younger generations don't adhere to the wishes of the older generation as they used to in the past. kk kind of worked together with several fellas in the neighborhood--I wrked for the Dermcratic Party. Consequently the precinct has gone entirely Democratic. Very, very few tinres has a Republican ever been elected fran that general precinct.
Q: Is there any reason why the old family leaders might have gone lbpblican in the first place? Was there an association with a particular mayor?
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
A: No, because the mayors at that time wrenlt running on a political ticket. They knew their affiliations, naturally, txlt they weren't allowed to nm in a party run-off. I have never been told why. Wlt you can be sure there mst have been sane type of agreement saxwhere that founded the belief in the Replblican Party. I'm sure that when these people cane aver to this country, they were neither Republican nor Democratic. They didn't quite follow politics, They viere just looking for a better opportunity to survive and expand. h4y father could give you better informtion on that.
My mtherls side of the fanily =re all split, too. They were Democratic and Republican. My grandfather on my mother's side was a Republican precinct cannitteeman for years and years. He was in charge of the fairgrounds area. But by the same token, I donlt really knw why I becane a Danocrat. Perhaps it was because I was a rebel inrny day, and since everyone else was Republican, I becane a Denrocrat. Naw at the tire I believed in the Liberalian that two few had too rmch and now I'm getting to a point where there's those that wrk are those that should receive. I guess becaning to . . . I don't hmw whether it's maturity or I resent being taxed for everything that I turn around with to give to samebody who has nothing, I feel that those who have nothing should wrk the same way I have to wrk in order to get sanething--if they're able.
Q: You talk like that I'm going to have to go out and get a real job.
A: No, really though, if you stop arad think about it , . . like this thing that was in the paper yesterday, it galls my rear end. Mhy should HR give Vietne--1--2.5 billion dollara? Do you realize what they could hild the finest university in the wrld right here with that kind of mney . Q: They could build the finest university in the wrld here for half a billion.
A: Right, I'm talking about the things that could be done here. M y should WE give a country that has killed 50,000 Amricans-better than that--2.5 billion dollars.
Q: You got me.
A: No, if a man blacks my eye that's okay, hit the other one if you give n~ 2.5 billion dollars. Their going to spend 7.2 billion on the whole area. I think we should take that sane money and put it right here in our country. Realize that's a thousand dollars, better than a thousand dollars, for wery voting citizen of this country--better than a thousand dollars apiece. That's a year's education in college of most of em. I just . . . you know, you get pretty confused sanetimes. Q: I'm about out of tape here . . .
Jkd of Tape
Samuel A. Sgro Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS
