Download - Episode 3.14 Getting Shit Sandwiched with Vivek Shraya€¦ · Secret Feminist Agenda Transcript 1 Episode 3.14 Getting Shit Sandwiched with Vivek Shraya January 18, 2019 Hannah (Host):

Secret Feminist Agenda Transcript

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Episode3.14GettingShitSandwichedwithVivekShrayaJanuary18,2019

Hannah(Host): 00:06 [Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgenda.I'mrecordingthisfromEdmonton,whereIhadthepleasureofrecordingaliveSecretFeministAgendawithChelseaVowel,a.k.a.âpihtawikosisân,andrelaunchingRefuse:CanLitinRuinswithJulieRak,andNikkiReimer,andChelsea,andCJBogle,andMarylinDumont.You'llgettohearmyconversationwithChelseadownthelineasanepisode,andifyou'dliketoexperiencethebrillianceofthelaunch,youcouldbuythebook.Thatwouldbeagoodwayofdoingit.Anyway,that'swhythisepisodeisabitlate,becauseI'minEdmontonandoffmyusualschedule.Also,there'salittleweirdaudiointerferenceinsomeofthisepisode.Ididmybesttoedititout,butIdidn'twanttolosetoomuchoftheactualcontent,soIleftsomejankysoundingbitsintopreservesomeactualbrilliantideas,fromtheguestobviously,notme.It'snotthewholething,soIhopeyou'llbearwithitforthegreatconversationtocome.Andonthatnote,let'smeetVivek.[Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]VivekShrayaisanartistwhosebodyofworkacrossastheboundariesofmusic,literature,visualart,andfilm.HeralbumwithQueerSongbookOrchestra,Part-TimeWoman,wasincludedinCBC'slistofBestCanadianAlbumsof2017andherfirstbookofpoetry,EvenThisPageisWhite,wona2017PublisherTriangleAward.HerbestsellingnewbookI'mAfraidofMen,washeraldedbyVanityFairas"culturalrocketfuel."SheisonehalfofthemusicduoTooAttachedandthefounderofthepublishingimprintVSBooks.APolarisMusicPrizenomineeandfour-timeLambdaLiteraryAwardFinalist,Vivekwasa2016PrideTorontoGrandMarshalandhasreceivedhonorsfromtheWritersTrustofCanadaandCBC'sCanadaReads.SheiscurrentlyadirectorontheboardoftheTeganandSaraFoundationandanassistantprofessorofcreativewritingattheUniversityofCalgary.Andyetsomehowshefoundtimetotalkwithmeforthepodcast.[Music:"I'mAfraidofMen"byTooAttached]

Hannah(Host): 03:00 That'sgreat.So,Iwouldreallyliketohearhowtheyearoftouringyournewbookhasbeengoing.Thenewbookis,thiswillprobablybeinthebio,butheck,let'ssayitanyway.ThenewbookisI'mAfraidofMenandithasbeen,fromwhatI'vebeenseeing,appearstobejustamassivesuccess.


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Vivek: 03:26 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 03:26 So[laughs]maybethis,maybeit'sjustthebiasofmyparticularsocialmediapresence,butit,itlookslikeit'sdoingincrediblywell.Sohow'sthetouringprocessforthisbigtitle?

Vivek: 03:38 Yeah,ImeanIwasalittlebitnervousbecause...Imean,withanyprojectyou'realwaysnervousaboutwhattheresponseisgoingtobe,andyouknow,formeit's,it'sasignificantbookbecauseit'smyfirsttimemovingintoarelationshipwithalargerpress.Andso--

Hannah(Host): 03:56 Yeah.

Vivek: 03:56 --youknow,forthepastfouryearsI'vebeenworkingreallycloselywithArsenalPulpPress,whoareamazingandIcontinuetohavearelationshipwiththem.Butyouknow,onceyoudeveloprelationshipbutyousortofgetasenseoftheflowanditwasstartingthisnewrelationshipwithPenguin,it'sjustsortoflikestartingalloveragain.Andthestakesfelthigherinallkindsofwaysbecauseyouknow,Ireallywantedtolike,dorightbythem,butsimultaneouslyyoudon'treallyhavealotofcontrol.AndwithatitlelikeI'mAfraidofMen,yeah,therewasjustsortofalotofuncertaintyonmypart,intermsofhowpeoplewouldconnect,ifpeoplewouldfeelimmediatelyalienated.AndifanythingIfeelliketheoppositehasbeentrue.Bustlejustputoutanarticlelikelastweekthatsaidthat"I'mafraidofmen"like,bestdescribesthemoodof2018,orsomethinglikethat.

Hannah(Host): 04:46 [Laughs].

Vivek: 04:46 Whichisgreat.


Vivek: 04:47 Andtourwise,again,theresponsehasbeenreallylike,lovelyandIcouldn'thaveaskedforabetterexperience.ThisisthefirsttimethatIdidalotoflike,themajorliteraryfestivalsinCanadatoo,whichagainwasareallybigdealforme.Soitwas,itwasreallyinterestingtogetthatexperiencebecausesuddenlyyou'reinthesameroomaslike,youknow,DionneBrandandEdenRobinsonlikeBuffySaint-Marie.Soitjustlike,it's,it'saverydifferentexperiencethen,youknow,twoyearsagowhenIwastouringEvenThisPageisWhiteandyouknow,doingindiebookstores,whicharealsofantastic,butit's,itwasjustreallyinterestingtogettheotherperspective.And,andnowandas,


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youknow,likeI'mobsessedwiththeindustryandlike,learningaboutthebusiness,soformeit's,itwasjustlikeaninterestinglearningprocesstootoseelike,whatthedifferenceswereexactly.

Hannah(Host): 05:39 No,IhavesomanyfollowupsIhavefromthat.Thefirstthing,Imean,Iobviouslyamalsoreallyinterestedintheinsandoutsoftheindustry,andit'ssointerestingtometosortofobserve,Imean,causeI'vebeenreadingyourwork,I'vebeenfollowingyourworkforyears.

Vivek: 05:54 Oh,wow.Thankyou.

Hannah(Host): 05:54 Andtoreallysee,Imeanit's,thankyou.It'samazingwork.Andtoseethe,thesortofnatureofsmallpressversusmultinationalpressreception,likeitfeelssoconcreteinthiscase.And,andit,itmightbe,youknow,likewecantheorizetillthecowscomehome,howthebook,wouldhavebeenreceiveddifferentlyifpublishedwithasmallpress,andwhetherthiswasjustgoingtobeyourbreakouttitle,whatever.Butthatthatfeelingoflike,"oh,Penguinhastakenyouonandnowyouareintheroomwhereithappens."Likeit,ithaslookedlikethatfromtheoutsideatleast.

Vivek: 06:31 Yeah.AndImean,Ithinkyou,you'vemadeagoodpointinthatitdoesn'talwayslineupthatway.Certainly,youknow,inhavingconversationswithPenguin,I'veheard,youknow,oftimeswhereyouknow,thebookisgreatandtheauthorislovely,andeveryone'sputtheireggsinthebasket,andeveryone'sreallyinvestedanditjustdoesn'tlandinthesameway.SoIthinkthatthere'slotsofthings,there'sjustsomanyelementsatplayandIoftenthinkalotaboutNeilGaimanwho.

Hannah(Host): 06:59 [Laughs]

Vivek: 06:59 [Laughs]Ibet--

Hannah(Host): 06:59 Sorry.Justgazingintothedistance,thinkingaboutNeilGaiman.

Vivek: 07:05 IalwaythinkaboutNeilGaimancuzhegavethisreallylovelyspeechwherehetalkedabouthowmakingartislikeputtingamessageinabottle.Andhow,youknow,asanartistallyoucandoislikesortofhopethatitreachestheotherside.AndI'vehadacareerofputtingalooooooootofmessagesinabottle--



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Vivek: 07:18 --thatjustsunk.Thatjustlike,didn'tevenmakeitlike,ayard.Isthat,Idon'tknowifthat'stherightmeasurementfor,for,forwaterdistance,butyeah,anyway--

Hannah(Host): 07:34 There'sgottabesomethingmorenautical,likeanauticalmile.

Vivek: 07:37 --ButIthinklike,forme,I'malwaysjustsortoffascinatedwiththemysteryandthemagicofwhatallowsabottletoreachtheotherside.Andsomeofitisn'tmysterious.Someofitisn'tmagical.Someofit'sjustcapitalism.


Vivek: 07:54 [Laughs]Youknow?Butsomeofitisreally,youknow,butlikecapitalismattheendofthedayislikecertainlyaninsurmountable,Iwanttosay"pressure,"butmaybethat'sindelicate.Butthere'salsootherforcesatworkthere,andlikethattomeissortofwhat's,what'sreallyinteresting.So.

Hannah(Host): 08:11 Yeah,absolutely.Imeanthat's,that'sthethingaboutpublishing,right?Likeiftherewasjusta,asimpleformulathatcouldbefollowed,ifthatmadeatitleasuccess,theneverybodywouldknowexactlyhowtomakeatitleasuccess.Butitisn't,youcan'tpublishablankbookandmakeitsuccessful.It'ssomecombinationofthe,thewaythatitcirculatesandthethingitself.And,andthere'spredictableaspectsandthenthere'sjustthese,thesebeautifully,chaoticallyunpredictableaspects.AndIthinkit'sreallyinterestingtothink,youknow,aboutwhat'smadethis,thistitlehavetheimpactithastothinkaboutthat,wasitBustle?Thearticlethatsaysthetitlebestdescribesthethemoodof2018?andIdefinitelyhadareallyvisceralreactionwhenIfirstsawthecoverofthisbook.

Vivek: 09:03 Oh,wow.

Hannah(Host): 09:03 Itwasareallypowerfulmomentoflike,"oh,we'reallowedtosaythat.Oh,wow.Ididn'tknowwewereallowedtosaythat."

Vivek: 09:11 Wow.That'ssonicetohear.Yeah.Imeanit'sbeeninterestingcauseI,oneofmyfriends,FarrahKhansaidsomethingalongthesamelinesabouthowthetitlejust,shefeltlikeitwaspermissiontosaysomethingandtoownsomethingthatwe'renotreallyallowedtoarticulate.Andsoyeah,thatfeelssolovelytohear.AndIthinkforme,insomewaysit'salmost,youknow,eventhougheventhoughI'vebeensittingwiththisprojectwereforquiteawhilenow,it'sstillsortofsurprisesmetothinkbeingwhatasignificantdealitisforwomenandgender


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nonconformingpeopletoarticulatefear.Likehow,how,yeah,howimpossiblethatstillis,youknow?

Hannah(Host): 09:50 Yeah.Andthe,theexpectationofbraveryasa,sortof,likehowarewomen,andespeciallyracialized,womenexpectedtoperformthe,theimageofhavingtobeconstantlyjusta,abravelittle...Whatareyou,abravelittleengine,abravelittleteapot?


Hannah(Host): 10:08 What'sbrave?

Vivek: 10:12 [Laughs]Waterbottle?Idon'tknow.

Hannah(Host): 10:15 Abravelittle,justsomesortofbravelittleanthropomorphicthing,justjustvaliantlystrivingagainstall,allofthe,theopposingforces.Like,likethatexpectationofbravery,whichisprofoundlyexhaustinganddisproportionatelyimpactsthepeoplewhoaremostmarginalized.Thatgoeshandinhandwiththat,thatunspeakablityoffear.

Vivek: 10:38 Totally,totally.AndImeanthat'soneofthethingsI'vebeensayingthisfallwasthatlike,Iwanttothink,formethetitleandthebookcertainlyisaboutimaginingifarticulatingfearinandofitselfcouldbeaformofresilience.Like,youknow,insteadofmarginalizedbodieshavingtoperformsomekindofquoteunquote"bravery,"Canitbepossibleforustosaythatwe'reafraidandforittoberecognized,asresilienceasopposedtotheopposite.Youknow?

Hannah(Host): 11:07 Yeah,it's,it'satoaster.It'sabravelittletoaster.That'showIgotthere.Sorry,Ialmostyelled"toaster"inthemiddleofyourreallythoughtfulresponse.

Vivek: 11:17 Oh,please.

Hannah(Host): 11:17 ButthenIdidn'tbecauseI'maprofessional.That'snottrue.No.Yourthat,that,thatisabsolutelyapieceofthebookthathasstuckwithme,isnamingoffearasaformofresilience.Becauseit'squitearadicalreformationofhowwethinkaboutwhatitmeanstoberesilientandtheexpectationofresilienceissofuckingexhausting.

Vivek: 11:41 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 11:41 Butifpartofitis,isbeingallowedtobevulnerableandafraid,andaspartofthatmaybekindofofaskingtobesupportedand


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caredforthroughthatvulnerabilityandfearlikethat,that'sadifferentkindofresilience.

Vivek: 11:57 Yeah,no,totally.Andnotjustaboutitbeingallowed,butlike,recognizingthatit'sreal,right?Like,Ithinkpermissionisalmostlikethesecondstep.Like,formeit'salsojustlikeaboutacknowledgingthatfearisaveryrealpartofourlives,andthatalsotomefeelslike.Like,Iwouldliketoseethatacknowledgementasagestureinresilienceaswell,asopposedtodenyingbecauseIthinkthatsomanyofusaresortofaskedtodenythevalidityofourfeelingsandinthiscasefear.

Hannah(Host): 12:33 Yeah.CanIaskthis--

Vivek: 12:34 Askmeanything.

Hannah(Host): 12:34 It'sonlykindofasidequestion,butyourbooktitlesaresogood.I'mjustthinkingabout,I'mAfraidofMenandEvenThisPageisWhite,arelike,twoofmyfavoritebooktitlesofalltime.Like,wheredoesthetitlearriveforyouintheprocessof,ofbringingabooktogether?Becausebothoftheseseemlikeprojectsthat,thattheirtitlesaresocentraltothewaythattheymovethroughtheworld.

Vivek: 12:58 Youknow,ifyoucouldseemyfacerightnowI'mjustsmilingsobigbecause[laughs]IjustlikeItaketitlesveryseriously[laughs].

Hannah(Host): 13:03 They'resoimportant!

Vivek: 13:03 So,yeah,IreallyappreciatethatcomplimentbecauseitissomethingIthinkalotabout.Andyouknow,againtogobacktothisanalogyofmessageinabottle,likeinmyexperienceatitlecanbeabigfactorinthat,thatsortoflikeconnection.AndIthinkyourexampleoflikeseeingthebookcoverandthetitle,having,youknow,thetitlealoneconjuringthatkindofresponselikethattomesortoflikespeakstowaysthatlike,andasyou'veexperiencedwithyourbooktitle[laughs].


Vivek: 13:37 Anentrypointornotanentrypoint.

Hannah(Host): 13:37 Youknow,wechangedthetitleabouthalfwaythroughtheprocess.ThebookwasoriginallygonnabecalledRefuse:150ofCanLitFuckery.


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Vivek: 13:46 OhmyGod.

Hannah(Host): 13:48 [Laughs]Wewerecallingitthe"fuckeryproject"forlikeayear.Andthenthepresswaslike,"ourpublicitypeopledon'tlovethat."

Vivek: 13:57 Ireallythinkthatyoushoulddosomesortoflike,inJanuaryorwhenyou'relookingtodoasecondpush,maybelikewhenthebookgoesintosecondedition,youshoulddolike,fakealternativecovers,orasinglealternativecoverandbelike,"tocelebratethererelease,thisisn'tactuallythecover,butthisiswhatweoriginallyimagined,"becauseIjustthinkthatthatwouldbesuchagreatconversationpointandalsoawesome.

Hannah(Host): 14:19 Ohmygod.[Laughs].That'sagreatidea.

Vivek: 14:19 Sothere'sanideaforyou.Yeah.SoImean,toansweryourquestion,yeah.Ithinkabouttitlesalotandtheimportanceoftitles.AndIwillsaythatItendnottobesomeonewho'slikeanuntitled.Iactuallyletmebeverybrazenwithyouandsaythatlike,nothinglike,bothersmemorethanlike#untitledorwhenlike,peopledon'ttitletheirwork,oruntitledcolumns,oruntitledart.I'mlike,titlingissuchaprivilege!You'vemadethisworkandyouhad,like,it'sababy.Andit'slike,it'slikechoosingnottonameyourbaby,youknow,likeIjustdon'tunderstandwhat'shappeninghere.Butthat'smyownpersonaltwocentsabouttitlingandI,Iapologizetoyouandanylistenerswhomightbeuntitledfans,butthat's,that'sjusthowIfeel.

Hannah(Host): 15:07 I'mnotafanofuntitlingbutIamsobadattitles.

Vivek: 15:10 Iknow,Iknow.Thisisthething,likeit'snoteasy.Iwillsaythatit'snoteasy.

Hannah(Host): 15:14 It'shard!

Vivek: 15:14 Like,evencomingupwithmybandnameTooAttached,likeittookussolong.Andhavingtwopeopleandlikesiblingsliketryingtolike,decidesomething,itwasjustlike,ohmygod.Itwassopainful.ButlikethenwelandedonTooAttachedtonowI'mjustlikewhatagreatbandname.Ifeelreallygoodaboutthat.I'mgladwespentthetime[laughs].SoIthinkit'sworththeinvestment,iswhatI'msaying.Butyeah,Itendtobesomeonethathasatitleinmind,andtothepointthatsometimesthetitleactuallyinformstheproject,orbecomesasortofthemefortheproject.SoImean,I'mAfraidofMencertainlythetitlewhoisinplacebeforetheprojecthadbeen


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written.EvenThisPageisWhite,samething.IwasonTwitterandIsawsomesortoflikeawardannouncementorsomething,anditwaslikeacollageofthreewhitefacesandIwasjustlike,"ohgod!"AndIwasn'tevenlikeupfortheawardoranything,itwasjustlikeatotallydifferent,justlikerandomthingthatIsawinmyfeed.AndIendeduptextingafriendbeinglike,"youknow,IjustwanttowriteabookofpoetrycalledEvenThisPageisWhite."Anditwassortofmeantasajokeandthenitgrewintosomethingelse.Soyeah,Ithinktitlesarereallyimportant.Andthatthattitle,EvenThisPageisWhiteendedupbeinglike,oneofthefirstlinesinthefirstpoemthatIwroteforthatproject.TherehavebeentimesthoughwherelikeI'vewaffledonatitleorchangethetitle.SheoftheMountains,mynovelwasoriginallycalledBodyandBody,andalotofpeople,readersreallylikedthebook,theoriginalreaders,butalotofthemwerelike,"meh"aboutthetitle.Andagain,I'velearnedtoreallytakethatresponseseriously.

Hannah(Host): 16:38 Uhhuh.

Vivek: 16:38 Imean,sometimesyouhavetoputyourfootdownandgowiththetitleregardless,butIdotaketheresponse,earlyresponsetotitlesreallyseriouslyaswell.

Hannah(Host): 16:47 Yeah.Anditseemssoapparent,Imean,whata,whatanincrediblyobviousthing.I'mabouttosaythatthetitleinformsahugeamountofhowthebookcirculatesthroughtheworld.Right?Like,weknow,weknowthistobeabsolutelythecase.Andyousaidtome,sortof,inpassingwhenwewerechattingbackinwhatevermonthitwas.WasitNovember?WasitOctober?Whoknows.Whenwesaweachother.

Vivek: 17:12 ItwasOctober.

Hannah(Host): 17:14 Great.October.Brilliant,amazing.AndImentionedsomethingabout,youknow,peoplebeingpissedoffaboutmybookandyousaidlike,[laughing]"yeah,ItouredabookcalledEvenThisPageisWhite.I'veencounteredmakingpeopleangrywithyourbook."


Hannah(Host): 17:30 So,socouldwetalkalittlebitaboutaboutthatbookaswell,whichisalso,youknow,likeithasbecomeamodernclassicof,ofCanadianpoetry.


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Vivek: 17:41 Canyouputthatinablurborsomething?AndcanIjustlikemakeat-shirtor...that'ssonice!

Hannah(Host): 17:45 Yeah,yeah,yeah,absolutely.Absolutely.Iwill,Iwillblurbyouwhenever.Youaresignificantlymorefamousthanme,soI'mnotsurehoweffectiveitwillbe,butI'mhereforyou.Butthat,butthatsincewe'reonthetopicoflike,youknow,howbookscirculate,likeintermsofpeople'sactuallike,,listeningtowhatyouaresayinginthebooks,doyoufeellikeI'mAfraidofMenhasbeenlistenedtomorethanEvenThisPageisWhite.Likethereareafewyearsapart,doyoufeellikepeopleare,arehearingthingsmore,likethere'slessfalloutthentherewasforEvenThisPageisWhite.Oraretheyjustnotcomparableprojects?

Vivek: 18:27 Ooh,that'sareallyinterestingquestion,cuzIfeellikewhatyou'reaskingatthecoreofthatquestionis,andmaybeI'mparaphrasinghereandtotallynot,butlikewhatIhearfromthatquestionis"doyoufeellikewe'reinaculturalclimatewherepeoplearemoreresponsivetoconversationsaroundmisogynythantheyweretwoyearsago?Aboutconversationsaboutwhitesupremacy."Maybethat'snotatallwhatyou'reasking.

Hannah(Host): 18:47 ThatiswhatI'masking,andthenalsolikeasIwasformulatingthequestion,causeI'mjustmakingtheseupasIgo,Iwaslike,"maybethey'retotallyincomparable,"becausethestatusoftheconversationaboutmisogynyin2018andthestatusoftheconversationaboutstructuralracismin2015,2016islike,likemaybethosearejusttotallynon-comparableconversations.

Vivek: 19:11 Yeah.Idon'tknow.ImeanIcantellyou,wellIcantellyouacoupleofthings.IcantellyouthatI'mAfraidofMenhassoldmorecopiessinceitsreleaseinthepast,youknow,threemonths,thenEvenPageisWhitehassoldintwoyears.Again,we'vealreadysortofspokenabitaboutwhythatmightbethecase,andtheotherissuearoundthatisalsopoetry.Poetryversusasmallnonfictionessaythatyoumightbeabletofindinanairport.Right?Soit'saverydifferent,therearedifferentstructuresatworkthere.IwillsaythattheresponsetoI'mAfraidofMen,itwasn'tasbadasIthoughtitwasgoingtobeintermsoflike,negativeresponse.Imean,I'vehadmyshareofnegativeresponseandcertainlyhadtrollsandwhatnot,butlike,theresponsetoithasn'tbeenasnegativeasIthought,atleastinmyworld.ButImeanthebookisstillyoungsowhoknows--



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Vivek: 20:04 --how,howthatwillchangeinthenextyearorso.Youknow,truthfullyIthinkitfeelsaboutthesame.That'swhatI'llsay.

Hannah(Host): 20:11 Okay.

Vivek: 20:11 SamewithEvenThisPageisWhite.Like,Iwasreallyworried,therewasevenconversationswithpublishersaroundlikewith,withArsenalactually,aboutlikewhetherornotthetitlewouldalienatepeople.Ithinktouringbothbookswerehard.Itwashardwork.Bothofthemwere.

Hannah(Host): 20:25 Yeah,.

Vivek: 20:25 Likegoingintolargelyoftenwhiterooms,right?Likethethingaboutliteraryfestivalsisthey'reprimarilywhite,they'reprimarilyolder,andyougetupandyoustartreadingabookcalledI'mAfraidofMen,anditchangestheatmosphere.

Hannah(Host): 20:38 Yep.

Vivek: 20:38 AndEvenThisPageisWhite,similar,right.Like,evenifyou'redoingindiebookstoreswhocomestopoetryreadings?Whofrequents[laughs]who'sinterestedpoetry?


Vivek: 20:46 Historicallyinit'sbeenalotofwhitepeople.Soyouknow,Ithinkthediscomfortaspecthasbeensimilar.Ithinkthattherewasalotoflike,politeclappingafter.[Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 20:57 [Laughs]Uhhuh.

Vivek: 21:00 Iwill,Iprobably,there'ssomethingaboutEvenThisPageisWhitethatfeelsalmostalittledatedtomejustintermsoftheconversationsI'minterestedinhavingpersonallyasawriter.Solikethat'swhatfeelsdifferent,it'snotsomuchtheresponseoftheaudienceresponse.Butasawriter,I'mnotreallyasinvestedinhavingconversationsaboutallyshipor,youknow,there'sawholesectioninEvenThisPageisWhitecalled,“HowtoTalktoWhitePeople”andlikethat'snotaconversationthatI'mthatparticularlyinterestedin.


Vivek: 21:33 Fromanartisticstandpoint,likeforme,likemymandateisincreasingly,"howdoItalktomyownpeople?"yeah.HowdoIcentremypeopleandmyconversation?Andit'snotthatEven


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ThisPageisWhitedoesn'tdothat,butanyways,I'mgoingonatangent.

Hannah(Host): 21:45 Yeah.No,no,you'reactually,youare,youarepickingup,withanincrediblesortof,psychicpowersthethingIwasthinkingaboutaskingnext,whichisthatsenseofthe,theinevitableaudiencethatyou'llbefacingthatliteraryfestivals,atindiebookstores,likewho'sgoingtobethere?TheliterarycultureinCanada,isjustoverwhelminglywhite,overwhelminglymiddletouppermiddleclass,likeyouknow,overwhelmingly35+.Likeit'sa,it'saveryparticulardemographicthatpublishersare,areveryawareof,andknowingthatthat'swhoyou'refacingwhenyou'retouringabook,Iwasgonnaasktowhatdegreeitinformswhenyou'rewritingthebook.Likedoyoustill,doyouhavethosefutureliteraryfestivalaudiencesinyourheadwhenyouaredoingyourwork,orareyoutryingtosortofforgetthemandfocusontheaudiencesthatyouactuallywanttoreach?Orareyouthinkingaboutaudienceatall?Likeisthemessageinthebottlelike,whoeverpicksthisup?

Vivek: 22:45 Hmm.That'sreallyinteresting.Imean,Ido.I'veneverbeenaprivateartist,soI'vealways,andmaybethisisjustbeingamusician,startingoutasamusician,I'vealwayswrittensongsofthehopeoflike,sharingthemwithanaudience.


Vivek: 22:56 Andyouknow,ononelevel,likeIthinkifIsaidsomethingalongthelinesoflike,"IwritemymusictryingtoimaginethatI'monanislandwherenoonecanhear,"oh,there'ssomuchwaterinthisconversation.Anyways,I'monanislandhereandifIstillthinkit'sgood,ifnoonecanhearitthanitactuallyisgood,orsomethinglikethat.I'mtotallyparaphrasing.SoImean,ononehand,Ithinkit'sreallyimportanttostaytruetoyourmuseasawriter,andthetostaytruetoyourintentionsandyourdesiresaroundthewriting.Butsimultaneously,onceyou'remakingworkthatyou'rehelpingtoputoutintheworld,Ithinkit'salmostirresponsiblenottoconsidertheaudienceatsomepoint.


Vivek: 23:32 Idon'tthinkthatthatshouldbethecentreorthecornerstoneofthecreativeprocess,butIthinkitneedstobethereatsomepoint.Andso,youknow,forme,whatthatmeansishavingotherreaderslookatthework.Youknow,ifIwassolelyinvestedinstayingtruetomyintentionsandyouknow,whatever--


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Vivek: 23:48 --Iwouldn'tbeasinvestedingettingfeedbackfromotherwriters.AbigpartofwhyIgetfeedbackfromotherartistsisbecauseI'mtryingtounderstandiftheworkisconnecting,youknow,atsortoflikesmall,intimatelevel.AndIalsoworkthroughallofmytextsorally.SoI'mAfraidofMen.LikeIreadthatoutloudoverandoverandoveragainbecauseIfeellike,A)IknowI'mgoingtobereadingsomeofitoutloudandifIwriteitwithoralinmind,it'sjustgoingtolikelandbetterlive.


Vivek: 24:19 AndthenB),Ifindthatifyouworkthroughthetextorally,itjustgivesyouabettersenseoflike,changesyoumightneedtomakeonthepage.Yeah.Causeifitworkswellorally,ittendstoworkbetteronthepage.SothosearesomethingsthatIdointermsofthinkingaboutaudience,buttheonethingIwillsayisIdofeellikeasanartistthathastheprivilegeofperformingandyouknow,apotentialliveaudience,thatlikemyjobis,isinparttothechallenging.


Vivek: 24:54 SoImeanit'sfunnycauselikeI'mAfraidofMenwasreallyhardtolike,Ibasicallyreadthefirst10pagesliveanditwasn'teasy,butI'malsonotaneasyartist.Youknow?LikeImy,myjobisn'ttotogoonstageandbelike"everyoneholdhandsandwe'regreatandlifeiswonderful."Likeyoucangetthatfromsomebodyelse,butthat'snotwhatIdo.Sotoansweryourquestion,I'mthinkingaboutaudienceandI'mthinkingaboutconnecting,butI'malsothinkingaboutwhatworkswillalsopushaconversationsforward.WhatworkswillmakepeopleuncomfortableinwaysthatIhopewillpushtheconversationforwardorwillallowpeopletoleavethatspacewithsomethingtothinkabout,asopposedtojustchoosingthepiecesthatIthinkIwillfeelmostcomfortablereadingandaudienceswillthemfeelthemostcomfortableinthat15to20minutes.Idon'tknowifthatmakessense.

Hannah(Host): 25:56 Yeah,itabsolutelydoes.Ifindmyselfwonderinglike,toalwaysbeputtingyourselfinthatpositionlike,"hereIam,Ihaveaccesstothispublic,Ihaveaccesstothis,thisplatformorthisstageofthistimeandI'mgoingtousethattopushpeopletochallengepeople,totrytogetpeopletothinkdifferently,"seemslike,liketakingonthehardestversionofbeing,youknow,apublicintellectualandapublicartist.I'mwonderingif


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you,ifthat'salwaysbeenhowyou'vethoughtabouttheworkthatyourartneedstodo.

Vivek: 26:31 Imeannotsomuch.Imean,IthinkwhenIstartedasamusicianitwasmorelike[sings]lovesongs.

Hannah(Host): 26:40 [Laughs]Okay.

Vivek: 26:40 [sings]Yeah,everyoneissad[stopssinging].ButImean,interestinglythat's,thatwasn'tevertheworkthatcouldhaveconnected.Anditwaswritingmyfirstbook,GodLovesHair,wheresuddenlypeoplewerereallyinterestedinwhatIwassayingaroundreligion,andsexuality,andgender.AndonceIunderstoodthatthatwaswhatwasconnecting,IwascuriousiftherewereotherthingsIwantedtosaythatmusicdidn'tallowmetosaylike,talkingaboutbiphobia,liketalkingaboutwhitesupremacy.AndsoIdon'tthinkitwasalwaysthinkingaboutthat,butthinkingaboutaudiencecomfortanddiscomfort,butIthinkthemoreartIproduceandthemoreI,yeah,Icontinuetobeanartist,themoreI'malsothinkingaboutthingsliketheresponsibilityIfeeltomycommunities,youknow,asatransfemmeofcolorthatnowhasbeeninvitedintosomeofthesetypicallyinsularspacesIhaveanopportunitytosaysomethingthathopefullyinsomesmallwaycouldshiftsomeone'sperspectivearoundtranspeopleofcolorortranspeople.Andsothereisthissortoffeelingoflike,okay,wellhowamIgoingtobestusethistime?Iwillsay,youknow,thattherearetimesthatIwishthatIcouldjusttalkaboutgoats,becauseI'malsoverypassionateaboutgoats,butyeah.

Hannah(Host): 28:07 [Laughs]I'dread,I'dreadyourbookaboutgoats,justsaying.

Vivek: 28:10 Comingsoon.Youheardithere.

Hannah(Host): 28:11 Great.

Vivek: 28:11 Butyeah,soImeanit's,it'scomplicatedbecausethere'salotof,there'salotofthingsatworkhere,andsomeofitistiedverymuchtolikecommunityaccountabilityandsomeofit'salsoaboutaudienceaccountability.Likeassomeonewho,youknow,forhalfofmycareer,likeonlyfivepeoplewouldcomeouttomyshowislike,Idon'ttakeanyinterestinmyworkforgranted.Iwasn'tlikeayoungingenueat21wholike,hadmyfirst,youknow,bookpublishedbylike,apublisherandthenhadanaudience.Likethatwasn'tmystory.AndI'm,I'mthrilledthatthatcanbeotherpeople'sstories,especiallyifthat,ifthatindividualislike,youknow,marginalizedinsomeway.Butthis


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isalltosaythatlikeIdon'treallyhaveasenseofentitlementaroundconnection.Sowhenpeoplearepayingortakingthetimeouttosee,toseeme,Iwantthemtogetashow.LikeIwantthemtogetsomethingmemorable,oratleastlikeonethingthattheyfeellikethatwasworthleavingthehousefor.AndbecauselikeIhateleavingmyhouse[laughs].


Vivek: 29:08 Youknow,I'drathernotbethere.[Laughs]Yeah.Sothere,yeah,there'salotofthingsthatworkthere.

Hannah(Host): 29:13 Yeah.There,therearealotofthings.Imean,andwhat,whatcomesthroughisthatsenseoflike,thereisanauthorialpersonathatwehaveallseenatreadings.Thatis,"Iamresentfulofyou,myaudience,andthefactthatyouhavetornmeawayfrommyarttostandherebeforeyou.AndIwillmakeitasclearaspossiblethatIthinkI'mtoogoodforthis."Andthatattitude,thatsortoflike,resentfulofmyownreadersislikesomethingthatIthinkprettyobviouslyiscultivatedprimarilybywhitemen.Butthesortofideaofthatgenerositytoyouraudienceoflike,"youhavecomehere.SoIamgoingtoputonashowforyou."andwhatthatmeansisthatI'mgoingtomakeitclearthatlike,Idon'tknow,I'mgladyou'rehere.

Vivek: 29:58 Well,andImeanthinkSanararecentlytweetedaboutthistoo,butlikemypartnerandIwerehavingthisconversationabouthowunwelcomingitistogotoeventswherepeoplewillgoupandjustbelike,"ohIjustwrotethistodayandyouknow,likeIhaven'trehearsed.Andlike,yeah,like."Andsolikethere'sthislikecultureofselfdeprecationthathappensattimes,whichcanbeenduringbutsometimesalsojustfeelskindofoffputting.It'slike,wellifyoudon'treallycareenoughaboutyourworktohavelike,rehearsedatleastandreaditacoupletimestoyourselfbefore,orifyouthinkthattheworkisterrible,thenwhyamIhereandwhyareallthesepeoplehere?Right?SoI,andagain,Iemployselfdeprecationaswell,butIthinkit'slikefindingthatbalance.Andformeit'slikereallyit'sreallyabouthonoringtheaudiencebecauseIknowwhatit'slikenottohaveone.[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 30:47 Yeah,andthatcertainlycomesthroughin,in,Iknowyoutalkedaboutthisinthemost,yourmostrecentepisodeofCan'tLit,butthatideaofhavinglikeatouruniform.Likeanaestheticsensethatyoubringwithyouontouraswell,thatlikethisisaperformanceandtherewillbeacostumetoaccompanyit.

Vivek: 31:06 [Laughs]Yes.


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Hannah(Host): 31:08 Yeah.WhichIassociateyousostronglywiththatvery,sortof,powerfulaestheticsense,thatIputonlipstickbeforethisinterview,eventhoughIknewitwasgoingtobeaudioonly.

Vivek: 31:19 Oh!Thisisjustwonderful.Thankyou.IfeelveryseenandIseeyourightnow,inthismoment,eventhoughwecan'tliterallyseeeachother.

Hannah(Host): 31:27 [Laughs]SolikeIcannothelpthinkingthatthereisano,it'snotthatIcan'thelpthinkingit'sthatyouhavearticulatedveryclearlyinyourwork,theflipsidetothissenseofappreciatingyouraudience,whichisalsoanawarenessthatwhenyouarewritingworkthatisaboutyouknow,misogyny,transmisogyny,racism,homophobia,biphobia,thatthereisanextractiveelementtowhatitseemssomeaudienceswantfromyou,wantfromthiskindofwork.Andyouhaveasongaboutthistoo,"PeopleWantYourStory,"andandwanttobeabletosortofextractparticularly,narrativesof,oftraumaorhavepainandthat,thatsensethatthat'swhatlikea,likeapriceyoupayforaccessto,totheliteraryworldorapricethatwhitecisreadersfeeltheyhaveowedtothem.ItremindsmeofaconversationIhadafewepisodesagainonthispodcastwithmyfriendClaire,whowastalkingabout,youknow,beingatranswomanincisdominatedspacesandhavingasensethateveryonetherethinksthattheyareowedherstory,thattheyhavearighttooutherstorybeforetheyacceptherintothatspace.Andthatthatmostpeoplewouldimaginewhattheyaredoingtobewelcomingbecausethey'relike,"oh,tellmeallaboutyourself."Butinfactwhat'shappeningthereisasortof"paymeinyourstorybeforeIwillletyouhere."

Vivek: 32:56 Yes.Imeanit'strickybecauselikeI'malso,youknow,I'vebeenperformingsinceIwas13,andeventhoughyouknowthesongswereaboutloveandheartbreak,there'sstillalotofselfdisclosurethere.Soina,inawayI'msohabituatedtoit.LikeIdon'treallythinkalot.Ithinkforme,whenIthinkaboutentitlement,it'smorearoundexpectationslike,outsideofthisstage.Soyouknow,whenIgetmessagesfrompeoplewhoaskedmetodothings,butthere'slikeno,likeIdon'tevengetshitsandwichedanymore.


Vivek: 33:33 Backinthedayit'slike,"oh,youknow,IreallylikedthisbookofyoursandBlah,blahblah,blah,blah.Youknow,you'reawesome.I'mlookingtopublishmyownbook.Doyouhaveanyadvice?"Nowit'sjustlikeIjustgetmessagesthatarelike,"Isawyournewbook,howdidyougetpublished?".


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Vivek: 33:48 Andlike,youknow,Ihavetakenresponsivenessveryseriouslyaswell,andthisisanextensionofhowIfeltaboutthestagewherelike,andthisissomethingIhavetoworkonbecauseIactuallythinkboundariesarereallyimportant,butthere'sapartofmethatfeelslikeIoweeverybodywhomessagesmearesponse.Theycareaboutmywork.Andagain,comingfromscarcityaroundinterestinmywork,Itakeitveryseriously.AndI,andIalsofeelalotofpressureasatransfemininepersonofcolorlike,we'renotallowedtobeinaccessible.We'renotinaccessible,we'renotmysteriouswe'rebitches,youknow?AndIthinkthatappliestolikewomenatlargeinalotofways,butthenyouaddtheotheroppressionsonanditjustgetsmoreintensified.Soyouknow,andlikeitextendsallthewaytogettinglikegiginvitationswhereIstillhavetosaylike,"willtherebeanhonorarium?"AndlikethereliefIfeelwhenIgetaninvitationwherethehonorariumamountislike,mentionedintheinvitationislikethatshouldn'tbe,[laughs]thatshouldn'tbetheexception.

Hannah(Host): 34:47 Whyarewesofuckingcoyaboutit?Idon'tgetit.

Vivek: 34:50 Iwillgetmessagesconsistentlywherepeoplewillinviteme,"you'resoamazing,blahblahblah."Butlikenomentionofmoney.Andlikeagain,ifyouweretotreat,ifyouweretothinkofanartistasajob,youwouldlike,ifIweretohireaplumber,myfirstquestionwouldbelike,"what'syouravailabilityandwhat'syourfee?"Like,Iwouldbepricechecking[laughs]essentially.Butlikeit'slikethere'sjustintheinvitationforyoutodoyourwork,there'sseldomformeatleastpersonally,butIdon'tthinkI'mananomalyhere,there'sseldomamentionof--

Hannah(Host): 35:19 No.

Vivek: 35:19 --ofmoney.Andsothat'sthekindofentitlementthatIfindmoredifficultthan,thanpeoplefeelingentitledtomystoryatashow.Becauseagain,Ihavebeendisclosing[laughs]--


Vivek: 35:34 --forsolongthatIthinkImaybeimmunetoit.Andagain,likeoffstageandonstage,butifI'mdisclosing,ifI'msharing,ifI'mgoingtodothiswork,likeIsayinthesongthatyoumentioned,it'slike,"payme."Youknow?likeI'mhappytodothiswork,andI'mhappy,sometimesI'mhappytosharemystoryaswell.


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ButlikeIwantthere,Iwanttheretobearecognitionthatthisisworkandthatit'snotjustlike,alltheglamour.


Hannah(Host): 35:58 Andthethingtoo,aboutsocialmediaislike,nowwe'rejustaccessibleineveryplatform.Soit'slike,youknow,youcangetDM'donInstagram,orDM'dandonTwitter,orDM'donFacebookandyou'reexpectedtobelike,youknow,theglorydaysofpublishingwherelikeapublisherwouldhandleallthepromotionandPRandthewriterjustgottobeastar,like,thosedaysareover.

Vivek: 36:17 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 36:17 Ihadmymusicagentcontactme,andmybandisasupervisibleonInstagramandshe'slike,"youneedtogetyourFacebooknumbersupbecausepromotersarelookingatthatnumbertodeterminewhetherornottheywanttobookyou."Soit'smyjobtobeonline,butthenyougetthesemessageswherepeopleaskyouforthingstodothingswithnotalotofconsiderationforyouasahumanandthatfeelscrappy.

Hannah(Host): 36:36 Yeah,thatmakesalotofsensebecausethat,thatexpectationofbeing,atleastbeingperceivedtobevisibleandavailableallthetime,likepeoplereadthatand,andtheyconcludefromthatthatyouare,infact,justavailableallthetime.

Vivek: 36:51 WellI'mlike,surebutlike,atwhatpointdoyoustopbecominghuman?Youknow?Likethat'swhatit'slike,reallyfrustratingtome.It'slikeokayfine,youthinksomeone'savailable.Butlike,ifIweretocontactsomeonetoaskthemsomething,Iwouldatleast,bareminimum,shitsandwichthem.


Vivek: 37:05 Iwanttobeshitsandwiched!Like,shitsandwichislikeabeautifulartform.Idonot,I'mhappytoletgoofcassettetapes,butIwillnotletgooftheshitsandwich.Youknow?

Hannah(Host): 37:16 [Laughs]ThatisthemediumtowhichIamattachingmyself.

Vivek: 37:19 Exactly!

Hannah(Host): 37:19 ImeanIthinkthatthelackofshitsandwichingreallydoesgohandinhandwithasenseof,youknow,transfemininepersonofcolor,likethatsensethatemotionallaborisjustyourjob.


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Vivek: 37:32 Totally.

Hannah(Host): 37:32 Thathopefullydoingthingsforotherpeopleisjustlike,likewhyshouldsomebodyapologizeforit?Helpingotherpeopleshouldjustpourendlesslyoutofyou.Likeit's,it'sundeniablyareflectionof,ofsomethingthatpeoplearethinkingaboutwhosetimebelongstothemandwho'sdoesn't.

Vivek: 37:51 Totally.AndlikeAmberDawnandItalkaboutthisallthetime,butlikehow,soyouknow,yougetthismessage,somebodyasksyouforsomething,theydon'tshitsandwichyou,youthenfeelreallybad.You'relike,yougothroughthiswholeprocess,youtextsoneofyourfemmefriends.You'relike"Ohmygod,I'vejustbeenaskedtodothis.CanI?Like,canIsayno?Doyouthinkit'sokay?"LikeanythingIsaynotolikeactuallyIthinkalotaboutbecauseIfeelsomuchlike,guiltandIdofeelalotoflike,pressureandalotoflike,desiresometimestotolikebeabletosupportsomeoneelse.


Vivek: 38:19 Butthenyoudoallofthatworkandthenyoucomposeaveryniceemailsayingyoucan't,andthentheydon'trespondback.They'rejustlike,[dismissivenoise]

Hannah(Host): 38:27 It'slike,"wellyou'redeadtomenow."

Vivek: 38:28 You'redead!You'reDTM.Like,whynotjustbelike,"oh,thankyousomuch,"Again,noshitsandwich.Likewhynotjustbelike,"YouknowVivek,Itotallyappreciatewhereyou'recomingfrom.I'dloveforustohaveanopportunitytoworktogetherdowninthefuture,"likeIdon'tknoworjustlikeonesentence.JustlikesothatIknow,becauseyouknowtheworstpartistoo,it'snotevenjustaboutlike,formality.It'salsolikeI'msensitiveandnowIthinkthispersonhatesme.

Hannah(Host): 38:50 Yeah.OhmyGod.ThenumberofhoursI'vewastedinmylifethinkingwhohatesme.It'sjustwild.

Vivek: 38:57 Exactly.

Hannah(Host): 38:57 Iamtryingreallyhardrightnowtothinkabouthowwerespondtootherpeople'sno's,particularlyasaformoflike,modelingboundaries.Becauseyouknow,thefemmesinmylifeforteachingmeabouttheimportanceofboundaries.AndsoparticularlywhenIhaveaskedayoungwomantodosomething,youknow,forexample,asagraduatestudent,ifthey'llcome


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andguestlectureinmyclassorsomethinglikethatandtheysay"no,"Imakeapointofresponding,notjust"absolutelynotaproblem,"butrespondinglike,"wow,whatanamazingjobyoujustdidofclearlyarticulatingtheboundary.I'msuperproudofyou.That'sreallyhardtodo."

Vivek: 39:34 Wow.Wow.That'sgreat.I'mgoingto,I'mgoingtokeepthatinmind.Yeah.Wow.

Hannah(Host): 39:38 Positivereinforcementofboundarydryandlikewhendoweevergetthat,right?

Vivek: 39:43 IthinklikeanAmberDawnalsostartedlike,ahashtagcalled#FemmesSayNothemandI'mjustlike,yeah,it's,it'sreallyimportant.

Hannah(Host): 39:49 It'sso,it'ssoimportant.Butyeah,ongoing,honorabletraditionoftheshitsandwich,whichactuallysortoftheotherthingIwantedto,totouchonwhilewewerechattingisIwouldreallylovetohearhowyourfirstyearofteachingwent.I'mspeakingofofworldsinwhichashitsandwichisstillveryimportantbecauseliterally,howelsedoyougivestudentsfeedbackontheiressays?

Vivek: 40:13 OhmyGod.OhmyGod.ImeanIfeellike,reallybad.IactuallyfeelreallyguiltybecauseIfeellikeI'mjustaskingfortrouble.

Hannah(Host): 40:22 Uhoh.

Vivek: 40:22 Butlike,I,honestly,Ihavereallylovedit.TeachingisjustsuchanaturalextensionofwhatI'vebeendoingforthepast--

Hannah(Host): 40:30 Ohyeah.

Vivek: 40:30 --howevermanyyearsbecausethereissomethingveryperformativeaboutit.Andit,youliterallyhave70people,orhowevermanypeopleandyou'relike,"howamIgoingtoholdyourattentionforonehour,twohour,threehours?"Right?Likeit'sasimilarsortofequationasbeingaperformerandinthinkingaboutlikehowtodesignaclassinawaythatfeelsquoteunquote"entertaining"inaway.


Vivek: 40:50 Tomeit'sfeltlikeverynatural.It'sverychallengingandI'malwayssecondguessingmyself.IalwaysthinkI'mtheworstteacher.I'malwaysthinkingI'mnotdoingenough.There'slike,I


20

thinkoneofthehardestthingsaboutbeinginacademiaislike,Idon'treallyfeellikeanacademic.

Hannah(Host): 41:06 [Wrylaugh].

Vivek: 41:06 Sothere'sthisconstantfeelingoflikebeinganinterloper,andyou'reconstantlyremindedofthatwhenpeople,academicsalwaysliketheirfirstquestionis,"what'syourresearchin?"Andyou'rejustlike,"Imakecrafts."


Vivek: 41:17 Likethat'showitfeels.

Hannah(Host): 41:17 Feelings?Iresearchfeelings.

Vivek: 41:21 That'showIfeel,right?I'mlike,yeah,"Itookphotosofmyselfdresseduplikemymom."Like,Idon'tknow.Youknow?Sothatstufffeelshard.Butlikeagain,liketheclassitselffeelsreallyhealingandalotofways,liketheclassroomformehashistoricallybeenasiteoftrauma,andtohavelike70studentscallme"MissShraya,"usemypronouns,youknow,feelslikeafuturethatIneverreallythoughtIwouldgettolive.Soforthemostpart,Ifeelreally,reallygrateful.IalsoreallyloveCalgary.Like,yeah,Idunno.It'sjustbeen,it'sbeenlovely.It'shard.Teachingishard.Ispendlikehoursagonizingoverlike,evaluationmethods,butlikeoverallteachinghasjustfeltlikesuchagiftandIfeellikeIwonthelottery.

Hannah(Host): 42:07 Oh,that'swonderful.I,Iloveteachingsomuch.ItismyfavoritepartofmyjobandIjustfeellikeIdon'tunderstandpeoplewhodon'tlikeit.It'ssoincredible.Likeit'ssucha,it'ssuchajoyandit'ssuchaprivilegetogettojustbeinthatspace.

Vivek: 42:23 Doyoufeelcornysayingthat?Becausethat'showIfeel.I'mlike,it'ssuchajoyandsuchaprivilege,butIfeellikeassoonasyousaythatpeopletuneout.Like,Ifeellikepeoplewouldratherhearmesay,"Ohmygod,itwasreallyhard.Ihateit.Andbelike,"Ithinkit'samazingandthestudentsarethefuture."

Hannah(Host): 42:39 Yeah.Ithinkthatyou'reright.Ithinkthatthere'sahugecultureofnegativity.Ialsothinkthatthere'sreallyimportantworkbeingdonearoundhowwetalkaboutteachinginpostsecondaryeducation.It'steachinghasbeenhistoricallypositionedasthepricethatyoupayforgettingtodoyourresearch.Andthewaythat,like,youknow,teachinghasbeendisproportionatelyperformedbywomenintheuniversity,the


21

samewaythatserviceis,andsolikingteachingisverygendered.Andsohavinganemotionalreactiontoteachingisdismissedbecauseitisfeminized,asopposedtoshamingyourstudents,makingfunofhowstupidtheyare,youknow,talkingabouthowkidsthesedays,blah,blah,blah,likethatasamorevalorizedpositionbecauseitisassociatedwithlike,youknow,the,themasculinepositionoftheprofessor,forwhomteachingisbeneaththem.SoIactuallyreally,Ithinkthatit'sreallyimportanttotalkaboutlovingteaching,andlovingyourstudents,andfeelingprivilegedtobetherebecauseitpushesbackagainstthatbullshitcultureoflike,"yeah,yeah,yeah.Imean,obviouslythisinstitutionexistsexclusivelybecauseofthem,butlike,wecanallagreethatwe'rebetterthanthem.Right?"Like,that'sbullshit.

Vivek: 43:58 [Laughsthengroansknowingly]Yeah.HowlonghaveyoubeenattheSFU?It'sSFU,right?

Hannah(Host): 44:03 It'sSFU.I'vebeenherefor,thisismythirdyear,soI'mhalfwaythroughmythirdyear.

Vivek: 44:09 Ohwow.

Hannah(Host): 44:09 IwasatUofAforthreeyearsbeforethat.

Vivek: 44:12 Ohwow.

Hannah(Host): 44:12 SoI'vebeenteaching,yeah,like,I'vebeenteachingforsixorsevenyearsnowandI,Ijustlikeitmoreandmoreallthetime.Likethe,theuncertaintiesfades.LikeI'vealwayslikedit,buthaveoftenbeeninclassroomsandbeenlike,"Ohwow,Ididn'tplanthiscorrectly.Oops.".


Hannah(Host): 44:34 Andsolikeasit'salsosomethingthatIfeellikeI've,I'vegainedmoreconfidenceinmyskillsetarounditandcometounderstandthatit'slike,actuallyaskillset,actuallyathingthatyoucangetbetteratdoing.Ijustlikeitmoreandmore.

Vivek: 44:47 That'ssolovely.That'ssolovely.AndImean,Ihavetosaythatyou'vedefinitelyinspiredmepedagogically.IthinkIsawsomeonetweet,ormaybeyoutweetedsomethingabouthow,wasitthatyoupassedouteverysyllab,syllabi?

Hannah(Host): 44:59 Sothiswas,yeah,thiswas,ohmygod,it'ssowild.SoEmilyHoven,pastguestofthepodcastandaformerstudentofmine,


22

tweetedaboutthefactthatintheclassthatItaughtherattheUofA,Ihandedoutthesyllabitoeachstudentastheycameinandintroducedmyself,andthenshetalkedabouthow,youknow,howthatmadeherfeelasastudent,howitmadeherfeelveryseen,andmadeherfeelliketheclassroomisgoingtobeacommunity.Thathadbeenrecommendedtomebyateachingmentor,andIdiditthatsemesteranditfelt,atthemomentsosilly,thatIdidn'tdoitagainforyears.

Vivek: 45:38 Oh,wow.

Hannah(Host): 45:39 Yeah.Iwaslike,itfeltlike,thewholepointisthatyouaresteppingdownfromthatsortof,youknow,youknow,whatyou'resupposedtodoasaprofessoratthebeginningoftheclass.

Vivek: 45:48 Ofcourse.

Hannah(Host): 45:48 Youstandatthefrontoftheroomandyoushuffleimportantlythroughyourpapers.Andsoitfelt,Ifeltsovulnerableandsillydoingit.AndthenitwasactuallyhearingfromEmilyonTwitterwhatastrikingmomentthatwasforher.Iwaslike,"oh,okay,wellIguessI'llgobacktodoingthat."

Vivek: 46:09 That'sgreat.Yeah.Imean,afterIreadthat,Itriedtoemploysomethingsimilarbutlikebasically,likeIfindevaluation,Imean,asIhavesaid,IfoundevaluationofstudentssocomplicatedAndlike,itreally,reallyhitstothecoreofalotofmyissuespersonally,justintermsoflikewhatdoesitmeantoevaluateanotherhumanandlike,what,whatarethelike,sortofethicsofdoingthatandlike,thepowerdynamics.Andforme,IreallytrytoblurthoselinesasmuchasIcan,assomeonewhoworksforanadministrationwhereevaluationisnecessary.


Vivek: 46:45 Inmyclassroom,andsoforboththemidtermandthefinal,andIhad70students,Ilike,actuallyhandedeveryexam.Like,youknowhowalotofteachers,it'slike,"takeoneandpassiton."IactuallyhandedeachoneindividuallytoeverystudentandIactuallywishedthemgoodluck.

Hannah(Host): 46:58 Aw!

Vivek: 46:58 Basicallythesamethingtoeverystudent.ButIlikeliterallylike,cheerleaderedthem.


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Vivek: 47:03 Andlikethattomeetbelts.It'ssoawkward,right?Likeit'saveryawkwardthingtodo.

Hannah(Host): 47:08 [Exhales]It'ssoawkward.

Vivek: 47:08 Andtheyfeelweirdedouttoo,orImean,theydon'texpectit.Likeit'sreallyaboutlike,pullingdownthat,thatwall.ButitfeltsonecessarytomeasateachertoshowthemthatI'montheirside.Like,ofcoursethereisapowerstructureandyes,myjobistomarkyouandtoevaluateyou,butIhavenodesireinridingonthispowerorbeingapunitiveteacher,asteachersIhaveexperiencedtodosortofgetoffonthat,sortof,"I'mgoingtogradeyounowandmakegiantredX's."Likethat'snotthegameI'mplaying.Andsoformebeingabletolikewalktoeverystudentandwishthemgoodluckwasaboutlike,affirmingthemrightbeforetheygointothat,sortof,placeofwritingtheexamislike,thepersonwho'smarkingthisisonyoursidebecauseIcanbe.Andthatwasinspiredbyyou.

Hannah(Host): 47:58 Ohthat'sreallylovely.Ithink,asyou'retalkingaboutlike,likewhatapunitivespacetheclassroomcanbe,IkeptthinkingaboutajokeIwasmakingalotlastsemesteraboutmyteachingphilosophyessentially,isapedagogyofnontrauma.Liketheuniversityissuchaprofoundlytraumatizingspaceforsomanystudentsthatif,ifthegoalthatIsetupisjust,I'mjustgonnadomybesttonotcontributetothetraumaofyouruniversityexperienceinanyway.Likethereyougo.That'sgoingtobemygoal.Iwon'talwaysreachitbecauseweareallsituatedinthisinstitution,butlike,oh,I'mgoingtotrymybestnottoharmyou.

Vivek: 48:39 Yes,yes.Beautiful,beautifulbaseline.[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 48:44 Andyouknow,oneofthewaysthatyouavoidharmingstudents:shitsandwich.

Vivek: 48:52 [Laughs]Oh,youknow,Idon'tknowwhatitisaboutmeandshit,butlikeIjustkeepthinkingaboutyourconversationsaroundlike,audienceandEvenThisPageisWhite,andIrememberthatlike,soIusuallytreatreadingsaslikeaset.AndthisismysetlistthatI'mdoingessentiallyforeverylike,dayonatour.AndIsortofsticktoitbecauseitreallyhelpsmegetintothezone,kindoflikeatouruniforms,aswell.Andsofirstofalllike,someonereadsthebiowhentheysayyour,yourbooktitle,


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andsolikepeopleawkwardlylaughintheaudience,"EvenThisPageisWhite!Hahaha".


Vivek: 49:27 Andthenyou'dgetupandlike,youknow,you'vealreadysetupapowerdynamicwhenthathappens.Right?Likepeopleostensiblyfeelsomething.AndthenIrememberthefirstpoeminmyset,whichisalsothefirstpoeminthebook,therewaslikealineaboutcumandIsaidlike"ifmy,mycumwasbrown,wouldyoustilleatit?"And[laughs]IcanjustrememberdoingthisattheOttawaWriter'sFestival[laughs].


Vivek: 49:52 Andlikeoneofmygayfriendswasintheaudienceandhe'slike,afterthereadinghewaslike,"youknow,Ijusthavetogiveyoupropsforreadingthatpoeminthatroom."[Laughs]


Vivek: 50:04 AgainthestoryandIfeellikeI'mbeatingadeadhorse,butIjustlikekeepthinkingaboutthatparticular,Iwaslike,whichbookwashardertotour?Idon'tknow.WhydidImakethatchoice?

Hannah(Host): 50:15 [Laughs]WhydoIreadthislineinthisspace?Like,Idon'tknow.

Vivek: 50:18 Thethingis,Iguessthat's,IguessthepointthatIwastryingtomakehere,rightnow,isjustthatI'mneveronetolikeruntothesafechoice.Ifanythingitlike,"hmm,what'sgoingtomakemethemostuncomfortableandchallengemethemostasaperformer?"Because,youknow,IhopethatIhavetheprivilegeofdoingthisfortherestofmylife.AndIalsohopethatIhavetheprivilegeofanaudienceforalotofthat,ifnotallofthat.Andyouknow,IthinktheonlywayformetosustainthispracticeisbyensuringthatI'malwaysfeelingchallengedbytheworkitselfandtheworkthatIfeelIneedtodo.[Music:"I'mAfraidofMen"byTooAttachedfeaturingPeaches].

Hannah(Host): 50:59 You'dliketolearnmoreaboutVivek,youcanfindheratvivekshraya.com.That'sVIVEKSHRAY.com.andshe's@vivekshrayaonTwitterandInstagram.YoushoulddefinitelybefollowingheronInstagram.YoucanfindshownotesaswellasalloftheepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpcgregorandyoucantweetaboutthepodcastusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Andyoucanreviewtheshow.


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Therearenewreviewsfrom,don'tknowhowtosaythis,Sermayad?Chermayed?AndHipsAhoy.Sothankstobothofthemforthekindreviews.Thepodcast'sthemesongis"MeshShirt"byMomJeansofftheiralbum,ChubRub.Youcandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Vivek'sthemesongwas"I'mAfraidofMen"byTooAttachedfeaturingPeaches.YoushouldlistentoandbuyallofTooAttached'smusic.That'sanorder.It'sthelawnow.SecretFeministAgendaisrecordedonthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhfirstnationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[Music:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]