8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
1/30
Lets Talk Bitcoin - Episode49 DisruptivePeople
Participants:
Adam B. Levine (ABL) - Host
Amir Taaki (AT) - Guest libbitcoin developer
Elizabeth Ploshay (EP) - Guest Bitcoin Foundation Board
Member
Nathanial Castro (NC) - Guest Openalcohol.org founder
ABL: Hi, and welcome to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin for
October 11, 2013. Visit us at letstalkbitcoin.com for our daily guest
blog, all our past episodes and of course, tipping address. My
name is Adam B. Levine and today, its all about people. Amir
Taaki is a name that you should already know, but chances are
good many of you dont. Bitcoin is different things to different
people but to Amir its an actionable chance to change the worldfor betterment of mankind. Amir is a full time developer on Bitcoin
projects, and recently completed an ambitious reimplementation of
the Bitcoin protocol called libbitcoin, to be more lightweight, clean,
and modular. We end todays show with what he calls the libbitcoin
manifesto, and if youre interested in powerful perspectives its not
to be missed.
The day before the cryptocurrency conference I caught up withElizabeth Ploshay, the recently elected member of the Bitcoin
Foundation Board, We talked about the journey and her priorities,
we talk about Bitcoin in the Middle East, and where the next
generation of adopters will come from.
But first - Nathanial Castro has a dream, and hes not the only one.
He dreams of a future where we farm our fuel, and have money
backed and redeemable in it. Nathanial paints the vision and its an
appealing one, if we can only get from here to there. Anybody
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
2/30
wanna come along?
Enjoy the show.
ABL: [0.1.35] So, were joined this morning by Nathanial Castro.
Nathanial, you and I have been talking about Bitcoin for the last
couple of months, but you actually have an interesting project that
goes beyond Bitcoin.
NC: [0.1.45] Yeah, so I guess how I wound up finding Bitcoin
initially is sort of a long story, it involves something thats not
exactly Bitcoin-related but actually has some parallels. Several
years back I sort of went down the rabbit hole of how the world
works, how things work, how money works, how economy works,
and came to some conclusions regarding fiat currencys, and peak
oil issues, and these kind of things, and that was that we were
totally screwed.
Going down the fuel avenue of oil, and oil economy, and these
things, I realized that energy is wealth, and the ability to control
energy is wealth, and in third world countries where they canthave lights thats poverty.
I got really depressed coming against the oil shortages, commodity
shortages, and a currency that literally cant hold water, so you
know, I just stared poking around and trying to figure things out,
trying to decide what to do, I started researching local currencies a
lot and local currency schemes for hours and this kind of stuff. I
came across a guy who wrote a book called Alcohol Can Be A
Gas his names David Blume and Id heard some interviews with
him, basically when I had come across the biofuels avenue of, you
know - and when I talk about it, I--
ABL: [0.3.19] Lets back up a second, here. Im not sure that
everybody really appreciates, because you know peak oil is a term
that gets thrown around but I think there are a few different
definitions of it. Peak oil is not to say that not - correct me if Im
wrong, here - peak oil is not to say that were out.
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
3/30
NC: [0.3.34] Absolutely not.
ABL: [0.3.35] It's just that weve hit the peak of production and yet,
based on global growth, that doesnt work: the math doesnt work
any more in the same way that it used to.
NC: [0.3.45] Right, it becomes harder to get, and more expensive,
and more scarce.
ABL: [0.3.47] You think - do you think were at that point, or
approaching that point, or were past that point?
NC: [0.3.52] I dont know. You know, there are arguments both
ways. To be honest, I dont really care, and quite frankly, I dont
even care so much about the peak oil issue: I just dont like putting
gas in my car. I dont like extracting something from the ground
that spits carbon monoxide into the air. I would rather put
something thats carbon neutral and semi-locally produced at least
domestically, in my car. I dont like being forced to do anything, so
you know, I wanna use ethanol and I wanna use Bitcoin.
ABL: [0.4.21] So to a certain extent it sounds like you agree withthe government who also likes ethanol and likes to incentivize
ethanol.
NC: [0.4.35] Yes and no. Our current ethanol infrastructure is
larger scale industrial: its not necessarily what David Blume or this
book or I would necessarily advocate which is more appropriate
scale - more small farm.
ABL: [0.4.53] Can you tell me about what hes advocating?
NC: [0.4.55] Hes advocating an appropriate scale the history of
ethanol and alcohol in this country is fascinating, and to anyone, I
would encourage them to get the book or at least dig up some
David Blume lectures and understand a little bit about the history
of alcohol in this country. You know, the first car, the model T both
ran on ethanol as well as gasoline, and you could fill it up with gas
in the city and then go out to country and fill it up with ethanolwhich is alcohol, which is basically moonshine and each farm in
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
4/30
the country had a still. It wasnt until prohibition that that changed
and it became illegal, but in my opinion, it should be something
that everyone understands; that you can produce fuel, that you can
run moonshine in your car right now. That was something I didnt
understand, and when I went down this road and I sort of cameacross ethanol, I saw headlines that everyone sees, that it's
energy-negative, that it takes more petrol to make ethanol than
you get energy out of it.
ABL: [0.5.55] So was that not true broadly speaking?
NC: [0.5.57] Thats not true. It's largely based off of one guy's
study: this guy David Pimentel, who was actually funded by I think
Exxon.
ABL: [0.6.07] So a little bit of a conflict?
NC: [0.6.09] Yeah, its a little bit of a conflict, and its also, you
know - his numbers are based off of things like 1940s whisky
distilleries. When it comes to the ethanol production, efficiency is
extremely important. So, when you take, like, Brazil, who largely
produces most of their fuel from sugarcane ethanol. So theres thatwhole side of it is a whole long conversation to me and I would
really defer most of that to David Blume and his book because hes
the professional and Im just the student, but its fascinating,
absolutely fascinating, and it falls in line, I think, with some of the
ideologies of cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. That is: you guys had
your chance, were gonna do it our way now, and were gonna do it
a different way, and we can do it ourselves.
ABL: [0.6.52] One of the other differences and also similarities, it
seems like, is that if you have an unlimited resource that is only
geographically in some parts of the world and is certainly more
accessible in some parts of the world where it is there than others,
thats contrary to, say, something that is produced from a crop;
from a grown thing, and moonshine is not even really fuel-specific:
you can make it out of sugarcane, you can also make it out of
potatoes
NC: [0.7.20] You can make it out of a ton of different food sources.
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
5/30
ABL: [0.7.23] OK, so to a certain extent, an alcohol-based fuel
system is a more decentralized system.
NC: [0.7.29] Absolutely. One aspect of it that I think is interesting:from a theoretical perspective, Im sure there are plenty of
arguments that can be made for this, and that, and what not, but
from theoretical perspective, like I said, energy is wealth, and what
alcohol is is liquid solar energy. It is basically that sunshine comes
down, combined with carbon dioxide in the photosynthesis
process, and creates carbohydrates, the yeast eat the
carbohydrates, convert it to alcohol with the carbon dioxide, and
what you have left is alcohol. -So, when you distil out the alcohol,
what you have left in your mash is everything that was already
there; the proteins, the fats, the nutrients, the minerals: the only
thing youre extracting is the alcohol, which is liquid sunshine. -So
now, if energy is wealth and alcohol is liquid sunshine, were being
rained wealth on every day, and it's just a matter of harvesting it,
and thats what farmers do and thats what youre doing when
youre using the photosynthesis process to collect that energy.
ABL: [0.8.29] -So now, I also heard this argument made aboutsolar, but it seems like this is a little bit different than solar in a
couple of ways.
NC: [0.8.37] Yeah, youre probably talking about the photovoltaic
sort of aspect of solar.
ABL: [0.8.40] Yeah, I am - yes. I mean the electric generation.
NC: [0.8.43] Yeah, that has all sorts of problems.
ABL: [0.8.46] One of the main problems it has is that the places
that you generate solar energy for photovoltaic generally isnt
where you need to use it and theres a loss over transmission, and
thats not really the case with the liquid fuel source: the fuel source
is very transportable.
NC: [0.9.01] Yeah, its fungible. They used whiskey as currencyback in the day and theres a great book: it's fiction it's called The
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
6/30
Whiskey Rebellion - but its based off of historical fiction, and that
is a big plot line - is them paying their rent in whiskey and that
kinda stuff. -So whiskey as a currency and alcohol as a currency
was kind of a running theme as I was doing all this research, so
when I came across this, I said, I wanna do that. I dont have afarm. This is generally something that would appeal to someone
who maybe has a farm, but I wanted to do it anyway. -And I figured
I dont wanna work out the bugs, I don't wanna work out kinks, and
I just dove right in, and I ran into two major obstacles: capital and
you can get a permit to distil five thousand gallons for fuel
purposes for free, so free permits really easy to get, and so I
figured Okay, thats a good number, Ill shoot for that; Im gonna
try do a five thousand gallon aim, or sort of distillation set up, but
you know, thinking about it, if I wanted to scale theres a
distribution issue as well. Basically, in what David Blume proposes,
is community-supported energy, like a community-supported
agriculture you basically pay your subscription at the beginning of
the year and youre allowed a certain amount of gallons throughout
the year, and so it would be done as a collective. But you know, to
scale it up, it gets bigger and so I started kinda thinking about
well, what about several and how could you connect them and
build a network, and exchange in between them? -And I started tothink of having a currency that would be backed by this locally
produced ethanol, and so in effect, what you would do by
subscribing to [at the beginning of the year], would be essentially
purchasing these credits that would then be exchanged as a local
currency.
ABL: [0.10.59] OK, so lets say that we have one of these
communities supporting fuel, is that what you call it?
NC: [0.11.03] Community-supported energy.
ABL: [0.11.06] Energy, yes - CSE. You subscribe to that, I dont
subscribe to that, so youre saying that once you'be subscribe to
that and you have your set amount of credits for the year, you
could sell some of those to me, and I could then be able to redeem
them or also use it as a currency myself in the same way that you
do?
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
7/30
NC: [0.11.23] Right, well - and the part of it is - as well - is that
you're producing fuel, but like I said, after you distil the alcohol you
have this mash left and that is a huge nutrient source, there are
many things that can be done agriculturally from that, you know:
grow mushrooms, feed it to fish, grow vegetables, and all theseother things, so it works in conjunction with the local farms; so
youre producing fuel and youre producing food and so, say if
youre building this distillation facility and you need some welding
work done. Well, the welder Im not a welder, but I can find
someone who can weld and can be paid in these credits which can
then, in turn, be redeemed to purchase fuel, or vegetables, or
mushrooms, or you know... Im a big fan of local economies and
local currencies and they add farmer value to a local economy
then the national currency would. -So this was the idea I was
coming up with, and this also, in turn, raises the capital to build the
facility.
ABL: [0.12.22] Right, its essentially, you know - its like a CSE pre-
ordering sort of...-
NC: [0.12.25] Yeah, its essentially crowd funding: its a kick-starter
on a local level for a very specific reason. -So yeah, that was mybright idea and Im like Okay, I wanna figure this out, I wanna
design this currency, I wanna because this was a problem I ran
into. I dont have the funds to do this, its kind of an obscure
business model I dont know if I can borrow the money for it, but I
wanna see it done and I wanna see it be done to be replicable and
scalable, and so I wanted Im big on design, another aspect of
this whole ideology is the concept of permaculture. I dont know if
youre familiar with permaculture...?
ABL: [0.12.58] I am - a small amount, but why dont we recap just
for the audience?
NC: [0.13.01] Well, permaculture is a method of designing
agricultural landscapes to be permanent, like a forest or
something. The way nature designs things, it doesnt design
anything with waste. You know, there are no carbon monoxide
spitting in the air.
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
8/30
ABL: [0.13.18] Well, I mean - let's dig into that a little bit. I live in a
forest, right, so there are lots of trees in the forest. The trees have
leaves, the leaves fall to the ground. Some people would
characterize the leaves falling to the ground as waste because
they are no longer being used by the tree, so how does that tie inwith permaculture?
NC: [0.13.35] Oh well, the leaves break down into soil, which in
turn feeds the plants. I mean, everything in the Amazon forest-
ABL: [0.13.42] So were talking about the cycle of things?
NC: [0.13.43] The cycle of things, yeah, and the stacking of
functions. [I] probably couldnt give the best examples right now,
but there [is] the concept of things serving multiple purposes.
ABL: [0.13.52] So its almost like a systems-based approach to the
growth cycle, as opposed to the monoculture that, a lot of times,
you see used.
NC: [0.14.01] Exactly.
ABL: [0.14.02] Right, so instead of them being one type of thing
like fields of wheat - instead you have various things that are all
synergistically interact with each other?
NC: [0.14.11] Right, polyculture, annuals, perennials all working
together. I mean, its an observational design system, yeah. I
recommend anyone also to look into permaculture as an
alternative to our current monoculture nightmare. You know, like I
said, the fuel food and our currency issues were these glaring
problems in society in my opinion, and you know, monoculture,
and peak oil, and fiat currency.
ABL: [0.14.39] So, just again real quick - I dont mean to keep you,
but were covering a lot of concept here and I wanna make sure
that were keeping people with us. Why is a monoculture bad in
agriculture?
NC: [0.14.49] Several reasons: one of them is monoculture
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
9/30
basically opens up to pest problems. You know, if a potato bug
sees a field of potatoes, its just open season. [In] polyculture, you
have several different types of crops, its not as easy pickings for
one insect to come in.
ABL: [0.15.13] One type of insect can come in and infest the entire
thing as opposed to only being able to affect a smaller portion of
it?
NC: [0.15.19] Right, and you see certain aberrations starting to
arise with, you know - youve got Monsanto and the round up stuff
and occasionally you see some I dont know if this entirely true
actually, but you see resistances to certain pesticides.
ABL: [0.15.36] Well, you do see evolutionary trades evolve over
time. It makes sense, you know.
NC: [0.15.41] So that, as well as a lot of the ammonia-based
fertilizers, which are petroleum-based fertilizers, so if peak oil is an
issue, thats an issue. So yeah, the monocultural agriculture
process versus a permaculture polycultural process are polar
opposites.
ABL: [0.15.59] Right. OK, I got you there, great. We can get back
to the story.
NC: [0.16.04] OK, so permaculture also incorporates theres a
permaculture economic model which is looking at economics from
a local scale, and I like to say stacking functions from a currency
perspective, so designing this local currency that would fund the
building of the facility as well as add value to the community, you
know - serves multiple purposes in my opinion. -So from a
permaculture perspective, thats kind of how I was looking at it. -So
I have a bit of a technical background and I know software and
hardware but I didnt want to get into this and have to man these
servers and deal with basically a centralized system that I would
have to babysit and maintain and all these things. Im a musician,
and I remember coming across Napster for the first time andsaying you know, the music industry is really gonna get hit with
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
10/30
this one, and seeing it all unfold and understanding really the
power of decentralization and that you cant shut it down. -And so,
I was looking for a decentralized open source digital currency, you
know, I figured someone had to be... There were several things
that I had found already: other software projects, other digitalcurrency concepts that people were playing around with, and I
figured someone had to be working on some kind of open source,
decentralized version, and so thats what I googled and thats how
I found Bitcoin. -And it was early stages, but because I had done
so much research on local currencies and alternative currencies, it
just blew me away. -So I kinda lost myself in the Bitcoin thing for a
while because Bitcoin is so huge, and prior to finding Bitcoin, trying
to design a currency that would add and give value to us was prior
to Bitcoin. -So when I discovered Bitcoin, then it was all post-
Bitcoin: Bitcoin solved all these problems without having to back it
with ethanol: it's inherently valuable as it is, so that was just
fascinating. It was fascinating but it didnt solve the problem that I
was trying to solve, which was issuing a currency that would be
backed that would be centralized. -So I kinda set that project
aside; the whole ethanol thing - and I chipped away at it and what
not, but it wasnt until the conference, the San Jose conference,
where I kinda realized that with the colored coins, and Ripple, andOpen Transactions, I bumped into a fellow traveller there and the
Color Coins actually facilitates that was more to the extent I was
looking for. It solves the problem that I was looking for, and prior to
going to the conference, I didnt really understand Ripple. I wasnt
sure what they were trying to accomplish, what was going on, but
after I talked to the guys, I realized thats exactly what theyre
doing - is making a way to issue a currency that would be backed
by - I think they call it Gateways, but its essentially a trusted
third party. -So youve got Color Coins, which are a decentralized
asset-backed currency that kind of lives on the blockchain, and
youve got Ripple, which is a more centralized version, and then
youve got Open Transactions, which is a federated version, but
youve got these different attempts at solving this problem. -So I
decided to pick it back up and at least work on the designing of
that aspect of it, you know, its a large complicated project.
ABL: [0.19.43] Okay, so does that bring us up to the present?
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
11/30
NC: [0.19.45] That brings us up to the present.
ABL: [0.19.47] Okay, so whats next?
NC: [0.19.49] Well, that I dont know. To be honest, there are a fewthings that I was kinda waiting for to come through. David Blume
has his distillation company and so he has clients that are
purchasing distillation facilities from him, you know, possibly
proposing some of these ideas to him, and theres also this
enzyme Im trying to get a hold of to make it easier and less
expensive: it combines the fermentation with the scarification
process. Thats another thing - and also, Im not a programmer, so
when it comes to actually making some of the Color Coin stuff
work, I kinda just have to wait for it to evolve.
ABL: [0.20.29] -So when youre talking about Color Coins, could
this be implemented through an alternative cryptocurrency?
NC: [0.20.36] Like an alternative blockchain?
ABL: [0.20.38] Yeah like an alternative blockchain.
NC: [0.20.39] Initially, I thought about that when I first -- thats why
I was looking for an open source version, because I was possibly
going to use it and design it. Im not the biggest fan of alternative
blockchains simply because of the hashrate issue.
ABL: [0.20.56] So the hashrate, though, is tied to issuings,
basically. Its tied to issuings, it's tied to security - there are a few
other things that it's tied to, but it seems like what you are talking
about is almost like your proof-of-work can only be done by a
certain type of person with a certain type of asset; property,
essentially - who is able and has the equipment or at least part of
that process to make it. -So to a certain extent, its almost like the
issuings doesnt come from the blockchain, it comes from real life,
and then needs to be translated into the blockchain.
NC: [0.21.26] Right, yeah, exactly.
ABL: [0.21.28] Then theres like a redemption mechanism that you
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
12/30
have to develop where they can trade on their own, but at some
point, at any point, somebody can take one or many of these and
redeem them for the actual fuel.
NC: [0.21.41] And thats where youre right in that sense thatsecurity is not as paramount because its hard to make it: youre
dealing with a third party, its kinda hard to fraud the system.
Essentiall,y if youre using Color Coins and it's like if you have a
coupon or a credit card, anyone can see your credit card number -
if they want to steal from you, they can. I mean, you can leave the
private key exposed... I dont know - I havent quite figured out
exactly how to do it or how to propose it.
ABL: [0.22.12] So youre still definitely thinking this one out?
NC: [0.22.14] Yeah, Im still thinking it out, which is why Ive stayed
really quiet about this - because I havent quite figured it out.
ABL: [0.22.21] I think its a really interesting idea. I think that it
actually sounds pretty actionable too but you know what I mean,
thats fairly plausible we hear about all coin concepts and different
Color Coin concepts occasionally.
NC: [0.22.31] Yeah, well, in this, its definitely a bit of a departure
from the Bitcoin world which is very blockchain focused, you know,
or Bitcoin focused.
ABL: [0.22.40] Well, weve been talking about this global-local
thing that cryptocurrencies enable. Bitcoin certainly is something,
but Bitcoin ,for the purposes youre talking about, focuses more on
local because it's all about developing and enabling relationships
between producers and consumers, and the ability to trade is
really almost secondary to that because the only relationship is
between the producer and the consumer. It just depends on who
the consumers winds up being... you trade who that is.
NC: [0.23.05] Exactly. One of the issues I was trying to solve is
possibly expanding this local network so this is great if you want to
drive around your local city, but what if you wanna drive acrosscountry? Ideally, you could have a network and an IPhone app that
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
13/30
would link you up to local ethanol producers that would be willing
to participate in this network, so Im still thinking it through.
ABL: [0.23.27] Well, Nathaniel, thats a really interesting idea we
look forward to hearing how it develops. Are you looking for help atthis point? Is there a way people can contact you?
NC: [0.23.34] Yeah, openalcohol.org is the website Ive been
sitting on for a while, [email protected] be a way to get
hold of me. And yeah - any ideas, thoughts, help... Im actually just
kinda happy to get this out of my head and out...
ABL: [0.23.53] So are you intending to do this as an open source
project?
NC: [0.23.55] Absolutely, open source and open model. Ideally, I
wanted to kind of take the concept, and do it, and prove that it
could work, at least... even the production of the ethanol, and run
the numbers. and do it as an open business model. and I implore
anyone to get the book and take a look at it - it's fascinating.
ABL: [0.24.17] What was the name again?
NC: [0.24.18] Alcohol Can Be A Gas by David Blume. -Because
he proposes an open business model thats solid, its a solid
ABL: [0.24.30] Well, something is valuable that youre talking about
- its a lot easier to say that than it is about intangible...
NC: [0.24.35] Yeah, and it provides employment, and values local
economies, and all these things that seem to be a problem.
ABL: [0.24.43] Sustainability, absolutely. Okay, great. Well, thank
you for stopping by today, Nathaniel. Im glad we had a chance to
do this.
NC: [0.24.50] Yeah, you too.
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
14/30
[0.24.52] Youre listening to Lets Talk Bitcoin, the premier audio-
cast providing news and insights that cover the rapidly evolving
world of digital money. Our twice-weekly shows include analysis of
late-breaking news, updates on key, technical, business, and
regulatory issues and in-depth interviews with the key peopledriving the new digital economy. Lets Talk Bitcoin offers sponsors
an attractive way to reach a targeted and savvy audience. For
more information, email [email protected]
[0.25.27] More than three-hundred thousand users and counting
trust blockchain.info. Its a Bitcoin wallet service and a wealth of
Bitcoin information, and is completely free to use. With ablockchain.info wallet, you will get the convenience of a web wallet
and the security of a desktop client. Blockchain.info is also a block
explorer: you can use it to see Bitcoin transactions in real time,
check the balance of any Bitcoin address, and view many handy
Bitcoin charts all for free. See what they have to offer today at
blockchain.info.
ABL: [0.25.55] Right now, were joined by Elizabeth Ploshay, who
recently won the first elected board seat on the Bitcoin Foundation
on an individual board, so Elizabeth, thank you very much for
joining us today.
EP: [0.26.06] Thanks, Adam. Its a privilege to get to speak to you
guys today. Yeah, so Im really excited, first of all, to serve on the
Bitcoin Foundation board. I see that theres a lot of potential forjust growth of the Bitcoin community and Ive been privileged to
serve with Bitcoin Magazine. Its a joy to be involved in the Bitcoin
community.
ABL: [0.26.22] We just ended what was a much more contentious
election than I really thought it would be, and the candidates that
were running were absolutely incredible as far their credentials
were concerned. What do you credit your victory to?
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
15/30
EP: [0.26.35] You know, one of the main things about this election:
[it] showed all the wonderful candidates who are involved and how
many ideas there are, and I guess I was able to get some support
by being available to a lot of the different members of the
community and getting ideas for it and having some organizationto my platform and I really look forward to working with the other
candidates who ran. It was a very close win but they had tons of
wonderful ideas, ideas regarding regulations, specifically
international outreach; I see that this is an opportunity for the
Bitcoin community to come together so we can all work together
and Im really looking forward to working with the other candidates.
ABL: [0.27.09] Where do you see the education movement going
now, because it seems like the problem that we had six month ago
- education was much more of a problem: there are better
examples, now. What do you think is important to move to next?
EP: [0.27.20] Well, Im very privileged, actually, to now serve on
the education committee on the Bitcoin Foundation, and I see that,
right now, we just need better organization of our resources and
weve got various new sites. We have different forms and whatnot,
but it's absolutely key that we get the word out more and also bemore in-tuned to the individuals who dont yet know about Bitcoin
but who are warmer audiences, so I dont think from a more limited
government type of perspectives, but also other groups of people
around the world: women in particular, who need to learn about
how Bitcoin applies to their lives, so I think its going to be moving
Bitcoin away from just a currency, that say, software developers
use, to something that even women who run household finances
can use.
ABL: [0.28.02] Whats required to make that happen?
EP: [0.28.05] We just need more resources out there, so
specifically with the Bitcoin Foundation, I hope to help it become
more of an information aggregate, so have a better listing of
resources and even simple how-to guides. Sometimes, people just
want this consolidated in to a few bullet points - just how it applies
to their life.
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
16/30
ABL: [0.28.25] So use-cases, right? Thats what were talking
about? Were talking about the need for there to be use-cases
where I, as a woman, would then look at this and say oh, yes, this
applies to my life. So I mean, is thatIm trying to figure out what
this is - is that educational materials? Is that better wallet tools thatare more usable?
EP: [0.28.44] Educational materials and also organization of those
materials. Also, people having opportunity to share how they coin
and how they pack their life, so for example, there are a lot more
women getting involved. Theres a woman in a Bitcoin group that
started up on the west coast here in the United States. Theres
also even, for example, someone in the Bitcoin Wife and she has a
daily blog where she puts out information about how she, as a wife
and a mother, is using Bitcoin, and so more people in the
community are speaking out. -And then also have how-to guides
that are more comprehensive as well, in terms of wallet
development, and also Bitcoin business, and then taking it to the
next level in terms of regulation and policy.
ABL: [0.29.26] -So, before you got into the Bitcoin space, you were
involved in middle east policy?
EP: [0.29.30] Yes.
ABL: [0.29.31] And thats an area thats important to you? Thats a
passionate area for you?
EP: [0.29.33] Yes.
ABL: [0.29.34] -So weve had a conversation before and youve
told me Bitcoin has a real impact on that type of culture, too,
almost even more so than in other places. Why is that?
EP: [0.29.45] Well, Bitcoin opens up the door for freedom of
speech and individual rights around the world, and in a lot of these
countries, unfortunately, government has a very constricting place
in terms of finances. For example, right now, Bitcoin is growing in
Iran and the Iranian Rial are sinking in value due to inflation, andBitcoin provides a way out. Bitcoin, again, is a catalyst towards
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
17/30
that more privacy, decentralized type of movement, as well in other
places, too, Bitcoin is just growing tremendously in Israel: were
seeing there are a lot of technological development in these areas
and Bitcoin, again, is, Id say, a slap in the face to a lot of regimes
that are repressive. -And its also a gateway, too, for variouscountries that are, unfortunately, again, having inflated currency
and also subject to sanctions.
ABL: [0.30.33] One of the major platforms that you ran on was this
idea of internationalizing the Bitcoin Foundation structure, right?
-And yet you are an American citizen which seems to be a bit of a
contradiction for some voters out there.
EP: [0.30.50] Right.
ABL: [0.30.51] So do you think that that matters at all? I mean,
clearly, you dont think that that matters, but tell me, how do we do
this? How do we take this structure that started off as a very US-
centric organization and that looks like its continuing along that
way, at least as far as how its interfacing with regulators and rule-
makers, its not going over to Europe and doing that. -So whats
the path forward for internationalization?
EP: [0.31.13] Well, I see that there are tons of phenomenal Bitcoin
leaders around the world, and several of the candidates who ran
really spear-headed movements within their country, and I really
do feel like its important that we continue to develop Bitcoin
Foundation chapters in various countries. The process has already
been started and I look forward to being more involved with that
after our first board meeting in October. You know what, just
having these leaders provide reports back to the Foundation on
how Bitcoin specifically grows in their country - Im just amazed at
all the different conferences that are taking place. Weve got
several coming up in Canada in October, then weve got India in
December, and Argentina in December, and just various
conferences around the world, and thats another important way to
hook in members and those societies, and get them connected
personally to Bitcoin. -So I see that, again, the foundation yes, it
is, geographically, [unintelligible] based in the United States, but atthe same time, the international membership is just growing, and
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
18/30
we need to be able to have leaders in those countries
strengthened with tools, and even another component is the
educational component in getting resources translated into various
languages, whether its Chinese, or Spanish, or you name it.
Theres the strengthened leaders there providing tools andresources and educational material, and also thinking about
various conferences in those countries.
ABL: [0.32.35] Do these wind up being autonomous individual
units or do they wind up being chapters?
EP: [0.32.41] You know, I dont know, yet, the full direction of the
Foundation, and I look forward to learning more, but I would say
more so chapters. Obviously, there already are autonomous units
and anything, from Bitcoin meetup groups to larger, you know -
theres a Bitcoin embassy in Canada, for example, but its cool to
have the model which I proposed in my platform of organizing
centralization so each chapter being unique but also kind of
connected to a core ideology involving Bitcoin.
ABL: [0.33.14] Right, but ideology doesnt necessarily implyI
guess the question that Im asking is more along the lines of is theUS foundation the most important: is it the center?
EP: [0.33.26] Well I
ABL: [0.33.28] What rules the center? Are the ideals the center?
EP: [0.33.32] Well, its hard to say because its a work in progress
and the US foundation was just founded a little over a year ago, so
I would say that this is an opportunity for us to try and see what
model works best. Right now, Foundation chapters are developing
around the world and it will be interesting to see how that all
evolves, and obviously, the standards for one foundation chapter,
say, in India, might be very different to one in Germany or the UK. I
mean, we just have to see what works best because, at the end of
the day, we all have the same goal to strengthen Bitcoin and get
the word out, and so thats the most important thing instead of
getting caught up in the rules and regulations of all of it.
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
19/30
ABL: [0.34.10] Stepping away from the Foundation and your role
there for a second, weve just seen the demise of Silk Road, it
seems like, and this had a kind of pronounced impact on the
Bitcoin market, although it seems to have been very brief. Im
wondering: I have a sense that if this had happened a year ago,this would have been a much bigger deal as far as both the price
but also in terms of the perception of Bitcoin, and Ive been a little
surprised at how little of an impact it seems to have had even
though this is arguably one of the original and largest markets that
accepted Bitcoin. It did a lot of volume, too. What do you think is
happening here?
EP: [0.34.52] Well, I think that Bitcoin is more and more becoming
a legitimate currency. I mean, its a force to be reckoned with if you
think about it, you know there are so many businesses now
accepting and using Bitcoin for legal activities and Bitcoin is still
strong despite the close-down of Silk Road, and again, I mean, it
just shows also excess government regulation. Bitcoin has come
out the top again and, yeah, a year ago, not as many businesses
were using Bitcoin, Bitcoin wasnt in the news as much, the value
of Bitcoin wasnt as high as it is today, but you can tell if something
is strong if it continues to take hits, and I just see this as anotheropportunity for governments around the world to listen, and wake
up, and see that people want to put their finances and invest their
time and money into something that is stronger than most fiat
currencies.
ABL: [0.35.43] I actually wanted to ask you about that. So you
know, we talk a lot about regulation and one of the questions we
dont talk about a lot is what would good regulation look like? What
would a beneficial outcome, but a realisticnot like they say that
theyre going to completely ignore it and you dont have to pay tax
on it. I dont really think that thats in the cards, but I mean is there
a good regulatory outcome?
EP: [0.36.06] Well, I would just say clarity is necessary at this
point. Sitting here in the United States, we really dont have clarity
much on tax law. We just need a better idea of what to expect. A
lot of businesses, especially, are gonna be hit hard if they dontknow specifically how to operate, also the government in particular
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
20/30
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
21/30
of process forward on the Bitcoin Foundation board, just to be
thinking about the future because people need to understand their
children, for example, have a financial future, and the best financial
future is invested in Bitcoin.
ABL: [0.38.34] Most of the time, when we talk to people in the
space, they're actually not the college age, or if they are college-
aged, they tend to be in like masters programs, but theyre
generally older than twenty-five. Its kinda rare to find somebody
under twenty-five these days who is seriously out doing the Bitcoin
space. -So you think that the younger generation, like eighteen to
like twenty-three demographic, thats the thing.
EP: [0.38.53] Well, I definitely think so and thereve already been
various meetups on college campuses. I mean, the meetup system
is really neat on getting people to come together with these similar
ideas and there are various groups on campus that are already
taking to this, for example, Students For Liberty, Im excited to
meet with some Students For Liberty and representatives here at
the cryptocurrency conference, and just kinda talk with them,
strategize, and get a climate for what its like on college campuses,
but certainly, there are a lot of different movements - anything fromvarious political groups at the college level which translates into
the national level, its just an opportunity for people to kind of find
their niche and then move forward, and you know, see how it can
impact a future career as well as get them connected to movers
and shakers in the community.
ABL: [0.39.35] -So are we talking about specificall people w!o arealrea" pre"ispose" to t!is sort of t!inking# Because again$ ou
talk about Stu"ents %or Libert: t!at&s a group t!at un"erstan" t!eproble' wit! 'one an" t!erefore t!e can appreciate t!e better'one$ but t!at&s t!e t!ing t!at ( alwas run into w!en ( talk topeople w!o are too oung: t!e "on&t !a)e t!e e*perience wit! t!ecurrent sste' to un"erstan" w! it sucks.
EP: [0.39.57] Right, well, there are a different political-type of
groups on campuses and I think its just that showing individuals
how Bitcoin applies to their life, so providing them with resourcesand, honestly, a lot of movements are started by finding people
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
22/30
who are leaders in the community, regardless of if theyre involved
in Bitcoin or not, and getting them latched in and helping teach
them how it applies to their life, and helping them then evangelize
to their peers about it.
ABL: [0.40.24] -So they get viral?
EP: [0.40.25] Yeah, it does get viral really fast, especially when
you start learning about Bitcoin and all the benefits.
ABL: [0.40.32] Well, Elizabeth, thank you very much. Were gonna
go enjoy this party at the BitPay office and its great to have you
again on Lets Talk Bitcoin.
EP: [0.40.38] Okay, thanks, Adam.
[0.40.40] EasyDNS is the Swiss Army knife for your domain
names, helping meet their customers individual needs since 1998.
EasyDNS has been an outspoken critic of SOPA and CISPA.
EasyDNS was an early supporter of Bitcoin and now they are
proud to sponsor this show. Do business with a company thatshares your values. Get a thirteen percent discount when you pay
with Bitcoin. Go to Bitcoin.easydns.com and be sure to use
discount code LTB.
[0.41.90] Hi, this is Jason King, founder at Seans Outpost, and
you are listening to Lets Talk Bitcoin. Seans Outpost is a
homeless outreach in Pensacola, Florida, and we are proudly
powered by Bitcoin. To date, over thirteen thousand meals have
been fed to the homeless in our area, all purchased with Bitcoin
and through the generosity of the cryptocurrency community. Read
more about us at seansoutpost.com. Food, shelter, Bitcoin,
everybody. Seansoutpost.com
AT: [0.41.39] As humans, we share little in common, but that little
we do share is a deep core of our being. We search for purpose,
we are curious, and we thrive on new information. Our self-
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
23/30
awareness, rationality, and sapience are the high level features
that make up a person. They are our capacity for good or evil. As
people, we need to ask ourselves whether we act with purpose,
intent, and ambition. Ask how we are defining ourselves and what
other values that our lives are promoting. Are you taking concretesteps now to achieve your objective? Its important we ask
ourselves these questions and decide which end of the spectrum
between liberty and security we fixate on: a safe life of luxury in
comfort closed in by four walls, or a life of a freedom; freedom to
make love, play loud music, create art, wrestle naked, and raise
confident kids that think?
In criticizing the world we are born into, it is easy to point the finger
at this or that politician or resign problems to circumstance, and
with the perceived lack of power, to concede the situation is
unfixable and utterly broken, but if we want to know who to blame
we need only to look into a mirror: we support the situation. It is
people, not rulers, who create the world of today. Some of us
conclude that the situation is just a normal state of affairs, is simply
human nature, as if there was one human nature, and disregarding
that we all evolve and grow as people in different directions during
our lives. Think of the values we are taught as children, how weare taught to behave as civic citizens, the phrases we are taught
by our parents, teachers, and friends. The system is not just the
state and corporations, it is a machine encompassing all spheres
of life. You might hear, for example, respect for authority figures is
a sign of maturity, men with good jobs dress smart and
respectably, work hard for a good job and a good life, retire young,
dont talk to strangers, life is about money, money makes the world
go 'round. I was told all of these sentences in my life, that learning
to accept authority is an inevitable part of growing up, that my
character is defined by how I look, not how I act, that my single
purpose is to be a work slave, to avoid interactions with random
unknowns outside my circle and the responsibly starts and stops
with myself. All of them are bad values. We are not born with these
values: they are hardwired into us from a young age. Luckily,
knowledge feeds the unlearning process, and the Internet is an
unlearning tool. Have you ever questioned the fifteen years of our
precious childhood from kindergarten to high school? We attendthe prison with fixed schedules and dinner at an allocated time,
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
24/30
were forced to wear uniforms. If you want to speak, you need to
raise your hand. If you need the toilet, you must ask permission,
and the lessons amount to little more than drilling information with
the given promise of honors and qualifications. The reward for
faithfully jumping through all these hoops for fifteen years is aworthless piece of paper that isnt even required for a job at
McDonalds, and the workers still need training. Our children arent
taught how to cook a healthy meal, grow a garden, or even a
rudimentary concept of how to organize or lead groups of people,
without even a glimmer of understanding on how to resolve conflict
without violence: all the principles of logic and how to question an
ideology. Kids are taught how to sit at a desk and listen obediently
as the world is packaged into neat little boxes. School is little more
than a training camp for salute drones designed to format young
minds for a life of subservience, too stupid question the system
itself or the authority of those running it. We are not born with bad
values: they are wired into us from a young age. Lets talk about
good values: responsibility is about filling your needs to have a
dignified existence and then expanding that circle to the people
around you, to help bring up and out the potential of other free
people. Together, we can thrive: community and collective action
is absolutely essential if we want to rise up. The system thrives byseparating people into isolated pockets who get their information
from TV and their culture from corporations. United together, we
are stronger.Perez Inumaru.Independence and autonomy is the ability to act. If we always
need third parties and central organization to resolve disputes,
solve our problems, and co-ordinate us, then we are doomed as a
species. Central authorities are always a magnificent corruption
and that will never change. Learn to be self-reliant and make
things happen. Understanding is not an easy skill to develop but it
is very powerful. Being able to get into peoples minds to listen and
to be able to meet their needs is leadership. A leader serves and
inspires people into action, whereas a ruler uses coercion. For all
their grandeur and force, rulers cannot harness the real potential of
people: nobody thinks under duress. We need assertive individuals
who stand unyielding for what they believe in: if you know
something is right, then fight for your vision, it will happen. Thesystem feeds off passivity and giving consent to its exclusive hold
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
25/30
of force feeds the machine. Lastly, lets approach the world as
artists and bring creativity to our work. The world is diverse,
colorful and vibrant - humans are not meant to live in little boxes
and great concrete jungles. Live art and be creative. Your work is
art. Good art makes people think and feel. The role of good peopleis the vanguard of tomorrow. Plato said the penalty good men pay
for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.
Its an old story: David versus Goliath, Starfleet rebels versus
Galactic death star, anarchist revolutionaries versus the fascists
both sides have existed for centuries and the struggle continues.
However, in recent decades, with the unique political situation, the
Internet, and a dawning awareness amongst people the balance of
power is shifting in our favor this time around. Humans can look to
a future less dominated by the command hierarchies of the past
and more by thriving market places of knowledge and merit, I
remember an amateur blue webpage in the summer of twenty ten
describing a peer to peer currency that cannot be controlled by
governments or central banks. Extremely skeptical, I dived into the
cold and discovered an idea which burnt itself in my memory: my
mind latched on to Bitcoin. I realized this unknown project is the
future of money. Bitcoin is a tool of resistance gifted to us by
Satoshi. That idea has escaped and that idea of cryptocurrencywill not be stopped: Bitcoin or some other cryptocurrency will
succeed. Bitcoin is about direct trade from peer to peer, the purest
value transfer possible between two or more people; a direct and
personal interaction over digital infrastructure. Welcome to the
future of the black market: real values, real people and
uncorrupted markets. The Internet is a tool of freedom and self-
determination, meddling in its mechanics is destructive. Whenever
a website is blocked, a protocol is corrupted at some low level, or
undesirable traffic shaping occurs, these seismic ripples of
censorship and destruction lead to degradation of the network. The
Internet is fundamental to society and must be protected at all
costs. Bitcoin is no different and must be kept pure. There are real
risks to Bitcoin: the protocol is not fixed, is not an axiomatic system
established by Satoshi - its been constantly changing and rapidly
evolving, and the pace is accelerating. Risks are more subtle and
probable than a government demanding changes to the
fundamental Bitcoin protocol. The chilling effect of self-censorship... we dont even need to touch the protocol as Bitcoin
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
26/30
grows. The inevitable specialization is kicking in as the blockchain
is moving towards specialized surfaces and the future of full
Bitcoin nodes on the server, not personal computers.
We have to wake up, adapt, and work with the reality rather thanpersisting in self-denial. If development is too centralized with a
small core infrastructure, then businesses will put real pressure to
have features that destroy the integrity of the Bitcoin network. The
excuse will be to protect themselves from liability, self-censorship,
and what they demand does not have to be protocol changes: they
will demand features in the software they use, software which
remains compatible with the network but works against the
interests of individuals, small businesses, and the black market.
The possible malicious scenarios are endless: stuff like peer to
peer blacklists to create a legitimate walled garden, or tracking
technologies like large databases of IP addresses to triangulate
where transactions came from. At the other end of the spectrum is
putting development effort into diversifying the ecosystem to
protect against censorship, and proxy relay nodes anonymizing
mixing, tweaksm and other technologies. Thats where developers
who believe in Bitcoin should devote time to. Corporations are
powerful enough. To developers: serve your community. Adiversified Bitcoin of many wallets and implementations is a strong
and pure Bitcoin. To protect the integrity of the network, we need
to eliminate single points of failure, an inbred Bitcoin with the same
software code everywhere shares the same weaknesses and its
susceptible to the same attacks. A single pathogen can wipe out a
genetically homogenous population and centralize software is
vulnerable to the dictates of whoever controls development of that
software code on any dictates pressured on to them. The
implications of a diversified Bitcoin is a Bitcoin difficult to control. It
also sets the protocol in stone, as nobody has sole power over the
standard. Consensus from many parties is the way forward. The
proper way to develop a standard is by having many different
competing parties that require mutual interest and agreement to
pass through changes. History is rife with abuse, like when Internet
Explorer dominated the browser market and constantly broke the
web standard by introducing proprietary extensions. Their motive
was to swallow the market and lock users into Internet Explorer:the result was a broken web. A monopoly likes to dominate the
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
27/30
market, shut out competitors, and erect high barriers for entry. A
diversified ecosystem protects against feature creep or bloat of the
standard. Extra features go beyond the basic function of Bitcoin
and so can result in over-complication rather than simple design.
Viewed over a longer time period, extra or unnecessary featuresseem to creep into the system beyond the initial goals and a small
code of fifteen thousand lines set by Satoshi. The result will be a
Bitcoin that becomes increasingly difficult to understand or
implement, with that huge initial investment of resources, time, and
people. No single person will fully understand Bitcoin anymore,
and development monopolies will be further enforced. Linux is the
most secure operating system because of its diversity: there is no
single one exploit that is universal across all versions of Linux.
Bitcoin must evolve in the same way to become a resilient and
tough system able to serve global audience. A massive standard is
difficult to re-implement. Satoshi Nakamoto gifted us a small
focused and pure Bitcoin. There is no need for compromise. Let's
push for our complete vision. Bitcoin is here, we have the initiative,
and we make our stand now. We have the power and now is the
time, not later - now. Within a century of the printing press being
invented, wars, social strife, and revolutions erupted across
Europe. Old kings, revered religious leaders, and tyrannical rulerswere removed from power. People could now read what was
written in their bibles. Mass printing of the bible was subversive
and what was written in their bibles is not what they were being
fed. In the face of hard evidence, people dispelled old notions of
what their religion was saying.
Our economy will change. Bitcoin will rise as fundamental
technology seeking approval from the halls of Washington and
consent from the status quo is mere pandering as lapdogs at the
feet of the system. Why would you willingly give your power away?
Are you stupid?
Some people make the argument that throwing Bitcoin under the
bus and corrupting the core of this technology is needed to help
businesses which specialize in the exchange of failing government
fiat paper money with Bitcoins. Are we willing to sacrifice the purity
of this tool for a few short-term gains that primarily benefit UScorporations? Do they serve the need of Bitcoin? Others even go
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
28/30
further, arguing that we need the masses, that being a majority
protects people from assaults: typical herd mentality - and that
regulation, and the measures to implement them are a typical
process of acceptance. I have news for you: majorities have been
slaughtered like pigs all throughout history. Being pragmatic iscode speak for obedience and cowardice. Bitcoin is the future: act
like you believe it, act to prevent corruption of the system, act to
prevent Bitcoin been courted in any way. We must preserve the
principles of Satoshi Nakamoto. We have the power and the
initiative. You know the truth of the world: stop supporting your
own enemies. We dont need them. They need us! You are the
one empowering them. Withdraw your consent; withdraw your
support. Dont accept their terms or try to win a game where they
set the rules. Dont try to win your rulers favor. Dont bother to beg
for welfare or good treatment. Worst of all: dont help them hunt
down your neighbor. [Its] time we stick our flag in the ground and
make our stand.
Wired reported in September that the Bitcoin Foundation is joining
a taskforce to combat child pornography. Our taskforce will offer
balanced, effective solutions for policy makers, law enforcements,
regulators, and the public. The task force, which launched inAugust, is not solely focused child exploitation: the report detailed
how criminal and terrorist organizations have turned to digital
currency to reap profits from drug trafficking, prostitution, and a
dissemination of child abuse images.
One day master told slave, do this small thing and everything is
fine. Keep up the good work. The slave was happy because not
much was asked, so he started to create something really cool.
The master walked in a week later and said, do this as well. Theslave was shocked, but master, we had an agreement: you said I
only had to do this. Master responded, I changed my mind. You
need to do this as well. The slave reluctantly agreed. At least it
wasnt that bad. Over time, the master, more and more, increased
his demands on the slave. By now, the slave had created
something totally wonderful and was dependant on it, but the
master controlled his work and owned him.
The task of an activist is not to negotiate systems of power with as
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
29/30
much personal integrity as possible, its to dismantle those
systems.
The road is long and real work is needed: less talk and more
action. There are too few people in this world working onworthwhile things for the people, but even though the work load is
immense and daunting, there are concrete steps to achieve the
global objective. Truth happens. We will succeed. Dont wait
around for others to take action. We must dive head-first, without
regard for consequences, and beak the inertia of passivity. When
enough people do this, real change will occur. Fight for what you
believe in. If you believe and uphold a truth, then all your energy
should be devoted to your objectives. Any time you are accepting
compromise you are acting against your objective. None of us are
pure; we are all flawed and imperfect, but as good people, we
must strive for uncomplicated directness in our actions. Our
actions must be transparent in motive and pure in reasoning.
The power is within us. It always has been.
ABL: : Thanks for listening to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin.Content for todays show was provided by Nathaniel Castro,
Elizabeth Ploshay, and Amir Taaki. Additional editing was provided
by Mathew Zipkin, on-location engineering by Krystal Levine, and
music was provided by Jared Rubens. If you cant get enough
original thought and discussion, read our daily blog at
letstalbitcoin.com, set up for our weekly newsletter at
theweeklybitcoin.com. To get in touch send an email directly at
[email protected] or visit letstalkbitcoin.com/talk to bedirected to our listeners sub Reddit.
See you next time.
--- Music fades out ---
8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"
30/30