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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTE AS TE RN D IS TR IC T O F T EX AS
LUFKIN DIVISION
U NI TE D S TA TE S , E X R E L,ET AL
VS.
PLANNED PARENTHOOD,ET AL
|||||||
DOCKET 9:09CV124
N OV EM BE R 2 2, 2 01 1
10:43 A.M.
BEAUMONT, TEXAS
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V OL UM E 1 O F 1 , P AG ES 1 T HR OU GH 2 6
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF CASE MANAGEMENT CONFERENCE
B EF OR E T HE H ON OR AB LE R ON C LA RKUNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
-------------------------------------------------------
APPEARANCES:
F OR T HE P LA IN TI FF K AR EN R EY NO LD S :
J OH N M IC HA EL L OV EL OV E & W IL LS2 02 E . L UF KI N A VE NU ES UI TE 2 01L UF KI N, T EX AS 7 59 01
L AR RY L . C RA INA ME RI CA N C EN TE R F OR L AW & J US TI CE5 21 4 M AR YL AN D W AYS UI TE 4 02B RE NT WO OD , TN 3 70 27
F RA NC IS J . M AN IO NA ME RI CA N C EN TE R F OR L AW & J US TI CEP .O. B OX 6 0N EW H O PE , K EN TU CK Y 4 00 52
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F OR T HE D EF EN DA NT P LA NN ED P AR EN TH OO D G UL F C OA ST :
J AM ES W . B OS WE LL , I I IK IN G & S PA LD IN G - A TL AN TA1 18 0 P EA CH TR EE S TR E ET , N EA TL AN TA , G EO RG IA 3 03 09
J. THAD HEARTFIELDT HE H EA RT FI EL D L A W F IR M2 19 5 D OW LE N R OA DB EA UM ON T, T E XA S 7 77 06
COURT REPORTER: CHRISTINA L. BICKHAM, CRR, RMRFEDERAL OFFICIAL REPORTER3 00 W IL LO W, S U IT E 2 2 1
B EA UM ON T, T E XA S 7 77 01
PROCEEDINGS REPORTED USING COMPUTERIZED STENOTYPE;TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED VIA COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION.
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(REPORTER'S NOTES 11-22-2011, PLANNED
PARENTHOOD, 10:43 A.M., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2011,
BEAUMONT, TEXAS, HON. RON CLARK PRESIDING.)
(OPEN COURT, ALL PARTIES PRESENT.)
TH E C OURT: I call -- well , I guess
technically it's still United States versus Planned
Parenthood; b ut s in ce t he U ni te d S ta te s a nd t he S ta te
h av e b ot h d ec li ne d t o b e a ct iv e, i t w ou ld b e Reynolds
versus Planned Parenthood, e t al, Number 9:09cv124.
W h o i s h er e f or p la in ti ff s ?
M R. L OV E: Y ou r H o no r, M ik e L ov e o n b eh al f o f
r el at or , a lo ng w it h L ar ry C ra in a nd F ra nc is M an io n.
T HE CO UR T: V er y g oo d. W el co me .
And for defendants?
M R . H E AR TF IE LD : G oo d m o rn in g , y o ur H on or .
T ha d H ea rt fi el d f or P la nn ed P ar en th oo d. I h av e w it h m e
M r. J im B os we ll f ro m A tl an ta , G eo rg ia .
M R. B OS WE LL : G oo d m or ni ng , y ou r H on or .
THE C OURT: Okay. And we had a motion t o
s ub st it ut e o ut c ou ns el e ar ly o n, r ig ht ?
M R. H EA RT FI EL D: Y es . A lis sa R u bi n h as g o ne
i nt o a n on pr of it o rg an iz at io n a n d - -
T HE CO UR T: O ka y. An y ob jec ti on ?
M R. L OV E: N o o b je ct io n, y ou r H o no r.
TH E COURT: All r ight. An d have y ou f iled
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w it h t he E as te rn D is tr ic t C le rk 's O ff ic e? A re y ou
a lr ea dy a m em be r o f t he b ar ?
M R. B OS WE LL : I h av e f i le d f or p ro h ac s ta tu s
y ou r H on or ; a nd i t h as b ee n g ra nt ed .
TH E COURT: Okay. Then I will g rant t hat
m ot io n t o l et h er w it hd ra w a nd l et y ou a pp ea r.
M R. B OS WE LL : T ha nk y o u.
M R. H EA RT FI EL D: T ha nk y ou , y ou r H on or .
TH E COURT: Okay. We' re h ere o n the
s ch ed ul in g c on fe re nc e. I t 's u nd er t he F al se C la im s A ct
so, jurisdiction will be uncontested.
W e j us t h ad d ef en da nt 's m ot io n t o d is mi ss t h e
t hi rd a me nd ed c om pl ai nt . T ha t w as f il ed o n t he 1 7t h; s o
i t' s n ot r ip e y et .
O ne o f t he r ea so ns I w an te d c ou ns el h er e i n
p er so n, a lt ho ug h l oc al c ou ns el a re p ro ba bl y f am il ia r w it
th is , i s t ha t I w an t t o b e v er y s ur e t ha t b oth s ide s a re
v er y f am il ia r w it h o ur l oc al r ul es d ea li ng w it h
d is cl os ur e a nd d is co ve ry . I f y ou 'r e u se d t o p ra ct ic e i n
o th er j ur is di ct io ns , y ou m ay b e m or e i n t un e w it h t he
F ed er al R ul es o n d is cl os ur e w hi ch a re m uc h m or e l im it ed
than ours.
A n d I 'm s ur e y ou 'v e t al ke d w it h M r. H ea rt fi el
a bo ut t hi s, o r y o u w i ll . B ut o ne o f t h e w a ys t ha t J ud ge
W ar d p ut i t w as i f t he re a re d oc um en ts t ha t y ou d on 't
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wa nt to t ur n o ve r, t ho se a re t he o nes t ha t y ou h av e t o
tu rn o ve r. I f t he y' re g oin g to h ur t y ou , w ell , t ha t
makes them relevant.
A nd t he w ho le p ur po se o f t hi s, o f c ou rs e, i s
t o r ed uc e e xp en se . T hi s g oe s b ac k to 1 99 2 w he n t hi s
d is tr ic t a do pt ed t ho se r ul es . A ll o f t he s tu di es s ho we d
t ha t i t w as d is co ve ry t ha t w as p us hi ng t he e xp en se o f
c as es b ey on d t h e r ea ch o f o rd in ar y p eo pl e. A nd i n t hi s
particular case, obviously, presumably the Planned
P ar en th oo d e nt it ie s d o n ot w an t t o b e s pe nd in g e nd le ss
m on ey i n l it ig at io n. T he y w an t t o b e s er vi ng c li en ts .
L ik ew is e , t ho se w ho a re b ri ng in g t h e c as e, e sp ec ia ll y
s in ce t h e g ov er nm en t h as s te pp ed b ac k, w il l p ro ba bl y w an
t o c on se rv e t he ir r es ou rc es . S o, I 'm g oi ng t o b e l oo ki n
v er y c lo se ly a t F ed er al R ul es o f C iv il P ro ce du re 1 i n
t er ms o f d is co ve ry ; a nd I 'm g oi ng t o e xp ec t c ou ns el t o
w or k t og et he r o n g et ti ng t he d is cl os ur es o ut a nd
cooperating in that regard.
I 'm n ot e xp ec ti ng y ou t o h av e t o l ik e e ac h
o th er . I u nd er st an d t ha t t hi s i s a n e mo ti ona l -- I m ea n
t he k in d o f c as e t ha t b ot h s id es m ay h av e - - e sp ec ia ll y
c li en ts m ay h av e v er y d ef in it e v ie ws . B ut t hi s i sn 't
C on gr es s. I d on 't s et p ol icy . T hi s i s n ot a p oli ti ca l
f or um . I' m g oi ng t o d ec id e th e i ss ue s o f l aw a nd f ac t,
o r a j ur y w il l, d ep en di ng o n h ow m an y d if fe re nt i ss ue s
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a re b ef or e t hi s p ar ti cu la r c ou rt . S o, I 'm c au ti on in g
c ou ns el t o f oc us o n t ho se k in ds o f t hi ng s a s o pp os ed t o
t he m or e e mo ti on al a rg um en ts t ha t m ig ht b e m ad e i n a
different forum.
On e o f the things that -- you seem to have a
tremendous number of people identified for depositions.
A nd , o f c ou rs e, i t' s a lw ay s p os si bl e t o g o t al k t o s om e
w it ne ss es a nd f in d o ut w ha t t he y' re g oi ng t o s ay a nd
p re se nt t he m w it ho ut a d ep os it io n, u nl es s y ou 'r e t hi nk in
that a --
W el l, l et m e a sk p la in ti ff . I m ea n, a re y ou
t hi nk in g t he se p eo pl e a re g oi ng t o h av e t o b e
p re se nt ed - - t he ir t es ti mo ny i s g oi ng t o h av e t o b e
p re se nt ed b y d ep os it io n? A re y ou r ea ll y t ry in g t o g et
d is co ve ry f ro m t he m o r a re y o u t al ki ng a bo ut p re se rv in g
t he ir t es ti mo ny o r w ha t?
M R. L OV E: Y ou r H on or, it 's a l it tl e b it of
b ot h. T he c as e t he or y o f p la in ti ff i s t ha t t he c or po ra t
o ff ic e h as s et u p s om e p ol ic ie s a nd p ro ce du re s r eg ar di ng
maximizing revenue, billing everything they can on
certain government programs regardless of medical
n ec es si ty; an d t ha t' s - - i f w e b oi l i t d ow n to a
n ut sh el l , t ha t 's k in d o f t he i ss ue .
A nd p la in ti ff w or ke d i n t he L uf ki n o ff ic e a nd
w ou ld t es ti fy t ha t t he se d ir ec ti ve s c am e f ro m c or po ra te
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t o t h e L uf ki n b ra nc h a nd a ls o w it ne ss ed i t d is se mi na te d
t o t he o th er a re as , t o a ll o f t he b ra nc he s; a nd s he h as
s om e k no wl ed ge o f w ha t w as g oi ng o n i n d if fe re nt
branches.
T h e d ef en se , f ro m c on ve rs at io ns t ha t w e' v e
a lr ea dy h ad a s w el l a s l oo ki ng a t m ot io ns t ha t h av e b ee n
f il ed , h as k in d o f f oc us ed o n t he i de a t ha t o ur
p la in ti ff , o ur r el at or , o nl y h as k no wl ed ge o f w ha t
h ap pe ne d i n L uf ki n a nd t ha t i f t he re i s a ny th in g g oi ng
a st ra y, i t' s o nl y i n L uf ki n a nd n ot e ve ry wh er e e ls e.
A nd , s o, o ne o f t he r ea so ns t ha t w e' ve
i de nt if ie d p ot en ti al ly t hi s m an y d ep os it io ns i s t ha t - -
t o g o a n d v er if y, b as ic al ly t ak e c or po ra te p eo pl e , t ak e
L uf ki n p eo pl e. A nd t ha t' s a p re tt y g oo d n um be r t he re .
B ut n ow w e' ve g ot 1 1 c li ni cs ; a nd w ha t w e k in
of d id as a good faith estimate is if we have to go and
g et e vi de nc e l oc ke d d ow n t ha t w ha t' s h ap pe ni ng a t o ne
c li ni c i s h ap pe ni ng a t a ll t he se o th er c li ni cs , w el l,
th at 's 1 1 t im es - - a nd we j us t c ho se t he n um be r o f t wo
p er c li ni c; a nd t ha t w ou ld g iv e u s 2 2.
B y c on ve rs at io ns I 'v e h ad w it h c ou ns el , I
t hi nk t he re i s a g oo d c ha nc e t ha t a s w e m ov e f or wa rd w it
t hi s a nd w e s ta rt s ee in g t he s am e k in d o f d oc um en ts
p ro vi ng t hi ng s o ut a nd w it ne ss es p ro vi ng t hi ng s o u t f ro m
o ne c li ni c t o t he n ex t, t he n c er ta in ly w e' ll b e l oo ki ng
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t o t ry t o l im it t ho se d ep os it io ns a nd w on 't b e t ry in g t o
g o g e t 2 2 d ep os it io ns t ha t a r e a ll i de nt ic al .
T HE C OU RT : W el l, f or e xa mp le , t he i de nt it ie s
y ou l is t o n p ag e 6 s ta rt in g w it h P et er D ur ki n t hr ou gh
E ll a C on ra d , a re t ho se i nd iv id ua ls e mp lo ye d a t t he se
v ar io us c li ni cs o r - - i n o th er w or ds , p eo pl e w ho a re
l is te d A t hr ou gh M t he re, a re t ho se t he o ne s a t t he
c li ni c; o r i s t ha t u nd er N w he re y ou 'v e g ot t hi s o th er
group of...
M R. L OV E: Y es , y ou r H on or , t he i de nt it ie s A
t hr ou gh M a re t he c or po ra te r ep re se nt at iv es , a g oo d m an y
o f w hi ch a re s ti ll e mp lo ye es o f t he d ef en da nt . T he y' re
t he c or po ra te o ff ic er s o f t he m ai n d ef en da nt i n H ou st on
a nd t ho se a re k in d o f t he t op p eo pl e w it h r el ev an t
k no wl ed ge . W e c er ta in ly d on ' t a n ti ci pa te t o d ep os e a l l
o f t ho se f ol ks a ct ua ll y.
T HE C OU RT : W el l, y ou d o u nd er st an d t ha t if
y ou g o a he ad a nd d ep os e, s ay , P am G ar re tt , t ha t' s n ot a
3 0( b) (6 ) d ep os it io n; a nd s he d oe sn ' t b in d t he
c or po ra ti on . I m ea n, t he w ho le p ur po se o f 3 0( b) (6 ) i s
you put out the notice. They ge t t o pick who has the
m os t k no wl ed ge . T he n t he y' re e xp ec te d t o p re pa re t ha t
p er so n, a nd t he n t he y' re s tu ck w it h t ha t p er so n' s
t es ti mo ny a s t o t he c or po ra ti on .
B ut i f y ou t ry t o j us t d epo se a ll o f t he se
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p eo pl e, it 's n ot q ui te t he s am e as a b in di ng o n t he
c or po ra ti on . I m ea n, i t' s h ar d, I gu es s, t o - - i f y ou' v
g ot t he p re si de nt o f t he c or po ra ti on s ay in g " X, " i t' s a
l it tl e ha rd f or a l aw ye r t o c om e i n a nd s ay , " No, no , Y
B ut a t th e s ame t im e t ec hn ic al ly - - I m ea n, y ou d o
u nd er st an d t ec hn ic al ly s pe ak in g, y o u m ay b e, o ne ,
d ep os in g w ay t oo m an y p eo pl e a nd , t wo , n ot g et ti ng t he
information you need.
M R. L OV E: C er ta in ly , yo ur H on or . W e pl an t o
r el y p ri ma ri ly o n t he 3 0( b) (6 ) a s f ar a s b in di ng t he
c or po ra ti on , b ut w e d id w an t t o l is t s om e o f t he se f ol ks
a s a dd it io na l w it ne ss es o ut si de o f t he 3 0( b) (6 ).
T HE C OU RT : W el l, g iv en t he n um be r o f p eo pl e,
i t w ou ld a pp ea r t o t he c ou rt t ha t w hi le n or ma ll y a
d ep os it io n c an t ak e s ev en h ou rs u nd er t he r ul es ,
e sp ec ia ll y i f i t' s g oi ng t o b e r ep et it iv e a nd e sp ec ia ll y
i f s om e of th es e c an b e g on e d ow n t o a 3 0( b) (6 )
d ep os it io n, i t m ig ht b e b et te r t o l oo k a t j us t a t ot al
n um be r o f h ou rs o f d ep os it io n t im e, w hi ch g iv es y ou a n
i nc en ti ve t o g et r ig ht t o t he p oi nt r at he r t ha n g oi ng
t hr ou gh s om eb od y' s e nt ir e h is to ry i n h ig h s ch oo l a nd
c ol le ge b ef or e y ou f in al ly s ta rt a sk in g t he m a q ue st io n
a bo ut t he c as e. N ot t ha t y ou w ou ld d o t ha t, b ut w e' ve
a ll s ee n y ou ng a tt or ne ys d o t ha t w he n t he y s ho w u p w it h
f or m b oo k a t a d ep os it io n .
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A nd , s o, I 'm w on de ri ng i f m ay be , g iv en t hi s
l ar ge n um be r o f p eo pl e, I c ou ld s et a t im e l im it l ik e,
s ay, 45 or 50 ho ur s a nd t he n y ou c ou ld g o a he ad a nd
d ep os e t he p eo pl e a nd t ha t w ou ld g iv e s om e i nc en ti ve t o
move along quickly.
O bv io us ly i f a w it ne ss i s i ns tr uc te d t o h av e
l on g d el ay s b et we en e ac h a ns we r o r p re te nd n ot t o
u nd er st an d E ng li sh , t ha t' s g oi ng t o c au se a p ro bl em . B u
I 'm s ur e w it h M r. H ea rt fi el d o n y ou r s id e, t ha t' s n ot
g oi ng t o h ap pe n.
M R. B OS WE LL : T ha t w on 't h ap pe n, y ou r H on or .
TH E COURT: No. I d idn't t hink i t w ould .
W ha t' s y ou r t ho ug ht o n t ha t?
M R. L OV E: Y ou r H o no r, w e' re c er ta in ly o pe n t
t ha t, w ha te ve r t he c ou rt w ou ld l ik e t o d o o r c ou ns el
w ou ld l ik e t o d o i n t ha t r eg ar d.
TH E C OURT: Well, what I think I will do ,
t he n, i s I w il l g iv e e ac h s id e 5 0 h ou rs o f d ep os it io n
t im e ; a n d t ha t 's w he th er y ou ' re a sk in g q ue st io ns o n
direct or cross -- let's do it this way. We'll d o
4 5 h ou rs f or a ll t he se w it ne sse s p lu s e xp er ts . I f y ou
i de nt if y e xp er ts , y ou c an g o a he ad a nd t ak e t he m u nd er
t he r ul es, th e n or ma l s ev en h ou rs. I d on 't k no w ho w m an
e xp er ts e ac h s id e i s g oi ng t o d o, b ut w e' ll p ut t he m
a si de . So , 4 5 h ou rs f or f ac t w it ne ss es a nd t he n y ou r
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experts.
W ha t k in d o f e xp er ts d o y ou t hi nk y ou 'r e g oi n
to b e b ringing up in this kind o f a case? What kinds of
e xp er t t es ti mo ny w ou ld y ou t hi nk i s r el ev an t?
M R. L OV E: Y ou r Ho no r, s ev era l. O ff t he t op
o f m y h ea d -- an d I w an t t o co nf er wi th c ou ns el o n t ha t
to give you a complete answer . But the best I can do fo
r ig ht n ow i s w e' re d ef in it el y g oi ng t o p ro ba bl y n ee d s om
s ta ti st ic ia n t es ti mo ny . W e - -
T HE C OU RT : W ha t? T o sh ow t ha t th e ex pe ct ed
b il li ng i s s ta ti st ic al ly a n a no ma ly o r s om et hi ng , o r
w ha t' s t he - -
MR . LOVE: Yes, y our H onor . I t hink s ome o f
t ha t i s g oi ng t o b e k in d o f a s of tw ar e a na ly si s, a nd s om
o f i t i s g oi ng t o b e e xp er t t es ti mo ny o n m ed ic al
necessity.
I c an t el l t he c ou rt i s i nt er es te d i n my
statistician --
T HE C OU RT : N o, n ot p ar ti cu la rl y.
M R. L OV E: O ka y. T he n I' m mi sr ea di ng t he
court.
T HE C OU RT : I 'm j us t t r yi ng t o f ig ur e o ut w ha
a re as o f e xp er ti se w e' re l oo ki ng a t. I m ea n, o ka y,
m ed ic al n ec es si ty , s om eb od y w it h - - I m ea n, a d oc to r, a
p hy si ci an , a h ea lt h c ar e p ro vi de r o f s om e k in d w ho i s
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g oi ng t o s ay a ll o f t he se p ro ce du re s w er e n ot m ed ic al ly
n ec es sa ry a nd t he re fo re t he r e w a s o ve rb il li ng ? I s
t ha t - - I 'm n ot t ry in g t o m ak e y ou w ai ve a ny th in g, b ut i
t ha t g en er al ly t he k in d o f t hi ng w e 'r e t al ki ng a bo ut ?
MR . L OVE: It is generally , y our Honor. Our
t he or y o f t he ca se i s b as ic al ly t ha t a l ot o f - - w it h
p eo pl e o n g ov er nm en t p ay in g p ro gr am s, t he y k in d o f g e t
e ve ry th in g o n a p ol ic y b as is , t es ts d on e a nd p ro ce du re s;
a nd p eo pl e t ha t a re c as h p ay g et i t a s m ed ic al ly
necessary.
B ut t o f ul ly a ns we r t he c ou rt 's q ue st io n i n
t ha t r eg ar d , t he re w il l b e e xp er ts r eg ar di ng m ed ic al
records, medical necessity, and billing practices.
T HE C OU RT : W el l, t o m ak e i t a f al se c la im,
a re n' t y ou g oi ng t o h av e t o s om eh ow b e s ho wi ng t ha t
u nn ec es sa ry - - I m ea n, y ou k no w - - w el l, t he c la ss ic
e xa mp le i s t he m an i n t he h os pi ta l b ei ng c ha rg ed f or
f em in in e h yg ie ne p ro du ct s o r t he p er so n w ho j us t h ad - -
t he c ase I sa w, t he l ad y w ho j us t h ad h ip s urg er y a nd w a
b ei ng b il l ed f or b ic yc le t he ra py h ou rs a ft er t he s ur ge ry
O bv io us n on se ns e b ut - - I m ea n, t ha t' s o ne t hi ng .
I t' s a l it tl e b it d if fe re nt w he n s om eo ne i s
s ay in g, " Ye ah , I t hi nk w e n ee d t o h av e t hi s t es t f or
p os si bl e h ea rt a tt ac k" o r b lo od s ug ar p ro bl em s o r
w ha te ve r a nd s om eo ne e ls e s ay s, " We ll , I 'd b e w il li ng t o
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l et t hem t ak e th e r i sk ." I m ea n, w ha t a r e w e t al kin g
about here?
MR . LOVE: Exactly. A nd t hat , I think, is wh
w e' re g oi ng t o b e l oo ki ng a t s om e o f t he s ta ti st ic al
e vi de nc e a s w el l b ec au se m ed ic al n ec es si ty - - g ra nt ed ,
t he re i s a c er ta in a mo un t o f g ra y a re a w he re r ea so na bl e
m in ds c ou ld d if fe r; a nd , s o, I t hi nk t ha t' s w he n s om e o f
t he s ta ti st ic al e vi de nc e i s g oi ng t o b e p re tt y i mp or ta nt
w he n w e s ay t he c as h p ay 5 p er ce nt g ot t hi s p ro ce du re a n
t he M ed ic ai d 9 5 p er ce nt g ot t hi s p ro ce du re . I d on 't k no
t ha t i t' s g oi ng t o b e t ha t d ra ma ti c; b ut I t hi nk f ro m
w ha t w e' ve a lr ea dy s ee n, t he re a re s om e p re tt y
significant differences regarding some of the procedures
t ha t a re d on e.
A nd , s o, m ed ic al n ec es si ty - - i t w ou ld b e o ur
p os it io n o f t he c as e - - a pp li es n o m at te r w ho i s p ay in g
t he b ill . An d, s o, w he n y ou s ee s om e o f t he se s tar k
d if fe re nc es , t ha t w ou ld b e e vi de nt ia ry i n o ur f ra me o f
t he c as e.
T HE CO UR T: O ka y.
M R. L OV E: A nd t he n t he re 's a ls o p o li ci es a nd
procedures and billing practices, revenue goals, things
l ik e t ha t t ha t a re c om in g t ha t w e a nt ic ip at e d oc um en t ar y
e vi de nc e. We ha ve s om e a lr ea dy t ha t' s g oi ng t o b e - -
t he re w as a c or po ra te p ol ic y t o m ax im iz e t he a mo un t t ha t
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t he y g ot f ro m t he se g ov er nm en t p ro gr am s.
T HE C OU RT : W el l, t ha t m ay b e t ru e; b ut a re
y ou g oi ng t o n ee d a n e xp er t t o s ay pr of it s a re b ad ?
MR . LOVE: No, s ir.
T HE C OU RT : I m ea n, t ha t' s g oi ng t o b e a t oug
o ne t o m ak e.
M R. LO VE : R ig ht .
TH E COURT: Okay. Let m e hear f rom
d ef en da nt s, t he n. W ha t k in d o f e xp er t t es ti mo ny , i f a ny
do y ou think is going to be needed? You don't have t o
i de nt if y t h e e xp er t b ut j us t w ha t a re as .
M R. B OS WE LL : S ur e. W e b el ie ve - - a n d, a g ai n
y ou s aid y ou' re n ot g oi ng to b in d u s w it h t h is . Bu t
t he re a r e a bo ut 1 .8 m il li on p at ie nt e nc ou nt er s t ha t a re
c ov er ed b y t he c la im s t ha t t he r el at or h as m ad e; a nd w e
t hi nk t ha t t o d et er mi ne i f a s er vi ce w as m ed ic al ly
n ec es sa ry , y ou h av e t o l oo k a t t he c ha rt .
T HE C OU RT : T he c har ge or th e c ha rt ?
M R. B OS WE LL : T he c ha rt . Fo r ex am pl e --
TH E COURT: Okay. Is i t w orth c ounsel - -
m ay be y o u' v e a lr ea dy t al ke d a bo ut t hi s - - d oi ng s am pl in g
techniques, especially early on?
F or e xa mp le , t he c la im i s m ad e t ha t
P ro ce du re X i s o ve ru se d; s o, r at he r t ha n g o s pe nd t he
m on ey t o g o t hr ou gh a ll 1 .4 [sic] million patients, you
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h av e a s ta ti st ic al ly p ro pe r s am pl e d on e. A nd i f i t t ur n
o ut t ha t i t' s a ll n or ma l, t he n m ay be t he re 's n ot a n ee d
t o s pe nd e nd le ss m on ey to go t hr ou gh e ve ry s in gl e o ne .
m ea n , t ha t' s s im il ar t o, i n e le ct ro ni c d is co ve ry , g oi ng
through hashing or other techniques.
M R. B OS WE LL : I a gr ee , y o ur H on or , a g ai n,
w it ho ut b ei ng b ou nd b ec au se I h at e t o b in d m y c li en t.
T HE C OU RT : W el l, I h ave n' t - - h av e c ou ns el
e ve n t al ke d a bo ut - -
M R. B O SW EL L: W e h av e, y ou r H on or .
T HE C O UR T: O ka y, g o od .
M R. B OS WE LL : A nd I 'm ve ry n ew i nt o t h e c a se .
T HE CO UR T: O ka y.
M R. B OS WE LL : B ut , y o u k no w, I b el ie ve t ha t' s
p ro ba bl y t h e d ir ec ti on t ha t w il l b e n ec es sa ry t o g o.
W e f in d i n c as es a lo t of ti me s w he n t he
D ep ar tm en t o f J us ti ce i s o n t he o th er s id e, w e d on 't s ee
t he s am pl in g p ro ce ss t he s am e w a y t ha t t he g ov er nm en t m a
s ee i t, or in th is c as e t he r el at or ; a nd i t m ay b e
n ec es sa ry f or b ot h s id es t o d o t he ir o wn p ro ce ss a nd t he
d is cu ss w hi ch o ne i s r ig ht .
B ut f ro m a n e xp er t s ta nd po in t, i t w ou ld b e
n ec es sa ry t o h av e a s ta ti st ic ia n. I t w ou ld b e n ec es sa ry
t o h av e s om eo ne t o l oo k a t m ed ic al n ec es si ty w ho h as a
c li ni ca l b ac kg ro un d. I n t hi s c a se a ls o I t hi nk i t' s
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g oi ng t o b e n ec es sa ry f or s om eb od y t o g iv e t es ti mo ny o n
c er ta in p ub li c h ea lt h a nd s ta nd ar ds o f c ar e t op ic s. F or
e xa mp le , i f i t i s r ec og ni ze d i n t he p ub li c h ea lt h
c om mu ni ty t ha t f or a p at ie nt w ho 's s ex ua ll y a ct iv e, t ha t
p er so n s ho ul d b e g iv en t hi s p ar ti cu la r t es t i f s he 's
u nd er 2 5 y ea rs o ld a nd t ha t t he C DC r ec om me nd s t ha t o r
that's standard medical practice that's accepted, we
w ou ld h av e t o h av e s om eb od y t al k a bo ut t ho se t op ic s. S o
t ho se a re t he t hr ee - -
T HE C OU RT : W el l, w ai t. P re su ma bl y p la in ti ff
i s n ot g oi ng t o b e s pe nd in g a l ot o f t im e b ri ng in g u p - -
I m ea n, m ay be - - b ut p re su ma bl y n ot a l ot o f t im e s ay in g
t ha t i f s om eo ne i s a ct iv e, a s y ou s ay , a nd i s y ou ng , t he
s ho ul d b e t es te d f or S TD. I d on 't kn ow w ha t te st y ou 'r e
t al ki ng a bo ut , b ut t hi s i s j us t a n e xa mp le . T ha t s ou nd s
p re tt y l og ic al b ec au se t he y' re a t r is k. M ay be i t' s n ot
b ut i t ju st s ou nd s o ff t he t op o f m y h ea d t hat it w ou ld
be logical.
I h ad t he i mp re ss io n t ha t y ou r p oi nt w ou ld b e
m or e i n t er ms o f o ve rt es ti ng o r y ou 'r e t ry in g t o s ho w
pretty statistically significant overtesting or
o ve r bi ll in g f or t es ts t ha t w er e n ot g iv en .
M R. L O VE : T ha t' s c or re ct .
T HE CO UR T: O ka y.
M R. L OV E: S om e o f t ha t i n vo lv es S TD t es ti ng ,
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b ut c er ta in ly a l ot o f t he S TD t es ti ng i s l eg it im at e.
T HE C OU RT : W el l, t ha t w as j us t a n e xa mp le.
Okay. And I guess what I' m t hinking of is it
d oe sn 't m ak e a l ot o f s en se f or a n o rg an iz at io n w it h
l im it ed r es ou rc es i n t ig ht e co no mi c t im es t o s pe nd a l ot
o f t im e p re pa ri ng t o d ef en d a ga in st s om et hi ng t ha t
t he y' re n ot b ri ng in g. I m ea n, i t m ig ht b e w or th wh il e - -
I m ea n, I u nd er st an d - - I m ea n, a ss um in g t hi s w as a
p at en t c as e a nd y ou h ad c om pl et el y u nl im it ed r es ou rc es ,
s ur e, y ou m ig ht w an t l ot s o f t es ti mo ny a bo ut a ll t he g oo
stuff y ou d o. But maybe it would b e b est to focus on
d is pr ov in g t he ir c la im s a s o pp os ed t o p ro vi ng t ha t o n t h
s id e y ou d o g oo d s tu ff .
M R. B OS WE LL : A gr ee d.
THE COURT: Okay. And I c an see
M r. H ea rt fi el d s mi li ng a bo ut t he u nl im it ed r es ou rc es i n
p at en t c as e b ec au se h e d oe s m an y o f t ho se .
M R . H E A RT FI EL D: S om et im es w as te d r es ou rc es .
TH E COURT: Yes. That 's w hat I'm trying to
a vo id h er e b ec au se I u nd er st an d t hi s i s p ub li c f un ds a nd
I u nd er st an d t ha t t he p la in ti ff s a r e l im it ed a ls o a nd I
v er y c og ni za nt o f m y r ol e i n t ry in g t o g et t hi s i ss ue
t ri ed - - o r t he se i ss ue s t ri ed b ut at t he s ame t im e l oo k
a t F ed er al R ul e o f C iv il P ro ce du re 1 a nd m ak in g s ur e i t'
efficient.
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O ka y. S o, o bv io us ly s om eb od y i n t he h ea lt h
c ar e f ie ld , s om eb od y t al ki ng a bo ut t he p ub li c h ea lt h
a sp ec ts , s ta ti st ic ia n. A n y o t h er k in ds o f e xp er ts y o u
t hi nk w e' re g oi ng t o g et i nt o?
M R. B OS WE LL : T ha t' s a l l I c an t hi nk o f r i gh t
now.
T HE C OU RT : O ka y. S ou nd s l ike y ou 'r e bo th o n
t he s ame t ra ck o n t ha t, t he n, t oo, in t er ms of k ind s of
experts.
Y ou s ee m t o h av e a gr ee d o n e le ct ro ni c
d is co ve ry , a nd y ou b ot h a g re ed t ha t n ec es sa ry s te ps w o ul
b e t a k en t o p re se rv e d is co ve ra bl e i n f or ma ti on . I h av e
entered a protective order on confidential information.
I w ou ld r em in d c ou ns el t ha t w he n y ou g et i nt o v ar io us
e xh ib it s a nd c ha rt s, p le as e b e v er y c ar ef ul t o b e
redacting out identifying information.
I f s om eb od y' s S oc ia l S ec ur it y n um be r i s t he re
l et 's g o a h ea d a n d w hi te t ha t o u t. I f s o me bo dy 's
p er so na l t el ep ho ne n um be r o r - - I d on 't k no w w ha t y ou
h av e i n y ou r r e co rd s. B ut m ay be a d ri ve r' s l ic en se
n um be r, o th er k in ds o f t hi ng s, l et ' s m ak e s ur e t ha t' s
w hi te d o ut b ec au se w e' re i n t he e ra o f e le ct ro ni c f il in g
o f e ve ry th in g. O nc e i t g et s i nt o t he s ys te m, i t' s o ut
t he re f or e ve ry bo dy . A nd w e c er ta in ly d on 't w an t
s om eb od y 's n am e o r a dd re ss - - a n d e sp ec ia ll y I u nd er st an
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t ha t s om e o f y ou r c li en ts a re m in or s. D ef in it el y d on 't
w an t t he m b ei ng i de nt if ie d o ut t he re . S o, l et 's b e v er y
very careful when you're exchanging documents.
N o w, i f f or s om e r ea so n f o r t ra ck in g p ur po se s
t he n um be rs a re n ee de d i ni ti al ly , t he n f in e. Y ou c an u s
t ha t f or t ra ck in g. B ut b ef or e t h in gs g et f il ed w it h t he
c ou rt a n d g et i nt o o ur e le ct ro ni c f il in g s ys te m, g o
th ro ug h it . I c an o rd er r ed ac ti on s l at er o n b ut b y t ha t
ti me it 's a lr ea dy o ut o n t he N et a nd I c an 't ta ke it
b ac k. I f s o me bo dy g et s i n to t he s ys te m o n P AC ER , l oo ks
a t i t, a nd d is tr ib ut es i t, I c an 't o rd er t he m t o b ri ng i
b ac k t o m e.
L ik ew is e, i n c ou rt w he n y o u' r e t al ki ng a n d
t es ti fy in g, n o n ee d t o a sk a bo ut s om eb od y' s p er so na l
a dd re ss o r h om e a dd re ss b ec au se o nc e i t' s s ai d o n t he
r ec or d, i t j us t i s a h as sl e t ry in g t o g et i t r ed ac te d o n
out. S o, l et' s just be a wa re o f t hat. In this c ase it
a pp ea rs t o b e m or e t ha n m an y c ou ld h av e t ha t k in d o f
information about the individuals.
A nd I 'm n ot t ry in g t o st op y ou f ro m b ei ng a bl
t o p re se nt y ou r c as e, b ut t hi nk a bo ut w ay s w e c an a vo id
i nt er fe ri ng w it h s om eb od y' s p ri va cy . A nd y ou p ro ba bl y
h av e a lr ea dy t ho ug ht a bo ut t ha t. I j us t w a nt ed t o
emphasize it.
A re t he re a ny c on ce rn s a bo ut , g iv en t he s iz e
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o f t h e c as e, t he d ea dl ine f or t ri al ? I m ea n, n ow it
w ou ld b e v er y ea sy t o c han ge t hin gs ; b ut a m on th o r t wo
b ef or e t ri al i s n ot t he t im e to be co mi ng t o m e f or
c on ti nu an ce b ec au se - - w el l, e it he r b ec au se y ou d o n' t
t hi nk y ou h av e e no ug h d is co ve ry o r t ha t w as t he d at e t ha
y ou w er e p la nn in g o n t ak in g y ou r s ec on d h on ey mo on . Y ou
o ug ht t o h av e t ha t s ch ed ul ed a lr ea dy . I c an c ha ng e
t hi ng s n ow ; b ut a m on th o r t wo b ef or e t ri al , I 'm n ot
n ea rl y a s f o r gi vi ng a bo ut m ot io ns f or c on ti nu an ce . S o,
i s t hi s F eb ru ar y 1 3t h - - m y v an il la o rd er w ou ld h av e p ut
y ou t o t r ia l i n S ep te mb er . Y ou 'v e a s ke d f o r
F eb ru ar y 1 3th of 2 01 3. D oe s t ha t w o rk f or t he
plaintiffs?
M R. L OV E: T he t ru th i s, y ou r H on or , I b el ie v
w it h m y c on ve rs at io ns w it h J i m a nd w it h h is p re de ce ss or
A li ss a, i t' s o pt im is ti c b ec au se o f t he s iz e o f t he c as e
that we could get that. I think we all kind of agr eed o
F eb ru ar y b ec au se w e d id n' t w an t y ou t o y el l a t u s f or
a sk in g fo r Ap ri l. A nd to be p er fe ct ly h on es t - -
T HE C OU RT : W el l, n o, be li ev e m e , I h av e b ee n
o n - - p eo pl e f or ge t t hi s, b ut j ud ge s h av e a ct ua ll y
be en -- or at le as t I ' ve b ee n a tr ia l l a wy er b ef or e. A n
t ha t' s w hy I 'm a sk in g t hi s n ow i s w ha t' s i t g oi ng t o t ak
r ea li st ic al ly . O n t he o th er h an d, w ha t' s i t g oi ng t o
t ak e a nd l et 's m ov e t he c as e a lo ng ?
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M R. L OV E: W e c ou ld be r ea dy by F eb ru ary b ut
i t' s p ut ti ng e ve ry bo dy u nd er a l ot o f p re ss ur e a nd w e
c ou ld b e o ne o f t ho se t ha t s ho w up a c ou pl e m on th s o ut o
f ou r o r f iv e m on th s o ut a nd s ay , " Ju dg e, i t' s l oo ki ng
r ea ll y h ar d. W e' d l ik e a c on ti nu an ce ."
T HE C OU RT : D oe s d e fe nd an t a g re e?
MR . B OSWELL: We could go to trial in
F eb ru ar y. I w as n ot i nv ol ve d i n t he d is cu ss io ns l ea di ng
u p t o t he s et ti ng o f t hi s d at e.
T HE C OU RT : W er e y ou , M r. H ear tf ie ld ? I m ea n
i s t ha t --
M R. H EA RT FI EL D: I d id n't w ant t o a s k f o r
A pr il . I w as th e o n e t h at w as c on ce rn ed , a n d I t hi nk
F eb ru ar y i s a r ea li st ic d at e .
M R. B OS WE LL : I 'm a l it tl e c o nc er ne d a b ou t t h
e xp en se t o m y c li en t t o e xt en d t he t ra ck l on ge r t ha n
February.
T HE C OU RT : O h, o k ay . So , y ou 'r e t hi nk in g yo
c an b e r ea dy b y F eb ru ar y?
M R. B OS WE LL : Y es .
M R. H EA RT FI EL D: Y es .
T HE C OU RT : A ll r ig ht. A nd y ou 'r e th in kin g
t ha t - - t ha t' s u nu su al b ec au se u su al ly t he d ef en da nt
d oe sn 't w an t t o m ov e f or wa rd .
N ow , t el l m e a ga in n ow w hy y ou 'r e t hi nk in g
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th at m or e t ha n a y ea r f ro m n ow i s t oo s ho rt .
M R. L OV E: J us t b e ca us e o f t he p ot en ti al s iz e
of t he case , y our Honor. But le t m e b e c lear. W e're
o ka y w it h F eb ru ar y a nd - -
T HE CO UR T: O ka y.
MR . LOVE: -- p ushing i t t o F ebruary. O ur
e ar li er c on ve rs at io ns w it h t h e d ef en se s id e w er e t he y - -
Th ad w as t he re , t oo . T he y w er e t al ki ng A pr il . A li ss a
w as w an ti ng A pr il a nd t he re w er e s om e r ea l c on ce rn s o ve r
t ha t a nd w e w an te d t o b e a cc om mo da ti ng a nd a ls o o ur
e va lu at io n w as i t' s g oi ng t o b e t ig ht . B ut w e c er ta in ly
t hi nk w e c an d o i t, a nd w e' ll c om mi t t o m ov in g f or wa rd .
TH E C OURT: Well, since yo u a re new in t he
c as e, d o y ou w an t t o - - a nd e vi de nt ly y ou r p re de ce ss or
w as t al ki ng A pr il a nd m ay be M r. H ea rt fi el d w as . I m ea n,
I d on 't h av e a p ro bl em w it h F eb ru ar y. T he q ui ck er , t h e
better, from my point of view. But do you want t o
d is cu ss t hi s w it h M r. H ea rt fi el d r ea l q ui ck b ef or e y o u -
M R. BO SW EL L: S ur e.
T HE C OU RT : G o ah ea d.
(Off-the-record discussion among counsel.)
M R. L OV E: W e' re c om fo rt ab le e it he r w ay , y ou r
Honor.
TH E COURT: Okay. All right.
M R. B OS WE LL : Y ou r H o no r, I d o p e rs on al ly f ee
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more comfortable with April than February.
T HE CO UR T: O ka y.
M R. B OS WE LL : I n m y e xp er ie nc e t h e p ro ce ss o f
d es ig ni ng t he s ta ti st ic al m et ho do lo gy i f w e d o s am pl in g
i s a l wa ys c om pl ic at ed a nd t ak es l on ge r t ha n e ve ry on e
thinks.
THE COURT: Okay. All r ight. Let's make it
April, then.
M R. BO SW EL L: O ka y.
T HE C OU RT : I 'm n ot t ry in g t o p us h y ou i nt o
i t. A ct ua ll y, a s M r. H ea rt fi el d i nd ic at ed , m y g en er al i
ni ne to t en m on th s i s p len ty e nou gh t im e t o g et a t ri al
r ea dy . B ut I d o u n de rs ta nd t he re a re e xc ep ti on s a nd
so - -
M R. H EA RT FI EL D: I 'm g oi ng t o w i pe t hi s
e xp er ie nc e f ro m m y m em or y, a nd i t w on 't o cc ur i n t he n ex
case.
T HE C OU RT : I t w on' t c om e u p ag ai n?
A ll r ig ht . I f b o th s id es a re m or e c o mf or ta bl
w it h A pr il - - a nd I d o u nd er st an d t he p ro bl em s w it h t he
s am pl in g a n d t he s ta ti st ic s y ou ' re i nv ol ve d w it h h er e ,
a nd t h at 's wh y I 'm g o in g i nt o th is . A ll r i ght . S o,
w e' ll m ak e t ha t A pr il ; a nd t ha t w il l e xt en d o ut p ro ba bl y
s om e o f t he o th er d ea dl in es a ls o .
A ft er w e' re t hr ou gh h er e i f p er ha ps c ou ns el
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c ou ld g et t og et he r w it h M s. M ag ee a nd l et 's , y ou k no w,
ta ke a lo ok a t h ow t he o the r d at es wi ll t he n c ha ng e a nd
l et 's m ak e s ur e - - I m ea n, y ou 'v e g iv en a p ro po sa l t he re
B ut s in ce w e' re n ow m ov in g i t o ut t o A pr il , l et 's t ak e a
l oo k a t t ho se a nd g et s om et hi ng r at io na l t ha t w il l w or k
f or yo u a nd w or k f or u s.
J us t so y ou k no w, I s et a n um be r o f m ot io ns ,
s uc h a s d is po si ti ve d ea dl in es , b as ed o n t he t ri al d at e s
t ha t y ou c an g et a r ul in g b ef or e y ou s pe nd a ll t ha t m on e
p re pa ri ng f or t ri al . P ro ba bl y a g oo d 5 0 p er ce nt , m ay be
3 3 p er ce nt , s om ew he re i n t he re , o f m on ey i s s pe nt i n t ha
a ct ua l t ri al p re pa ra ti on ; a nd i f y o u' ve g ot t hi s g re at
m ot io n f or s um ma ry j ud gm en t, y ou p ro ba bl y w an t m e t o r ul
on i t befo re you spend all that time. But to do that ,
y ou' ve go t to ge t t ha t f ile d so t ha t I h av e t im e t o d o
i t. So , t h at de ad li ne I b ac k u p f ro m t h e t r ia l a n d d on
gi ve a lo t of fl ex ib il it y on . T he ot he rs , m uc h m or e
f le xi bl e. S o, w he n w e' re t hr ou gh h er e, m ee t w it h
M s. M ag ee. L et 's c om e up w it h a s ch ed ul e b as ed o ff n ow
A pr il o f 2 0 13 .
A ny th in g e ls e, t he n , f ro m t he p la in ti ff 's
p oi nt o f v ie w, e it he r t ha t I ' ve m is se d o r h av en 't c ov er e
o r w ou ld j us t b e h el pf ul t o b e d is cu ss ed s in ce w e' re a ll
here together?
M R. L OV E: I d on 't t hi nk s o, yo ur H on or.
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T HE C OU RT : W ha t a bo ut f ro m d ef en da nt 's p oi nt
o f v ie w ?
M R. B O SW EL L: N o, y o ur H on or .
T HE C OU RT : O ka y. A ga in, I 'l l re mi nd
e ve ry bo dy a bo ut t he d if fe re nc e b et we en o ur l oc al r ul es o
d is cl os ur e a nd t he F ed er al R ul es , t he c om me nt o f J ud ge
Ward that one of the best ways t o lose a case in the
E as te rn D is tr ic t i s t o n ot c om p ly w it h t he d is co ve ry
r ul es , a nd t he n r em in d e ve ry bo dy o f t he m ag is tr at e
j ud ge s' h ot li ne t o h an dl e p ro bl em s a t d e p os it io ns . N ot
t ha t I 'm i nv it in g t he m, b ut w e t ry t o m ov e t hi ng s a lo ng
a s q ui ck ly a s p os si bl e.
I f o n s om et hi ng l ik e t ha t a m ag is tr at e j ud ge
j us t i sn 't a va il ab le , i t' s p ro ba bl y b et te r, r at he r t ha n
f il in g l en gt hy m ot io ns a nd p ap er wo rk , j us t t o c al l m y
c ha mb er s a nd s ee i f I w an t t o j us t go a he ad a nd h av e a
q ui ck t el ep ho ni c h ea ri ng r ig ht t he n t o d ea l w it h t ha t
issue.
O ka y. I t l o ok s l i ke t he r es po ns e d e ad li ne - -
t hi s j us t w as f il ed o n t he 1 7t h, t he m ot io n t o d is mi ss ;
s o, i t wi ll b e a w hi le b ef ore t ha t' s g oi ng t o b e r ip e.
O ka y. A ny th in g e l s e, t he n , f r om p la in ti ff 's
p oi nt o f v ie w?
M R. L OV E: I d o n ot b el ie ve, yo ur H on or.
T HE C O UR T: F ro m d ef en da nt ?
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M R. B O SW EL L: N o, y o ur H on or .
TH E COURT: All r ight. Then thank y ou f or
b ei ng h er e. Y ou a re e xc us ed , a nd t he c ou rt is in r ec es s
(Proceedings concluded, 11:18 a.m.)
COURT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
I H ER EB Y C ER TI FY T HA T O N T HI S D AT E, J UL Y 1 7,
2 01 2 , T H E F OR EG OI NG I S A C OR RE CT T RA NS CR IP T F RO M T HE
RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS.
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