01.28.06 - PUBLIC Meeting Log - General VVC Agenda « on: January 26, 2008, 09:52:15 AM » This is an edited version of the Chat Log of the Vampire Community Leader Discussion held on January 28, 2006. This log is edited strictly for length and readability. The edits are as follows: Almost all pre-meeting material was deleted. A lot of greetings, agreement, random comments, and humor was deleted. Some tangents were deleted. A few statements which were broken up into several posts have been rearranged in a slightly different order, to be easier to follow. There is an unedited version of the log available for people who wish to read the entire thing, but this log is meant to show the meat of the discussion without requiring someone to read the entire 100 page version. Editing done by Camille, so if you're annoyed because you feel something important got deleted, I'm the one to be annoyed at. [Further edited by Sanguinarius for punctuation, capitalization, and spelling.] The Transcript for the Full Version of the Log can be downloaded from here <http://www.kheperu.org/files/VampireDiscussionUnedited.doc> in .doc format. In Attendance: House LostHaven - Gabriel, WalkerofShadows, Kaine, Aki (logging) House of Nephilim - TwistedThorns Smoke And Mirrors - LadyCG, Craze, Jay Frost Sanguinarius.org - Sanguinarius, Mirae (Lady Slinky), Yami_ House of Simion - Sim, Agar House Kheperu - Michelle Belanger, Aarin, Cammey Further Down the Rabbit Hole - Vorsuc, Twilight SphynxCatVP - SphynxCatVP Dark Dreams - Ravena_ Psychicvampire.org - Lono Khan - Khan (represented himself) Shadowlore - Mairi Sarasvati sanguine vampire support page - Sarasvati Bit Nibiru - Kai = Raine (they were at the same place) The Log of the Discussion: From Michelle: Should we consider making the log public afterwards? From Michelle: That's something that has been a downfall of things like this previously -- closed sessions give rise to speculation, seem like super-secret club meetings, etc., From Gabriel: as well we have someone logging right now on here From Gabriel: which will be provided if wanted afterwards From Gabriel: ok all, we're running a lil late on starting this thing so I'd like to get it started if it's alright with you From Gabriel: Well, the first few things I'd like to say is thank you for coming. as for the log we do have Aki here for the sole purpose of logging. each of you will get an unedited log after we're done here From Gabriel: As well I would actually like to have all of your permission to host this meeting

From Michelle: Given, with many thanks. From JayF: by all means here From Sarasvati: granted From Kai: Sure From Sim: granted From Sanguinarius: go for it From Mairi: Granted From LadyCG: of course you did the work for it, lol, seems fair From Agar: mk From Cammey: agreed From Aarin: you got it From Gabriel: hehe From WalkerofShadows: granted From Craze: *blinks* You mean you weren't already hosting it? Oh, I mean, yeah, given... From Lono: yup From SphynxCatVP: yes From Gabriel: Thanks *Smile* I'd like to make an opening statement on this meeting as many of you have been asking me why we're here, in that I'd also like to go over some rules for the night as well to .. not give Sangi such a big scrolling headache From Gabriel: so here's my opening statement and rule speak From Gabriel: After which you will have a chance to speak your mind, opinions, etc... First thing, even though it sounds a little corny just go with me on it From Gabriel: I would like to take a moment and do a visualization, with all of you...I'd like you all to see us all sitting at a rather large sleek circular desk with a nice comfortable chair From Gabriel: the fluffy ones :p From Gabriel: if you'd like From Gabriel: behind each of you is a closet... I'd like everyone, in their minds, to stand up out of their chairs... and turn around and open it.... inside you'll find hangers.. one for egos, one for titles, and one for all the things you've done in the past.. I'd like you to hang all of those up for a moment .. and during this meeting. *Smile*

From Gabriel: And I'd like everyone to walk away from the vampthe hard cold floor .. no fluffy seats *Smile* we have an opportunity tonight to show we can all sit together be equals with one another and even through like and dislike have 'conversation' that will actually be helpful to all From Gabriel: ok, I'm gonna cut from the speech Michelle... this is how it is.. #1 we have a community that we can make even better, we have things we can fix.. we have the ability to do something here that can last or fall to pieces right here tonight From Gabriel: we're sitting on the floor .. ALL things start from the ground up.. and without ego, without pride and all these other things that tarnish us, we can have a chance to begin something. NOT a council From Gabriel: NOT a group From Gabriel: and NOT a website where each one of us preaches how ***** special we are From Gabriel: I was asked why I was doing this thing From Gabriel: WHY I cared. why bother, we couldn't put us in a room and get along From Gabriel: well you know with the conversation going the way it is.. WE CAN.. let's use it.. NOT everyone likes one another sitting in this room tonight From Gabriel: But we sure the hell can talk to one another From Gabriel: which is why From Gabriel: right now I'm invoking a rule From Gabriel: we're gonna light a symbolic torch From Gabriel: and no one speaks without it.. this torch will allow 15 mins of time to introduce yourself, your thoughts ideas and why you want to be here, your worries, etc.. you Don't have to use that whole time From Craze: Gabriel should go first, he's the host. :p From Gabriel: ok, From Gabriel: I'm Gabriel "Gabe" most know me, some don't. I'm the founder of House Lost Haven locally based in Sacramento, California, as well around the states with chapters I've been in the community since around 98 actively participating in 99 .. What I would like to see done here tonight is us possibly form a type of Geneva convention where we can all come together and discuss ideas to improve our community, functions, in general and overall. I think that does not require a council but a large group of us, friend or foe, sitting together and speaking on things and taking things from all angles.. From Gabriel: I think we as a community and community leaders have a great chance to speak to one another openly like we really should be doing anyhow. From Gabriel: I think that we spite one another way too much, in the open for needless reasons.. and I think it needs to be more creatively put together for good uses From Gabriel: exactly... My question is this.. and open.. we've done this individually between houses.. (you can answer in your intro)... but why haven't we done it as a whole?

From Gabriel: *tosses the torch to Twisted* From TwistedThorns: Pretty much I am here as an observer on behalf of House of Nephilim....Pij has not been around and I have not had a chance to discuss any issues he would like seen addressed. I would like to see people get along....various groups not squabbling between... From TwistedThorns: between each other From TwistedThorns: go on Sangi..... From Sanguinarius: I'm the founder of Sanguinarius.org and I am pretty much in the same mind as GanriekZ on this thing. The closest there was used to be a Yahoo Group...dang it, I can't recall the name at the moment...someone know? Pandora used to run it From Sanguinarius: but she had to dissolve it due to considerations in her personal life From Sanguinarius: I didn't have an intro ready. Not good at them... *hides* From Sanguinarius: yeah, GVN - Global Vampire Network From Gabriel: LadyCG: mind intro? From LadyCG: Greetings I am Lady CG, owner of Smoke and Mirrors Message baord, Author of Practical Vampyrism for Modern Vampyres From LadyCG: My entourage is Craze, my Head Admin and my Second Admin, my son, Jay Frost From LadyCG: I have been around the vamp communities since about '94, but became very active in about 98 / 99 when I became moderator of Vampiric Egroup From LadyCG: Three and a half years ago I created Smoke and Mirrors. From LadyCG: I think everyone who knows me knows that I am a big fan of the vamp community being all for one and one for all From LadyCG: I believe that united we are far stronger than we are divided From LadyCG: I am in favor of any kind of dialogue that furthers that cause as it is very dear to me From LadyCG: Thank you for Inviting me Gabe. I am grateful for an opportunity to get to know my counterparts in other communities... Passes torch back to Gabe From Gabriel: nod, I'd like to fix something that lady CG, just did that was very rude of me not to do , and I think Sangi wants to fix it too by the pm I just got From Gabriel: let's intro our guests as well From Gabriel: I brought with me WalkerofShadows, my international head of our house, aka: wolf_kin. He's done alot of publishings in the community, as well websites. as well with me is Kaine who is our head of our guards (security) for ppl when they visit etc.. as well From Gabriel: Aki who is logging the entire chat

From Sanguinarius: My guests are Mirae, who is the main Admin for the Vamnpiric Community Message Board and Yami, who [please delete these stupid typos...]. My third guest couldn't make it (unless they're here and I just haven't seen them talk). From LadyCG: Sim.. your turn From Sim: Hi...I'm Sim...and I've been a vampaholic for over ten years now. From Sim: I'm one of the heads of House of Simion, based out of Texas with worldwide membership. From Sim: I brought Agar out tonight because he has a good handle on the situations going down in the Austin/San Antonio area. From Sim: I have no expectations from the Community in general. I am almost tired of seeing groups made to offer peace and solutions. From Sim: But hey, I'm gonna sit here and see what unfolds anyway. From Sim: I'm done. From Michelle: All right, here goes... From Michelle: I'm Michelle Belanger, founder of House Kheperu, author of the Codex. Been active in this community since 1991. From Michelle: I admire Gabe's ideals in trying to make this work. Personally, I Don't know if it will .. I've seen it tried and am, like many of the older folks here, a bit jaded about us getting along. I think we *should* but I Don't know if we can. From Michelle: My interest personally here is to hear what the community wants. How it wants itself presented. As someone who writes about the community and is contacted by other writers and such, From Michelle: I want to be able to offer a fair representation of everyone's opinions, not just my own. Frequently, however, folks Don't always speak up. If this gets people talking, I'm all for it. From Michelle: I brought Aarin with me -- my second in the Priest Caste, because he's got to learn the politics someday From Michelle: Cammey is a chronicler, that's why she's here. From Michelle: And with that, I'm done. From Vorsuc: For those not familiar with me, I'm part of a community founded for promoting the idea that vampires are "normal" people, coming together despite personal beliefs and spirituality. From Vorsuc: So the reason I'm here as we look to have the same thing on the agenda here and give full support to someone like Gabe who is willing to put the hard work and effort into it. From Vorsuc: I've brought Twilight, one of our more outspoken and vocal members. At that, I'll say "done". From Vorsuc: Next. From SphynxCatVP: I'm SphynxCatVP, owner of my site, SphynxCat's Real Vampires Support Page, and I've been active online since around 1998. My site promotes the idea that anyone can learn to "get a handle" on their vampirism without needing a group, and by not forgetting that some things can be dealt with by ordinary means

From SphynxCatVP: I'm all for community togetherness, but I've seen so many come and go so I'm a bit jaded there as well. My efforts will stand, regardless of "community togetherness" or not. From SphynxCatVP: go ahead. From Gabriel: Ravena From Ravena: okay From Ravena: Well, I'm not really the founder of anything, those I do have my own site. My involvement in the community is in an online capacity because the people in the community I would associate with in person aren't anywhere near me From Ravena: I write articles, I suppose the most popular is "Enabling in the Vampire Community" and I'm advocate for down to earth approaches and not getting lost in la la land. From Ravena: and I'm here because I think people need to stop sniping and backstabbing auit making their forums and chat rooms breeding grounds for this sort of sniping etc. Hopefully we can find a common ground and the high school antics stop. From Ravena: end From Lono: I'm Lono. I've been in the community since 1998, owner of the psyvamp info exchange after Jack, (now defunct) currently the owner of psychicvampire.org/psivamp.org...and a fan of Ravener pm. From Gabriel: <-- speaks fruitbat.. he's a fan of Ravena's enabling article *Smile* From Lono: yes...I'm a fruitbat with a lag problem tonight unfortunately..I'd like to help the community in any way possible...ok I'm done.. From Khan: I'm Khan. Though a member of a few groups, I come tonight representing only myself, a tired old man.. From Khan: Tired of psy vs. sang, he said/she said, he stole this/she stole that... From Khan: So I'm here in the hope that wiser minds can come together and help end the foolish crap that tears us apart, so that we can get things like learning and helping those who need it... From Khan: With that, I'm done for now. From Mairi: I'm Mairi, founder of ShadowLore. Shadowlore is an organization that represents ALL Kin, not just vampirewide, that offer support and friendship both online and off From Mairi: I've been active in the community since 1999 From Mairi: I'm skeptical about whether there can be unity for the vamp community but not adverse to trying From Mairi: I've seen a lot of these types of efforts come and go...but if we can be friends than I see no reason why we can't work together for common goals From Mairi: I brought no one else with me.......I'm it From Mairi: Next

From Gabriel: saras From Sarasvati: I'm Sarasvati, founder of, well, a webpage *L* that has been down for over a year and is being re-made currently From Sarasvati: No beating, promise! Anyway, I tend to be on the outskirts of the community more then I would like. It leaves me a bit isolated, I realize, so I hope through this and other meetings to get to know the various groups, ideas, thoughts, paths, etc. I tend to get along with everyone... even the trolls seem to like me for some reason *L* From Sarasvati: Umm... I tend to be medical/analytical minded, will admit. The edge place that I have kept has left me really only hearing about some of the sniping and such now... so I hope we can get past what I wasn't previously aware of *L* From Sanguinarius: I hate to, but I gotta leave.....eyestrain's getting too bad Sad From Sanguinarius: Sorry, peoples...*waves and goes to rest her eyes* Sanguinarius just vanished from the Teleconference! From Kai: I am Raine, founder and head of Bit Nibiru From Kai: I am here under the hope that this may lead to a "UN" of sorts, allowing for civil communication between the people of our community where our different beliefs and practices can be maintained and respected. From Kai: I believe that there is much we can each learn and take away from this experience; if this leads to nothing more than a few hospitalities extended, then it will have been worth the effort. From Kai: With me is my guard, companion, and second in command, Kmerathaetra (Kai) who shares the same mind as I've mentioned more or less. From Kai: As my resources grow, I would like to provide the opportunity for a gathering such as this to take place in person. From Sim: Just for the record, I still own the rights to 'Vampyre Community Alliance, but they're up for grabs if you guys want to use it for this purpose. From Twilight: Sim, that's a nice idea and a good use for it IMO From Sim: I think so, too, Twi. About time it gets used for something, eh? From Craze: *is trying to plan a 2007 meetup in NYC..pendng interest, of course From Vorsuc: Kai - I think that's great, but obviously an online meeting would be more accessible and reach a greater number of people. From Lady Slinky: on a financial and logistical level From Vorsuc: it would however, remove the interruptions. From Kai: in response to transportation and such, that and accomodations would be provided From LadyCG: a noble endeavor, Kai

From Gabriel: I'd like to say some things real quick then lets see what everyone else thinks From Gabriel: #1 we have community issues as it is.. things we can actually talk about.. tonight.. #2 Would you guys be in favor of a non biased UN or geneva? where we come together no matter likes and dislikes and speak .. #3 I do not want to host these all the time I like for us to trade off who hosts From Gabriel: What do you guys think about that? From Kai: perhaps we may all share contact information to get in touch after this conference? From Craze: Gabe: I think a non biased body of some form is a good idea, but I'm not sure how realistic it is From LadyCG: I think it's good for us leaders to get to know each other From Gabriel: Tonight is NOT about making us unified.. it's starting something that's it.. an opening to conversations and thoughts From Michelle: First step: get talking. From Craze: People are biased, its human nature, so I'm not sure if a totally Non Biased body is possible. From Kaine: Craze: But a neutral group is possible From Craze: Kaine: Absolutely, I agree. From LadyCG: I agree Michelle From Cammey: non biased I Don't think will happen. There's no such thing as "non-biased" From Sarasvati: #2 - yes #3 understandable...#1 was just a statement, right? From Michelle: I think realistically, we should do these for a while, see how they work, then consider expanding the purpose beyond communication From LadyCG: and we can disagree about things without disliking each other.. we From Khan: I would be happy with just civil, for a start From Cammey: we're biased by who got invited - note not Todd or Toddites From Cammey: now, I think that'll work a lot better, frankly From Cammey: but it's not non-biased From SphynxCatVP: #2 sure, #3 makes sense From Twilight: Sim, I think that would be useful, to have a group people can post their thoughts or ideas to From Sim: That way we Don't all have to meet up at one time. From Twilight: Exactly my thoughts

From Kai: civil is quite acceptable From Gabriel: Craze: non biased body being, people with biasm coming together to balance one anothers biasm's From Mairi: The thing is that most if not all the people here can and are civil to each other online and off From Mairi: So you have a good group to start with From LadyCG: it would be nice to have one place to find other group leaders instead of having to post 10 places to reach each person From Michelle: Cammey, others: start with this, expand, invite others as the current group works From Gabriel: Cammey: Todd didn't get invited because he announced his retirement I made sure that was posted... AS well, I figured it wouldn't be good for a first meeting.. if in the future we wish to invite them by all means... right now we need to be civil I thought From Craze: I mean, if we, or community leaders, can't be civil to one another, how can ANYONE expect everyone else to be civil? From Lady Slinky: So how is this not going to be just one more individual group? From Gabriel: Todd and Don being here would cause an uproar and we'd have our focus all over the map From Kai: Contact info should be listed in the log if possible From Cammey: Gabe ~ Not disagreeing, just pointing out. From Michelle: Slinky: good question. From Craze: Kai, yeah that's a good idea From SphynxCatVP: *twitch* From Gabriel: Cammey: yeah I know but I was making the reason known From Michelle: Can we all agree to make this THE ONE -- is that even possible? From Khan: I will From Lady Slinky: The one what though? From LadyCG: if this is a public log I think we should find another way to exchange ier than on here From Cammey: CG ~ Good point. From SphynxCatVP: yea From Craze: Michelle, I think every group starts out as one, small, individual group, and with work, time and interest and PATIENCE, it grows From Lady Slinky: Realisticly what does unity mean for the community?

From Sim: <Vampire Alliance Site Deleted> if you need it. From Michelle: For starters, just one collective group of people talking. From Mairi: I will From Gabriel: let's all give it one last chance.. From LadyCG: Slinky I think it means a better approach to working together From Gabriel: let's seriously TRY From Kai: perhaps a site could be created for this purpose alone, organization and communications would be much more efficient that way From Michelle: I don't know if we can achieve unity, at least not in the sense of a community of homogenized beliefs & practices. From Michelle: But I think we can achieve communication From Craze: We all want the same thing,it sounds like, From Khan: Isn't that the point, Michelle? From WalkerofShadows: I personally think homegenised beliefs and practices would be Unhealthy for the community From LadyCG: we can learn to be friends. It's a good place to start From Agar: I think all unity is, is communication From Craze: less backbiting/stabbing in the community, and more unity and aid and the like From Lady Slinky: I would like to suggest that one way we try which others have not is to work with each others' strengths instead of making yet another group. From Gabriel: Michelle: we can't.. let's leave religion and beliefs out of it *Smile* let's gather for who we are not for what we believe From Michelle: MY question, having stood in this same space in other times, with other names, is are we ready to really make this work? Are we mature enough as a community now? From Twilight: I'm not confident we'll ever have "unity" in that sense Michelle, but we need to be able to talk about important issues or there's not much point From Craze: Michelle: I think we could be. From Michelle: Gabe: that was my point. Some people think unity means we have to agree. From JayF: do we have the base blocks enough to make it as a community?? From LadyCG: we won't know until we try again, Michelle. We as a community have come a long way since COVICA From Lady Slinky: I am not sure unity is what we really want though

From Michelle: CG: hells, yes. From Craze: Then those poeple still have some growing up to do, People and groups can be unified without agreeing 100% of the time From Vorsuc: Will we ever be mature enough? we each have an individual choice to either push our own agenda and beliefs or to come together and promote a unified approach and view to help better represent us outside of the community. From Michelle: And to be fair, the spirit of this is more pure. From LadyCG: we Don't have to agree... we just need to get along.. live and let Live From Khan: And be able to agree to disagree From Vorsuc: If we are unable to take a serious, open-minded approach to the community and other members, how can we expect people outside of it to do the same? From Gabriel: Vorsuc: this isn't FOR our agendas... this isn't FOR our fame.. this isn't for money.. in fact if it needs to be laid in stone I'll be the first to do it From LadyCG: people can disagree and still like and even care about each other's well being From Gabriel: it's for OUR future and our children's From Lono: Vorsuc ..it has grown since I've seen it...granted it does go through cycles.. From Kai: with moderation set up, those who cannot participate without bias or conflict could be asked to lead [leave?] by a majority vote or something similar From Sarasvati: Will agree here with those saying that unity and agreement are two different things...there is the "agree to disagree" and the mature tactic of getting along while not necessarily agreeing on all points From LadyCG: I agree about for our children.. I have adult kids who are vampyres From Craze: Agrees with Vorsuc, if we can't get along and if we let our community be torn apart by, what is, in all actuality, small disagreements, then how can we ever achieve unity of any form, or even civility? From Vorsuc: Gabe - you are making me teary. Seriously though, I understand people's reservations and you have a choice to either commit 100% to the opportunity and see it fall knowing you gave it your all, or sit in the sidelines waiting to say "I told you so". From JayF: I can relate to the joys of having a mentor from a young age From Gabriel: Sara: and thats the important point From Sim: OK...so we all agree. From LadyCG: I care about a community my kids and grandkids can live with From Sim: What's the next step?

From Michelle: Considerations: who gets tapped to participate? How do we judge? Who gets excluded? Why? -- these are considerations raised from past incarnations of this same movement, not thru Gabe, thru others. From Craze: OK, guys, if I Don't get off the computer now, I won't get up for work in the morning... From Twilight: I care about a community that's not an embarassment to be part of From Cammey: Twilight ~ Agreed. From Vorsuc: Twilight - Here, Here. From JayF: I would enjoy to stay forever tonight, but I unfortunately have to be up in the morning From Ravena: well, one good thing about this is that we can put an actual person to what before was just a nickname or name From Gabriel: Vorsuc: Hey, it happens or it doesn't.. we can SAY things here but as we all know as leaders as designers etc... It doesn't stop with I said I did it.. we have to DO it Craze just vanished from the Teleconference! From Mairi: I've got to go too.......thanks for inviting me Gabe. Talk to you all later Mairi just vanished from the Teleconference! From Vorsuc: Gabe - so, let us put together an action plan for next meeting. We have a name, a space... what realisitically can we achieve? greater promotion? founding ideals? a list of issues? JayF just vanished from the Teleconference! From Sarasvati: We must be the change we wish to see... in choosing those to participate, it will be a judgement call, but cannot be a popularity contests... I think we have to again go back to the maturity point to maintain an environment where we can all discuss points From Lono: I agree..in order for something to come together and not all apart the core structure must be sound. From Michelle: Right now, we *almost* have a community, but what we really have are a lot of little communities, not all of whom communicate - which is what's necessary for a community. Where we stand now, we have the opportunity to connect into something less fragmented than we've been before From LadyCG: I think it's a worthy goal, Michelle From Khan: As do I From WalkerofShadows: Less fragmenting would indeed be a good thing From Twilight: Michelle, I agree with that completely, we're far too fragmented as things are right now and that has to be something we address From Gabriel: Vorsuc: The #1 goal is not funding per se, it's us talking about community, it's us putting together community and making it fun again without the torment of who's house/group do you belong to From Lono: true Gabe

From LadyCG: I say as far as who to invite.. let's start with the people easiest to deal with and work up to the harder ones, lol From Sarasvati: *nods* That I do see alot of from the outskirts...the fragmentation... there are so many groups I am not aware of simply due to the fragmentation. From Ravena: I don't think anyone needs to be the get along gang to get things accomplished From Lady Slinky: I am not sure everyone is on the same page as to what unity in the community really means. From Michelle: I'm not saying it's not. I'm trying to raise the questions that need to be d & answered if this is really going to work ... this time. From LadyCG: our new alliance is still young From Michelle: CG: agreed. From Vorsuc: I think the fragmentation comes from a difference in approaches though. We each have our "members" who subscribe to different thoughts. Most are aware of other groups and have taken an active decision to be part of one and not another. From Gabriel: we want everyone involved.. we want their ideas and what they have to say From Ravena: I think the key is respect, and of course that is earned not given From Gabriel: but at a pace From Gabriel: or it can fall apart From Vorsuc: We'll never remove that fragmentation, but we can look past the issues that cause it and look to the "bigger picture" and come together on those issues. From Sarasvati: Agreed, Vorsuc From Aarin: so let's start small...with the people in this chat From LadyCG: I think its OK to be different, Vorsuc, and still live and let live From Michelle: Vorsuc: those differences are crucial, though. We need to teach each other, teach ourselves to respect the differences and take strength from our common ground. From Vorsuc: LadyCG - we do *Wink* From Khan: I agree with Aarin From LadyCG: it's a good place to start From Lady Slinky: So what exactly is the goal? From Sim: These are the same arguments we have every time. From LadyCG: the goal is to get to know each other at first, I think

From Michelle: Yup From Aarin: get people talking From Sim: And we always say we can get through them. From Sim: So let's actually do it From Michelle: So, we're talking. Now what? From Kai: we need order above all else for now From Khan: A place for communication between different entities From Gabriel: Lady Slinky: right now... to make a house of cards on the cold cement ground :p From Sim: And stop becoming a mockery. From Agar: We're talking. We keep talking..., and we keep the communication, to start the foundation of everything. From Gabriel: Sim: agreed From Sim: I'm offering a truce from my end on behalf of my group of oddballs. From Vorsuc: Michelle - only if we make vampirism ABOUT those differences. If a certain spiritual or mental approach is key to vampirism, you effectively make it about that sole approach and others who Don't follow it "aren't our kind of vampires". From Gabriel: Sim: as well as I From Ravena: would it be appropriate to form some kind of way to communicate outside of meetings? From Cammey: Ravena ~ I think that's a good idea. From LadyCG: I'd like that Ravena From Cammey: Sim ~ agreed on the "stop becoming a mockery" From Lono: lol Sim From Michelle: Here are things that should concern our community: internally, how do we get along with one another, are we a healthy place for people to grow? From Sarasvati: *suddenly realizes the time* Eep, have to run...Wolf will be home soon and dinner is needed heated *Razz* From Sim: We talk more often. From Sim: We learn that sarcasm is just that. From Michelle: Externally: media portrayals. They know we're here. They want to see. What do we show them? How do we control/choose what is shown?

From Sim: We learn, too, that every opinion matters. From Sim: Night Saras. From Ravena: because so far, most of you are still just a name, since what was stated I already knew From Ravena: a person with the name would be nice From Gabriel: Michelle: it's gonna take a bit for us to be that healthy place.. let's all take it slow.. and move covering our every steps to make sure we do it right.. seriously.. we have a chance to NOT ***** up.. Smile let's not ***** up From Lady Slinky: looks like a lot of different pages to me. From LadyCG: We Don't have to have all the answers to all the questions about how to proceed tonight. We can work it out as we go Sarasvati just vanished from the Teleconference! From Michelle: Ravena: I think that's probably very important to us getting along. From Michelle: Consider: many of us run websites, groups, etc., For those who Don't know us as people, what are we? We're icons of our groups. From Vorsuc: Michelle - control is dangerous. We know they'll only speak to a handful of people and they may or may not be representative of the community, feedback from A&E's documentary showed that. The alternative as you suggest is dictating to people what they...can and can't say. From Michelle: Many people only see us as the representation of the opinions and beliefs put forth in our groups, not as people who have lives, jobs, sense of humor. From Gabriel: question: do we really want a website in this? From Sim: No. From Cammey: Vorsuc ~ it's more about drowning out the bullshit with something worth hearing From Vorsuc: While I'm all for not having "raving lunatics" being mistaken as indicative of the community, I Don't like the idea of "control" and more. From Sim: Just an area we can get together on. From Ravena: yes, I agree Michelle.. I mean thus far, you're that Michelle who runs House Kheperu and wrote that book, that's about as much as I know From Gabriel: or are we a bunch of websites and house founders coming together to speak From Sim: A site in the future. From Gabriel: how far do we want to take it? From SphynxCatVP: there's a ton of sites already

From Cammey: much as the pagans/wiccans drown out their loonies with the people who know what they're talking about. From Ravena: that was just one example of course From Sim: Once we know where we stand. From Michelle: With the media, we can't always control who they talk to. From Vorsuc: Cammey - Exactly. If we can have a vocal group of "sane" vampires, the fringe will be seen as exactly that. From Gabriel: Sphynx: I agree From WalkerofShadows: I would agree with Sim, keep a site out of it for now. Just have a place for people to talk. From Michelle: They talk to who's visible, who's available, who fits the "image" they want to portray. From Michelle: So we use that. From Lady Slinky: I would like to see a place where the currently existing resources are brought together. From Lono: true Michelle...I think I know it better than most here From Cammey: Vorsuc ~ frankly, we can't control what nutballs say anyway, but we can point the media to good people to talk to From Twilight: I think a yahoo group would be much more productive to start, and Sim has already offered that From LadyCG: I thought we did pretty well on the Documentary From Michelle: I'm one of the people the media uses as a resource. So tell me what you want. From Michelle: CG too From Vorsuc: Michelle - I Don't wish to sound rude, but I Don't think using you as a platform will work. You have a deep and visible spiritual nature, one highly specific to HK. From Lady Slinky: I hate yahoo but if someone is offering up a site we can whip up something without too much trouble that will work much better then yahoo From Michelle: Here's my thing: I get asked by people to describe the community. I know HK, but I Don't know everyone else here, unless there's communication. From Michelle: I'm more than willing to at least make an attempt to present everyone in an equal light. From LadyCG: you know Michelle.. that is why I joined HK's forums... From LadyCG: I'm Sang.. I NEED to know more about you and yours From Vorsuc: Michelle - but should the onus be on the community to talk to YOU, when you discuss it in the media? From Agar: Alright, here's an idea, we create a permanent place to chat like this.

From Michelle: The way I see it, our spiritual beliefs are how we interpret our vampirism on a personal level. From Michelle: The vampirism is something we all share on a group level. From Michelle: A lot of our bickering arises from confusing the personal stuff, From Twilight: Well, we can all go around joining everyone else's forums and belong to too many to keep straight, or we can have one place to at least TRY to generate some common ground From Vorsuc: I wouldn't expect someone discussing the gay community in the media, when corrected to comment "well gays didn't approach me and tell me what to say". From Gabriel: ok ok, hold up guys were going a little off topic.. this isn't bash Michelle night... what the hell? we're starting a ground here... the rest of the questions that you can ask to Michelle will come later From Gabriel: to prove your opinions or ask her in person From Sim: Nice point, Twilight. From Ravena: all of that is manipulated anyway - it'd be nice to know the real person, not their PR info sheet, was part of my point From Cammey: Vorsuc ~ Regardless of personal takes on things, Michelle's got the contacts - that's the starting point, like it or not. Lady CG is probably the only other person with that background From LadyCG: I like the one place, Idea, though I already belong to many or most of the groups represented here, lol From Cammey: Though I do agree perhaps it's best to all get educated on each other's views From Michelle: Vorsuc: I would hope that anyone here, if approached by the media, would do his or her honest best to present everyone fairly. From Gabriel: what I'm saying is.. this isnt about Michelle From Gabriel: it's about all of us.. SHE has been on A&E so has CG, and.. who cares? From Michelle: It should be about the community. From LadyCG: to me it's ALL about community... From Gabriel: if she can take the time to be here and go "I want everyone's opinions cause I haven't had them before" -a Then that shows something From LadyCG: if I may say so.. I Don't know if any of you heard about a boy's life being saved this week From LadyCG: it took 3 communities working together to do it From LadyCG: but we did Gabriel is nodding his head affirmatively. From Michelle: So let's forget the external issues for a moment. Let's focus internally.

From Twilight: Yes, it should, and we need a place to talk about things that affect ALL of the community, not just the more visible members and/or houses From Gabriel: Vorsuc: later when we get to a ground where were stable.. raise it again *Smile* From LadyCG: my point is THAT is what community is about.. working together to help From Vorsuc: Gabe - that's at the bottom of a VERY long list *Wink* From WalkerofShadows: *agrees with LadyCG* From Michelle: ::nods:: From Gabriel: Vorsuc: we're never stable :p but you know what I mean.. when we've actually DONE things and seriously made an attempt From Cammey: though I'm not sure it can be solved right now. I know people may object From Cammey: but do you think an email list is a good idea? From Cammey: it prevents one person from having to play courrier to everyone else From LadyCG: if we can work together in an emergency.. and we all know we can and will... why not all the time, or at least most of it? From Michelle: So a place to meet and talk some more? From Gabriel: May I ask a question From Gabriel: *waits* From Ravena: not sure there's another way to communicate besides some kind of list From Gabriel: There was a hurricane in Lousiana not to long ago.. im sure you've heard about it From Gabriel: There was a house affected by it.. "house saint germain" ... How many of us knew they were having that problem.. how many of us helped... these are the things I'm talking about.. we need to be closer From Gabriel: New York From Gabriel: 911 From Gabriel: etc. From Gabriel: WE NEED to get this shit figured out From Gabriel: it's our duty From Gabriel: to ourselves From Michelle: Why not schedule chats like this once a month? From LadyCG: and those who CAN attend do...

From Kai: this format is too unstructured to communicate properly From Michelle: Scheduling's a *****, I know, but those who want to really try, show up. We post the logs where *everyone* can see -- each of us on our own sites, for example. From LadyCG: we might not always make it to chat all the time, but those who do can still talk From SphynxCatVP: *agrees with Kai* From Cammey: Regular meetings I think are necessary, be it monthly, quarterly, etc. From Vorsuc: Quarterly? From Vorsuc: with informal monthly meetings? From Gabriel: who's hosting the next one? Sim? From Sim: Yeah. From Sim: Get me a list. From Ravena: still doesn't address the issue of how some of us Don't know each other, etc. hard to do in this forum From Cammey: Ravena ~ we should also exchange contact info From Cammey: and talk privately, it's how we'll actually get to know each other From Cammey: and each other's beliefs From Ravena: yes, one could talk privately.. not on here I Don't think, but via email and other things From Kai: with a site/forum as Sim would set up, it allows us to talk at our convenience, and set up a personal profile From Cammey: vote... that sounds like a good plan. Quarterly business meetings and monthly social meetings? From Khan: Yea From Aarin: sure From LadyCG: YEA From Lady Slinky: Sure From Sim: good enough for me From Michelle: So a forum site, plus monthly informals, quarterly formal chats From LadyCG: I like it From Cammey: yes. From Khan: Agreed

From Lono: agreed From Lady Slinky: I am willing to give it a try but frankly guys the number of these independent unity meetings is building up. From Vorsuc: how about .... Action plan is we each get assigned a "relationship" with an objective to partner and exchange contact info and information with another group. From Vorsuc: We spend the time until next meeting learning about that group, their agenda, who they are what they do. From Vorsuc: Foster relationships between groups. From Ravena: well, I think it would be difficult to know someone's objectives if they are a stranger to us, furthermore, one of my goals was to stop the ridiculous sniping etc.. for me a way to combat this is for a person not just to be a name From Kai: agreed From Michelle: Slinky: so we reach out to the others, integrate them? From Gabriel: ok I'm gonna ask this From Gabriel: Can one of you set up these things I'm taking a vacation after Feb.. trying to get my personal life back together :p From Vorsuc: Gabe - pass me the info. I'll sort it. From Gabriel: ok From Vorsuc: Sound reasonable to everyone? Objective is that you'll be assigned a group to become familiar with and be on reasonable contact terms with for next time? if we continue it we'll know each other reasonably well pretty quickly. From Ravena: I Don't mean life stories and buddy buddy stuff, private people can still be private.. anyway, just include everyone's contact info with the log, if they give permission and we can go from there perhaps? From Cammey: Vorsuc ~ personally, I think it's a good plan. From Michelle: Gabe, you've got the mod hat. Assign people to people. From Lady Slinky: Sure From Cammey: also, I think we should make a private list of contact info From Cammey: and give it to Gabe From Cammey: who can give it to each person here, along with the log. From Cammey: that keeps our private contact off the internet, but to each other. From Gabriel: ok works for me From SphynxCatVP: Vorsuc > Sounds reasonable Smile

From WalkerofShadows: Good idea Cammey From Gabriel: Now can I calm everyone down for a second .. we all agreed to give this a try yes? From LadyCG: yes From Sim: yes From Kaine: Yes From Gabriel: I have a point to bring up as our first action From Michelle: Yup From Khan: yes From WalkerofShadows: listens to Gabe From Cammey: yes From Lady Slinky: yes From Gabriel: it's something that some of you asked me to bring up here From Gabriel: Jonathan Sharkey, as a community From Gabriel: Vorsuc is having an interview with him tomorrow From Sim: I say we just denounce his involvement. From Sim: He's making himself a big joke. From Lady Slinky: it will have to be addressed sooner or later From LadyCG: **face / palms From Michelle: Do we all agree on that? From Sim: AYE From Michelle: I'd like to state to the media that the only member of the community he represents is himself. From Vorsuc: Sim - that was my angle. I'd asked a number of groups to prepare a public release to that effect. From Khan: I agree he doesn't represent the community as a whole From Gabriel: let's also note: Sharkey May win it From Twilight: He's a raving nutball as far as I'm concerned, if we allow him to claim to be speaking for all of us we're asking for a lot of trouble From Sim: He doesn't represent anyone but himself.

From LadyCG: Michelle I agree he only reps himself From Lono: I agree From Gabriel: can we give Vorsuc a public release people? From Cammey: Gabe ~ it's too early. He's the most known name, the polls are biased because of that, fortunately. From Ravena: knowing what I do about politics, I highly doubt he will win From Agar: not only for us, but every pagan and fruitcake out there From Gabriel: after his interview let's read over it and make a comment? From Sim: Sure. We, as a whole Community, denounce the idiot, Sharkey. <end statement> From Michelle: I do not want vamp=Satanist in the popular eye because of him From Vorsuc: comment ? er... hang on .... *Wink* From Twilight: Vorsuc already has a blurb I wrote for release to the media, I encourage everyone to do the same From Gabriel: Twilight: as well as I have From Ravena: I think though that this needs to be handled with care so the point is known but it's not a sniping, backbiting fest From Sim: You just read mine. lol From Khan: I will post one on my site, as well From Gabriel: im just asking if we can look at Vorsuc's interview with him and anyone who hasn't give him a comment on the community's behalf.. we know how we feel about him From Michelle: This is completely serious from me, and I want honest opinions. I've been holding off contacting my publicist and media contacts about him. From Gabriel: yeah, let's make it political if possible From Michelle: I didn't want to look like I was using him to grab attention From LadyCG: while I am supportive of whatever my American vamp counterparts decide.. I Don't really have an opinion of him.. to me he is just another colorful American Polititian From Lady Slinky: I think that the first to step out are always a bit out there. From Khan: I say he doesn't represent us. From Twilight: Michelle, you're in a unique position to be able to get some media involvement here, what do you really think and how would you address it? From Michelle: But I think something needs to be said publically to counteract the PR job he's doing for the community -- negative PR that is.

From Sim: Don't do it, Michelle. From Vorsuc: Khan - which is effectively the release that will go out. From Gabriel: I'm not asking for a comment tonight FYI From Ravena: he represents only himself From Sim: Reason being... From Sim: You'll give HIM more press. From Sim: And that's not what he needs. From WalkerofShadows: I would agree Michelle, I'm Canadian as well, but he gives All of us a bad image From Michelle: I've waffled. I'm afraid making a big deal about it will give him more attention From Sim: He needs to be swept under the carpet. From Lady Slinky: I think we should handle this by going to him, Don't you? From Cammey: Sim ~ That was my argument, weeks ago From Vorsuc: Sim - he has press, lots, it made reuters and most of the major news feeders. From Twilight: But not saying anything gives the impression we concur From Michelle: But at the same time, I probably stand the best chance of making a statement a lot of people will ge to hear. From Sim: But Michelle's getting involved would bring BIGGER press. From Lono: now you're absolutely right to be waffled, Michelle From Lady Slinky: wouldn't things be where we should try to understand him? From Vorsuc: There have been a number of followups and I'd like to hijack that interest and make sure it is clear he "doesn't represent all of us" From Sim: 'a noted vampire leader has spoken with Sharkey...' From Gabriel: lady: already have, and I asked him if he'd agree to an interview by the community which is when I handed him to Vorsuc From Michelle: Well, I'd want to wait till Vorsuc talks to him tomorrow. From Michelle: He's my worst case scenario, PR wise. He's what I was afraid Don Henrie would be. From Lady Slinky: indeed From Cammey: Vorsuc ~ I look forward to reading that interview by the way.

From Michelle: Sim: yeah. There's my quandary. From Lady Slinky: and Don Henrie wasn't? From Sim: Understandably so. From Ravena: I Don't know Don personally, but compared to this guy, Don is a disney character From Cammey: Michelle ~ he's worse then Don, even when Don was out there. From Khan: I'll wait to make a comment until after the interview From Sim: Don has intelligence to back him up. From Gabriel: let's not go into Don thats like a Todd topic From Ravena: I mean, in terms of what they do to the rep of the community overall From Michelle: He's not this bad. From Lono: yeah from what I've seen of Sharkey he could do some real damage From Lady Slinky: I am not saying Don is bad From Agar: I Don't think he'll last. His own satanic church is a laughing stock, not to mention the site already down and 403 From Twilight: Don's still out there, but Sharkey makes Don look good by comparison From Lady Slinky: I am just not sure how much different Sharkey is From Cammey: Slinky ~ check his website From Gabriel: Twilight: agreed From Sim: Ok... From Sim: On that note... From Sim: The Yahoo Group sits there, if you want it. From Michelle: It's something I love about this community -- we're a heck of a lot of individuals, all very vocal. From Michelle: But the media only gets a voice here, a voice there. From Michelle: In cases when that voice severely misrepresents us, something should be done. From Khan: I say we reserve comment until we can see the interview, and reconvene then From Sim: So I'm out of here. From Gabriel: listen, let's just make the arrangement of, will we give Vorsuc our comments when time comes?

From Cammey: I would say an in-community posting on the subject is good though From Vorsuc: Michelle - I agree, if only that the "vampire alliance" or whoever makes a formal statement. From Michelle: Yes. From Gabriel: (btw, we need to do this on IRC next time or SOMETHING so I can see what's already typed) lol From Cammey: just to stop the vlad wanna-bes from coming into the community and saying "I wanna be like the impaler!" From Cammey: at the least. Sim just vanished from the Teleconference! From Lono: has there been alot of the underworld fallout in chan and on the forums lately? From Cammey: Lono ~ there always is, it's just flavor-of-the-week From LadyCG: not in mine, Lono From Lady Slinky: nore mine From Cammey: though thankfully not vlad fallout From Michelle: So what do people need from us before we go? From Twilight: All, I have to head out myself, but I'm really glad the Sharkey thing is being addressed and I look forward to the log and future meetings From Gabriel: Michelle: I got all the information, I'll send it to their respective places.. we're gonna have another meeting in figuring this out From Michelle: Seriously, let me know the consensus of what to do/say about Sharkey. From Gabriel: but as far as everything were agreed to attempt a unity at a slow pace and communications thus far in (right all?) From Michelle: I'll sit on it if everyone wants. From Khan: I agree From WalkerofShadows: *nods to Gabe* From Gabriel: Michelle: I'd wait till Vorsuc has the interview then make an actual personal statement From Cammey: *nods* From Michelle: Or I'll start an aggressive campaign of contacting the media to make a statement. From Michelle: Absolutely, Gabe

From Michelle: Lot of work, but I'm willing to do it if people think it's important enough From Gabriel: I'd like to end the meeting in 5 mins.. it's going to the 2 hour mark, if that's ok with all From Lono: I like irc...when you can get people to stop screwing around and be serious for a change.."did I just say that?" From Cammey: Vorsuc~ you should ask him his views on normal people, From LadyCG: Michelle, Josh is already aware of my opinion of Sharkey.. we had reason to be in contact recently From Vorsuc: Cammey - will do. I Don't think we'll like the answer though. Twilight just vanished from the Teleconference! From Michelle: I've been holding off contacting the good folks at NBCUniversal Lady Slinky just vanished from the Teleconference! From Lono: I have the number to CBS New York...and virtually every producer... From Vorsuc: Michelle - you can make a personal statement or use your contacts to help create a wider audience for a joint statement. There will be a number of names on it though. From Michelle: As there should be. From Agar: the bigger the better From Cammey: if people Don't want Michelle being the only media voice then we should look into who's willing to put their face on camera, shines up nice, etc. From Cammey: eventually. From Cammey: It's a huge thing to commit to. From Michelle: Lady CG did a good job. ::pokes:: From WalkerofShadows: I think Known individuals need to be seen first From Cammey: Michelle ~ agreed wholeheartedly. From Michelle: Living your life under glass? Yeah... From Kai: I'm willing to show my face, and living in NYC makes it more convenient From Michelle: Well, anyone wants to step up, give me contact info. From Michelle: I got Raven of House Eclipse on the A&E special From Khan: I agree with Michelle and Cammey. Lady CG did a wonderful job before. From Michelle: They ask me to recommend people.

From Cammey: Michelle ~ face blacked out, doesn't count, frankly From Cammey: I respect Raven as a person, but you need to be both willing to do that, and have a respectable profile From Michelle: Still, it was something that a sang needed to say. From Michelle: It's tough. From Cammey: Michelle ~ Agreed. From LadyCG: I'd be happy to help out if someone tells me what needs doing. From Agar: I don't mind stepping up for something if need be From Gabriel: ok let's wrap it up... if people wanna give comments about Sharkey, find Vorsuc. if you need his info send to me, I'll forward.. Sim is hosting the next meeting, and we get a buddy system (like that?) so let's hope this works out. strive for unity. thank you all for coming From Vorsuc: Y'all take care and look forward to seeing more of you next meeting. Gabe I'll hit you tomorrow about followup for sorting out these "relationships". From Gabriel: Aki cut log everyone speak freely