9984. (S. DUNGA) (G. 812)

middle of the page, there is a portion "Elections"?

That is correct.

Will you read from "Selections", please?

"-lections ; President Chief A . J . Luthuli.

Executive Committee ; M . B . Yengwa, D.G.S. Nyembe,

M . Mabida, S. Dhlamini, F . Bengu, P . G. Mei, N. Yengwa,

P , H . Simelane, A . Gumede, W. Z. Conco, A . Nene".

And then there occurs a legent "Consolidated

Report of the National Conference of the African National

Congress held at Bloemfontein on December 17th-19th,

1955"« Just read the opening portion of that, please?

"This Conference of the National Executive Committee

of the African National Congress was very well attended

although the Natal Provincial delegates were handicapped

by transport difficulties. "=

Now under the same heading, on page 24,

there is a portion "Election of Officials", is that

correct? That is correct, My Lord.

Read that please? "Election of Officials.

President-Genural ; Chief A . J . Luthuli.

National Executive ; (1) 0. R . Thambo, (2) Dr. A . Letele, »

(3) Reverend Calata; (4) Professor Z. K . Matthews?

(5) R. Resha} (6) A . Hutchinson? (7) P , Mathole;

(8) J . Nkadimeng? (9) Mazibuko? (10) C. Mayekiso?

(11) Mkwayi; (12) G. Tshune; (13) G . Sibande?

(14 Mrs. L. Ngoyi."

That is all that I want from this particular

document. Next Constable, would you look please at

Exhibit A . 210. These are two documents, an original

roneod document in a Native language and a manuscript

document in your handwriting. Can you tell the Court

what these are, please? Exhibit A . 210

9985. (S. DUNGA) (A. 210)

They are both marked A . 210. Deal with the

yellow document, the printed one first, the document in

the Native language, What is that and in what language

is it? This document is Inyaniso ye A.N.C., the Cape

A.N.C. Newsletter. 5

In what language? In Xosa, My Lord.

And next to it you have a manuscript docu-

ment. Is that your hand writing? This is my

handwriting.

Is that your translation of Inyaniso? — - This 10

is my translation.

Is it correct? It is correct.

Is your translation into the English language?

Yes.

Now on the front page - you hand in the 15

original document and your manuscript translation, is

that so? That is so.

You also have "before you a typewritten copy

of your translation which has "been checked by you?

That is correct. 20

Referring to that, on the front page of this

journal you have the following s "The Truth of the

A.N.C. "Cape" A.N.C. Newsletter. Issued by the Provincial

H4adquarters of the Cape African National Congress

P . 0. Box 352, Queenstown."? That is correct. 25

Then the contents are set forth, and it

says also "The next issue of 'The Truth' will contain

news on the Congress of the People. Don't miss it."

Then on page 1 there is the heading "Warning to the

African Community. Introduction." Is that so? 30

That is so, My Lord.

Turn over the page. Who appears to be the

9986. (S. DUNGA) (A. 210)

author of that article? T. E . Tshunungwa.

"Editor"? Correct.

And at the top of page 2, just read that

paragraph in quotation markes? '"Freedom is achieved

only by a people who can sacrifice anything even "their 5

lives for it', said Chief Luthuli when he addressed the

Annual General Qonference of the African National Congress

in Durban last month."

Using your typewritten copy, will you turn to

page 7. There is an article entitled "There will he Hell 10

in Sophiatown". Will you read the opening portion of

that article please? "Verwoerd wastes no time. He

charges like a bull towards the Africans. Just now there

is trouble brewing in Sophiatown. Our people have received

notices of ejectment from their valuable homes. At any 15

time between the 1st of this month and the 12th of

February^ they should pack their bundles and go where

Verwoerd pleases".

Still in the same article on page 8, will you

read the two concluding paragraphs of the article? 20

"Chief Luthuli our National leader when addressing the

delegates at Stanger said 'The fat is in the fire, a

wonder is about, it will be a hell to play.! ' As it is

now, a coward will prove his weakness on this the year

of our Lord Nineteen Hundred and Fifty-Five." 25

Who was the author of that article? The

Editor.

Refer now to page 9 of your typewritten

copy. By whom is this paper issued? "Issued by

Provincial Headquarters. T. E . Tshunungwa". 30

That is all from that document, My Lords.

Would you look now please Constable at a typewritten

9987. (So DUNGA) (T.T. 88)

document, T.T. 88, togethar with a manuscript document

which I think is in your handwriting. Will you tell us

what the manuscript is? First tell us in what language

the typewritten document is? The typewritten document

is in Xosa, My Lord. 5

What is the manuscript document you have

before you? Is there a document in your handwriting there?

Yes.

What is that? This is a translation of

T.T. 88. 10

A translation into English? Into English.

By you? Yes.

Is it a correct translation? It is a

correct translation, My Lord.

And you hand in the translation? That is 15

correct.

You have also before you a typed copy of your

manuscript translation. Just read the first two lines on

page 1? "Wo read in history that there is a man whose

name was Karl. Karl Marx was born on the 5th May, 1818 20

in a village called Trier in the province of Rhine in

Prussia of Jewish parentage."

Leave pages 1, 2 and 3 and turn to page 4 of

your typewritten copy. You find the legend "Chapter 2"

in the middle of the page? Yes. 25

Will you start reading there please?

"Karl Marx is no more; but he accomplished his great

task of showing the world the way to freedom. This path

to freedom as thorny as it may seem has bo n taken by

such countries as Russia, Chin and others. These coun- 30

tries responded to Karl Marx's call and resolved to stand

together in the name of freedom. Today these countries

9989. (S. LUNGA) (T.T. 88)

have shaken the bonds of oppression while other nations

still believe in the backward principles of exploitation

of humanity by m e n . What these free countries aspire for

is the spread of the spirit of freedom throughout the

orld in order to free the world from the scourge of war- 5

fare and suffering, and the maintenance of world peace

according to the will of Almighty. The representatives

of capitalism in all the countries that they rule are

prepared to fight tooth and nail against Communism because

they want to exploit other nations throughout the world 10

forever. They know very well that their governments are

becoming weaker as time goes on. That is why the

capitalist government are against the distribution of

communist literature, and that is why those who speak of

freedom are banned or deported. They are aware that the 15

people are bound to awake from oppression and demand for

their freedom in the land of their birth".

Now the next paragraph is devoted to the theme

of capitalist exploitation. Read the third paragraph on

that page, please? "Now let us come back, friends - 20

let us come back to our land, - the Africa of milk and

honey, the Africa that was bestowed upon our forefathers

by the lord for them to enjoy all that it brings forth

in happiness, in peace and with love".

And did the article then continue with an 25

historical survey which starts at the time before the

arrival of the white settlers and which sketches the

conditions of the people then living in this country?

That is correct.

Omit page 6, 7, 8 and turn to page 9 . Is 30

this still part of the same article? That is correct,

My Lord.

9990. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 88)

Start reading from the concluding paragraph

on page 9? "If in our account of the various organisa-

tions which have sprung up in this country we would not

mfeke a mention of one of the organisations which is very

disliked "by capitalists we would "be failing in our duty» 5

This organisation is the Communist Party which was

founded "by Karl Marx about whom we have devoted some of

our foregoing pages. It is an organisation of people who

believe in the teachings of Karl Marx, a doctrine which

lays down that the people should achieve their freedom in 10

their lifetime. Sons and daughters of Africa, I have

already indicated in this article that communism exposes

the evils of capitalist governments and for obvious

reasons I cannot dwell on its policies since the South

African government outlawed the Communist Party through 15

its Suppression of Communism Act of 1950. The people*s

leaders who had taken part in its activities were also

banned from attending and addressing meetings. Those

who defied this law were thrown into prison. What else can

we say about the panic that took hold of the capitalist 20

government. During the defiance of Unjust Laws Campaign

of 1952-1953* when the people wore becoming alarmed at the

actions of the capitalist government of this country, the

government threw all the people's leaders into gaol in

terms of the Suppression of Communism Act. This does

not surprise us much because Karl Marx was made a gaol

bird because he clamoured for the freedom of the people

in their lifetime. 3ven those leaders who were unfortu-

nate enough not to be members of the Communist Party

became., victims of this vicious piece of legislation." 30

Now turn to page 11. Is this still part of

the same article? Yes, My Lord.

9991. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 88)

Will you start reading from the penultimate

paragraph? "The reader must realise that when we speak

of an oppressed people and a liberatory organisation we

in South Africa are not the first people to be oppressed

and who are fighting for their freedom. If we read his-

tory we find that many countries were oppressed and

fought for their freedom as they still do to this day. We

find that most of these countries had their own liberatory

movements. Let us examine the situation today. In Europe

there were skirmishes between the forces of freedom and the

reactionary governments in such countries as Poland and

Ireland. The Russian revolution is another glaring

example of the struggle of the oppressed and workers

through Trade Unionism and a liberatory front against the

Czarist regime, Asian countries have also showed their

liberatory spirit such as the struggles of the people of

Indonesia, Persia, x

alestine and China who have recently

attained their freedom. The people of these countries

were like the oppressed people of Africa but their deter-

mination won them the much coveted prize of freedom in

their lifetime. They are today enjoying their freedom

after unutterable oppression. To others it would be

unbelievable; but to the sceptics we would advise them

to listen to Moses Kotane and Walter Sisulu who have

seen all this with their own eyes and who have been told

of the oppression that the people of those countries

suffered under the capitalists. These men are political

leaders of the African people in South Africa. Kotane

has visited the free countries frequently and he is one

of the leading political intellectuals in this country.

In Africa, too, there is an awakening for freedom. From

North Africa in Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Tuhis, Gold Coast,

9992. (S. DUHGA) (TT. 88)

Lybia, Kenya to South Africa, the straggle for freedom

is being intensified. It is through learning how other

nations fought for their freedom that people of Africa

will carry on their struggle effectively. The path to

freedom has been paved and there is no need for us to 5

waste time. It is essential, therefore, that in view of

the barriers planted in our path by the government the

oppressed people should form up their Trade Unions and

strengthen their National laboratory Organisation",

Nov/ turn to page 1 3 . Is this still part of the 10

same article? — - That is correct, My Lord,

In the second paragraph did he say "African

workers have fought many a time for their rights. I shall

mention a few of incidents in the long struggle by Trade

Unions and the Liberatory Movement"? That is correct, 15

My Lord.

And did he then consider various incidents, /

some of them involving the police opening fire on the

people and people dying? That is correct, My Lord.

And he refers to the Masabalala incident? 20

That is correct.

And the Bloemfontein incident in 1923?

That is cor. oct.

"Where some Africans lost their lives"?

That is correct. 25

And turning to page 15 - is this still part

of the same article? Yes.

Are there further references here to the

struggle of the workers and references to police intimi-

dation and people killing of workers? That is so, 30

My Lord.

9993. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 88)

And the "bloody mot .ods such as murdering used

by the oppressor in trying to suppress the workers?

That is correct, My Lord.

That is all from that document, My Lords.

Constable, would you look at Exhibit A , 209, which is a 5

roneod document, and would you also look at the document

in your handwriting which accompanies it. Tell us first

what the roneod document is, and in what language it is?

In what language is the roneod document? The roneod

document is in Xosa, My Lord. 10

And the document in your handwriting is what?

It is a translation of the document A* 209 into

English,

Is it a correct translation? It is a

correct translation* 15

And you hand in your translation? That is

correct, My Lord,

Now is the heading "African National Congress"

- you also have before you a typed copy of your manuscript

translation? Thaii is correct. 20

Which has been checked by you? That is

correct.

Now referring to ihat, is the heading "African

National Congress : Cape Headquarters, P , 0# Box 352,

Queenstown, 1st February, 1955"? That is correct, 25

My Lord.

There is a further legend "Read this letter

and reply please." And then it is apparently addressed %

"To all the A.N.C. Branches, Cape Province"? That is

correct. 30

"Sons and Daughters of Africa, I would like

to bring to your notice the following points", and then

9994. (S. DUNGA) (A. 20$)(T.T. 18)

the first one is "My Complaint Concerning 'The Truth',

Your Paper"? That is correct.

Now if you look at your typewritten copy,

the last paragraph on page 1, does that paragraph "begin

as follows : "I, as an editor, of course, know very well 5

that your monies support papers which have nothing to do

with our people,"? That is correct,

Now turning to page 2 of your typewritten

transcript who issued this paper and on behalf of whom?

T, E# Tshunungwa, for Provincial Secretariat. 10

That is all that I want from that document,

My Lords. Would you now look please at Exhibit T.T.18,

which is a Croxley Pen Carbon Book containing notes in

ink, and would you also look at the document in your

handwriting. Does the Croxley Book contain notes in 15

ink? Yes, My Lord.

In what language? It is written in Zosa,

My Lord#

Look at the other document in your handwriting.

What is that? This is a translation of T#T» 18. by me 20

Into English,

Is that a correct translation? It is a

correct translation.

Now would you turn to page 73 of the Croxley

Book, please? Are these Minutes of the New Brighton 25

Branch Executive Committee Meeting Report? Correct,

My Lord.

And have you also before you a typewritten

copy of that part of the translation? A aopy checked by

you? That is correct, My Lord. 30

Does this correspond with what is found on

page 73 of the Croxley Book? That is so, My Lord.

9995. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 18)

Are these Minutes? Yes, My Lord.

Minutes of what? "Minutes. New Brighton

Branch Executive Committee Me ting Report, 27,1,1956".

Read the first line? "Chairman. C,J,

Mayekiso opened the meeting". 5

Now look at the foot of page one. There is

a heading "Elected Committee" - begin immediately above

that, "Annual Report", and start reading from there,

please? "Annual Reports Secretary gave previous year's

annual maeting report and was approved by the meeting as 10

in order. Elected Committee ; C.J, Mayekiso (Chairman,

W,W. Kupe (Vice-Chairman). T. Mqota (Secretary).

T.T. Tshume (Vice-Secretary), W,Z, Mkwayi (Treasurer).

J . Mjo, F , Matomela, Maljala, Penxa, Keti, B . Tshume",

Now turning to page 2, is there a reference 15

under the heading "Sub-Committees", to an "Educational

Sub-Committee"? Yes, My Lord.

Who were the chairman and Secretary respec-

tively? Mr. W. F . Mati,as chairman and D , L . FUyani,

Secre-fcary, 20

Then a further sub-paragraph "(c) Volunteer

Board"* Read the opening lines, please? "Mr. W,Zj

Mkwayi.,,,"

Read it all please? "(c) Volunteer Board :

M r . W.Z. Mkwayi to be in charge of the volunteer members 25

of the board i B.L. Fjryani, L . Mancoko, Bennilv Mahlulu".

In conclusion, the Minutes recite the members

present? — Correct.

Just read that, please? — " M e m b e r s present;

C.J. Mayekiso, J . Mjo, F. Matomela, B . Tshume, T.T. Tshume".30

And who signed the minutes? C.J. Mayekiso.

That is all from that document, My Lords.

9996. (S. DUNGA) (B. 35, T . T . 2 5 > ( I ^ 9 0 >

I hand you now a photostatic copy of Exhibit G , 35, which

has already been handed in, My Lord. I hand you also

Exhibit TT. 25 a roneod document in a Native language.

Look first at TT. 25 and tell the Court in what language

the roneod document TT. 25 is? TT. 2 5 is in Xosa, My 5

Lord.

And B. 35 is in English? That is correct.

Have you compared B . 35 with the contents of

TT. 25? That is so.

And the photostat copy, B. 35, what is that in 10

relation to TT, 25? B. 35 is an English version of

TT, 25.

Is it correct? It is correct, My Lord.

You hand in those two documents? Yes.

Next will you look at Exhibit T T . 90, which 15

is a roneod magazine in a yellow cover, apparently rela-

ting to the New Brighton Branch of the African National

Congress. Would you also look at the documentin your

handwriting. Now in what language is TT. 90 written,

apart from one or two English legends? It is written 20

in Xosa, My Lord.

And the manuscript document next to it in your

handwriting is.-.? It is in English, it is a transla-

tion of TT. 90.

By you? By m e . 25

Is it a correct translation? It is a correct

translation, yes.

You hand in the translation? Yes, My Lord.

You also have before you a typewritten copy

of your manuscript translation which you have checked? 30

That is corrcct.

Now is this, according to your translation,

9997. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 18)

the Chairman's Speech, the speech of C.J. Mayekiso,

"Annual Conference, A.N.C. New Brighton Branch? That

is correct.

And in the third paragraph, did he

say the following : "The struggle in which we are engaged 5

today demands many sacrifices. It is a holy "battle of

non-violence, a struggle of independent nationhood with

our only hope in the Almighty and faithfulness even unto

deathl" That is correct.

"During my three years as chairman of this 10

"branch I have made various observations,,." is that

correct? Th-.t is correct.

Now turn to page 2 of your typed copy. Is

there a heading towards the fcot of the page, "Annual

Report of the New Brighton Branch Executive Committee 15

Delivered on 22/1/56 at Thomas Hall for the year 1955"?

That is correct.

And then the sub-heading "Introduction"^

Turn to page 3 . Who is the author of that and in what

capacity? T. T. Tshume, Secretary. 20

And then on the same page is there a heading

"Branch Executive Committee"? That is correct.

Begin reading from the last paragraph on

that page? "As far as organisational .activity is

concerned it is gratifying to note the great interest 25

and courageous enthusiasm shown by various members in

the liberatory struggle. It had been stressed that

members of the Branch Executive Committee should attend

branch meeting regularly in order to be well-informed

and lead the people in an able manner. To this end 30

members were urged to pay special attention to local

9998. (S. DUNGA) (TT. 90)

problems and to study the history of the liberatory

movement in other foreign countries and their relation

with local conditions. Hence the advisability of reading

such publications as 'Liberation1

, 'Fighting Talk', 'Isizwe',

and especially the workers paper, the 'New Age'. All 5

the work connected with the struggle for liberation is in

the hands of the Branch Executive Committee which is

elected annually. The Committee is the vanguard of the.

people and it must meet the people on their demands".

Omit page 5, 6, 7 and turn to page 8. Is 10

there a heading "Volunteers"? Correct.

Read the first paragraph under that heading?

"To the voluntjers, this Committee feels gratified

to receive a good report from the Volunteer Board to the

effect tha . during this y#ar the volunteer ranks have been 15

joined by - even by the 1952 Defiance Campaign voluhteers".

Now pausing there, in that first paragraph,

what is the Xosa word that you have translated as

"Volunteers"? ^'Madela^ufa" .

And can you tell W s something about that word, 20

its general use in the Xosa language and its derivation?

What is the literal translation of that word? It

means people who defy death._\|/

And can you give us other instances of its

use in the Xosa language? Historically or otherwise? 25

I'll say it was used for warriors during the olden days.

What class of warriors? Warriors who

were called upon by the chief to go to war.

Now turn to page 9, the paragraph in the

middle of the page, still under the heading "Volunteers"? 30

"We feel prgud of volunteers who obey the directives

of Congress leadership for their readiness to work at

9999. (S. DUNGA) ( • 90)

short notice. We say 'hats-off' to the local volunteer

board for its rigid enforcement of discipline amongst

volunteers. If the volunteers are always in preparedness

to do work allocated them without question there is no

reason why the people should not be freed from the bonds 5

of oppression. Political study groups amongst volunteers

are very important. The leaders of this branch are tlying

by all means to provide political lectures for the

volunteer group leaders. It is necessary that the

Executive of this Branch should stress the importance of 10

political study groups (of 10's) to be shouldered by

the local Volunteer Board where volunteers will be given

lectures on political matters and the role of the volun-

teers in the national liberatory movement. Let us not

retreat fellow Africans. Let us not falter for we seek 15

living in the land of cur ancestors. Let us have courage

for we demand for our liberation. No country has ever

achieved freedom without patriots. Our freedom depends on

the men and women who will make^^sacrifiees for their coun- y

try - the Volunteers. Long live the Freedom Volunteers)" 20

Now would you turn to page 12. The heading,

"Report on the National Conference Held at Bloemfontein

on the 16th-18th December, 1955". Is that correct?

That is correct, My Lord.

And on page 13 there is the heading "The 25

National Executive, 1955/6"? That is correct, My

Lord.

Would you read that please? "The National

Executive 1955-6. Chief A.J. Luthuli, President-General.

0. R. Tambo, Secretary-General. Dr. A . E . Letele, 30

Treasurer. National Executive Committee : 1. Mrs. Lilian

Ngoyi - Transvaal. 2. Mr. Leslie Masina - Transvaal.

lqooo. (S. DUNGA) (T.T. 90)

3. G. Sibande - Transvaal. 4. C.J. Mayekiso - Cape.

5. Robert Resha - Transvaal. 6. P . Mathole - Transvaal.

7. A . Hutchinson,- Transvaal. 8. J . Mavuso - Transvaal.

9. E. Rakaoana - Transvaal. 10. Z.K. Matthews - Cape.

1 1 . Rev. Calata - Cape. 12. Mr. T. Mqota - Cape. 5

13. M r . T.T. Tshume - Cape. 14. M r . Lawrence Nkosi -

Transvaal. 15. Mr. John Nkadimeng - Transvaal,"

Then there is a heading, "Banned Leaders"'? —

That is so, yes.

And the banned leaders for the various ProvinceslO

are given and they are numbered. Now look for the heading

"Transvaal"? Yes.

I'll give you the numbers, you give me the

names, I don't want all the names, you see. No. 2?

M . Kotane. 15

No. 3? W.M. Sisulu.

No. 5? J . Mavuso.

No. 8? N. Mandela.

No. 9? O.R. Tambo.

Cape Province, No. 2? Joe Matthews. 20

No. 4? R. Matjie.

No. 6? G. Tshume.

No. 7? Dr. J.Z.L. Njongwe.

N o . 8? A , P. Mati.

Natal, N o . 1? M . B. Yengwa. 25

No. 2? A.J. Luthuli.

No. 3? W.Z. Conco.

N o . 4? P.H. Simelane.

Now continuing on page 14, you have a

continuation of the Transvaal Pr vince list, is that 30

correct? That is correct.

No. 10? Dan Tloome.

N o . 11? G. Sibande.

10001 (S. DUNGA) (TT. 18)

No* 15? D. Nokwe.

Noi 23? — F. Madiba.

No. 25? P . Selepe.

looking again at a continuation of the Cape

Province list, N o . 12? Florence Matomela.

And the A.N.C. Women's League, just read the

names that occur there? Mrs. Lilian Ngoyi, President-

Genera, Transvaal. Bertha Mashaba, Vice-President,

Transvaal. Mary Eantha, Secretary, Transvaal. Francis

Baard, Treasurer, Cape."

Then looking at the end of the report, under

whose name do the Minutes appear - or the report?

J.J, Makgatho.

And the position? Secretary Women's

League, New Brighton Branch.

Next Constable, would you look at Exhibit

D . 15. I beg Your Lordships' pardon, it is Exhibit

T.E.T. 56, which isnfirst of all a roneod letter in

English under the hand of T.3. Tshunungwa, typed in and

also a signature in ink, and annexed thereto a document

in a Native language, that is T.E.T.§6. Would you also

look at the manuscript documentin English, in your

handwriting, and tell the Court what these are. Look

first of all at the roneod document, the first page is

in English, not so? That is correct, My Lord.

And who is the author? Enoch Tshunungwa.

He has it typed it, and there is also an

ink signature? That is correct.

Now the following pages of that document

are in what language? In Xosa, My Lord.

And what is the manuscript document in your

handwriting? It is a translation of T.E.T. 56 in English

10002. (S. DUNGA) (T.E.T. 56)

4 ) "by m e .

Is it a correct translation? It is a

correct translation.

And you hand it in? Yes, I hand it in.

And you have also before you a typewritten 5

copy of your manuscript translation? Yes, My Lord.

This is headed "African National Congress,

(Cape Branch), P . 01 Box 48, New Brighton, Port Elizabeth",

and it is "To all Branches of the A.N.C. and C.Y.L." is

that correct? Yes. 10

And then it says "The Cape Provincial Branch

salutes you in the name of Africa!"? Yes.

Now on that first page is there a heading,

"Provincial Executive"? Yes.

Does that refer to Dr. Njongwe as their Provin- 15

cial leader? Yes.

Does it say thatHDr. Njongwe who is wellknown

throughout the Union was banned and forced to resign from

our National Organisation by M r . Swart. Moreo^ver, our

Secretary, the diligent and patriotic M r . Mat jie was also 20

banned and forced to resign too. These two sracancies

had to be filled and we found two men to fit in,

namely M r . Mashibine and Mr. Tshunungwa. We, therefore,

present these two gentlemen for your immortal support and

spirited respect."? That is correct. 25

Now turn to page 2 of the typed copy. Is

there a heading, "The Provincial Secretariat"? Yes.

Does that read "Congress has got a lot of work

to do and it must be done. We therefore appointed these

three young men to become our Provincial Secretariat ; 30

1. M r . C. Mayekiso of Port Elizabeth; 2. T. E . Tshunungwa

of Queenstown, 3 . B . Jack of Korsten, Port Elizabeth"?

10003. (S. DUNGA) (T.S.T. 56)

9

Yes, that is correct.

"All Provincial correspondence and notices for

convening meetings will in future he issued by them"?

Yes, My Lord.

Now turn to page 3, is there a heading near 5

the top of the page "National Organiser"? Yes, My

Lord.

Does it read as follows ; "Mr. T.E.Tshunungwa

has been appointed the National Organiser of the African

National Congress generally and the Congress of the People 10

in particular"? Yes.

And turning to the end of the document on

page 4 of your typewritten copy, does it say "Issued by

the Secretariat of the Province, ptp

# Enoch Tshunungwa"?

Yes, My Lord. 15

That is all from that document, My Lord.

Constable I hand you now Exhibit W.M. 3# This is a roneod

document, Inyaniso, in a Native language, and I hand you

also your . manuscript - a manuscript document in your

handwriting. Will you tell us what the manuscript is in 20

relation to Y/'.M. 3. In what language is Inyaniso? — -

Inyaniso is in Xosa, My Lord. The manuscript is a

translation of Inyaniso into English by m e .

Is it a correct translation? It is a

correct translation. 25

And is this Inyaniso, or The Truth, is it

the Cape African National Congress Newsletter? Yes.

You hand it in? I hand it in.

You have also before you a typed copy of

your manuscript translation? Yes, My Lord. 3 0

At the foot of page 1 of the typed copy there

is a heading "The Congress of the People"? Yes, My Lord.

10004. (S. DUNGA) (W.M. 3)

And on page 2 there is a paragraph dealing

with its origin and then a sub-paragraph 2, "United Front"?

Yes.

At the conclusion of that paragraph does the

following occur ; "The following therefore are the orgajiisa- 5

tions which form our United Front"? Yes.

And then reference is made to the South

African Indian Congress, the South African Congress of

Democrats and the South African Coloured People's Organisa-

tion? That is correct. 10

And then does the article go on to say "These

three organisations therefore, friends, are led by the

African National Congress"? Yes, My Lord.

And then turning to page 3, sub-paragraph (iv),

under the title "The Freedom Volunteers"? Is that right? 15

That is correct, My Lord.

And dees the concluding portion of that article

read as follows? "I the National Organiser of the

Congress of the People shall pay you occasional visits to

speak to you more fully on this issue. However, branches 20

should communicate with me regarding any misunderstanding.

Forward to Freedom, Yours in National Service, National

Organiser, T. E . Tshunungwa". Does - is that correct?

That is correct, My Lord.

And then turn to page 5 of your typewritten 25

copy. Is there a heading "Leaders Arrested at George"?

Yes, My Lord.

Does this say ; "On Saturday, the 16th

October, sons of Africa who had gone to George to discuss

Congress busihess were arrested by the Swart police and 30

they spent the whole weekend in gaol"? That is

correct, My Lord.

10005. (S. DUNGA) (W.M. 3)

"They are.." and the first one is "T. E .

Tshunungwa, National Organiser of the Congress of the

People"? Correct.

Who is No. 4? "E. Mfaxa of Stutterheim

Provincial A.N.C.Y.L. Secretary, Cape". 5

Who is No. 6? "C. Mayekiso of New Brighton,

Cape Provincial Secretary and Chairman of the New

Brighton Branch".

Who is No. 8? "P. Matomela, member of the

Cape Provincial ExecutiveCommittee from Port Elizabeth". 10

Who is N o . 10? "G. S. Ngotyana, member of

the Cape Provincial Executive Committee and representative

of the Cape Western! Region of Cape Town".

And N o . 11? "J. Mtini, also of Cape Town".

That is all from that document, My Lord. 15

Would you look next please at Exhibit 5 J.M. 20(b), which

is a roneod document, and would you also look at the

manuscript document in your handwriting and tell the

Court what these are, please? J.M. 5 20(b) is in

Xosa. The manuscript in my handwriting is a translation 20

of 5 J.M. 20(b).

Is it a correct translation? It is a

correct translation, My Lord.

You hand it in? I do.

You have also before you a typewritten copy 25

of your manuscript translation? Yes, My Lord.

Which has been checked by you? Yes.

Now, reading from your typewritten copy,

just read the first few lines. What is this roneod

document"? " ", Volume I, No. I. Price Id." 30

Turning to page 2 of your typewritten copy,

does the following occur s "Mr. Mtini gives a report on

s m /

10006. (S. DUNGA) (5 J.M. 20(b)

Bloemfontein Conference? Yes.

And does it say that "At the 43rd Annual

Conference of the A.N.C. held at Bloemfontein during

last month, many important decisions were taken,

including the appointment of a Commissioner of Inquiry 5

to the following % Trade Unions. This will be led by

Trade Union leader Mr. Masina"? Yes, that is

correct.

And then under the sub-title "Land", there

appears ? "The Tshunungwa Committee will investigate the 10

plight of the African people on the ownership of land",

is that correct? That is correct, My Lord.

Sub-title "Houses" - "Mr. Mayekiso will lead

the housing Committee"? That is correct.

Then under the sub-title "Education. When we 15

speak of education we do not refer to the Verwoerd idea

of an education. We do not mean Bantu Education. We

mean free and compulsory education. Mr. Resha will lead

this Committee"? That is correct, My Lord.

By whom is this brochure issued? — Issued 20

by the A.N.C., C.O.D. and S.A.C.P.O.

Address? Box 4552, Cape Town.

That is all from that document, My Lords.

This is the last document, My Lords. Constfable, would

you look at Exhibit A . 17. This document has already 25

been handed in. It was handed in at page 210 of the

record, some time ago. Will you look at A . 17, and

Exhibit G. 1065. Tell us first what A . 17 is and in

what language it is written? A . 17 is in Xosa, My

Lord. G. 1065 is a translation into English by me of 30

A . 17.

Is it a correct translation? It is a

10007. (S. DUNGA) (A. 17)

correct translation.

You hand your translation in? I do.

My Lord, when A . 17 was handed in, with leave

of the Defence atthat stage, portions of the English

translation were read into the record, subject to the 5

later handing in of the translation. But My Lords, I

propose reading just the foreword to establish a link of

identityl I shall not read the rest of the document.

The introduction reads as follows s "This Conference is

being held at a time of great trial when the wellknown 10

people's leaders are not here amongst you - a fact which

will be more seriously dealt with in this report which I

have compiled for you in the name of our Provincial

Executive. I do hope that I, your obedient servant,

that you have appointed to struggle with this great task, 15

did not at any time mean offence to you. The contents of

this report are all yours, friends, which should help

to enlighten us all. For all the faults which were my

responsibility ever since I assumed the duties of Secre-

taryship serving my people I most humbly beg for your 20

pardon. Immediately I assumed office as Secretary I

became the National Organiser of the Congress of the

People. This latter office, therefore, demanded my

absence at many times from your Provincial Headquarters.

This was the reason why I could not discharge some of my 25

duties as your Provincial Secretary expediently, especially

as far as correspondence was concerned. It is quite clear

that such a task of being a Provincial Secretary of

such a big organisation like Congress demands a full-

time worker. Correspondence from the various branches 30

comes in tens a day not to mention the various other

duties of the Provincial Headquarters. All these things,

10008. (S. DUNGA) (A. 17)

therefore, confronted one man. Hence my appeal to you

to forgive me for my shortcomings. I am quite certain

that all the obstacles put in our way by the government

in respect of our movements will not discourage usl

Congress will ever remain strong. Here, therefore, is

your report. The aims of our Provincial Executive

Committee are that all members should have this report and

it is compulsory for all branches to be in possession of

it. Contents.." and then the contents are set forth, and

then it ends ? "Afrikal Mayibuyel T. E. T&hunungwa,

Cape Provincial Sec retary". My lord, the balance of the

report, the relevant portions, have been read in at page

210. That concludes the translations of the documents,

My Lords. In conclusion I should put formally to this

witness - I omitted to do so at the end of his testimony

on speeches - Constable, yesterday at the beginning of

your evidence, certain lists of names were read to you,

people you know, people whom you saw attending and addres-

sing meetings of the African National Congress. Some you

pointed out in Court, others were not in Court? That

is so.

Now, generally in regard to all the names

mentioned by you at that stage of the evidence, are they

the same people whose names have cropped up as we have

dealt with the meetings one by one? Yes, My Lord.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. HOEXTER..

CASE REMANDED TO THE 29TH FEBRUARY, I960.

COURT ADJOURNS.

10009.

COURT RESUMES ON THE 29TH FEBRUARY, I960.

APPEARANCES AS BEFORE.

Accused N o . 10, J . Molife is absent today.

ATWELL GAZA, under former oath?

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BERRANGE s

You said that you have been in the Special

Branch since 1954? Yes, correct.

And I take it that from that time onwards you

attended a great number of meetings? Correct, My Lord.

Of a nature similar to the ones that you have

testified to? Correct, My Lord.

And meetings held by the same organisations

that you have mentioned? Correct, My Lord.

I wonder whether you could tell us how many

meetings you would attend say a week, of this nature, on

an average? I would say one a wefek, My Lord.

About one a week, I see. You have given

evidence here in regard to thirteen meetings, and at the

Preparatory Examination you gave evidence in regard to

four more meetings? I am afraid I have no record, My

Lord.

Well, will you just accept that. I also

want as quickly as possible run through the meetings,

and the time occupied by them and also the amount of

paper that was devoted by you towards recording these

meetings. My Lord, I am not going to ask the witness

at this stage to check back to every m eting, I have

compiled a schedule of it, and the Crown and the witness

can check later on. Meeting No. G. 623, which occupied

two and three-quarter hours, was recorded on one sheet

of type, one typewritten sheet. G. 624, two and three-

10010. (A. GAZA)

quarter hours, one and a third typewritten sheets.

Meeting No. 625, which occupied six hours twenty minutes,

and which was recorded on two pages of type. Me =ting

No. 626, which took throe hours thirty five minutes and

was recorded on one and three quarter pages of type. 5

Meeting No. 627, three hours, recorded on one and a

half pages of type. Meeting No. 549, which took three

hours is recorded on two and a third pages of type.

Meeting No. 628, which took two and a half hours,

recorded on two pages. Meeting No.553> which took 10

two hours forty-five minutes, recorded on a little "bit

more than one and a half pages. Meeting No. 631, which

took three hours fifteen minutes, recorded on one type-

written page. Me ting No. 632, which took two hours,

recorded on one and a half typewritten pages. Meeting 15

N o . 633, which took two and a half hours, recorded on

one page of type. 634 which took two hours thirty-five

minutes, is recorded on one and a quarter pages. Meeting

N o . 245 which took - Meeting N o . 554 t'ok two and thre~-

quarter hours, one and three quarter pages. Now meeting 20

N o . 550, this is not a meeting which was referred to,

G. 550 which I shall refer to later, took two hours -

two and thrje quarter hours on one page. Meeting N o .

629, al so not referred to by the Crown, two hours

fifteen minutes, one and a third pages. Meeting No. 25

551, two and three quarter hours, one and a third pages.

The sum total of this indicates that the speechifying or

the meetings took fort,y-3even hours, thirty minutes,

and were recorded on twenty-three and a half pages.

That is a little less than half a page per hour. Of 30

the sixteen meetings which I have read out, eight of

them were recorded on typewritten pages single spacing,

10012. (A. GAZA)

and eight of them recorded on typewritten pages double

spacing. Now I take it that you will agree with me that

a great deal of what was said by the speakers you were

unable to record? It is possible, My Lord.

I don't want to know whether that is possible, 5

I want to know whether that is so or is not so? It is

so, My Lord.

'^nd I want to put a number of propositions to

you. First of all I want to suggest to you that your

notes do not indicate what language was used at these 10

meetings. That is so, is it not? They don't indicate.

And I want to put it to you that at the time

of your giving evidence both here and at the Preparatory

Examination, you are unable to say whether or not or which

speeches or which speeches were interpreted? I was not 15

asked, My Lord.

I don't care whether you were asked. I am

putting it to you that you were at the Preparatory

Examination unable to state, and that in fact you are today

unable to state which of these speeches were in fact 20

interpreted. Do you agree or don't you agree? I have

told the Court that one speech was addressed in English.

Yes, that was that speech in G. 628, that

speech in regard to which you gave evidence at Port

Elizabeth, the one made by Ndimba. That you said was 25

a speech made in English? Yes, the rest in Xosa.

I am putting it to you that you cannot say

whether they wero in Xosa or in any other language?

The rest were in Xosa, My Lord.

You are definite about that? I am 30

definite about that, except in the case of Resha, My

Lord.

10013. (A. GAZA)

So except in the case of Resha and except in

the case of that one speech of Ndimba's, you are definite

that they were all in Xosa? Yes, My Lord.

I want to refer you what you said at the

Preparatory Examination when you were asked about this. 5

On page 448, at the bottom of the page, you said - this

is the question s "Apart from what you have in your notes

you can't remember anything about any specific meetings?"

"That is so". "You can't for example remember what

language was used by any particular person on any parti- 10

cular occasion". "Some speakers used English and others

used Xosa". Question t "But some speakers use English

and Xosa, don't they?" "Reply s That is so".

Question ; "And Afrikaans"? Reply s "I don't remember

about Afrikaans." Question ; "And you can't remember 15

today whether a particular speech was made in English or

in Xosa?" Your reply was "No." Did you say that? Is

that correctly recorded? I now remember, My Lord.

Was that correctly recorded is my question?

It was correctly recorded. 20

And is that what you said at the Preparatory

Examination? Correct, My Lord.

But you say now, nearly two years later, you

are able to remember? I remember now, My Lord.

What has refreshed your memory? I remember. 25

What has refreshed your memory is my

question? Nothing has refreshed my memory, I just

remember.

Would I be correct in saying that you some-

times leave out whole sentences and you do not indicate 30

in your notes when you do so? Correct, My Lord.

Would I be correct in saying that when you

get a complicated - what you think is a complicated

10014. (A. GAZA)

sentence or an expression by a speaker, you do not

record it? If I don't understand the sentence I don't

record it.

I didn't ask you about sentences that you

didn't understand. I asked you about sentences which are 5

complicated? I don't know what you mean by complicated

sentences, whether you think I don't understand.

I want to read to you what you said, not what

I said, I wasn't cross-examining you as a matter of fact,

what you said. Page 4412 ; "You don't indicate when 10

something has been left out", and your reply was this s

"I try to write down what is said by a speaker, but if

that should--oec.ur, that phrase or sentence which is __

complicated, then I Te-a-ve^out that entire sentence". Did

you say that? Is that correctl-y--j:..e.eQ£.dad? It is. 15

Did you say that? What I meant is that

what I don't understand.

So you leave out sentences which you don't

understand? Quite correct.

Nov/ there are quite a few sentences which you 20

don't understand, are there not? There may be.

I am asking you for your experience. You see,

you were taking these meetings down iBnce a week for a

period of nearly three years, and during that time, am

I correct in stating that there were quite a few senten- 25

ces which you couldn't understand? Correct, My Lord.

And would I be correct in saying that Xosa

is a language which is full of idiom, full of figurative

speech? Correct.

And has a great number of complicated ideas 30

which have to be translated idiomatically? Correct,

My Lord.

V

10015. (A. GAZA)

Now when you come across a sentence in Xosa

which to your knowledge is expressed in a form of a figure

of speech or in idiomatic form, what do you try and do?

Do you try and give it its true meaning or do you merely

record the exact words used by the speaker? I try to 5

record the exact words used by the speaker.

Without giving it its true meaning? I try

to get exactly what the speaker said.

In other words, you write down his words?

Well, you form up the sentence from Xosa to English. 10

You try to take up what the speaker said, to try and convey

exactly what he meant.

But what I want to know is this, do you do it

by means of indicating in English what the idiomatic

expression means or do you merely put down the speaker's 15

words? The speaker's words, My Lord.

You see, because I perhaps can do no better

than refer you to what you said at the Preparatory

Examination at page 441. The following sentence was put

to you ; "We must organise the people, v/e must haveunity 20

amongst the people. We must prepare for a political

struggle. If once we light a fire it will spread right

through the people", and then you said in that case the

speaker came with a sentence and the thing was clear as

a whole. Then the question was ; "When we put it that 25

way you wouldn't understand, would you, that the speaker

was urging people to take boxes of matches and set fire

to things". You said that the speaker had already

explained from the start as he came along with the

saitence. "You vculd then understand by that that he meant 30

'we must start a political movement', that is like if we

once light a fire", and your reply was "Definitely".

10016. (A. GAZA)

"But you would still write it down in your notes, an exact

translation of we must light a fire", and your reply was

"Just as he uttered it". Question "If you hadn't heard

the first three sentences about organising the people and

so on, you would still write down in your notes 'we must 5

light a fire'" and your reply was "Yes, that can happen".

And then you said you were not an expert on the English

language. Would that be a correct indication of the

manner in which you recorded speeches? Correct, My

Lord. 10

I take it that you would also agree, Gaza, that

there are large portions to be found in your notes which

just don't make sense? That could be, I don't know,

I can't say.

You keep on making me refer back to what you 15

said before. "By M r . Slovo % I know - I notice that there

are portions of your notes which don't make sense. Would

you agree with that observation". Your reply was ; "I do".

That is on page 4413• Is that correct? Correct.

"And you concede the possibility that part of 20

the reason at any rate why some of your notes don't make

sense is because of your imperfect recording" and your

reply was "That is so". Correct? Correct.

And over and above the fact that you leave

out whole sentences, sentences which you don't understand 25

or which are complicated, I take it you have also got to

leave out large portions of speeches because you can't

keep up with the speakers? Correct, My Lord.

And over and above the fact that you leave

out sentences for the reasons that you have already testi- 30

fied to, you are also selective in your recordings. If

you think that a person isn't saying anything v which

10017. (A. GAZA)

to you is important, then you don't record it? That

is not correct, My Lord.

Isn't it? Do you know that in your notes on

a number of occasions you have given the name of a speaker

and you haven't recorded his speech and behind his name .5

you have written the words "Nothing of importance"?=

That is so.

So I am putting it to you that when a speaker

sometimes says something which you don't think is impor-

tant you don't record it? When it is not worth 10

recording, My Lord.

When you don't think it is worth recording

you don't record it? When he doesn't convey anything.

To you? To me.

That is why I say when you don't think it is 15

worth recording you don't record it, because you think

it is not important? It doesn't convey anything.

Because you think it is not important, as you

put in your note "Nothing of importance"? Yes.

I w^nt to turn immediately to Exhibit G. 628. 20

That was the meeting of the 1st May, 1955 at which

Ndimba is alleged to have mado a speech and in regard to

which the witness says Ndimba was prosecuted. Now you

gaveevidence at the trial, did you not? I did.

And at the trial, under cross-examination, 25

did you say when you were being cross-examined by

- about Ndimba's speech, that there might have been

things that you did not take dcwn? I can't remember.

Is it so, that you - that there might have

been things which you did not take down? It is 30

possible, My Lord.

Did you say at this trial that it is possible

10018. (A. G AZA)

that you left out whole sentences? I can't remember

what I said at the time.

Is it possible that you left out whole senten-

ces? I have aire- dy told the Court that it is possible

that I might have left out some. 5

Some whole sentences? Correct? I don't

remember saying that.

I am not asking you any long whether you said

it. I am asking you whether you now will concede that it

is possible that you left out some whole sentences?—Jit 10

is possible.

In recording this and other speeches. It is

possible. And you also said, did you not, as you said at

the Preparatory Examination that if you don't followna

sentence you leave it out? That is so. 15

And did you also at this trial say that some

phrases which you recorded were not the exact phrases

used by the Accused? I cannot remember what I said at

the trial.

I'll just read out to you from page 4 of the 20

record which was handed to me by the Crown, "There might

have been some things I did not take down. Some phrases

were not the exact phrases used by the Accused". If that

is recorded as having been said by you, would it be

correct? If it was recorded that way, then I said it. 25

Would you admit it today? It is on record.

I say do you admit it today that some of the

phrases which you recorded were not the exact phrases

used by the Accused? "There might have been some things

which I did not take down. Some phrases were not the 30

exact phrases used by the Accused". You admit that that

is correct? Correct, My Lord.

10019. (A. GAZA)

Will you turn to Ndimba's speech as recorded

"by you on Exhibit G. 628. First of all, let us get this

clear. This meeting according to you lasted from 3.30 p.m.

to 6 p.m. and it is recorded by you on l^ss than two

pages, double spacing. That is correct, is it not? 5

Correct.

I want to come to the portion where the speaker

is saying this ; "The government and the local authorities

are leading the Africans to a bloodshed. I want to warn

the local authorities if they regard the Africans as 10

animals, not very long we are going to show them that we

are not animals. If the Union Government wants to declare

war he must apply to the nations of African and Asian

people." Now in terms of my instructions, what Ndimba

said was - he was indicating that it was the government 15

authorities who were leading the Africans to bloodshed, in

terms of what you read there. And then he said that if

the Union Government want,3 to declare war, they should

apply to the United Nations of African and Asian people.

Is it possible that you could have left the word "united" 20

out? I recorded what Ndimba said.

Is it possible that you could have left that

one word out, "United"? I can't say that.

Is it possible, that is all I am asking you?

I recorded what he said, My Lord. 25

Why don't you answer my question. I am not

suggesting that he!

didn't use every single one of the

words that you have written down here. I am asking you

whether he used an additional word, "united"?

BY M R . JUSTICE KENNEDY s 30

What is the "United Nations of Asia and

Africa"?

10020. (A. GAZA)

BY MR. BERRANGE s

That I don't know, My Lord. These are merely

my instructions as to what was said. The Accused on this

occasion was speaking in English for the first time ahd

I don't know how well he was expressing himself. 5

By - if he said that, My Lord, then I didn't hear it.

So he might have said it. Then we come to

that part where he says "We must change this Government

to a democratic government. Let us move forward to

freedom. Let us demand our country by force and volunteer 10

to be strong". Now can you today deny that he said "Let

us demand our country by our strength' or by force and that

the word "force" was interpreted by the interpreter into word

Xosa, or the/strength was interpreted into Xosa by the

use of the word "force" or don't you know? I can't 15

say.

Would you deny that he said "Let us demand

our country by force" or by "strength" whichever it may

be, and added the words "and not by arms" and volunteer

to be strong? I didn't get the sentence that way. 20

Is it possible that he used the words "and

not by arms"? I don't know.

Would you admit that it is possible? My

Lord, that thing I would have recorded it.

Then the next sentence is this "If the 25

instructions are given to the volunteers to kill, they

must kill"? Yes.

Is it possible that he went on to say, however,

that - "But if instructions are not given to kill, you

must not kill". Is it possible that he said that? 30 I didn't hear it.

It is not possible that he said it?

10021. (A. GAZ£!)

No, I don't say it is not possible, I didn't hear it.

Well you were very much more definite at the

time you gave evidence at this trial. This is what you

said at page 4-, and I want you to say whether this has

b een correctly or incorrectly recorded s "It is possible 5

that I left out a whole sentence. If I don't follow a

sentence I leave it. Accused could have used the words

'if they are not given instructions to do so, they must

not do it' after the sentence "If instructions are given

to the volunteers they must kill'". Would you agree with 10

that today? I might have said that at the trial.

What I am asking you is might Ndimba have said

that at the meeting? I don't know, My Lord.

You are not prepared to deny it? I wouldn't

deny it. 15

Then why are you prepared to deny that he

might have added the words, after saying let us demand

our country by force, that he might have added the words

"and not by arms"? It seems to be a clear sentence,

My Lord. 20

Why are you prepared to deny that he didn't

use the words "and not by arms" if you are prepared to

concede that he might have used the words "if they are

not given instructions to do so they must not do it"?

That is a clear sentence to understand, My Lord. 25

I don't follow you. I am suggesting to you

that he used the words "and not by arms" and you say if

he had used them you would have recorded them, yet you

have not recorded the words "and if they are not given

instructions to do so they must not do it". Why do you 30

distinguish between the two? That could have been

recorded by m e .

10022. (A. G-AZO)

That could have been recorded. But it wasn't

recorded? Because I did not hear it, My Lord.

So he might have said it without you hearing

it? It is possible.

Very well, I won't take it any further. You 5

suggest that you may not have recorded these things because

of the fact that you may not have heard it. It also may

be due to the fact that you couldn't keep up, isn't that

so? In the case of Ndimba he used an interpreter.

I am aware of the fact that he used an inter- 10

preter. I am asking you whether one of the reasons for

your not recording some of the sentences may not be due

to the fact that you were not able to keep up with him?

It is possible.

So despite the fact that he was using an 15

interpreter, you may still have been unable tonkeep up

with him, isn't that so? It is possible, My Lord.

Because this is in fact what you said at the

trial. "The actual writing of my notes I did while the

Accused's words were being interpreted. Sometime the 20

Accused commenced speaking before I had finished writing

the previous sentence. At other times I finished before

he was ready to speak"? Oorroct.

So we can infei» that even if an interpreter

is used, there are occasions on which you can't keep up? 25

Correct, My Lord.

I have had a look at your pencil notes, and

from your handwriting it would appear to me as if you

are a somewhat slow writer. Is that correct? Correct.

You are a slow writer? Correct. 30

And that is why there are so many hours of

speechifying as against so little writing by you?

t

10023. (A. GAZO)

It is possible.

And I want to suggest another reason why you

may have left out some of these sentences and you may have

got the meaning wrong, is because of the fact that idiomatic

phrases may have been used in English? You mean in the 5

case of Ndimba?

Yes? Then there is always the Xosa there.

Were you listening to the Xosa? Often.

Do you know what words were used by the inter-

preter for the word "force"? Yes, I think so. 10

What is the word? Can you remember it today?

Do you mjan in Xosa now?

Yes, the Xosa word that was used for the

English word "force" which you have recorded? No, I

can't remember. 15

Is there a Xosa expression "in a good spirit"

Is there a Xosa word for the expression "in a good spirit"?

It depends on the sentence.

It depends on the idea that the speaker is

trying to express? Correct. 20

And that so often is the case, is it not, in

Xosa? You told Their Lordships that you speak and

understand both Xosa and Zulu, correct? That is what

you said in your evidence in chief? Yes.

I have had written out by somebody else 25

a certain sentence, two sentences, which I would like

you to translate for Their Lordships. It is in Zulu.

Would you read it out aloud in Zulu? I don't think

there is any point in your reading it in Zulu, because

it probably won't be able to be recorded on the record. 30

My Lord, I'll hand in the document I have written it on.

Would you kindly translate that sentence? Can you translate

10024. (A. GAZO)

it? I am afraid My Lord it is a waste of time, I

won't get the whole sentence right.

You see there is a reference to an assegai

there in the first sentence, isn't there? I don't see

anything about an assegai. 5

You can't translate that? Nothing about an

assegai.

Are you sure? In the third line.

Yes, there is something. Do you see in

- in reporting speeches, you do your own translation, do 10

you not? Correct, My Lord.

You say you can't translate that, it would be

a waste of time? Yes, My Lord.

Will we make this document G# 628a, I want to

suggest to you why you can't translate that, is because 15

it is again - there is some idiomatic expression in that,

and you were always in difficulty when you find idicn

having to be translated by you into English, isn't that

the position? Quite correct, My Lord.

1*11 give you a sentence in Xosa. (HANDS 20

DOCUMENT TO WITNESS). Can you translate that? "In

1954 the African National Congress decided to crush the

government of the nationals."

Before we go on further, what is the word for

crush that is used there? (WITNESS GIVES WORD), 25

I see. Now may that not as well be translated

into "defeat"^ Won't it be a perfectly good translation

to use the word "defeat" instead of "crush"? You can

use both.

Go on to the next sentence? "It is there- 30

fore necessary that we don't buy anything that is being

manufactured by the Nationalists",

10025. (A. GAZO)

Yes? "We must not eat anything manufactured

by the Nationalists". That is what the sentence conveys

to m e .

Go on? That is the lot.

Please, the - surely the correct interpretation 5

of the last sentence is "We must starve them and smash

them completely"? It depends in what sense you use it.

So it can be "Wo must not eat anything manu-

factured by the Nationalists" or it might be "We must

starve them and smash them completely". It can be one or 10

other of those? Quite correct.

You can translate it in any way you like?

Correct.

Ycu are taking a very long time to do this

interpreting of three sentences? I am under test here, 15

My Lord.

You mean that you are more accurate here, is

that it? Do you usually take as long as that to translate

when..? Not at the meetings.

This would be the ordinary sort of things that 20

you would hear said at the meetings, is it not? The

atmosphere is much more different to the meetings and the

Court.

The atmosphere may be more different. You

mean that here you are nervous, is that it? I won't 25

say I am nervous, but I am under test, that is the main

thing.

But you will agree that it has taken you a

long time to interpret this? Yes.

And they are very simple sentences, aren't 30

they?

BY ME. JUSTICE BEKKER s

The phrase "must not eat anything manufactured

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2011

LEGAL NOTICES:

Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner.

Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only.

People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.