BBL IN SENATE | Ceasefire Mechanism in the BBL, April 13, 2015

Republic of the Philippines CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES

SENA TE Pasay City

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT

JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND

RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES

DATE : Monday, April 13, 2015 TIME : 10:00 a.m. VENUE : Sen. Claro M. Recto and Sen. Jose P. Laurel Rooms 2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard

Pasay City AGENDA : SBN 2408 - Ceasefire Mechanism of the

Bangsamoro Basic Law (By: Sens. Drilon, Sotto, Legarda, Recto, Binay, Escudero, Aquino, Angara, Cayetano (P.), Honasan and Guingona)

ATTENDANCE SENATORS PRESENT:

Hon. Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos Jr. Chairman, Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes

Hon. Teofisto TG L. Guingona III Chairman, Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation

Hon. Ma. Lourdes Nancy S. Binay - Member Hon. Vicente C. Sotto III - Member Hon. Paolo Benigno Bam Aquino - Member Hon. Francis G. Escudero - Member

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 2 of 4 GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:

Hon. Teresita Quintos-Deles - Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process Mr. Neil Simon Silva - Assistant Secretary, Department of Justice (DOJ) Mr. Mohagher Iqbal Chairman, Bangsamoro Transition Commission (BTC) Prof. Miriam Coronel-Ferrer - Chairperson, Government Peace Negotiating Panel for Talks with the MILF Datu Abul Khayr Alonto - Chairman, Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF) Central Committee Atty. Akmad Sakkam - Vice Chairman, BTC Mr. Rashid Ladiasan - Chairperson, MILF Coordinating Committee on the Cessation of Hostilities (CCCH) MGen Dato Sheikh Moksin Bin - Head of Mission, International

Sheikh Hassan Monitoring Team (IMT) BGeneral Carlito Galvez Jr. - Chairperson, GPH-CCCH

BGeneral Manolito Orense - Chairperson, GPH-Ad Hoc Joint Action Group General Gregorio Pio P. Catapang Jr.- Chief of Staff, Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) MGeneral Edmundo R. Pangilinan - Commander 6th Infantry Division, Philippine Army LGeneral Rustico O. Guerrero - Commander, Western

Mindanao Command, AFP Major Carlos Sol - Secretariat Head GPH-CCCH PC/Supt. Jose Erwin Villacorte - CIDG-PNP Mr. Erik Forner - Ambassador of Norway Mr. William J. Hovland - Chief Operations Officer, IMT Mr. Aizzudin Bin Arrifin - Head Coordinator, Civilian Protection Component, IMT

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 3 of 4 SENATORS STAFF: Mr. Juan Baras - O/S Marcos

Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez - O/S Binay Mr. Alcones Franklin Paul - O/S Binay Ms. Vina Panus - O/S Osmea III Ms. Margie Manlunas - O/S Angara Mr. Hutch M. Altavas - O/S Sotto Ms. Andrea Gomez - O/S Sotto Mr. Rosk Costuna - O/S Sotto Ms. Kathleen Sonza - O/S Sotto Mr. Mark Gamboa - O/S Recto Ms. Charlotte Franco - O/S Escudero Mr. Dominic Lacbayo - O/S Legarda Ms. Zheanne Aeson Dantis - O/S P. Cayetano Ms. Patty Taga - O/S A. Cayetano Mr. Sam Fernandez - O/S A. Cayetano

SENATE SECRETARIAT:

Ms. Assumption Ingrid B. Reyes - Legislative Committee Secretary Ms. Cleofe P. Caturla - Legislative Committee

Stenographer Ms. Helen S. Gayapa - - do Ms. Cindell B. Gealan - - do Ms. Christine M. Nery - - do Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz - - do Mr. Guillermo E. Sapinoso Jr. - - do Ms. Nida A. Mancol - - do Ms. Maribel P. Mendoza - - do Ms. Ma. Emperatriz L. Novero - - do Ms. Susana Grace L. Robles - - do Mr. Rommel P. Alger - - do Ms. Norma G. Dizon - - do - Ms. Mylene Palino - Legislative Committee Clerk Mr. Jimmy Gaviola - - do

Ms. Abigael Olson - Legislative Page, OSAA Mr. Eric Jalandoon - - do Mr. Raul Balansag - - do Mr. Allan Laureano - Audio Operator

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Monday, April 13, 2015 Page 4 of 4

Mr. Joey Busalpa - - do - (For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 1 AT 10:21 A.M., HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS JR., CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT, CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Good morning, ladies and

gentlemen.

The Senate hearing of the Committee on Local Government joint

with the Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation, and the

Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes of

Monday, 13 April 2015, is hereby called to order.

I would like to, first of all, recognize for the record the presence

of Senator Nancy Binay, Senator Chiz Escudero, and Senator Tito

Sotto.

Also, I would like to recognize for the record our resource

persons here this morning: Secretary Teresita Quintos-Deles; from the

Department of Justice, Assistant Secretary Neil Simon Silva; the

chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission, the gentleman

that we have come to know as Mr. Mohagher Iqbal, together with Atty.

Akmad Sakkam, the vice chair of the Bangsamoro Transition

Commission; Professor Miriam Coronel-Ferrer, the chairperson of the

Government Peace Negotiating Panel; Lt. General Gregorio Catapang;

Maj. General Pangilinan, the commander of the 6th ID; Lt. General

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 2 Rustico Guerrero, the commander of Western Mindanao Command of

the AFP; CIDG Police Chief Supt. Benjamin Magalong is represented by

Police Chief Supt. Jose Erwin Villacorte, CIDG-PNP; Brig. General

Galvez of the GPH-CCCH; Major Sol, the Secretariat head of the GPH-

CCCH; Brig. General Manolito Orense, chairperson for the GPH-AHJAG;

Mr. Rashid Ladiasan, chairperson of the MILF-CCCH; and from the

International Monitoring Team, Mr. William Hovland, who is the chief

operations officer of the International Monitoring Team; and the head

coordinator of the Civilian Protection Component of the International

Monitoring Team, Mr. Aizuddin Bin Arrifin; also with us is the chairman

of the MNLF Central Committee, Ambassador Datu Abul Khayr Alonto;

His Excellency, the Ambassador of Norway, His Excellency Erik Forner.

I think that, at least, for now is the full list of our resource persons.

So, good morning, ladies and gentlemen and thank you for your

appearance here. This is the resumption of the hearings on the draft

Bangsamoro Basic law.

The agenda for today was to focus very clearly on the

mechanism that we used, that we have seen in Mamasapano and in

other encounters wherein a ceasefire is instituted and both sides

withdraw from further military action in case of an encounter. The

reason that I have asked for these hearings is very simple, is that we

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 3 were not able during the Mamasapano hearings to fully explore

precisely what the timing and the activities and the coordination and

the agreements that were made between the AHJAG Republic of the

Philippines and the CCCH Republic of the Philippines and the AHJAG

and CCCH of the MILF. There is some question as to when exactly the

process of instituting a ceasefire in Mamasapano, when it began and

where the events that eventually led to ceasefire, but very late already

at 4:00 p.m. of Sunday 25, January. So, that was our purpose here

today.

However, circumstances have intervened especially with the

revelation that the chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission

and the head of the negotiating panel for the MILF, Mr. Mohagher Iqbal

has, in fact, been using an alias during all of his dealings with the

peace panel. And so, we would like perhaps to dispose of this issue

and see how much clarification we can get.

So, let me direct the first questions to Chairman Iqbal.

Chairman Iqbal, what is the truth exactly to what came out in the

House of Representatives hearing that Iqbal is not in fact your name?

MR. IQBAL. Its my nom de guerre.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, and I understand.

And the nom de guerre is generally recognized as used because during

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 4 the time of war there were security concerns. And for somebody who

is a combatant, perhaps for the protection of himself and his family

and his associates, that it not be known to the opposition who exactly

what their identity is. But, Mr. Iqbal, again, this calls into question

many things.

Number one, precisely, the signing of the ceasefire agreement

was the cessation of war. And besides, if the reasoning behind your

continuing use of your nom de guerre is for security purposes, you

have made public appearances, you are known by now by the entire

country. So, what is the need for this continuing use? And again,

there is a suspicion of deception why would you hide behind a nom de

guerre when you are signing a peace agreement with the government

and then you are negotiating a peace agreement with the government?

This is something that perhaps doesnt go so much to the legal

question of the use of a nom de guerre but also to the questions of

good faith on the part of the MILF. Why did the MILF feel the need to

present us with a negotiator who is unable to use his real name?

MR. IQBAL. I think I should give a very brief context of

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, go ahead, please.

Yes, please do.

MR. IQBAL. why we have this situation right now.

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla I-1 April 13, 2015 10:21 a.m. 5

First, starting a revolutionary struggle is a very difficult and very

dangerous enterprise that would require, first of all, not just the

security of the person involved, like myself but the cause that he or

she I espousing for. Otherwise, if youre not able really to succeed in

concealing our real identity not to deceive people but merely to protect

my person, to protect my family, to protect the struggle, then perhaps

I would not have been around today. And that is precisely why we use

nom de guerre, to protect myself, to protect my family, and to protect

the struggle. As I said, if I was harmed, I was killed, perhaps I would

not appear in this august body and I would not be the head of the MILF

negotiating panel. Especially in our case, when we started our

revolutionary struggle in 1972, the situation was very hot. Many of my

families, my relatives were merely taken, arrested, incarcerated and in

jails for how many months, for how many weeks. So, that would give

enough reason for anyone in the Moro National Liberation Front

because we are still part of the Moro National Liberation Front really to

adopt measures that would ensure that their security is not

compromised.

Secondly, my nom de guerre Mohagher Iqbal has been used as

early as Februarycpc

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES HSGayapa II-1 April 13, 2015 10:31 a.m. 1

MR. IQBAL. as early as February 1979. Your Honor, I think

you are still very young at that time. The group of Salamat Hashim

was invited by your late father to talk about peace although the

meeting or the engagement was officially with the Moro National

Liberation Front. But anyhow, I think it was policy of government to

reach out to other groups who are also fighting the government. So,

there was an invitation by your late father to the MNLF new leadership

because at that time it was--the MILF now is known or was known as

new MNLF leadership. So, your late father invited representative

from the new MNLF leadership and the new MNLF leadership under the

chairmanship Salamat Hashim sent a three-man delegation to

Malacaang and that was in February 1979. One of the

representatives was former governor ... and then another one is a very

senior leader of the new MNLF leadership in the person of ... who is

another nom de guerre and then I was part of that delegation to

Malacaang. So, in the document we signed, I used the name

Mohagher Iqbal. I think that record is still available. It can be

checked and I already used the word Mohagher Iqbal as my nom de

guerre.

And secondly, our engagement with the government of the

Republic of the Philippines, formal engagement, was in January 7,

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES HSGayapa II-1 April 13, 2015 10:31 a.m. 2 1997 when we were invited by the president of the Republic of the

Philippines, President Fidel Ramos, and that engagement was political.

It was a political engagement, not strictly speaking on the part of the

MILF as a legal engagement but it was a political engagement. And

then when we faced our counterparts from the government, we carry

signed documents, signed authority coming from the central

committee of the MILF and, of course, articulating the aspirations of

our people. Meaning, our mandate was covered by official document.

And then aside from that, how many presidents? Already four

presidents, excluding your late father because there was no formal

engagement. From President Fidel Ramos to Joseph Estrada, to

Arroyo, and then to Aquino. This nom de guerre has never been

questioned. And I think it is part of confidence-building that the

government of the Republic of the Philippines should treat the MILF as

it is, as a part of confidence-building. Meaning, as partners in the

negotiation or peace process, and then I think it is not part of good

meeting or good arrangement that you suspect the other side. So,

what has taken place is that the government of the Republic of the

Philippines had taken the MILF as it was or as it is and then we also

consider the government of the Republic of the Philippines as a

legitimate partner in peace process.

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So, in short, the use of a nom de guerre is normal in a

revolutionary organization.

And on the issue of the legal aspect of that, I am not a lawyer, I

cannot argue on that. But mainly my statement here is about a

political engagement between the government and MILF and it should

be taken as that.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Chairman Iqbal,

but you see, you know, again on the question of security, that is

understandable when you are still under arms and fighting a war

against the government and that is understandable. But as I have

mentioned, perhaps you could reconsider because the question of

security no longer applies as you are here, you are here before the

media of the entire nation. I think that the question of security we

have gone beyond that and we are precisely in the process of peace

agreement and formalizing and institutionalizing those elements of that

peace agreement in the draft BBL.

Secondly, your point about confidence-building, I have to say

that it does not inspire confidence when I am negotiating with

somebody and I do not know what their real identity is. The effect of

using a nom de guerre during a negotiation is precisely contrary to

confidence-building. And then there are, of course, technical questions

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES HSGayapa II-1 April 13, 2015 10:31 a.m. 4 as to what your true identity is if you are in fact a Filipino, number

one. How can we verify that if we are only talking about nom de

guerre? You are the chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition

Commission upon the passage and the plebiscite of the BBL. And the

plebiscite subsequent to that, you will be the head of the government

of the Bangsamoro. So, immediately, the official documents, the funds

that will be entrusted to the transition commission will be under your

control.

So, again, the question of your identity is something that

becomes central. Although at this point, in a legal context, it is in fact,

I would say, maybe a tangential issue. But when we proceed further

along this process, it no longer is a tangential issue. So, that is why

there are concerns that have been made public by not only the

legislators but also in the general public and other commentators.

So, perhaps to clarify all of these, Mr. Iqbal, what is your true

name?

MR. IQBAL. Can I first provide context on what you have

stated?

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You may provide context

but please answer that question, what is your true name?

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MR. IQBAL. The government has known everything about me,

engaged in the government for 42 years. So, I think nothing can be

hidden from the government, they know it. So, I think the

government should answer for that, not from me because, you know, I

will provide context. First, in our point of view, for other people who

understand where we are coming from and we also understand where

other people are coming from, in the context of a revolutionary

struggle, the engagement between government and the MILF is, as I

said, is a political engagement. But before that, you know, the MILF is

a revolutionary struggle and as a revolutionary organization, we want

to achieve our objective through armed struggle, meaning, through the

use of arms. But in the course of times, then we have come to a point

that it is better to talk peace rather than to continue the war because

we know that we cannot defeat the government conventionally

because the government has all the materials: they have tanks, they

have airplanes, naval boats, etcetera, etcetera. So, we cannot defeat

the government in a conventional warfare. But in the same manner,

government cannot defeat us in a guerilla warfare because we can

always survive and it has been proven for 42 years that we are still

here so that better part of judgment for government and the MILF--

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I am sorry, Chairman, we

are wandering very far away from the question, very simple question.

MR. IQBAL. No, but I am providing, Your Honor, a context so

that--

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And I think the person who

can finally verify your identity is you, not the government. So, again, I

ask the question, Sir, who are you? What is your name?

MR. IQBAL. I am coming to that, Your Honor, if you would

permit me to continue very briefly only.

So, on that statement I said that it is better for both parties to

talk peace and that was the start why we started to talk peace in 1997.

And then, you know, the position of government is really from a

position of--strict position because, you know, in a negotiation, the

government and the MILF as in any other negotiation would start from

a position and from that position they will try to talk, they will try to

compromise, it is not about getting, it is not about giving but giving

and getting, and getting and giving until such time that we sign all the

documents, almost 100 documents already, Your Honor. And then the

most important documents that we signed are the framework

agreement on the Bangsamoro and the comprehensive agreement on

the Bangsamoro. But those are political documents. On the part of

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES HSGayapa II-1 April 13, 2015 10:31 a.m. 7 government, they cannot implement that except some parts of it. For

instance, normalization, government can implement that. But on the

other substantive issues, it cannot be implemented by government

because essentially their ... are instruments to establish.../hsg

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CBGealan III-1 April 13, 2015 10:41 a.m. 1

MR. IQBAL. are instruments to establish a legal entity, a

political entity in Mindanao or somethingwhat Im referring is the

Bangsamoro government. So government necessarily has to

undertake a legal process and thats why the Bangsamoro Transition

Commission was constituted composed of representatives coming from

MILF, eight, and seven from government, then they crafted the

Bangsamoro Basic Law, and this is a legal document. Thats why my

appearance here is as chairman of the Bangsamoro Transition

Commission because if my appearance here is as official of the Moro

Islamic Liberation Front which is still a revolutionary organization, I

think I cannot appear here, Your Honor. But my appearance here is

precisely as member of the Bangsamoro Transition Commission so that

when the BBL would be passed by Congress hopefully, a good BBL will

pass Congress, and then it would be ratified by the people, it would be

implemented, that would be the time that everything will normalize

and we can disclose everything, our identities, we can disclose that.

But at this point in time, I request this honorable body not to compel

me to disclose my identity. But I still meet halfway. The government

knows my identity and perhaps its

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). In that case, can we turn to

Secretary Deles?

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Do you know the identity of the gentleman that is here before us

today?

MS. DELES. It is known by government, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Then what is it? What is

the true name of the gentleman who is the chairman of the

Bangsamoro TransI do not even know what to call him anymore

because it is clear that this is an alias. The government should not

surely the government can share such an important information.

You know, again, in terms of legal issues, this is something that

at this point does not nullify any of the documents that Chairman Iqbal

has signed. But as we move forward, it will become an important issue

because there are questions as to his nationality, questions as to his

status, and exactly who he is. So if the government knows, will the

government share it with the Committee?

MS. DELES. Your Honor, definitely as we move forward and

when the MILF already is fully participating in government, certainly by

that time all of the legal steps to ensure that everything is legal,

certainly Mr. Iqbal, if he were to run for office, would have already

legalized the name that he will be using. But, Your Honor, it is the

Department of Foreign Affairs that received the evidence of his name

when the passport was issued, Your Honor.

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For the Office of the Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process as

had been recounted in the history, this started in 1997. Mr. Iqbal has

been signing all of the papers. He has never disappeared. He has

never been seen to commit any act that made us question that alias.

Mr. Iqbal has stood by everything that he has signed, and the MILF

stands by Mr. Iqbal and everything that he has signed. When this

administration took over and the talks were resumed, we received a

certification of all of their panel members and team members and the

chair that has identified there was Mr. Iqbal

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, the long

and short of it,

you will not share this information with the Committee?

MS. DELES. Your Honors, we understand that there are still

security threats on him and his family and his

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, the

gentleman is sitting here in front of all the cameras. There are millions

of people who will see his face.

MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor, but

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The question of security

surely is no longer part of the context in which we are operating.

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MS. DELES. Yes, but that is why, Your Honor, in the matter of

his engagement with government in the peace negotiations, he is a

very public person.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely. So

MS. DELES. But he does have a family. He does have a family

that carries his name. He does have children, young children that

carries that name and we know that the MILF still has enemies and

would love to see some problem with him.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think we can assure

anybody here that non-combatants are not targets of the AFP, or the

PNP, of any agency in the government.

MS. DELES. The agencies in government, Your Honor, but there

are others that do not want this process to succeed. For Mr. Iqbal and

his family and relations to be submitted to that kind of problem, Your

Honor, which requires that he does invoke his right to privacy, Your

Honor. But in as far as the peace agreement goes, all of the peace

negotiations are public, Your Honor, and here we make accountable

Mr. Iqbal, as we know him.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah. Madam Secretary,

we are all public persons here. And his appointment or designation by

the MILF as chief negotiator and subsequent chairman to the

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Bangsamoro Transition Commission makes him a public person and it

does not, as I said earlier, inspire confidence in anyone when you are

sitting across the table and you are not sure of the identity of the

person you are talking to.

MS. DELES. But we are sure, Your Honor, of everything that Mr.

Iqbal has

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, you do

understand that does not inspire confidence?

MS. DELES. But, Your Honor, we are negotiating with the MILF.

It is not Mr. Iqbal who is accountable for any of the peace agreements,

and they have designated Mr. Iqbal to be their negotiator and insofar

as that goes, he has never disappeared. He has never used any other

name. He has never declined or denied anything that he has signed,

and the MILF has not declined it, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary

MS. DELES. That is where we are coming from.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). we are not accusing him

of any such things. We just want to know his name. Is that so much

to ask?

Anyway, the short answer is you will not share with us that

information.

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman.

MS. DELES. Your Honor, we can check with the Office of the

President about being able to disclose it in an executive session.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Do you know his true

name, Madam Secretary?

MS. DELES. It is on the record, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, not the record. Do you

know? To your own personal knowledge, do you know his true name?

MS. DELES. No, Your Honor, as I have never looked at the

papers that were submitted for all his legal documents.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, after Senator Binay.

SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. Yes, Senator

Escudero, after Senator Nancy as OIC-Chair

SEN. BINAY. Mr. Chair, just to reiterateSecretary Deles, hindi

nyo ho alam?

MS. DELES. Your Honor, I know the name but I do notwhen

you say, Do you know to your personal knowledge, Your Honor, I do

not have that document, but government does have it.

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SEN. BINAY. How about Chairman Ferrer, do you know his real

name?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. BINAY. Kailan nyo ho nalaman iyong totoong pangalan

niya?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. When I was doing my research on the

armed conflicts in the Philippines way back in the 1990s, Your Honor.

SEN. BINAY. So what is his real name?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. That matter, Your Honor, I think there

are privacy and security issues involved here and whatever we say can

affect the lives of people who are related to him. Therefore, Your

Honor, I think the right to privacy is a superior right that belongs to

any public official, even public official has the right to privacy.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Escudero.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ginoong Iqbal, mayroon po bang tao na nagngangalang

Mohagher Iqbal maliban sa inyo?

MR. IQBAL. I only know of one, me.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Saan nyo po nakuha iyong pangalan? Kaya

po kasi tinatanong mula sa legal na perspektiba kung ano ang totoong

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pangalan nyo dahil baka may naliligaw ho diyan sa gilid-gilid, kung

saan mang parte ng bansa o ng Malaysia o kung saan man na

nagdadala din po ng ganyang pangalan at siya iyong totoong

Mohagher Iqbal. Hindi naman po kasi Peter Pan iyong ginamit nyo.

Posibleng may taong nagtataglay ng ganyang pangalan. You may

have not met him yet but its possible, correct me if Im wrong, that

there is a person with that name.

MR. IQBAL. We cannot discount that but I dont know.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Posible po.

Ang Iqbal po ba ay normal na apelyido sa Maguindanao kung

saan man po kayo pinanganak?

MR. IQBAL. Well, I do not want to sound philosophical, Your

Honor, but possibilities are unending.

SEN. ESCUDERO. General Catapang, sabi po ni Ginoong Iqbal

alam daw ng gobyerno lahat. Matagal nang kalaban ng pamahalaan

ang MILF bago po sila pumirma sa mga usaping pangkapayapaan at

kasunduang pangkapayapaan. Alam po ba ng AFP ang totoong identity

ni Ginoong Iqbal na kalaban sa matagal na panahon ng AFP?

MR. CATAPANG. Mr. Chair, Your Honor, to my knowledge, we

dont know the real name of Mr. Iqbal.

24


SEN. ESCUDERO. Kaya po siguro hanggang ngayon hindi pa rin

po natin nasusupil ang anumang problema doon.

Hindi ho talaga, sir?

MR. CATAPANG. To my personal knowledge, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. No, to the knowledge of the AFP speaking as

the chief of staff.

MR. CATAPANG. No, Your Honor/cbg

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MR. CATAPANG. No, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. You do not?

MR. CATAPANG. Yes, we do not know, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS). Just to interject.

Would you have access to that information as the chief of staff of

the AFP? Because Secretary Deles has said the government has this

information. Do you have access to that information?

MR. CATAPANG. We do not have access but well find out,

Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So sa hinaba-haba ho ng panahon, mahigit

na kumulang apatnapung taon nang bakbakan diyan sa Mindanao,

Ginoong Iqbal, matagal na ho kayong nakikipaglaban sa gobyerno,

hindi ba? How many years, sir, 40? Even longer.

MR. CATAPANG. Forty-two years.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Forty-two years. So sa apatnaput-

dalawang taong pakikipaglaban ng mga Muslim rebels, Moro rebels sa

Mindanao, the AFP never thought it was relevant to find out the real

identity of the leaders of the revolutionary and rebel groups there, sir?

Is that what youre telling us?

26


MR. CATAPANG. Your Honor, for that particular instance, Mr.

Iqbal, we treated that name as the true name. We havent any

information that this is just a nom de guerre.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, for the record, I know that

there are certain rights to privacy, nauunawaan po namin iyon, Dr.

Ferrer, Secretary Deles. Alam din po naming may security concerns

pero may batas po. Ang anumang kasunduang pirmahan niyo,

anumang confidence building ang pirmahan niyo, hindi ho kayang

baguhin kung anong nakalagay sa batas.

Halimbawa po, Ginoong Iqbal, mayroon po ba kayong bank

account?

MR. IQBAL. Sa Mohagher Iqbal, yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Pinagbabawal po ng Anti-Money Laundering

Law na gumamit ng ibang pangalan. Ang puwede po lamang gamitin

ayon sa Anti-Money Laundering Law ay iyong totoo na pangalan, know

your client rule nga po. So even in bank accounts, you are using

Mohagher Iqbal, sir?

MR. IQBAL. I cannot discuss that, Your Honor, because I am

not a lawyer. I do not want to self-incriminate myself.

SEN. ESCUDERO. No. All Im saying, sir, you have a bank

account but its in the name of Iqbal.

27


MR. IQBAL. Yeah.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Pangalawa, gaano po kami kasigurado,

halimbawa, alam ko po kasi ginagamit niyo iyong nom de guerre dahil

nagtatago maliban sa seguridad, dahil may mga kasong naka-file laban

sa kanya.

May I ask Secretary Deles without asking the name yet and

insisting on you giving the name, to your knowledge, are there cases

filed against the real identity of Mr. Iqbal thats why he is using a nom

de guerre?

MS. DELES. To my knowledge, no, sir.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Dr. Ferrer, maam?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. There is no case filed against Mr.

Iqbal or any of the names that he uses whether as a nom de plume or

as nom de guerre.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Iyong totoong pangalan po niya, may kaso

po ba laban sa kanya sa totoong pangalan niya?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Wala po kaming alam na kaso na

naka-file na ginagamit ang kanyang tunay na pangalan.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Posibleng mayroon, hindi lang po niyo

alam.

28


MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Wala po kaming alam na may kaso.

Hindi po posible, ang alam po namin, wala.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Ang alam niyo poy wala. So wala. Dapat

alam niyo po lahat, hindi ba, dahil wala. Wala po.

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Iyon po ang sinabi ko, wala po akong

alam na kaso na nakasampa sa pangalanin any of the names of Mr.

Iqbal whether his aliases or his real name.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Or his real name?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, sir.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Ginoong Iqbal, nagbabayad po ba kayo ng

buwis or mula noong pumirma po kayo ng kasunduan, nagbabayad po

ba kayo ng buwis o hindi po?

MR. IQBAL. That follows po.

SEN. ESCUDERO. I understand if you say, no.

MR. IQBAL. That follows po sa pangalan na iyan.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Nire-require din po kasi ng batas natin na

kailangan totoong pangalan din ang ibigay sa pagbabayad ng buwis.

Immigration Act, iyon lang po tila ang nasunod, na iyong passport

ninyo ay dinadala po noon iyong totoo niyong pangalan.

MR. IQBAL. Kasi alam po ninyo, gaya ng sinabi ko kanina,

iyong personality ko po, dalawa kasi iyan, as a revolutionary leader

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natin dito sa Mindanao. I do not want to say this but I have to be very

frank that we are still in a state of conflict, nandiyan pa rin ang

conflict. Kaya nga ang gobyerno at saka MILF, pumirma ng ceasefire

agreement para matigil po iyong putukan and then nag-usap tayo.

Iyang pag-uusap natin, marami tayong napirmahan na document. Ito

po ang napirmahan, napakakapal, from 1997. So dahil doon, marami

tayong napirmahan, iyong FAB at saka CAB. And then iyon nga, sabi

ko kanina, political documents. Hindi ho kaya ng gobyerno i-

implement iyong political documents. We need a legal document.

Kaya nga ho, ginawa po natin iyong Bangsamoro Basic Law, legal

document at nasa kamay niyo po iyan, iyong legal document na iyon.

Pag maipasa na iyan po and then at the same time mayroon tayong

normalization process, pag nakaya po natin, nagawa po natin ang

lahat ng proseso na iyan, magno-normal po. At saka everything na

tungkol sa amin ay malalaman ng gobyerno ng Pilipinas. Even the

Moro Islamic Liberation Front, if everything is implemented will become

a social movement. Thats why we are organizing a political party

because we will engage in election. Ang hawak ng gobyerno iyong

mananalo sa election kasi from arms to democratic struggle na po

iyan.

30


SEN. ESCUDERO. I agree po.

MR. IQBAL. So ang pakiusap po namin, dapat tingnan po natin

iyong proseso na ganyan kasi pag ang trato po sa issue na ito ay

purely legal po, hindi niyo kami maintindihan kasi iba iyong personality

namin.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Hindi lang po purely legal. Nauunawaan po

namin. Sa katunayan, iyong tanong ni Senator Marcos kanina, sabi

niya walang epekto ito sa legalidad ng mga dokumentong pinirmahan

pero sa kumpiyansa, ika nga, na binubuo sa pagitan ng pamahalaan at

ng MILF. Ang tanong ko po, kanino po kayo natatakot at kanino po

kayo takot kung bakit ayaw niyong ilahad ang inyong totoong

pangalan, sa militar po ba kayo natatakot?

MR. IQBAL. Its not a matter of fear because when we joined

the Moro National Liberation Front and then eventually the Moro

Islamic Liberation Front, we know that death is part of it. And we are

willing to undertake that if it is necessary.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But you said, security reasons. Kanino po

kayo natatakot na may security threat

MR. IQBAL. No, not just the security, Your Honor, of my

person, not just of the MILF but its a complex issue that would be

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pa ho normal ang situation.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, hindi normal in relation to who, to

government?

MR. IQBAL. Hindi pa natatapos ang problema. Ang confict

natin nandidito pa. Habang hindi na-resolve ang problema, hindi

naipasa ang BBL, halimbawaIm not threatening because I do not

want to picture what I am saying here as something threatening. No.

The MILF has never been known to threaten people, to threaten the

government because the government is an institution. Pero pag

naayos natin iyong problema po at, halimbawa, naipasa ang

magandang BBL at naging normal na ito, normal na ang buhay namin.

Hintayin po natin iyan. Then everything will be laid bare.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Last two points, Mr. Chairman.

So Ginoong Iqbal, sabi niyo, alam naman ng gobyerno, alam

naman nila lahat. So kung hihilingin namin sa gobyerno iyan, isa-

subpoena namin sa gobyerno iyan at sinabi ng gobyerno,

makakaapekto po ba iyan sa usaping pangkapayapaang nangyayari

ngayon?

MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, I cannot make comment on that.

32


SEN. ESCUDERO. So ano pong ibig sabihin noon? Posibleng

makaapekto dahil bastat hindi manggaling sa inyo, puwede naming

kunin mula sa DFA?

MR. IQBAL. Kasi, alam ho ninyo, Your Honor, isang salita,

halimbawa, napakarami po ang karugtong po niyan. So I do not want

to self-incriminate myself.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Example, Ginoong Iqbal, dito po kasi ang

pinanggagalingan namin. Kung pumirma po si Secretary Deles na

Snow White at pumirma po si Dr. Ferrer na Cinderella dahil takot din

po sila pag hindi natuloy itong usaping ito, baka iyong pamilya nila

habulin ninyo, hindi ho ba iyong epekto sa parte ng inyong mga

kasamahan, kukuwestiyunin ho kayo, Bat hindi nila ginagamit iyong

totoo nilang pangalan? Doon po kami nanggagaling. Nais din po

namin ipaunawa sa inyo iyong pinanggalingan namin. Nauunawaan ko

na rebolusyonaryo ang pinanggagalingan po ninyong organisasyon,

subalit sa puntong ito na umaangat na, above water na, ika nga,

nagiging legal na po lahat, hindi naman po siguro ninyo dapat ikagulat

o ipintas kanino man, kabilang na kami, kung hilingin namin na

malaman at alamin iyong totoong katauhan ng kaharap at kausap po

namin. Hindi sa darating pang panahon, hindi pag tumakbo na kayo

sa election, hindi dahil iyon ang nasa passport ninyo. Pero ngayon,

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CMNERY IV-1 April 13, 2015 10:51 a.m. 9 sabi niyo po, napanood ko kayo at napakinggan, maliit na bagay lang

ito, totoo po, maliit na bagay lang ito, mas malaking bagay ang peace

process, mas importante ang BBL. Kung totoo po iyon, bat hindi niyo

po mapagbigyan iyong maliit na bagay? Bat po napapalaki ito at bat

hanggang ngayon, gobyerno man o kayo o AFP man o sinumang

ahensya ng gobyerno, parang ayaw ibigay itong napakaliit na bagay

kung talagang maliit na bagay lamang po ito?

MR. IQBAL. Well, at first glance, it says more thing. But if you

look at it deeply, its something that is very, very complicated and a

complex issue. Thats why, hindi ho basta-basta na papayag kami na

ilalahad namin everything. Kaya nga, sinabi ko nga rin kanina, hindi

pa tayo tapos, hindi pa tapos ang conflict dito sa Pilipinas. Pag

natapos na iyong problema rito sa Mindanao, everything will be laid

bare. I promise that and we promise that.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, in the next hearing, may I

ask that we invite the DFA for them to shed light on this and bring the

necessary documents on the matter?

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN MARCOS). Certainly. The committee

secretary is so instructed.

To get back to the point that Senator Escudero was trying to

make. Kayo mismo ang nagsabi na sa unang tingin, ito ay maliit

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mahalaga itong usapan na ito, naging importante at itoy napapag-

usapan.

So again, in the interest of the peace process/cmn

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). of the peace process,

such a detail would be a big help in inspiring confidence I think not

only with the legislators, not only with the government but also the

general public. Dahil ang pakiramdam ng taongbayan ay sinasabi,

Bakit hindi na lang magsabi ng totoo, ano ba naman iyon? Eh

papaano naman tayo, kawawa naman masyado ang Republika ng

Pilipinas, iyong kausap natin sa negotiation ay hindi man magsabi kung

ano iyong tunay niyang pangalan. So again, Chairman, it is a small

thing and it is a complex thing but it is important for the confidence of

all involved in this peace process that we know the true identity of the

person that we are dealing with.

SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Mr. Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So perhaps we could--

MR. IQBAL. With due respect, Your Honor, again I would

repeat I do not want to sound philosophical but I have to be very

frank. The government of the Philippines and MILF are engaged in a

peace process. As a peace process, mayroon iyang mga steps po na

hindi mo pwedeng--halimbawa, Step 5 hindi mo pwedeng ilagay iyan

sa Step 2. Kailangan sundin mo iyong proseso po. In a peace process

36

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darating ang panahon we can do that.


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Guingona.

SEN. SOTTO. Just a statement, Mr. Chairman, so that I yield

the floor to Senator Guingona afterwards.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Yes, I yield.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Sotto.

SEN. SOTTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I dont know about the others or the other members of the

Senate. But the BBL is a very important piece of legislation. I prefer

discussing it with persons that I know. So therefore, I will just talk to

you, Mr. Chairman, during the plenary.

Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Senator Sotto.

Yes, Professor Ferrer.

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Your Honor, we would like to

manifest that last Friday, we provided your Committee as well as the

Committee of Senator Guingona and Senator Defensor-Santiago a copy

of the credentials of the MILF that was submitted to us when we

restarted negotiations in February 2011. And I have the facsimile of

37

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES RJOrtiz V-1 April 13, 2015 11:01 a.m. 3 this document here coming from the chair of the MILF Al Haj

Murad saying that, By virtue of the powers and authority vested in me

as chair of the Central Committee-MILF, the MILF Peace Panel is

hereby authorized to negotiate with the government of the Philippines

for the GPH-MILF peace talks namely-- enumerating the name of the

members of the peace panel(1) Mohagher Iqbal, chairman; Datu

Michael Mastura, member; Maulana Bobby Alonto, member; Abdullah

Camlian, member; Abhoud Syed Lingga, member; Antonio Kinoc,

alternate member. MILF peace panel secretariat, Jun Mantawil, head;

Mike Pasigan, members; Muhajirin Ali, member. Accept my usual high

esteem and best regards. Signed, Al Haj Murad Ebrahim.

This is the document that authorizes the team of Mr. Iqbal to

negotiate the agreements. There has never been any question as to

who the Mr. Iqbal sitting in the talks all this time and who the Mr. Iqbal

was or is that signed the documents in the comprehensive agreement

on the Bangsamoro. Unless some other entity claims otherwise that

he is the Mr. Iqbal who signed the document, then there is no problem

with the existing documents.

May I also say, Your Honor, that the use of aliases certainly all

the laws that were cited not only in todays hearing but also in the

previous hearing in Congress applies to all individuals especially

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES RJOrtiz V-1 April 13, 2015 11:01 a.m. 4 elected officials. I have here a facsimile of the currency that was

produced by the Central Bank during the time of the former President

Joseph Estrada. It is signed by the President. It says here, Joseph

Ejercito Estrada, Pangulo ng Pilipinas. I dont think that there is any

question as to the legality of this legal tender, Your Honor, even

though it was signed with an alias. So for the records, sir


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Professor, his

designation by the MILF has not been called into question anywhere,

certainly not here. So thank you for that.

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. But the identity, Your Honor, does

not only have to do with the name. The identity has to do with the

biometrics, the fingerprints, the face. I dont think that there is any

mask that disguises his real face. He can be called by different names

but the fact that he is the one and the same person who signed this

document.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, that is perhaps

acceptable for those who are familiar with him but there are millions

more who are not. That is why this issue of his true name becomes

important. If you have doubt with him for three, four years, you know

who he is, you have seen him everyday for a very long time, fine. But

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that concern that we were not sure who we are dealing with. Yes, he

is the designated negotiator; yes, he is the designated chairman of the

Bangsamoro Transition Commission but we do not even know his

name. That seems to me a very unusual and peculiar situation.

Senator Guingona.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

My first question is to Mr. Iqbal.

Mr. Iqbal, how long have you been a member and a negotiator of

the MILF?

MR. IQBAL. The MILF has four negotiators. The chief

negotiator--

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). How long, how long,

how long?

MR. IQBAL. Im just trying to explain it. From 1997 up to the

middle of 2000, I was a member of the MILF negotiating panel. Then in

2000, there was an all-out war against the MILF. And then it resumed

in Kuala Lumpur. It was already the diplomatic state of the negotiation

under the facilitation of Malaysia. So I was not part of that peace

panel of the MILF from 2001 up to the middle of 2003. And then on

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panel of the MILF was headed by Vice Chairman Al Haj Murad Ebrahim.

So when Salamat died on July 13, Murad Ebrahim took over as

chairman of the MILF peace panel. So there was a replacement of the

MILF peace panel, and that was me. From July 29 up to today, I am

still the chief negotiator of the Moro Islamic Liberation Front.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So all in all, on a more

or less basis, no need to be very, very pinpoint accurate, how many

years?

MR. IQBAL. I think 15 years.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Fifteen?

MR. IQBAL. Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). How long has the MILF

been negotiating with the government?

MR. IQBAL. Formallyinformally, since the time of his late

father there was already an informal contact. But formally, it was on

January 7, 1997 up to today.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). More or less, how many

years?

MR. IQBAL. More or less, 42 years.

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Forty-two years. So

formally or informally all those 42 years, what was the status of the

MILF, was it a legal entity or was it a revolutionary force?

MR. IQBAL. Well, very clearly, it is a revolutionary

organization.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Okay, thank you.

MR. IQBAL. Because the MILF does not register its name, it

has no bank accounts, etcetera, etcetera. So its a revolutionary

organization.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Agreed, agreed.

Professor Ferrer, is it not true that a revolutionary force by its

very nature does not operate under the laws of the state against which

it is at odds?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. That is the nature of an anti-state

armed group, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Ill take that as a yes?


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Okay. So if a

revolutionary force is outside the jurisdiction of a state, it also follows

then that the laws of that state cannot be applied or would be

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES RJOrtiz V-1 April 13, 2015 11:01 a.m. 8 impossible to apply on the members of that revolutionary force, am I

correct, Professor Ferrer?

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor. Unless they are

arrested on the basis of some other crime, Your Honor, that is

prohibited by our Constitution.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Fine, fine. But on a

theoretical basis, as a general rule, concepts like the use of aliases,

concepts like rebellion can only be put against them, charged against

them once they are physically arrested/rjo

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). once they are

physically arrested. But conceptually, they are outside the ambit of

the law. Thats why they are called rebels, rebelde kanino? Rebelde

sa gobyerno. So kung rebelde sa gobyerno, hindi kinikilala iyong mga

batas. Iyon po ang nature ng revolutionary government. Are we in

agreement?


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). So, therefore, it is not

proper to look at this problemI wont even call it a problemlook at

this issue of Mr. Iqbals having an alias as a legal problem because we

cannot look at it using the eyeglasses of a legal framework because

this is not legal, this is something bigger than legal. It is political, are

we correct?


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Thank you.

And therefore, if it is political, it is, I would say faulty to use any

legal laws or legal concepts on somebody who is operating beyond the

jurisdiction, beyond the ambit of the state over which he is actually

rebelling, am I correct?


44


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. GUINGONA). Secondly, Mr. Iqbal has

stated that there are security concerns thats why he does not want to

reveal his name. He has a family, may apo pa nga yata si Mr. Iqbal.

And we must infuse culture here. Kailangang kilalanin ang kultura ng

ating mga kapatid down south. Kung magsala ka sa isang tao, lalo na

kung iyong honor ng tao, kung magsala ka, kung babalikan ka, at hindi

ka babalikan sa pamamagitan ng pag-file ng kaso sa regional trial

court, hindi ganoon iyon. Babalikan ka, babawian ka at kung hindi ka

mahanap, iyong pamilya mo ang hahanapin at iyong pamilya mo ang

babalikan. At kung hindi mahanap iyong pamilya mo mismo, iyong

clan mo, iyong relatives mo ang hahanapin, iyong clan mo ang

babalikan.

Iyon po ang ibig sabihin ng security issues. Kaya nga hindi rin

pwede, lets say, the concepts of witness protection program ng DOJ

diyan down south kasi kailangang ipasok mo iyong buong angkan niya.

The whole clan must be under the witness protection program. Thats

already impossible.

So we must understand the culture. The culture is different,

thats why the security issue is very, very complex.

My third point, we have been dealing with Mr. Iqbal since 2001

as he says. So many years and he has used that name. The MILF

45

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES GESapinoso VI-1 April 13, 2015 11:11 a.m. 3 states that he is their representative and they have never denied it,

they have never repudiated it. In fact, they have even enforced it in

Malaysia and in other countries all over the world. Therefore, Mr.

Chairman, I do not see any problem. I do not see any problem with

Mr. Iqbals using the present alias as long as we continue the peace

process, the peace process until its final end. And Mr. Iqbal has said,

once the final end is achieved, they cease to be a revolutionary force

and they now form part of the state and therefore they voluntarily,

because of that peace pact, will submit to the laws of the Republic.

And at that point, we heard Mr. Iqbal, he did promise to reveal his

name.

So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to disagree that this is an

important issue. I would like to say that this is an issue, yes, but this

is an issue which should not hamper the proceedings of the peace

process until its final end. After all, what is the ending? The ending is

the MILF will join the government, the MILF will be part of the state,

the MILF will follow the laws of the state. Iyon ang gusto nating lahat.

And they have promised, Mr. Iqbal has promised, at that time, he will

reveal his real name.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

46


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). To recapitulate, Senator

Guingona, again, at the very outset, we recognize that the legal issues

at this point in the process are still secondary. However, the issues as

to the gestures of good faith, the confidence that everybody involved

in the process can have, in the personalities that they are dealing with,

certainly is not helped by the fact that we cannot even gain the true

identity of the chief negotiator of the MILF. And I think that all the

legal points that you have made are certainly taken but the point is not

that there is a legal impediment to the peace process because of the

use of an alias but there is impediment in terms of the confidence that

we feel when we are negotiating with someone who we do not even

know the true identity of.

For the record, I have examined this question a little bit before

coming to this hearing: None of the rebel groups who have signed

peace agreements with any of the governments have used aliases.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And so that is a very

peculiar and singular situation in the Philippines.

Yes, Senator Escudero.

MS. DELES. Your Honor, just to correct. There was one name

in one of the agreements signed between government and the NDF

47

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES GESapinoso VI-1 April 13, 2015 11:11 a.m. 5 under President Ramos. If I have it correctly, that used a pseudonym,

Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, no, no. I said in other

countries.

MS. DELES. In other countries.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah.

MS. DELES. Your Honor, we have. In Nepal, for example, the

Comprehensive Peace Accord was signed under an alias. Also in

Guatemala and in Columbia now ongoing, Your Honor. It is not a

unique practice, Your Honor.

When the peace negotiations start, when the conflict is still on a

very high level, then it is the persona of the combatant that emerges,

Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Madam Secretary, we are

aware of those situations. We are way past that already. We are

institutionalizing a sub-government and we are way past the peace

agreement. In fact, the basis of this draft BBL is the peace agreement.

Surely, those examples that you gave, we are not in the same stages

as those.

But anyway, never mind

48


MS. DELES. No, Your Honor, these are final peace agreements

that were also signed in Nepal, in Guatemala

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely.

MS. DELES. that were signed under an alias, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Very well.

MS. DELES. And the process is not finished. In fact, the

airwaves have been very full saying that the BBL will not be signed.

This is really a very strong warning, a very strong signal that there is a

segment particularly in the lawmaking instruments of government that

in fact this process may not be completed, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, I do not want to

argue this point as again, it is tangential. But the point is that we are

at a different stage in the process of peace negotiations than the

examples that you have given.

Senator Escudero has some

SEN. ESCUDERO. Before we leave the issue, just to set the

record straight.

Secretary Deles or Dr. Ferrer, iyong pangalan po bang Al Hadj

Murad Ebrahim, is this his real name or is this an alias?

Maam, please.

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF will be the best.../jun

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Mancol VII-1 April 13, 2015 11:21 a.m. 1

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF will be the best entity to

confirm or deny that.

SEN. ESCUDERO. No, no, no. You, maam, Im asking you.

You should know if this is their real name or their alias.

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. Yes, Your Honor. I know personally

the status of the name but again, for the same arguments, reasons of

security and privacy, we cannot confirm or deny.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, even if that is his real name, you will

not confirm nor deny that that is his real name? Maam, if he is using

his real name, I guess you can tell us that that is his real name

MS. CORONEL-FERRER. The MILF has said that almost 100

percent of the members of the central committee are using aliases.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Ginoong Iqbal, iyong pangalan po bang Al

Hadj Murad Ibrahim, is this an alias or his real name?

MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, would you permit me to ask first Hadji

Murad before I answer that question?

SEN. ESCUDERO. I am assuming that its an alias because if it

were his real name, hes not hiding.

Sir, forgive me, Dr. Ferrer. Ginamit na ho niya ang totoo niyang

pangalan. Ayaw nyo pang aminin kung totoo niyang pangalan iyon.

Siya na nga inaamin na niya. So, ang papalabasin po natin, ginamit

50


niya iyong totoong pangalan niya pero hindi niya aaminin at hindi nyo

aaminin dahil baka alias iyon.

MR. IQBAL. Your Honor, kasi sa amin, within the leadership of

the MILF, mayroon kaming tinatawag na sensitivity at saka mutual

respect. So, hindi ko

SEN. ESCUDERO. I understand that. Now, on the part

MR. IQBAL. But I just want to volunteer, Your Honor, if I may

give a little information. I dont know if this information has relevance

to our discussion, about the use of aliases. The government of the

Philippines has been dealing with the MNLF since your father, your late

father. And I understand that Nur is not the exact name of Nur

Misuari. Half. Kalahati lang kasi, the real name of Misuari is Nurul

Hadji Misuari. So, I dont know if there is relevance to the current

discussion about aliases.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).. I was actually going to get

to that point. But let me allow Senator Escudero to finish.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Tapusin ko lang ho iyong listahan para lang

malaman natin.

Iyong Datu Michael Mastura, is that a real name or an alias?

These are the MILF negotiators, sir.

51


MR. IQBAL. He was once a member of the Philippine Congress.

I still cannot say here with certainty that that is his real name or

assumed name.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Secretary Deles, is that the real name of a

former member of Congress whos part of the peace panel.

MS. DELES. That is the name that he has used, Your Honor, as

congress person and as a member of the panel.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So, is that his real name or an alias, maam?

You dont know?

MS. DELES. Your Honor, as explained already, where names

have been used, different names have been used, assumptions of

names have been used, for many reasons in the area, Your Honor, I

will say I do not have the document by which I could say for certainty

that this is his real name.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Maulana Bobby Alonto. May nickname pa.

Is that a real name or an alias? Mr. Iqbal will no longer answer for the

same reason, Secretary Deles, Dr. Ferrer, real name po ba ito or alias,

to your knowledge? Just for the record, maam.

MS. DELES. Your Honor, I would like to say that we will have

to give the same response because what I know and then some, you

52


know, you will ask for documents which I will not have, Your Honors, I

would

SEN. ESCUDERO. I will not ask, maam. Im just saying to the

best of your knowledge because youve been talking to these people.

MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?

SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes, ma'am. To the best of your knowledge,

maam, real name, maam?

MS. DELES. Bobby Alonto, yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Abdulla Kamlian.

MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor?

SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes.

MS. DELES. To the best of my knowledge, Your Honor, and with

all the reservations that I have put forward, Yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Abhoud Syed Lingga. I hope I pronounced it

correctly and gave justice to the name.

MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor. He is an academic, hes been

teaching in MSU. He is not a member of the central committee, Your

Honor, the same with Al Camia (?).

SEN. ESCUDERO. Antonio Kinok, real name po ba ito o

53


MS. DELES. He is a Blaan, Your Honor. So, I dont know what

their practices are in terms of maybe having been using also several

names. I am not sure, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. At some point in time, Secretary Deles, as

Chairman Marcos said, we would have to get the real names of these

people because you would be issuing appointments.

MS. DELES. Definitely, Your Honor, yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But it would serve you well to know if this is

indeed their real name at this point in time or not.

MS. DELES. Your Honor, what has been important to us is that

we know who the organization is and that they have put forward

representatives by which they have stood by, by which we have a

paper that identifies the names of the ones who are sitting before us

and with whom there has never been any question of changes of

identities and identities connected to these names. These persons

connected to these names have signed all the papers, have stood by

these papers, are submitting, have come to Congress several times

under those names and have answered questions, Your Honor. And

never at any point has any of these that have signed any agreement

with government turned their back on what they have signed nor has

the MILF at any time ever said that these persons have signed unduly

54


any of these papers. That, Your Honor, is what is important to us. I

know Mr. Iqbal as Mr. Iqbal, Your Honor. He is the one who has come

forward. This is the public persona that is well known. He has not

changed that. He has spoken always here under very close scrutiny

and examination, Your Honor. And as far as that goes, that is what we

stand by, Your Honor. This is what the peace process stands for. And

as I said again, this is not unique in this country. This has been the

practice in many peace negotiations in different parts of the world.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, paulit-ulit nyo pong sinasabi iyan.

Nauunawaan po namin iyan. Sa totoo lang, hindi na ho kailangang

paulit-ulit pang sabihin. Iyon na ho ang sinabi ni Senator Marcos

simula pa lang. We are not saying that the documents he signed are

questionable. We are not saying that it is legally infirmed. No, were

not. What were simply asking is, tapos na iyong giyera, matagal na

tayong may ceasefire, nag-uusap na tayo ng harapan, inaayos na

natin at isinasabatas pa nga iyong mga kasunduang pinasukan at

pinirmahan. Hindi ito dapat maging hadlang sa peace process, tama

si Senator Guingona. Pero hindi rin iyon dapat magsilbing tinga sa

peace process. Maliit na bagay lang iyon pero parang tinga sa ngipin,

nakakairita na dapat sana isantabi na sa pamamagitan ng simpleng

kasagutan. Walang threat. Kaya naman sigurong sabihin iyan ng

55


peace panel. Walang threat na nagmumula sa PNP, AFP o pamahalaan

laban kay Ginoong Iqbal. Iyong mga may ayaw ng peace process,

maski pirmahan pa iyong BBL, ayaw pa rin nila iyan at may threat pa

rin kay Ginoong Iqbal. Mananatili po iyon at hindi kayang baguhin iyon

ng BBL. Kaya hindi porket pinirmahan iyong BBL ay doon lamang din

po sasabihin. Babalikan ko ho. Kung maliit na bagay lang talaga ito,

sana ibigay na. Kung tunay nga at kumplikado naman ito, ay di dapat

talaga pag-usapan at linawagin at hindi pakawalan. Either way,

Congress is simply airing out its concern, questions and clarifications.

Its up to the peace panel really, the MILF if they will address these

concerns, these questions and these doubts. If you dont, Congress

and the Senate will act accordingly.

MS. DELES. Yes, Your Honor. Definitely, we are taking very

seriously and we have listened very carefully to all of the discourse on

aliases. And certainly, this will be a matter for continuing discussion

within government as I believe it will be with the MILF. The thing that

we are sure of, Your Honor, is that as the peace agreement is

completed and that the arrangements that were agreed upon in the

comprehensive agreement becomes legal, certainly all of these will be

settled, Your Honor. And definitely, Your Honor, the Bangsamoro will

56


not be put into place, I think, without a public disclosure of everyone

that has been part of this process.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, Madam Secretary, I

am glad you agree with us that it cannot be put into place without

clarification on all of these issues. And that is precisely why we are

taking it up today. And that is why this is the issue that has taken up

all this time when we were meant to be here for a different purpose.

We have here with us the chairman of the MNLF central

committee, Ambassador Datu Abdul Alonto. Your Excellency,

Ambassador, I know this is your true name. You have not used an

alias, Ambassador.

MR. ALONTO. Yes, Mr. Chairman, and thank you. As

Shakespeare says, Whats in a name that which we call a rose? By

any other name would smell as sweet. But, of course. . . (nam)

57

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES MPMENDOZA VIII-1 April 13, 2015 11:31 a.m. 1

MR. ALONTO. But, of course, we are not as sweet as the

rose, Mr. Senator, neither Iqbal is sweet as a rose. But may I remind

the good Chairman and good Senator that the MILF is a revolutionary

movement. I know my good brother, younger brother, Mr. Mohagher

Iqbal. In fact, it was my privilege and I am happy that there was

what I did, it proved the truth because Iqbal was one of those that

could have joined the first batch of the Moro National Liberation Front

but I declined and I rejected him, not on the basis that he was not

qualified, not on the basis that because he doesnt know law. In fact,

he was a university student at that time in Manila. These are the kind

of people we need at that time at the organizational stage of the

movement but because I already recruited the brother and another

first cousin I said it will be too much for your family. So I rejected

him, not because I do not like him but I want to sayand I told him,

You will better serve the revolution after the struggle, finish your

studies.

He is a bachelors degree holder now and a masteral degree but

his brother and his first cousin were all martyred. And perhaps as I

have told him the first time I met him because I do not even know he

is Iqbal until I realized when he spoke that he was the same

gentleman that I have rejected in the first batch. And I told him I was

58

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES MPMENDOZA VIII-1 April 13, 2015 11:31 a.m. 2 right. Had I done it and have taken you with me, you could have died

like your brother. The MILF could have no negotiating team leader

now. But I will respect the position of Mr. Iqbal. If he wants to keep

his name, I respect him for that. But their chance, God willing and we

hope that we can resolve this issue, Mr. Senator and Mr. Chairman,

and, of course

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you, Ambassador.

MR. ALONTO. Yes. Then I suggest if Iqbal wants to maintain

his name, I think there is no legal impediment there, Mr. Senator. I

think he can just do what President Joseph Estrada did, Senator

Jinggoy Estrada did and Ramon Revilla Jr. did, as simple as that. But

meantime, I think we have to respect that and everybody is known

Iqbal is known to the Malaysian facilitators and to his counterparts.


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.

MR. ALONTO. Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, please.

MR. ALONTO. May I add more on the personal views that was

raised here by the good Senator?

59


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). On the names that Senator

Escudero brought up.

MR. ALONTO. Because I said he might think that there is

deception here. There is no deception here. I have to respect the

decision of Iqbal.

During the war, Mr. Senator, Alonto-Ibrahim checked in a hotel

in Davao City. Just because he was Alonto-Ibrahim, they thought he

was relative to Abul Khayr Alonto. Right on his room, someone

knocked and shoot him, point-blank. He is dead. Abdul Alonto who

was mistaken for Abul because it is also my nickname, who happens to

be my younger first cousin was killed, shot, half to death in the

presence of his mother, his wife and his only son. And if Ibrahim keep

it, you have to respect that. But the other names, I will tell you, there

is no deception here. I have been listening and he made mention

about Maulana Bobby Alonto.

Mr. Chairman, Maulana Bobby Alonto is Robert Maulana

Marohombsar Alonto, the surname that he is using. He is my first

cousin. The father was with us. And on his maternal using the

Marohombsar name, he is the grandson of the first two Muslim, one of

the first two Muslim generals who graduated by the Philippine

Constabulary School then, now the Philippine Military Academy.

60


And Mr. Datu Michael Mastura happens to be Atty. Michael

Mastura who was a former delegate to the 1971 Constitutional

Convention; his real name is Alauya, named after Sultan Alauya

Alonto, the first senator and Sultan Ibrahim(?) who happens to be his

granduncle and he is my cousin but Michael was added by the Notre

Dame University to sound it more Westernized or Americanized or

Christianized. Now I would say Lindon(?) is a professor, he is an

academician. He was my political signatory when he was with us in

the Moro National Liberation Front.

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BBL IN SENATE | Ceasefire Mechanism in the BBL, April 13, 2015

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