BBL IN SENATE | Hearing on the BBL with other sectors and government agencies, June 2, 2015

Republic of the Philippines CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES

S E N A T E Pasay City

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON

PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES

DATE : Tuesday, June 2, 2015 TIME : 10:00 a.m. VENUE : Sen. Ambrosio B. Padilla Room 2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines

Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard Pasay City

AGENDA : Senate Bill No. 2408 - An Act Providing for the

Basic Law for the Bangsamoro and Abolishing the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, Repealing for the Purpose Republic Act No. 9054, entitled An Act to Strengthen and Expand the Organic Act for the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao and Republic Act No. 6734, entitled An Act Providing for an Organic Act for the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, and for Other Purposes (by Senators Drilon, Sotto, Legarda, Recto, Binay, Escudero, Aquino, Angara, P. Cayetano, Honasan and Guingona)

A T T E N D A N C E SENATORS PRESENT:

HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS JR. - Chairman, Committee on Local Government

HON. FRANCIS G. ESCUDERO - Member HON. RALPH G. RECTO - Ex officio Member

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Committee on Local Government Joint with the Committees on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation; and Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes Tuesday, June 2, 2015 Page 2

GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS: Hon. Jose Y. Lorena - Undersecretary, Office of the Presidential Adviser on the Peace Process (OPAPP) Hon. Senen Bacani - Member, Government Peace Negotiating Panel for Talks with the MILF Hon. Kim Jacinto-Henares - Commissioner, Bureau of Internal Revenue (BIR) Hon. Joji Aragon - Assistant Secretary, Department of Labor and Employment (DOLE) Hon. Ma. Gloria Tango - Assistant Secretary, DOLE Mr. Ryan Lita - Department of Budget and Management (DBM) Mr. Leocadio Trovela - Director, Department of the Interior and Local Government (DILG) Atty. Luis Catibayan - Director, Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) Hon. Nemesio Gako - Undersecretary, Department of Health (DOH) Mr. Francisco Dakila - Managing Director, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas (BSP) Atty. Teofilo Ragadio - BSP Atty. Arifa Ala - BSP Hon. Ariel Ronquillo - Assistant Commissioner, Civil Service Commission (CSC) Ms. Maria Teresita Semana - Director III, Commission on Higher Education (CHED) Ms. Margarita Songco - National Economic Development Authority (NEDA) Atty. Adzlan Emran - Mindanao Development Authority

Mr. Ver Angelo Sumabat - Bureau of Customs (BoC) Mr. Macabangkit Lanto - Former Ambassador Mr. Amroussi Tillah Rasul - Managing Director, SAFAYA, Inc. Ms. Mary Kathleen Bueza - Womens Peace Table Ms. Emmeline Verzosa - Executive Director, Philippine Commission on Women

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Mr. Drieza Lininding - Secretary General, Bangsamoro National Movement for Peace and Development

Mr. Lominog Lao - Founding Chairman, SAKSI, Inc. Mr. Edgar Bullecer - Director, Promotion of Investments and Sustainability Organization Ms. Samirah Tomawis SENATORS STAFF: Atty. Luzviminda D. Lavarias - O/S Marcos Atty. Jose R. Cadiz Jr. - - do - Ms. Shiela Mae P. Enriquez - - do Mr. Julius Palamos - - do Ms. Arifah M. Jamil - - do Ms. Margie Mandunas - O/S Angara Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez - O/S Binay Mr. Ricardo Calimag - - do Mr. Ginno Jaralve - O/S Ejercito Ms. Fiona Conde - - do Ms. Charlotte Franco - O/S Escudero Mr. G. H. Ambat - O/S Guingona Mr. Claro Sampaga - O/S Osmea Ms. Marni F. Ortega - O/S Recto SENATE SECRETARIAT:

Ms. Assumption Ingrid B. Reyes- Committee Secretary, Committee on Local Government Mr. Elpidio H. Calica, MNSA - Committee Secretary, Committee

on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation

Ms. Anna Leah C. Catimbang - Committee Stenographer Ms. Jeanne M. Baisa - - do Ms. Cleofe P. Caturla - - do Ms. Nida A. Mancol - - do Ms. Jennifer L. Flores - - do Ms. Christine M. Nery - do

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Ms. Cindell B. Gealan - Committee Stenographer Ms. Jo B. Cadaing - - do - Ms. Avigail G. Andaya - Legislative Staff Ms. Ana Marie F. Deplomo - - do Mr. Felipe A. Dahino - - do Ms. Mylene R. Palino - - do Ms. Abigael Olson - Legislative Page Mr. Menardo Bago - - do Mr. Ronnie Cabaero - - do Mr. Benjamin Oria - OSAA/SES Mr. Rolindo Lopez - - do - Mr. Carlito Bancifra - - do Mr. Elvis Joseph Diaz - Audio Operator

(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Aliccatimbang I-1 June 2, 2015 10:39 a.m. 1

AT 10:39 A.M., HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS JR., CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT, CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Good morning, ladies and

gentlemen. The hearing of the Committee on Local Government joint

with the Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation and the

Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes of

June 2, 2015 is called to order.

The agenda that we have today, I think I need not read the

entire title, is Senate Bill No. 2408 which is essentially what has come

to be known to us as the draft Bangsamoro Basic Law.

I would like to acknowledge for the record the resource persons

who are with us today, with an apology for the late start as we all

suffer from the vagaries of traffic. In any case, let me go down the

list: from OPAPP, our constant companion at these hearings, Usec

Jose Lorena and also the chair from the Government Peace Panel, Usec

Bacani, who has also been our constant companion in all of these

hearings; from the Womens Peace Table, the representatives are

program associate of Gender, Peace and Security Program of the

Women and Gender Institute, Ms. Mary Kathleen Sarte Bueza and Ms.

Rina Angelica Fulo who is the project assistant of the same

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Aliccatimbang I-1 June 2, 2015 10:39 a.m. 2 organization; and from the Philippine Commission on Women, the

executive director is Ms. Emmeline Verzosa; from the health sector,

the DOH is represented by the Usec of Health, Dr. Nemesio Gako

Doctor, good morning; from the Regional Health Office 10, Department

of Health, they are represented by Atty. Jamaloden Basar and Ms.

Hazel Martinez; from the youth sector, the secretary general of the

Bangsamoro National Movement for Peace and Development, Mr.

Drieza Lininding; the founding chairman of SAKSI, Incorporated,

Engineer Lominog Lao; from the business sector, the co-convenor of

the Promotion of Investments and Sustainability Organization, Mr.

Edgar Bullecer; from other government offices, from the DepEd, Usec

Alberto Muyot is here to represent the secretary; the Department of

Finance is represented by the BIR, no less than Chairman Kim

Henares; from the DTI, the Industry Development Group, the

representative that we have is Mr. Luis Catibayan; and from the DOLE,

their representative is Asec Joji Aragon and Assistant Secretary Ma.

Gloria Tango; from the DBM, the representative who has been sent

here is Atty. Ryan Lita; and from the DILG, the OIC Director of

Barangay Operations Office, Mr. Leocadio Trovela; from the Bangko

Sentral ng Pilipinas, represented by the managing director of the

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Aliccatimbang I-1 June 2, 2015 10:39 a.m. 3 Monetary Policy Subsector, Dr. Francisco Dakila Jr., the acting deputy

general counsel, Atty. Teofilo Ragadio and director of Integrated

Supervision Department II, Atty. Arifa Ala; from the Bureau of

Customs, Atty. Angelo Sumabat; from the Civil Service Commission,

the assistant commissioner, Ariel Ronquillo; from CHED, the

chairperson Patricia Licuanan is represented by Dr. Ma. Teresita

Semana, the director of Higher Education Development Center; from

NEDA, the deputy director general, Ms. Margarita Songco; and from

Mindanao Development Authority, Atty. Adzlan Emran and the director

of Investment and Public Affairs, Mr. Romeo Montenegro; from the

NTRC or National Tax Research Center, Ms. Trinidad Rodriguez; and

also we have former DOJ undersecretary and former ambassador, Atty.

Mac Lanto; and finally, the managing director of the SAFAYA, Inc.,

Amroussi Tillah Rasul.

Since we have a full agenda to go through, essentially what I

have done in all of these hearings where there are many resource

persons, I would like to just go through those sectors that have

submitted position papers on the subject that we have before us. And

essentially, what Ill try to do is allow everyone who has provided a

position paper to explainperhaps not read the position paper as it is

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Aliccatimbang I-1 June 2, 2015 10:39 a.m. 4 already on the recordbut to explain the highlights and the salient

points of that position and maybe one or two questions but not an

extended discussion before we move on to the next position paper.

But, of course, should there be any interventions that any one that is

here would want to make, please just indicate that to the Chair and I

will, of course, accommodate any other questions to the Committee.

To begin, we can ask the representative of the DILG, DILG

Director Leocadio Trovela, to go through the DILG position paper of

which the Committee is in receipt.

Mr. Trovela, if you would like to proceed, please?

MR. TROVELA. Good morning, Your Honor.

The position paper that I have right now is the one submitted

actually to the Ad hoc Committee on Bangsamoro Basic Law addressed

to Honorable Rufus Rodriguez dated October 21, 2014. Basically, it

contained the joint position paper prepared by DILG with National

Security Council, the Armed Forces of the Philippines and the Philippine

National Police: emphasizing that the DILG, DND, the National Security

Council, AFP, NAPOLCOM and PNP all support the passage of the BBL

submitted by the Bangsamoro Transition Commission to Congress last

September, 2014; highlighting that the BBL will pave the way for

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Aliccatimbang I-1 June 2, 2015 10:39 a.m. 5 peace and development in the country as well as strengthen the

Bangsamoro governments capability for the effective delivery of basic

services through the establishment of a highly efficient, competent,

professional and dedicated police force in the region as contained in

the joint position paper; emphasizing also that the defense and

external security remains a reserve power of the national

government/alicc

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Jmbaisa II-1 June 2, 2015 10:49 a.m. 1

MR. TROVELA. ...national government. And then consistent

with the power sharing, public order and safety within the Bangsamoro

is a concurrent power of both the national and the Bangsamoro

governments. What this basically means is that the Bangsamoro

government would have the initial or primary responsibility over

policing matters within the Bangsamoro, an arrangement that is similar

to other local government units.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, that is critical to the

entire discussion, especially of the police, that the question of the

Bangsamoro police has become not a contentious one but a much

discussed one. And what you have said is that there have been

statements made that it will be akin or similar or the same as to what

the relationship is between regular local governments and the PNP.

But in my view, because I have looked at it and I have a little

experience on the matter, it does not seem to be exactly the same.

So that last statement that you made, could you read it again

and then explain to us exactly how that is going to be operationalized?

MR. TROVELA. The statement, sir, is that the Bangsamoro

government would have the initial or primary responsibility over

policing matters.

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THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). What does that mean

exactly?

MR. TROVELA. An arrangement that is similar to other local

government units, meaning, the Bangsamoro Police created under BBL

shall be organized, maintained, supervised and utilized for law

enforcement and the maintenance of peace and order in the

Bangsamoro. Faithful to the constitutional mandate of having only one

police force, the BBL expressly provides that the Bangsamoro Police

shall be part of the PNP. In this connection, the intergovernmental

relationsas we are proposingmechanism was provided for to ensure

that cooperation and coordination between the national and

Bangsamoro governments will be achieved.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). What is the mechanism to

ensure that? Because, essentially, in the local government context,

although there is a very close coordination, it is essentially informal

and operational control remains with the PNP central office. We, as

governors, mayors, LGU executives, of course, have to work very

closely with our police but, at the end of the day, the command

structure remains supreme. So is there a difference between what is

being proposed in the draft BBL or will it be exactly the same?

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MR. TROVELA. As earlier emphasized, the Bangsamoro Police

will be part of the PNP. The Bangsamoro Police shall be under the

command and direction of the PNP chief. And then, the Bangsamoro

Police Board shall be part of the Napolcom and then will perform the

functions of the Napolcom in the Bangsamoro. In the exercise of the

functions of the police board, it has the power to investigate

complaints against the police, etcetera, etcetera. And then on the

matter of operational control and supervision, the chief minister shall

act as the deputy of the Napolcom. As part of the position paper, the

deputy of the Napolcom in the Bangsamoro shall exercise operational

control and supervision of the Bangsamoro Police.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Wait. The chief minister

will exercise operational supervision and control?

MR. TROVELA. Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That does not exist in any

other LGU.

MR. TROVELA. Right now, under the present setup, it is the

local chief executive exercising the operational control.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The provincial director, the

chief of police in any city does not, in fact, take orders from the

governor or the mayor. They take orders from the Philippine National

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Police. The governors and the mayors, of course, as I said, work in

close coordination. In fact, most local governments assist the PNP

dahil sa kakulangan nga ng resources, etcetera. Of course, because

local government officials want the police operational, kapag kulang na

iyong resources na binibigay ng central office, tumutulong kami,

tumutulong ang local government. Pero hindi namin pwedeng orderan

ang police kung hindi iyon ang order ng Crame. Now, that is why this

came upI think our OPAPP and the GPH panel, panay ang tanong ko

rito, if the chief minister issues an order to a member of the

Bangsamoro Police, can an order from the chief, PNP in Crame override

that order?

MR. TROVELA. Ang nandito po sa aming position is that the

chief minister, like what you said, Your Honor, performs similar

functions as the local chief executives under R.A. 6975, granting

operational control and supervision over police units within their

respective jurisdiction. Operational control and supervision referring

toito po iyong definition ng operational control and supervision, of

the local chief executives right now with

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ng LGU, ng pangkaraniwan

na LGU.

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MR. TROVELA. LGU po. The power to direct, superintend and

oversee the day-to-day functions of police investigation

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But you see, direct, but

hindi pwede. Kasi ang direct, ibig sabihin, sasabihin mo doon sa PD

mo o sasabihin mo doon sa hepe mo, May problema doon, puntahan

ninyo. Tingnan ninyo kung ano ang nangyayari. Ano ang kailangan

ninyong tulong, tutulungan kayo namin. May report ako galing sa

isang barangay captain, galing sa isang mayor, may nangyayari doon,

may nagkakapatayan doon, or whatever, that is direct. Pero hindi mo

pwedeng orderan ang pulis.

Now, essentially, that is where the problem arises in the

conception of the Bangsamoro. We have come up against this before.

So again, can, let us saywell, I guess, they are essentially the RD

but can chief, PNP kapag inorderan ng isang pulis the RDsiguro RD

kasi Bangsamoro is a regionkapag sinabi ng chief minister, You go

and do this. Investigate this o habulin ninyo itong mgawhatever it

is, kapag sinabi ng chief, PNP, Hindi iyan ang gagawin natin, what

happens?

MR. TROVELA. I am sorry, Your Honor, wala po dito sa amin.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That is precisely the

problem, it is not clear. What exactly is the relationship of the

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Bangsamoro Police when it comes to chain of command? In your

conception, what is your chain of command? Where does the chief

minister come in to the chain of command? You say that it is still the

local PNP, or the Bangsamoro Police will still be under the direct

command chain of Crame starting with the chief, PNP. Am I correct?

MR. TROVELA. Yes po.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That is what you have in

your position paper.

MR. TROVELA. Sir, the chief minister acting as deputy of the

Napolcom.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). What exactly are the

functions and powers of the chief minister relative to the Bangsamoro

Police? And how does that relate to the chain of command that begins,

well, of course, with the commander-in-chief, but within the internal

chain of command of the PNP, the chief of the PNP? How does that

work?

MR. TROVELA. The specific description as to the role of the

chief minister insofar as that concerns, Your Honor, is not explicitly

stated in my position paper that I have right now.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Very well. No. Fair

enough. I mean, that is exactly what we have run up against in many

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of the hearings. That it is not clear exactly, that is why we will have to

clarify that.

But to move on. As to the qualifications, sino ang pwedeng

gawing Bangsamoro police? Ito ba ay basta iyong chief minister

magbibigay ng listahan, sasabihin, Ito lahat ang magiging pulis

namin? Or do they have to go to the PNPA? What is exactly the

procedure for a Bangsamoro person, as it has been designed, or

someone who is within the Bangsamoro territoryI mean, inhabitant

of the Bangsamoro territory to become a policeman? How will they

become a policeman?

MR. TROVELA. Similarly, membership... /jmb

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 1 MR. TROVELA. Similarly, membership of the Bangsamoro

Police, as contained in our position paper, shall be headed by the

Bangsamoro police director who will have, at least, two deputies. The

Bangsamoro police director and his deputies will be selected by the

chief minister, as recommended by Bangsamoro Police Board and must

be police officer with the rank of, at least, police chief superintendent.

However, for a period of 10 years immediately following the enactment

of the BBL, the Bangsamoro police director and the deputies may have

a rank of police senior superintendent. So, your question, sir, the

police director and his deputies will be selected by the chief minister as

recommended by the board.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. So, iyon ang

command structure. We have something akin to that. Wala naman

kasi tayong regional government sa Pilipinas. So, the closest thing

that we have is the provincial director being chosen from a short list of

three by the governor, city mayors ganoon din. So, what will be that

process in thesa command structure iyon.

But ang tanong ko, iyong pangkaraniwan na pulis, paano

magiging pulis, iyong rank and file ng PNP ng Bangsamoro Police?

MR. TROVELA. Appointments. The appointments of the

members of the Bangsamoro Police will be throughthorough

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 2 evaluation should precede the appointments of officer and

members.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Again, what was the

phrase?

MR. TROVELA. Thorough evaluations will precede

appointments of the officers and members of the Bangsamoro Police.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. What is the

thorough evaluation?

MR. TROVELA. In identical manner as that provided for under

Section 31. Consistent with R.A. 6975, Police Officer I to Senior Police

Officer IV appointed by the Bangsamoro police director and attested by

the Civil Service Commission po, Your Honor, and then personnel for

the Bangsamoro Police other than police officer shall also be appointed

by the Bangsamoro police director.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So, who will do the

thorough evaluation? Kasi ang sinasabi ninyo iyong police ina-appoint

ng chief minister essentially.

MR. TROVELA. Yes po, as recommended by the board.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Pero upon thorough

evaluation.

MR. TROVELA. By the board.

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 3 THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Sinong gagawa ng

thorough evaluation?

MR. TROVELA. The Bangsamoro Police Board po.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Bangsamoro police board

which is also going to be appointed by the chief minister. So, walang

thorough evaluation na gagawin ng central office ng PNP, doon lahat

gagawin sa Bangsamoro. So, basically, internal lahat ang pag-appoint

ng command structure. Iyong command structure ang mag-evaluate

doon sa kanilang mga aplikante na pulis, wala dito sa pag-assess doon

sa pulis na iyan doon sa Crame, lahat gagawin internally sa

Bangsamoro, as opposed to what we have as regular assessments and

validations that are being done by our regular police. They have a

template, they have a very clear testing procedure that they go

through.

Iyong pangkaraniwan na pulis, anong kaibahan ng

pangakarinawan na pulis sa isang LGU sa labas ng Bangsamoro at

iyong pulis doon sa loob ng Bangsamoro? What are the differences?

Kasi parang ang naririnig ko, basically, ia-appoint lang ng chief

minister, sasabihin thorough evaluation pero iyong thorough evaluation

is also being done by the chief minister at saka iyong command

structure na kanyang in-appoint.

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 4 MR. TROVELA. Yes po. Pero kailangan po consistent din ang

evaluation and appointments of the officers and members with Section

31 of the existing Republic Act 6975 or PNP Law.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. What are those

tests? What are the assessments that need to be made?

MR. TROVELA. Unfortunately, wala po akong listahan ng

assessment.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Oo, sige, fair enough.

Okay.

So, the critical point here is that we want a consistency across

the country about the quality of our policemen. And also, kaya naman

ginawa ang Philippine National Police at tinanggal essentially ang local

control sa police ay para hindi maging private army ang local police ng

sinumang nakaupo na elected political officials. Iyon ang pangamba

dito nga sa Bangsamoro Police dahil mukhang ia-appoint lahat ng chief

minister mula saanong tawag ninyo, regional director? Hindi RD.

Iba iyong tawag ninyo. The Bangsamoro police directorate.

MR. TROVELA. Bangsamoro police director.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Director. So, he has a

directorate but he is also appointed by the chief minister. So, what

you talked about, the thorough assessment will also be made by the

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 5 Bangsamoro police directorate. So, the whole process is internal

within the Bangsamoro.

MR. TROVELA. If I may again cite, that the evaluation should

be consistent with Section 31 of 6975.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay.

So, lets move on from that point. Sige, keep going. What else

did you want to talk about?

MR. TROVELA. The Bangsamoro Police Board shall have the

power to investigate citizens and complaints against Bangsamoro

Police. And then the appeals from decisions of the board may be filed

with the Napolcom. And then also part of the position is the laws on

policingthat the Bangsamoro Police shall be responsible for enforcing

laws enacted by Congress and the Bangsamoro Parliament on Law and

Order and Public Safety. And then the Bangsamoro Police shall adopt

a community policing mechanism in supporting the development of

peace, law, order, structures and systems of indigenous persons.

That basically, Your Honor, are the gists or the contents of the

joint position papers of the

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. While we are in

receipt of the position paper, I just wanted to clarify or point out that

the problem is not that we are particularly opposed but it is unclear in

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 6 the draft BBL exactly what the functions are. And there are concerns

that because the entire process of appointing, choosing, assessing both

the rank and file of the Bangsamoro Police and the command structure

of the police directorate in the Bangsamoro is internal. What I think

would be a more equitable process would be to follow what other

regions have, what other provinces have, and that there has to be

established kung nag-schooling, nag-training, pumasa ng exam, et

cetera. So, those I think the requirements so that we have a

consistent quality of policing not only in the rest of the country but also

in Bangsamoro that we have a consistent, shall we say, evaluation

procedure for everybody.

I think Usec Bacani has been waving his hands since kanina pa.

So, Usec Bacani, do you have something to add?

MR. BACANI. Yes, I just wanted to clarify, Your Honor, the

issue of the Bangsamoro Police.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Beforesi Senator Chiz has

been walking around, for the record, Senator Chiz Escudero has come

to joint us. Thank you, Senator Chiz.

Yes, please go ahead Usec Bacani.

MR. BACANI. If I may continue, Your Honor?

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Caturla III-1 June 2, 2015 10:59 a.m. 7 First, to clarify the Bangsamoro Police is part of an integrated

Philippine National Police. Its not an independent police force. The

qualifications to become a policeman would be the same because PNP

would be doing the hiring of any police person anywhere in the

Philippine National Police.

The issue of operational control and supervision of the chief

minister over the regional police is actually in the existing law,

Republic Act 9054 where the ARMM governor has operational control

and supervision over the ARMM police director.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, we have seen the

problems that have arisen from that system.

MR. BACANI. But the chain of command is very clear from the

chief PNP up to the last policeman.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Again, I think the ultimate

test, can an order by the chief minister to his Bangsamorocpc

23

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES Mancol IV-1 June 2, 2015 11:09 a.m. 1

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). the chief minister to his

Bangsamoro Police be countermanded by the chief, PNP.

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor. We have clarified that several

times. In case of any difference of opinion between the chief minister

and the chief, PNP, definitely, the decision of the chief, PNP is the one

to be followed, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Very good. Because

the first time I asked this question, there was also a suggestion that

there would be a negotiation in terms of conflicting orders, okay. But

now, I thank you for clarifying that.

Now, in terms of appointing the rank-and-file members and the

choosing of the rank-and-file members and the officers of the PNP,

how is the process conceived under the draft BBL?

MR. BACANI. Since its part and parcel of the Philippine

National Police, the qualifications as in the PNP Law remain to be the

same. One needs to be a college graduate to become a member of the

Philippine National Police. So, anyone who wants to become part of

the Philippine National Police has to be a college graduate and has to

be qualified to become a police person.

24


For example, in the existing ARMM today, there are probably

6,000 policemen. I would like to think that at least 5,800 of those will

probably continue to be the same. Its possible that there are 200

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Iyong 5,800 nasa ARMM

ngayon?

MR. BACANI. Nasa ARMM ngayon or part of the Philippine

National Police. Its very possible that there may be qualified members

of the Bangsamoro Islamic Armed Forces who may be qualified, who

are college graduates and who may be interested and who may be

qualified by the PNP to become policemen. So, theres that possibility

that the couple of hundred of the Bangsamoro Police will come from

qualified members of the Bangsamoro Islamic Armed Forces, Your

Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But they will undergo the

same testing procedures and evaluation procedures as any other

ordinary policeman?

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor, because theyre part of the PNP.

They have to follow all of the rules and regulations as called for in the

PNP Law, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Escudero has some

questions.

25


SEN. ESCUDERO. Just to ask, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Trovela, sir, youre with the Napolcom?

MR. TROVELA. No, sir. Im not with the Napolcom. Im with

the local government sector of the DILG.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Meaning, barangay operations, and youre

authorized to speak for the DILG on this matter about the Bangsamoro

Police, sir? Just to ask. I mean, without questioning your

qualifications because you are the one that was sent here, and youve

been answering questions about the Bangsamoro Police and what the

DILGs views are with respect to the Bangsamoro Police.

MR. TROVELA. Yes, based on the position paper that I have

coming from our legal service.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But this is not your core competency?

MR. TROVELA. Because I am not from the National Police

Commission.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Now, your comments earlier, was it based on

the draft BBL or the House version already of the BBL?

MR. TROVELA. Based on the position paper that I have, its

based on the

SEN. ESCUDERO. The draft bill or the amended version

already, sir?

26


MR. TROVELA. It is based on

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, I dontMr. Leocadio, youre

the same last name as my mothers sister, nothing against reallybut

may I ask, Mr. Chairman, hopefully if we excuse all the principals of

agencies, no blame on you, sir. But can they sendcan the DILG, for

example, send a representative and bind the agency? Its difficult to

be hearing from resource persons who cannot bind the agency and are

simply relying oniyon lang iyong problema ko, sir. Meaning, weve

been hearing the correct answers form our resource persons since we

started. But the thing is, they cannot bind the officials who will

actually implement this bill.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Mr. Trovela, kasi kung

titingnan ninyo iyong position paper ninyo, I would say 80 percent of it

is dealing with police matters.

MR. TROVELA. Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Kaya ang kailangan natin

iyong marunong tungkol sa police matters.

Now, it is no judgment on you that you are not an expert on

police matters because essentially you provided different functions.

So, perhaps we could ask the DILG toWho wrote this position paper?

27


MR. TROVELA. Your Honor, this is the joint position paper that

I have, galing po ito sa

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The cover letter of the

position paper you gave me is the cover letter that you have to

Congressman Rufus Rodriguez. It has signatories, although not

signed, Secretary Gazmin, Secretary Roxas, Director General Purisima

pa rin, and CS Greg Catapang. So, sino ang sumulat nito?

MR. TROVELA. Ito po iyongSinabi ko nga po kanina, this is

not yet theIto iyong naka-address namin doon sa Ad Hoc Committee

on the Bangsamoro Basic Law last October 21, 2014. Ito lang po kasi

iyong position paper na for the Senate, kumbaga, ang dala ko po ito

lang. Ito pong pinadala sa akin ng aming legal service. So, ang

pagkaalam ko po, the position paper na ito ay ginawa ng DILG,

National Security Council, AFP and then PNP, sang-ayon po sa

information coming from the legal service.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Pero itong cover letter mo

walang nakapirma.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, is your copy signed?

MR. TROVELA. Ill check po.

SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir. Your copy.

MR. TROVELA. Wala rin po. Unsigned po.

28


SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, may I make a manifestation?

Minamadali tayo, pinupukpok tayo ng gobyerno, tapos iyong position

paper hindi pa officially signed, and they send representatives. They

talk so seriously outside and yet, inside the committee, how can we

get accurate information? Again, sir, without taking anything away

from you. You were ordered to come here. But hopefully, can the

secretariat, Mr. Chairman, communicate with the DILG to kindly send

someone clothed with authority to bind the agency itself.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Furthermore, Mr. Trovela,

kawawa ka dahil ikaw ang pinadala rito so you have to catch all of

these for yourself.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sorry po, ha.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). This is the position paper

you made for the House. You have no position paper for the Senate.

MR. TROVELA. Ang sabi po lang sa amin ng legal service

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Considering all of these,

marami nang nangyari sa House. May version na ang House. Siguro

dapat iyong iyong position paper, well take that into account. Well

take note at the very least.

Now, I think the best way, the only way to remedy this, we will

let you go, make a call, call your offices baka maihabol pa kung

29


sinuman ang puwedeng expert tungkol sa police matters bago matapos

iyong hearing na ito. Okay. Mr. Trovela, thank you very much.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Again, my apologies, Mr. Trovela. Nothing against you.

Just one point, Mr. Chairman, Id like to make of record.

Secretary Bacani made mention of college graduates of PNP. Just for

your information, sir, we have filed a bill which seekskasi dati po, di

ba, high school graduate, puwede na kayong magpulis. Kaya lang, sa

sama ng quality ng high school graduates natinkaya nga nag-K to 12

tayoginawang college graduate.

So, two things on that, sir. One, we gave a five-year period for

former PNP members who are not college graduates to comply. I think

thats extended several times. Para kawawa naman, sayang naman,

police na sila dati, na kumuha ng degree. Perhaps, the same opening

can be given also to some members of the MILF whether written in the

law or clarified in the IRR or somewhere else.

And secondly, sir, we have filed a bill reducing that requirement

all over again na sinuman ang nakatapos sa K-12 is eligible to apply

and be a member of the police and for any other position in

government for that matter and hopefully, the private sector as well,

para ang tingin po ng taoTumatango si Usec Muyotpara ang tingin

30


po ng tao, iyong K-12 hindi dagdag na dalawang taon bago

magkatrabaho ang isang tao. Menos na dalawang taon iyon para

magkatrabaho because if he finishes that K-12 program, hindi naman

na niya kailangan talaga magkolehiyo para magkatrabaho pa. We

intend to proceed along those lines, sir.

MR. BACANI. Opo. Kung. . . (nam)

31

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 1 MR. BACANI. ...Opo. Kung anuman po iyong rules and

regulations affecting the Philippine National Police, the same rules

should apply to the Bangsamoro Police because its part and parcel of

the Philippine National Police. Regarding qualifications, of course po, if

you will relapse them per law, the same rules will have to apply, Your

Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, assuming that the

assumption, the premise that we are using is that the K-12 will

produce a higher level of training and education, therefore, allowing

them already to perform their functions as policemen, my concern is

that there should be consistency across the board that any policeman,

from wherever they came from, will have the same qualifications, will

have passed the same exams, will have undergone the same training.

Pare-pareho lahat para naman maliwanag kung ano ang kanilang

kakayahan. And that is onlyThen, the appointing procedures should

also be the same that kung may mag-a-apply na gustong mag-pulis,

kailangan mapagdaanan, pareho rin ng dinadaanan ng

pangkaraniwang pulis. Ang kinakatakutan ng iba is that bastat i-a-

appoint na lang ng chief minister kahitbasta iyong gusto niya na

kahit walang qualification, walang training, bastat siguro tao niyadi

32

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 2 ito, ito, ito, gagawing pulis. Iyon ang kinakatakutan. Iyon ang

pangamba.

MR. BACANI. We wholeheartedly agree, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Very good.

So, thank you for that.

Mr. Trovela, please stay on your phone and try and get

somebody who can help us here.

All right. Well move on now to Assistant Commissioner

Ronquillo of the Civil Service Commission, who have also given us a

position paper.

MR. RONQUILLO. Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Senator Escudero.

Your Honor, the Civil Service Commission has submitted a

position paper last January 2015. And this position paper states that

the Civil Service Commission supports the noble intention of the bill.

However, we believe that things should be done within the framework

of our Constitution. And our position actually raised three pointsthat

all have implications on the constitutionality of the proposed bill. The

first is with respect to the creation of Bangsamoro Civil Service.

33

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 3 And if I may be allowed, Your Honor, may I read the particular

provision?

This is contained in Section 2, Paragraph 8, Article V of SB No.

2408, and it states as follows: There is hereby created a Bangsamoro

Civil Service office that will develop and administer a professional civil

service corps, without prejudice to the power, authority and duty of

the national Civil Service Commission. The Bangsamoro government

shall enact a civil service law for this purpose. This law shall govern

the conduct of civil servants, the qualifications for non-elective

positions, adopt the merit and fitness system and protect the civil

service eligible in various government positions including government-

owned and controlled corporations with original charters in the

Bangsamoro. The Bangsamoro government shall have the primary

disciplinary authority over its own officials and employees.

That provision, Your Honors, is unequivocal in saying that the

Bangsamoro government, through a Bangsamoro Civil Service, shall be

the one to develop and administer a professional corps on civil service

in the Bangsamoro without prejudice to the power, authority and duty

of the national Civil Service Commission. Your Honor, the phrase,

without prejudice to the power and authority of the national Civil

34

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 4 Service Commission, to us, appears to be vague. We do not know

what does it mean. Because by saying that they are in charge of

development

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. And, in fact, its

prejudicial to the powers of the CSC.

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor. Because that means, they will

be arrogating onto themselves a power that actually belongs to the

central Civil Service Commission.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, of course, you have

hit upon one of the main points of argument in this entire draft BBL

that we cannot allow the diminishing of powers of a constitutionally

created body, which CSC is one.

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. So that is

MR. BACANI. Thats one.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That is one.

MR. BACANI. Thats one point, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You have three points to

make. Yes.

35

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 5 MR. BACANI. The other point that we want to raise is the

proposed provision saying that in each constitutional commission,

there has to be a member that must come from the Bangsamoro.

Your Honor, for us, it doesnt have any constitutional basis. Because

the qualifications of the members of each constitutional commission

are actually defined by the Constitution itself. Now, for the Civil

Service Commission, it simply states there that the appointee must be

35 years of age at the time of the appointment, must be a Filipino

citizen, and must have a proven capacity for public administration.

And to say that he has to come from Bangsamoro will be adding to

that requirement which was prescribed by the Constitution, I think,

Your Honor, thats unconstitutional.

And finally, our third point is with respect to what will happen to

the present employees of the ARMM because the law has been silent

about it. I think, Your Honor, what should govern here is the law that

protects the security of tenure of present permanent employees in any

government agency. Im referring to R.A. 6656 or the Law on

Reorganization. The establishment of the Bangsamoro should be

considered a reorganization of the ARMM. And, therefore, we cannot

36

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 6 just terminate the present employees of the ARMM without following

the provisions of the R.A. 6656.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. Actually, the question

during our out-of-town hearings, the question of what will happen to

the presentI think you have over 30,000most of them are teachers

but there are about 36,000 civil servants in ARMM right now. And

because of the language in the draft BBL which says that the ARRM

itself will be abolished and thereby abolishing all the offices under

ARMM which will then be reorganized, ang laging tanong, Anong

mangyayari doon sa mga civil servants kung iyong kanilang mga

offices ay na-abolish? Ngayon, nandiyan pa rin ba iyong mga

guarantees of tenure, seniority, pay grade, et cetera, et cetera that are

guaranteed in the Civil Service Code.

So, I think its time to turn again to either Usec Lorena or Usec

Bacani to explain to us what is the conception here of the draft BBL.

MR. BACANI. Okay, Your Honor. First, if I may comment on

the observation

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think we should also ask

the question with an eye tothere is also a provision that the

Bangsamoro government will have complete authority over hiring and

37

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 7 firing of employment of all government workers, the bureaucracy,

essentially. So, how does that jibe or how does that resolve itself with

the guarantees of tenure and seniority that the Civil Service Code

makes?

So, iyon ang mga tanong na hindi pa natin maisagot.

MR. BACANI. Sige po, Your Honor.

On the three points, constitutional issue, I think its not for the

interest of anybody that any provision of the law will be declared

unconstitutional. The intent of that provision is not in any way to

supplant any power, duty, function or authority of the Civil Service

Commission. Its, in fact, to supplement any possible rewording

necessary, Your Honor, just to make sure its constitutional. Its

probably something you may need to consider. Because I dont think

any party is interested in having any of the provisions being declared

later on as unconstitutional. Anything that we need to do in rewording

any provision to make sure its within the Constitution, Your Honor, is

probably worth considering.

Second, on the question of appointments, Your Honor, I think

those are more affirmative action statements. One is that, I think, in

the original draft is a matter of policy. Second, in the

38

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JLFLORES V-1 June 2, 2015 11:19 a.m. 8 THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Before we move beyond

that, you are adopting the Bangsamoro government? Well adopt a

policy of affirmative action?

MR. BACANI. Hindi po.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You know, the affirmative

action means favoring a sector or a group that seems to have been

that is recognized to have been somehow prejudiced against or left

behind in some way.

MR. BACANI. Hindi po iyong Bangsamoro government, iyong

national government po because what was being expressed was to

have a member of the Civil Service

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). As far as I know, Usec

Bacani, we have not adoptedthe national government has not

adopted in any LGU or any way...

MR. BACANI. Mayroon po, iyong sa ano.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). ...an affirmative action

policy

MR. BACANI. In the existing law po, and what was finally

adopted in an ad hoc committee report .../jlf

39

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CMNERY VI-1 June 2, 2015 11:29 a.m. 1

MR. BACANI. in an ad hoc committee report, nakalagay as

far as practicable. But at the same time, we have to recognize that

the appointment power of the President is absolute. He cannot be

forced to appoint anybody to any position. Its absolute, Your Honor.

There is nothing mandatory in terms of any of those statements.

Thats why

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, definitely. But if

there is a policy of affirmative action, that will, of course, influence the

appointments.

MR. BACANI. Thats basically what has been in the existing

laws for a whileit basically says as far as practicable. In the

proposed law, it says, as a matter of policy. In the ad hoc committee

report, it says, as far as practicable. And we also recognize, Your

Honor, that the appointment power of the President is absolute. He

can or cannot appointwhen he appoints somebody, kailangan po

iyonghe is not being ordered to do so.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No. I understand that.

You cannot order the President to do anythingBut the point is, the

concept of affirmative action in terms of hiring policy, this is something

that was sort of implied in that provision that said the policy on hiring

40

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CMNERY VI-1 June 2, 2015 11:29 a.m. 2 within the Bagsamoro government bureaucracy will be under the

Bangsamoro government rather than under the CSC. Thats why this

question has come up because it will favor MILF. Of course, iyong

lahat ng nakaupo MILF, syempre, kukunin mo iyong tao mo.

What happens now to the 36,000 ARMM employees whose offices

have been abolished and reorganized and iba ang nilagay?

MR. BACANI. I think, Your Honor, we have to make sure that

the Civil Service rules and regulations are recognized because thats

how it is. Whatever applies to the national civil service core will have

to apply to those Civil Service employees in the ARMM today. One

alternative, Your Honor, is to retain all qualified Civil Service

employees without diminution of pay or privileges and have the

number of years credited. Thats one alternative, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ganito na lang. What

happens, halimbawa, pagka mayroong isang line office, lets say,

agricultural office that a BBL will abolish, but the Bangsamoro

government reorganizes also an agricultural office, are there any

guarantees na iyong magiging civil servant doon sa agricultural office

na iyon that is almostbut is similar to the previous one will be the

ones who had occupied that office before?

41


Furthermore, what will happen to the offices or the entities,

agencies that will be entirely abolished? What happens to the people

that were working in that office?

Yeah, Usec Lorena.

MR. LORENA. Mr. Chairman, Id like to put on record or clarify

that the provision on Civil Service in the Bangsamoro proposed draft

was taken from Article XVI, the General Provisions of Republic Act

1954 where the regional autonomous government was authorized to

establish its own Civil Service Code. And that is for one, I just like to

make it on record that its just a carryover of the existing law.

If I may read

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But, Usec Lorena, you

have based all of your theories on the draft BBL on the fact that the

ARRM was a failed experiment. So to go back to the failed

experiment anong kasabihan?is that to expect the different result

from the same action is the definition of insanity.

MR. LORENA. Perhaps in the context of the failed experiment,

there are different versions to it. The failed experiment with respect to

the operationalization of the law or the implementation of the law but,

definitely, the law is not a failed law.

42


So I just like to make mention, Mr. Chairman

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The legal context is there.

Okay. Very well. But the question is, anong mangyayari doon sa mga

civil servant na, unang-una, na-abolish na iyong kanilang opisina,

tapos na-reorganize iyong ganun din klaseng opisina. Kasi kahit

papaano magkakaroon ng agriculture, magkakaroon ng development

officer, magkakaroon ng treasurer, all of those.

Pagka na-reorganize, sila ba ang ilalagay ulit o etsapwera na

sila? Tapos, iyong mga offices na na-abolish, anong mangyayari

ngayon doon na hindi na-reorganize, anong mangyayari doon sa mga

empleyado doon?

MR. LORENA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In fact, Im about to go into that. In the provision of the BTA

draft, there is a transition provision, which says, that the personnel

existing will be retained until only the qualified person will be

retained but those who do not meet the qualification may have to be

given certain incentive to leave because we would like to capacitate

the new Bangsamoro Transition Authority.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Its reasonable to assume

kayat nandiyan iyan dahil qualified. Hindi naman nakaupo diyan

43

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CMNERY VI-1 June 2, 2015 11:29 a.m. 5 hindi naman nilagay iyan diyan sa mga opisinang iyan kung hindi

qualified.

Again, how will that qualification be determined?

MR. LORENA. Id like to inform because I was with the

Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, I was the attorney general.

Not all the 36,000 are permanent employees and therefore meet the

qualifications. Many in the bloated bureaucracy were just hired on

temporary basis for lack of qualification. But the intent of the BBL is

really to put a stop into that hiring of contractuals, the hiring of

temporary position in order to put permanent personnel into the

bureaucracy.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Lets keep the

discussion toiyong plantilla position.

What happens to those in plantilla positions?

MR. LORENA. They will first be retained in the same because

the Civil Service provision is guaranteed under the BTA until such new

Civil Service Law is provided, the present Civil Service provisions with

respect to tenure and with respect to the rights and privileges of the

employees will be retained even during the transition.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman.

44


THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, Senator Escudero.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Usec Lorena, under the lawDOLE is here,

Civil Service is herepag in-abolish po iyong opisina, wala ng security

of tenure iyong tao. Is that correct, sir?

MR. RONQUILLO. Your Honor, we have a law, R.A. 6656,

which protects the security of tenure

SEN. ESCUDERO. Even if it is abolished?

MR. RONQUILLO. Yes, Your Honor. Because even if it is

considered abolished but new positions comparable to the former ones

are created

SEN. ESCUDERO. Then they will have to be rehired.

MR. RONQUILLO. Yes, Your Honor.

Under the guidelines of R.A. 6656, if you are holding a

permanent appointment, you have a vested right to that position.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, iyong coterminus, maliwanag ho iyon.

They serve at the pleasure and confidence, they can be changed.

Iyong contractual, maliwanag din ho iyon.

Now, iyong may security of tenure po, iyong permanent

employees and officials, will their right to security of tenure be

guaranteed under the BBL?

45


MR. LORENA. Yes, sir, categorically. Because of 6656.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Can we put that in the law?

MR. LORENA. Yes. In fact, even in the House, they would like

to ensure that that provisions will be guaranteed.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So if we put that in the law, wala hong

problema.

MR. LORENA. Yes, sir.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Hindi lang ho nalagay doon sa draft. So we

will put that in the law.

MR. LORENA. Yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Second, out of the 30 plus thousand

employees in ARMM right now, ilan po iyong temporary? You said you

worked with ARMM.

MR. LORENA. If my memory serves me right, about 23,000

were the permanent. But over and above that are already

temporary

SEN. ESCUDERO. So more than two-thirds are temporary?

MR. LORENA. Yes.

SEN. ESCUDERO. How will the BBL address that? If you

merely quoted the provision in the current ARMM Law, how will now

46

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CMNERY VI-1 June 2, 2015 11:29 a.m. 8 the BBL address that situation if you are merely citing an old provision

in the ARMM?

MR. LORENA. Well, there is really an intent to give certain

packages for those that will be displaced because of the

SEN. ESCUDERO. But thats not in the bill.

MR. LORENA. In fact, this will be part, in the discussion, in the

forum, the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao which is being

worked now on a transition is being considered.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But thats not in the bill and we can also

insert therefore provisions to make sure that what happened in ARMM

na puro contractual will not happen here dahil iyon naman ho iyong

objective, hindi po ba?

MR. LORENA. Yes. In fact, that should be the best way to

move forward, Mr. Chairman, because we have to put the provision

there.

SEN. ESCUDERO. And, lastly, I agree with the comments. I

would like to place on record my agreement to the comments of

Chairman Marcos na hindi na nga ho natin sinama sa usapan iyong

ibang grupo. Karamihan ho ng nakaupo diyan malamang tao ng MNLF,

hindi ba? I mean, its logical to assume.

47


So kung papalitan niyo naman sila ng mga taga-MI, panibagong

gulo na naman, panibagong mae-exclude na naman. So then the

rationale and logic be, for it to be inclusive/cmn

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES CBGealan VII-1 June 2, 2015 11:39 a.m. 1

SEN. ESCUDERO. for it to be inclusive once its being

implemented, since it was exclusionary during the negotiation period

and youve gone at length to explain to us na negotiation is

complicated, etcetera, etcetera. Fine. But, also, we would be inserting

provisions that will make it inclusive, not exclusive to the MILF alone.

Because the key behind this law succeeding, perhaps, is the ability of

other groups, other than MILF, to actually hold positions of power

within the BBL that they can have a sphere of influence and be part of

nation building in that part of the country. You would agree, of course.

MR. LORENA. We agree fully with you, Mr. Chairman, and

Senator Escudero, precisely because the crafting of a law would have

to be a consensus not only within the stakeholders, so we agree that

this bill should be for inclusive. In fact that should be the concept of

the crafting of this bill, to make it more inclusive. While admittedly, in

the negotiation that was just a party between like the MNLF then the

MILF but in the crafting of the law it should ensure that all the people

would benefit out of this law.

We agree with you.

SEN. ESCUDERO. And also try to understand, sir, that I also

accept and admit the fact that you had to negotiate, agree to certain

49


terms and conditions, but insofar as the Senate and Congress is

concerned, we will most likely do away with the political statements

and accommodations designed to perhaps, appease, make it look more

inviting, because these words, phrases, and paragraphs belong to

speeches you will deliver, but notI mean, I hope you understand, not

in the proposed bill. Because it will have legal implications and not

mere political statements, and we are heading towards that direction,

if I get the Chairman correctly given his previous pronouncements. I

hope you would go back to your counterparts, to the MILF, to make

them understand as well these things that we have to do, and that you

had to do it at that level and stage, but we have to do this also at this

stage to make it work.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, okay. So just to

clarify, it is agreed that we should provide guarantees that the offices

that are abolished and then reorganized in similar fashion will then

give priority to those who had occupied those positions before. This is

with the civil servants that we are talking about. What is not clear to

me is what exactly do we do with those whose offices have been

abolished? They no longer have positions to occupy within the

50


Bangsamoro, but they still have guarantees that were provided them

under the Civil Service Code.

MR. LORENA. Well, from our experience when we shift from

Republic Act 6734 to 9054, there were packages offered to those first

who wants to

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Packages offered by whom?

MR. LORENA. To the employees. Retirement packages and

other benefits. That was moving forward. That was our experience in

the past, since the question was raised.

Secondly, they can also be accommodated one way in many

other activities within the new Bangsamoro governance, precisely that

is why there is a work for normalization.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But, again, with the

guarantee as to tenure, with guarantee as to seniority and, of course,

we go back to pay grade. That is really a critical issue.

MR. LORENA. In fact, if we go by the

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Because hindi puwedeng

gawin natin iyong labag sa Civil Service Code, so we have to follow

that. But how do we do that when their offices have been abolished?

51


MR. LORENA. By just incorporating the provision of Republic

Act 6556, which guarantees the regular employees as to privileges and

seniority. Its there in the law.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So what you are saying is

that we will leave it up to the Civil Service to find them other positions

that are commensurate with their seniority and tenure?

MR. LORENA. Yeah. In fact, the provision of 6656 was really

put in place in order to assure that in case of abolition of offices, civil

servants who have occupied permanent positions and classified

seniority can be protected. That is enshrined in the law that will

protect our civil servants.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, thats within the BBL?

MR. LORENA. That can be provided in order to make it more

clear, as we are already looking towards clarity of the law.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So subject to 6656, and within the BBL. Kasi

po I was informed na

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Tinanong na sila.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Opona as we speak, kino-compute na nga

daw ng OPAPP o ng kung sinuman iyong retirement packages ng mga

52


empleyado roon. But, again, it should be inclusive. In fact, inclusive

na siya, may check and balance pa. Kasi hindi naman sila parte ng

MILF, malay nyo magsalita pag tingin nila mali. I mean, it would be a

good way of having some systems of checks and balances within the

BBL that we will be forming.

MR. LORENA. We agree. In fact, the preparation of packages

is really to give opportunity to those who also want to shift to the

private sector from the government because in the Autonomous

Region in Muslim Mindanao, there are also people who are looking

forward that in the event of the transformation in the new Bangsamoro

Transition Authority, people can work outside the government.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think people who want to

leave the service and enter into the private sector, that is very clear as

to what are the benefits that they will enjoy, again, under the Civil

Service Code. But it is those who want to remain in the bureaucracy

that we are concerned about.

So, Atty. Ronquillo, you had something to add.

MR. RONQUILLO. Yes, Your Honor.

I think with respect to separation of employees who are affected

by reorganization, the only solution is to explicitly state in the law that

53


it should be covered by the guidelines under R.A. 6656. So those who

cannot really be accommodated will really have to be separated but

with separation pay, Your Honor, under that law.

Now, for those holding permanent and whose appointments are

retained or can be given a comparable position, then he should be

given that position because thats under R.A. 6656. So if only we

explicitly mention 6656 in the law, then well have no more problem

with that, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Well, in that case,

thats another thing that we can add as an amendment to the draft

BBL, that it will be consistent with R.A. 6656 and, of course, the

guarantees that are also being made here today that those who wish

to remain within the bureaucracy will be given a priority within the BBL

when the reorganization occurs.

Now for those who want to leave the service, again, that is a

very clear situation and the CSC has a very clear mechanism for

dealing with that.

Yes, Attorney.

MR. RONQUILLO. I just like to reiterate our suggestion with

respect to the creation of the Bangsamoro Civil Service Office, that for

54


it not to run afoul with the Constitution. I think a phrase saying that it

is under the control and supervision of the Civil Service Commission

central, I think, will be acceptable already.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Just for the information of

everyone, what we are tending to in the Committee, and for that

matter, the whole House of the Senate, is that we would like to make

all of these constitutional bodies within Bangsamoro akin to all other

constitutional bodies. Every province has a Comelec, every province

has a COA, every province hasevery cityso well do the same. That

way, its very clear. Again the structure of the CSC will not change.

The functions will not change. Again, the other constitutional bodies.

I think, for me, this is the simplest way of remedying the arguments

saying that what we are doing is constitutionally questionable. Its not

final because we have not really gone into conference to discuss these

things, but the tendency, Im saying, is to do that.

So, Atty. Ronquillo, we will take that into consideration.

So well move on to the DepEd. Usec Alberto Muyot is here.

They have no position paper but we would like to hear from the Usec

as to

55


MR. MUYOT. Good morning, Your HonorsMr. Chairman,

Senator Escudero.

The Department of Education supports the passage of the

Bangsamoro Basic Law and takes note of the provisions which are in

accord with the Constitution. But the provisions in the draft BBL are

actually very general, Your Honors. But without having to be as

detailed as that in the ARMM Law which provides for very extensive

provisions on education, Your Honors, please allow us to propose a

small amendment or refinement that will provide the national

standards especially for curriculum/cbg

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JTBCadaing VIII-1 June 2, 2015 11:49 a.m. 1

MR. MUYOT. especially for curriculum for the hiring of

teachers, for teachers education, etcetera, should also be followed in

the Bangsamoro. This is in the concept of non-diminution of

standards, Your Honor. And we will submit the proposed amendment

or refinement in the next couple of days, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, because there is

language in the draft BBL that the curriculum also will bethe other

question that came up during one of the hearings is: Who will

administer the schools? Which leads down to the question of curricula

and the standards for the teachers.

MR. MUYOT. Your Honor, at present, there is an ARMM

department of education led by a regional secretary of education under

which there are school divisions which is similar to the present setup of

the national department of education.

So the setup, we feel, should be basically the same. The

standards for the hiring of teachers will be the same; the

remuneration for teachers will also be the same and the curriculum,

the core curriculum will be the same. But, of course, without prejudice

to the localization and to the addition of other culturally appropriate

courses, Your Honor.

57


SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, on DepEd.

Im just curious, Usec Muyot. Ngayon po may DepEd secretary

ang ARMM, hindi po ba?

MR. MUYOT. Thats correct, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. May DepEd regional director din po kayo sa

ARMM?

MR. MUYOT. No, Your Honor. We do not have a DepEd

national, regional director for ARMM. The ARMM DepEd secretary

serves the same functions as the DepEd regional director, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So siya na iyong parang regional director

niyo roon?

MR. MUYOT. Thats correct, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Does the secretary of DepEd have control

and supervision over the secretary of Education in the ARMM right

now?

MR. MUYOT. Not as to the power to appoint, Your Honor. But

as to technical supervision, we do have technical supervision. We also

download funds to the DepEd ARMM, Your Honor. And the DepEd

ARMM secretary is also part of our national management committee,

Your Honor.

58


SEN. ESCUDERO. So the DepEd secretary can only suggest to

his counterpart, quote and unquote, in the ARMM or BBL.

Is that correct?

MR. MUYOT. Well, its more than a suggestion, Your Honor.

What has happened is that the same curriculum in the DepEd national

is followed in the ARMM. The same standards for hiring of teachers is

also followed.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But if they decide, if the BBL parliament

decides to change itand they can do it, right? Under the proposed

bill, they can do it.

MR. MUYOT. Well, under the proposed bill, Your Honor, the

power seems to be plenary.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Precisely.

MR. MUYOT. And it is for this reason that we are going to ask

that we be allowed to suggest a refinement to ensure that the

standards which are being followed at the national level are also made

applicable to the Bangsamoro, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So in case of conflict, sir, between an

educational policy of that ARMM/BBL secretary and the DepEd

secretary at the level of the central government, an amplification is

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COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JTBCadaing VIII-1 June 2, 2015 11:49 a.m. 4 necessary to say that mananaig po iyong sa national?

MR. MUYOT. As to standards, Your Honor, I think that will be

necessary.

SEN. ESCUDERO. As to standards, meaning, qualification of

teachers and curriculum.

MR. MUYOT. Yes, Your Honor, among other things.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So hindi po nila puwedeng sabihing, Walang

K to 12 dito.

MR. MUYOT. Hindi po.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But that needs to be specified and clarified in

the law.

MR. MUYOT. Yes, Your Honor. And thats why we are going to

propose an amendment.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Next, sir.

Under the current ARMM and presumably also under BBL,

patuloy na kayo ang magbabayad ng suweldo ng teacher?

MR. MUYOT. Well, under the current law, Your Honor, for the

ARMM, we download funds.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Ano po?

MR. MUYOT. We download funds to theBut in the BBL

60


SEN. ESCUDERO. No. Saan galing po iyong budget?

MR. MUYOT. National, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So galing po at kargado sa budget ng DepEd.

MR. MUYOT. National.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Its not in the ARMM budget.

MR. MUYOT. No.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Usec, iyong sa GAA, nasa

loob ng DepEd iyong pambayad ng suweldo ng mga guro sa ARMM sa

ngayon.

MR. BACANI. Sir, mag-clarify lang po.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, sir.

MR. BACANI. Iyong budget ng ARMM today, 24.3 billion, 2015.

Eight billion of that is education; one billion of that is DOH. Na-

devolve na kasi iyon kaya compared to the other regions, the other

regions, all of their budget for teachers is in the national. Sa ARMM,

its already in the budget of the ARMM as approved in the General

Appropriations Act.

Eight billion of the 24.3 is for the education and about one billion

is for health, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But just to be clear. The

61

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES JTBCadaing VIII-1 June 2, 2015 11:49 a.m. 6 eight billion, kapag tiningnan niyo iyong GAA, its under the ARMM

budget, not in the DepEd budget.

MR. BACANI. Opo, nasa ARMM budget. When you look at the

details of the 24.3, there are specific line items there detailing the

expenditures for the eight billion education budget po, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, again.

Iyong suweldo po ba ng teachers nandoon sa eight billion?

MR. BACANI. Opo. Most of the eight billion is really for salaries,

Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir.

Iyong lahat ba ng teachers sa ARMM ngayon ang suweldo nila ay

galing doon sa eight billion na part nuong 24 billion na pondo ng

ARMM?

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Its not being downloaded? You said a while

ago, Usec Muyot, it was being downloaded to them.

MR. MUYOT. Well, in that sense, Your Honor, it has now been

changed in the GAA.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, iba iyong download

MR. MUYOT. It was before. But now, its been changed, Your

62

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