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Yale University School of Architecture
Interview with Peter Eisenman: The Last Grand Tourist: Travels with Colin RoweAuthor(s): Peter Eisenman and Colin RoweSource: Perspecta, Vol. 41, Grand Tour (2008), pp. 130-139Published by: The MIT Presson behalf of Perspecta.Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40482322.
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IMMPdU
Ail
mages courtesy
f Peter isenman
1 0 TheLastGrand ourist
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INTERVIEW WITH
PETER
EISENMAN
THE LAST GRAND TOURIST: TRAVELS
WITH
COLIN
ROWE
P41
Where did
you go?
PE
The idea of the
grand
tour
n
architecture s an
English
if not a Euro-
pean
tradition,
n
which
an
older
experienced
traveler nitiates
young
person
to the cultural
plendors
of southern
Europe.
In
the
mid-eighteenth
century,
obert
Adam established his architectural
ractice
n
London
after
raveling
xtensively
n
taly
with
his
tutors,
nd Goethe described
his
1786-87 travels o
Italy
n his book Italienische
Reise,
published
in
1816-17. While he Grand
Tour has come to be seen as an essential
part
of
an architect's
ducation,
my
ravelswithColin Rowe were
part
of an "acci-
dental"
education,
but
they
had a
profound mpact
on the manner
n
which
would
subsequently
practice.
In
the
spring
nd summer of
1959,
I
was
working
orThe Architects' ol-
laborative n
Cambridge,
Massachusetts. At the time t eemed like
heaven,
working
orWalter
Gropius
and
living
n
Cambridge.
This
was
supposedly
the summa of an architect's
ife,
ut soon realized
that even
Gropius
and
his associates
had no real
ideological
or
philosophic
commitment o what
I
thought
was architecture. AC was
so
unsatisfying
hat went to see a
former
mployer,
he architect
ercivalGoodman.
Percy
aid,
"Look
Peter,
why
work
yourway up
the
ladder
in
an office o become a
junior
partner
r
maybe
a
partner?Why
don't
you
come back to
graduate
school at Colum-
,
bia?"
At the time was
twenty-seven
ears
old.
I
had been
in
the
army
for
two
years
in
Korea,
I had done
my
hree
years
of
apprenticeship,
nd
I
was
studying
or
my
rchitectural icense. Because
I
was
in
Boston,
I
applied
to
MIT as well as Columbia.
I
was
accepted
at
both,
but Goodman wanted
me
back at Columbia. He
said,
"You
can
graduate
in
one
year
rather han two."
At the
time,
his was
important
o me.
But
I
need
to
go
back to the fall f
1959,
when
Jim
tirling
ame to Yale for
his first isit.
tirling
ame down to New York nd
I
was introduced o
him
throughmy
hen
roommates,
John
owler
who
went on to work
with
Paul
Rudolph)
and Michael McKinnell. im
aid,
"You
know,
you ought
to
go
to
England.
That's where
things
re
happening."
New Brutalismwas
in
vogue,
and the Smithsons and
Team
1
0 were
generating
new
energy
n
England.
In
the
spring
of
1960,
I
applied
for
Kinney raveling ellowship,
which
was
worth
$7,500,
which
n
today's
dollars was a lot of
money.
At
the
same
time also
applied
for
Fulbright
o France.
I received both
fellowships
nd
decided to
go
to France.
My
brotherwas
living
n
Paris
at the time. arrived
on the Flandre
in
Le Havre and took
the "boat train" o the Gare du Nord.
When
I
asked a taxi
driver,
n
French,
o take me to Rue
Git-Le-Coeur,
here
my
brotherwas
living,
he driver
urned o me
and,
in the most conde-
scending
tone
possible,
suggested
that twould be better
f
spoke English.
Atthat
moment,
realized that France was not forme.
I
spent
a
night
with
my
brother,
hen turned round and
accepted
this other
fellowship
t Cam-
bridge
to be a research assistant.
Unwittingly,
f
course,
this decision would
lead me to Colin Rowe.
I remember ur first
meetings.
would
go
to Colin's flat wo or three times
a
week,
and he would
pull
out
books,
Campbell's
Vitruvius
ritannicus,
Letarouilly's
dificesde Rome
Moderne,
and other books with series of
fantastic
lans
from he Renaissance.
I
was
taught
how to read these
plans
and to see that
specific plans
showed certain deas.
I
was
taught
how to
understand he nuances of these
plans,
how
they
constituted
he essence
of what is
architectural,
f what has become the
persistencies
of architec-
ture.We were not
analyzing
their unction ut rather he architectural ela-
tionships
n
these
plans.
This
lay
the
groundwork
or he
trip.
After
everal
months,
Colin
suggested
that was the "noble
savage"
to his Robert
Adam,
and
proposed
thatwe travel
n
Europe
for he summer.
I was the one who researched the
trip.
As
I
was interested
n
De
Stijl
nd
the
Bauhaus,
we started off
n
Holland,
gainst
Colin's better
udgment.
We
The Last Grand Tourist 1
1
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saw
all of
Rietveld,
Van
Tijen
and
Maaskant,
Bijvoet
nd Duiker t a
time
when
rarely nybody
had
gone
to see this work.We saw the Van Nelle
Fac-
tory,
he Oud
Siedlung, Bijvoet
nd Duiker's Zonnestraal
Sanatorium,
nd of
course the Schroeder House.
It
was then that realized how much Colindid
not ike modern architecture.
After
Holland,
we went down the
Rhine,
topping
nKrefeld o see Mies's
Lange
and Ersters
houses,
which Colin had
never een.
In
Stuttgart,
e
saw the
Weissenhofsiedlung.
did all the
driving
n
my
white
Volkswagen
Bug
while Colin read
incessantly
o me. Twelve
hours,
night
nd
day,
we did
nothing ut ook,and Iwould drivewhile he read,muchof ituseless trivia,
like he shields of
popes,
the
number f Piccolomini
popes,
etc. Itwas a
total mmersion
xperience.
Next
came
Zurich,
where Colin wanted to visit
one of the old Texas
Rangers,
Bernhard
Hoesli,
who had worked
with
Le
Corbusier nd had
taught
t Texas with
Rowe.
In
Zurich,
we had
dinner
with
Hoesli and his wife.
Hoesli
had
taken us
around to see Le
Corbusier's work
n
Zurich,
nd then showed us his own
work
n
his office.
Hoesli was a
very
bright
erson,
but on
this
occasion,
I
became Colin's attack
dog.
Bernhard sked
me,
"Well,
what do
you
think f
my
work?" We had seen that his
workwas a cross between
Wright
nd Le
Corbusier.
immediately
aid,
"Bernhard" and this s what endeared me to
Colin
"Bernhard,
have never had a more
exhilarating
ay.
t
was the most
amazing
experience
looking
t Le Corbusier with
you.
But
I
cannot under-
stand how a person who knows so much about architecture an do such
bad work."And there
was silence. Boom... itwas
arj amazing
moment.
Leaving
Zurich,
we
proceeded
south
through
witzerland o Como. Now
we need to
go
back to Como because
that s a
major
part
of
my tory.
Unlike
Goethe,
who reveled at the
Lago
di
Garda,
Colin said it was to be
avoided
at
all
costs,
except
for brief
top
in
Sirmione t the foot of the
lake,
because it was now full f Tedeschis of a
somewhat different
lk
han
Goethe. Mussolini had
ruled from
alo,
on
Lago
di
Garda,
in
1944-45,
just
north f Sirmione.Such was the kindof
history
hat Colin would read as
we traveled.
,
this so-called
noble
savage
who did
not know
anything,
ven
though
had been
reading
AD
duringmyyear
at Columbia and had learned
about
Brutalism,
nd even
though
had been
meeting regularly
ith
Stirling,
Smithson,Banham,
and other
members of the
English
cene
in
London,
was still neophyte.
When
Sandy
Wilson
had come back from
ale,
he
gave
me,
as a
present
for
illing
n
for
him,
he
Encyclopdie
de
L'Architecture ouvelle
by
Alberto
Sartoris.
n
that book
I
saw
Giuseppe
Terragni
s workfor he first ime
his Casa del
Fascio,
the Asilo
Infantile,
nd the
Giuliani
Frigerio
partment
block. There was also
Cesare Cattaneo's
apartment
block inCernobbio
ust
up
the road from omo. This
fired
my magination
nd
my
desire to see
these
buildings.
Thus,
when
we arrived
n
Como,
we
immediately
went to
the
square
in
front f Casa del
Fascio, and,
as
Colin
said,
I
had a revelation.
After
aving
een De
Stijl,
Mies, Corbu,
the
Weissenhofsiedlung,
ll of these
monuments f modern
architecture,
o see the
Casa del Fascio
in
the flesh
was
amazing.
I
was blown
away.
After
omo,
we
drove to
Milano,
where we
saw the
Terragni
partment
buildings
which
nobody really
knew at the time.
Theywere only nthe Sartoris book. We also saw Terragnis two houses in
Seveso and Rebbio on the
way.
My
mania for
ollecting
rchitectural
magazines
from 918-39
began
in
Milano.
Much
of
what was modern
prewar
rchitecture ad been
pub-
lished
in
Giuseppe
Pagano's magazine
Casabella. This was the focus of
my
earch
in
used bookstores.
I
would walk
in
and
say,
"Vecchie riviste i
Casabella della
prima
della
guerra?"
I
looked
in
every
ittle ookstore from
Milan o
Naples
and back to
Torino.
During
hat
time we discovered
many
small
antiquarian
bookstores,
ome of which can stillvisit o
this
day.
But
itwas
only
on our last
day
in
taly
hat we hit
he
ackpot
in
the
galleria
n
Torino,
ut that s
another
tory.
1 2
The Last Grand Tourist
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How were
you documenting
the
buildings?
Were
you taking
slides or
drawing?
After
Milan,
Colin
programmed
he rest of the
trip
with
High
Renaissance
and
Mannerist rchitecture
nd
painting,
ut
very
ittle
aroque.
I
was not
allowed to look at Borromini r Bernini.
he workwe had to see was
the
basis of the
Cambridge
course thatColin was
giving,
alled "From
Braman-
te
to
Vignola,"
hat
s,
from
520 to
1
570
in
northern
taly,
oth
painting
and architecture. f
course,
thiswas all new material
orme.
We went east to
Bergamo
to see the citta alta and
the Scamozzi
loggia
on the
way
to the Veneto. We also detouredbelow the Milano-Venezia
autostrada to
Mantova,
where we
stayed
for hree
days.
We were
now
in
the heart of Colin Rowe country.We saw Giulio Romano's Palazzo del Te, ,
with he faux
rustication
nd the
giant
frescoes
bursting
ut
of their
panels.
We
spent
an afternoon
ipping
San
Pellegrino
Aranciatas
n
front f Albertis
facade for an
Andrea.
We went to see the little-known
hurchof San Bene-
detto
Po,
with
ts nterior
y
Giulio Romano
and its
baptistery
overed
with
his
frescoes.
Twentyyears
later,
when I
returned,
here were no
frescoes,
only
restored
"original"
Romanesque baptistery.
he work
by
Giulio
Ro-
mano had fallen
victim o
the "restoration"
mpulse.
Next came the Veneto
and the Pal ad an villas. At that ime none of the
villas had been document-
ed or
catalogued,
but Colin knew their ocations fromhis
previous
visits.
We
would ask fordirections
n
our
primitive
talian nd we found and
I
stillhave the slides ten or twelve Palladian villas that had been
previously
undocumented
n
any
books
at the
time,
ertainly
ot
n
the old Baedeker
and MichelinGuida Rossa
guides
that were our constant
companions.
I
was
taking
lides,
but not
drawing. Learning
o see
requires
something
other han
slides or
drawings.
My
most
important
esson inarchitecture
was the first
ime saw a Palladian
villa. cannot rememberwhich
one,
somewhere inthe
Veneto.
It
was
hot,
probablyninety-six
r
ninety-seven
degrees,
and
humid,
nd
Colin
said,
"Sit
in
front f that facade until
you
can
tell me
something
hat
you
can't see. In other
words,
don't want to know
about the
rustication,
don't want to know about the
proportion
f
the
windows,
don't want to know about the ABA
symmetries,
r
any
of those
things
hat
Wittkoweralks about.
I
want
you
to tell me
something
hat s
implied
n
the
facade."
I
remember his moment
s
if
t were
yesterday.
his
is how Colin
began
to teach
me
to see
as an architect.
Anyone
can look
at window-to-wall
elationships,
ut can
anyone
see
edge
stress,
the fact
thatthe Venetianwindows are moved outboard from he center to create
a
blank
pace
-
a void between the windows which acts as
a
negative
energy?
Such ideas are not found
n
any
books.
They
are found
n
seeing
architecture.
In
this
way
I
began
to understandhow
to
look
at
Palladio,
at a
portico
n
relationship
o the main
body
of the
building,
t
the
flatness
of the facade
and its
ayering.
f
course
it
was
very
different
rom
ooking
t Giulio
Romano's Palazzo
del
Te,
which
displayed
different inds of architectural
tropes:
a
different
latness,
different
ayering,
he
implied peeling away
of the
stone,
and
the real stone
making
tone
appear
thin.We talked about
frontality,
otation,
nd the difference etween Greek and Roman
space.
All
of these lessons
I
learned
through
ooking
t the subtleties of the Palladian
villas. nVicenza we
saw
the
Palazzo
Godi,
which Scamozzi finished fter
Palladio's death. We saw how much drier camozzi was than Palladio. To
be able to see
dryness
was as
important
s
being
able to taste
dryness
in
a wine.
We then went to
Venice.
In
retrospect,
n
Venice,
interesting
ifferences
between Rowe and Tafuri ecame clear. Tafuri
hought
hat Sansovino was
important,
hile
Rowe
infinitelyreferred
camozzi.
We saw two
Palladian
churches,
San
Giorgio
nd
Redentore,
nd
the
layering
nd
compression
that occurred on the
facades,
their
rontality.
ow
I
was
beginning
o see
things.
And of
course we were still
doing
twelve hours a
day.
said,
"Hey
Colin,
come
on,
let's
go
to the beach." But
no,
we could not
go
to the
beach.
For
Colin,
t
had to be total mmersion. his kind f
mentoring
would
be
absolutely mpossible
today.
The Last Grand Tourist 1 3
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He walked
back?
We went
nto he
Veneto,
then
down to
Vicenza,
to Verona to see Sanmi-
cheli's
citygates,
to Padua
to see the cathedral. This is where the
story
also
gets
interesting,
s far
s Colin is concerned.
He said we could not
go
to Florence untilwe had
seen
Rome,
because
I
needed to understand
he
influence f Rome
on Florentine nd
Bolognese
painting,
what
he would
latercall Mannerist
ainting.
nother
words,
we had to see
Raphael,
Michel-
angelo,
and
Peruzzi before
going
to Florence. On
the
way
to
Rome,
we went
to Urbino
o see the cortileof the Ducal Palace
and the Piero della
Frances-
cas.
The next
top
was
Arezzo,
where we ate
in
the Buca di San
Francesco,
across from he Vasari
Loggia.
We went
to
Borgo
San
Sepolcro
another
one of the
things
hat
only
Colin would know which s a little own near
Arezzo,
with
small
church,
not
yet
restored,
with
frescos
done
by
Piero
della
Francesca.
Many years
later
went back and saw them when
they
were
completely
restored.
But who had been
to
Borgo
San
Sepolcro?
Colin
was meticulous
n
knowing
what to see and where to see
it.
Down
through
oscana we went.
We made an
importanttop
in
Gubbio,
which
s a
tough
hill
own
lacking
he saccharine
qualities
of Assisi
and
San
Gimignano.
From
here we went to
Todi,
where
I
had
my
first
paghetti
carbonaro
in
a restaurant
alled Da
Umbria,
with
magnificent
iew of the
valley.
Of
course,
we made the
obligatory
top
at
Sangallo's
Santa Maria
della Consolazione.
FromTodi we went to
Perugia,
Orvieto,
nd
Viterbo,
o
the
Villa
Lante, o,
finally,
ome,
which was a literal
east forColin. We
saw
the Stanze di
Raffaelo,
n
which
began
to understand
he three
periods
of
Raphael's paintings,
nd The Fire n the
Borgo
by
iulio Romano. I
began
to understand
how this ate
period
led
to the
painting
f
Parmigianino,
Pontormo,
nd Bronzino. Painters
were an
integral
art
of understand-
ing
the architecture. iero della
Francesca was the
first o
bring
certain
layeredfrontality
f
space
that architects ike Bramante
pick
up.
Rome
is a
chapter by
itself.
ncluded
in
our tour was
every
Roman wall churchof
the
sixteenth nd seventeenth
centuries,
ncluding
arlo Rainaldi's
Santa Maria
in
Campitelli.
t was
in
Rome that
got my
first ntroductiono
Luigi
Moretti.
We
went to the
Fencing
Academy,
which was
in
pristine
ondition,
hen
to Casa Girasole and Casa
Astrea. Colin had been
impressed by
Morettis
magazine,
Spazio.
After detour to
Naples,
we started north rom
Rome.
I
remember
his was
one of
the
highlights
utside of Siena.
By
this time was
pretty
eat,
really
exhausted,and
particularly
iredof
being
lectured, ead to,and told what to
do twelve hours of
every day.
We were
driving long ust
outside of Siena
when Colin said and this was
the
way
he would
say
things
"In 2 kilo-
meters we're
going
to take
the
right
ifurcation."
couple
of minutes ater
he
said,
"Now
remember,
n 1
kilometerwe're
going
to take the bifurcation
to the
right."
nd
I
began
to steam. So when we reached
the
bifurcation,
went
speeding by
to the left. had had
it. twas done. And Colin
said,
"I
said
right."
said,
"I
heard
you."
He
said,
"I
said
right," gain.
I
said,
"I
heard
you."
He
said,
"Stop
the car." So
I said OK. I
stopped
the car. And he
got
out,
closed the
door,
nd
I
continued
on.
No,
he hitchhiked o
Siena,
where we met
up
at the
hotel,
both
having
cooled
off.After iena we went to
Florence,
hen
Bologna. Bologna
is
memorable because we looked at Vignola's Loggia dei Banchiand at the
Carracas and Guido Reni
n
the
Bologna
Gallery.
hen we
went to Lucca
to see the Pontormos.
We looked at a lot of
painting,
ut at
the same
time,
I was
trying
o collect issues of Casabella. We arrived
n Torino n our
last
day
in
taly.
remember
his
distinctly.
e went to a
shop
in
the
glass
galleria
n
Torino,
n old
white-hairedman
with
fascist
beard,
split
n
the
middle
clearly
n old fascist was
sitting
utside the
bookstore. We asked
him f
he had
any
old
Casabella
magazines,
and he
replied
that
yes,
he
did. And
I
said,
"Could
we see them?" So he
goes
into he
store and tells
the assistant to
go
downstairs
o the basement. And he
said, "Look,
I
don't
want
to
bring
hem all
up,
which ones
specifically
re
you
looking
for?"
And
I
said,
"Why
don't
you ust bring
up
some
magazines
from 932?" So
he
bringsup
a
complete year,
n mint ondition. o
I
asked
if
here
were
more,
1 4
The
Last Grand Tourist
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i an
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9/11
What
happened
when
you
returned
to
Cambridge?
How did the
trip
with
Rowe influence
your
work?
and he
said
yes.
So
I
said,
"Why
don't
you
bring
hem all
up?"
He
brings
up
a hundred
plus
issues. Itwas
amazing.
I
mean,
a troveof mint-condition
magazines
from he 1930s.
Now,
knew
they
were worth
$10
apiece,
that
is, 6,000
lire.But
if
bought
a hundred
magazines,
that would be
$1,000.
I
didn't have that much. was
making
he
equivalent
of
$2,000
a
year,
nd
with
myfellowship
or
7,500
we had
bought
a
car, raveled,
tc. We did
not have
much
money
at
that
point.
So
I
asked what he wanted for hem.
He
said,
really uickly,
0 lire
piece.
Not
600
but 60.
I
said,
"Too
much,
I'll
give you
20." We
agreed
on
20
lire
copy.
He
had
never old these
magazines,
nobody
had ever asked for hem. could have
bought
the
entire
store,which had all of the Futurist nd Fascist material ne could ever want.
After
orino,
we went back
up
through
France,
to
Chambry
nd
Nancy
a
city
Colin loved. Then we went
into
Paris and looked at what he considered
to be French
neoclassical architecture
y
the architectsDue and
Duban,
people
who are
hardly
known.We looked at Le
Corbusier,
f
course.
And I
remember,
lso
going
to his office t
35,
Rue de
Sevres.
We stood outside
on the
doorstep,
and I looked at Colin and
said,
"What he hell am I
gonna
say
to
this
guy?"
He
said,
"Ring
he
doorbell,
come
on,
come on." And
I
said, "No, no, no,
I
can't do
that,
don't know what to do." So we turned
around and walked
away.
Leslie
Martin,
sked me
if
would
stay
on to teach a second
year.
At
the
time did not want to be a
teacher,
wanted to be an
architect,
o
I
asked
if could work s an architect.Martin
uggested
that ince I
already
had
my
icense,
I
would not want to work s a
draftsman,
nd that
t
would
be difficulto find
ny
other rchitectural
ork.
Then
he
said,
"I will
do
something
which is
highly rregular.Why
don't
you
do a Ph.D.? You
can do
it ntwo
years
instead of three and still each first
ear."
Being
a teacher
at
Cambridge,
one was
supposed
to be
sitting
t
high
table
in
college,
but
as a research
student,
ne was
supposed
to be
sitting
with esser mortals.
Martin,
with
his
political
cumen,
was able to work
t
out,
suggesting
I
do a
Ph.D.
under his
guidance.
I
had never
thought
bout
getting
Ph.D.,
but
decided
to
do the thesis.
This was
perhaps
another
example
of
my
ccidental education. I
also saw
that here would be some
problem
forme
in
establishing
my
distance from
Colin Rowe. Rowe's last
year
in
Cambridge
was from he fallof 1961 to
the
spring
of 1962.
During
hat ime decided to write bout the formal
basis
of
modern architecture s an
analytic
work on fourdistinct rchitects:
Terragni,
e
Corbusier,Aalto,
nd
Wright,
much to Rowe's
chagrin.
finished
my
Ph.D. in
1963,
the
year
after
Colin
left.
Without
t,
would not be
who
I am
today.
There is no
question
that
my
education made it
mpossible
forme to
be what
I
would call an
ordinary
practicing
rchitect. he two
trips
Colin
and
I
made a second tour
n
the
summer of 1962
-
and the
Ph.D.
were all
part
of it.
My
dea of what
it
was
to be a
practicing
rchitect
hanged completely.
ven
today,
am amazed
that have done
major
buildings.
Being
mentored
by
one of the three
great
historians nd critics f the latter
part
of the twentieth
entury
those
being
Banham, Rowe,
and Tafuri was
the most intensive
xperience
I had. The time
spent
withRowe was
my
education.
In
those two
years,
those two
trips,
received
an
education that
would be
impossible
to have
in
any
other
way.
both carried
this education
forward nd needed to react
against
it.
Later,
here were other
mentors,
afuri nd
Jacques
Derrida.PercivalGood-
man had been
my
firstmentor. was
open
to
being
mentored,
nd the times
were such that
mentoring
was
possible.
This would be
impossible today.
With
Rowe
I
learned about much more than
architecture,
rom he Carracas
and Guido Reni
n
the
Bologna gallery
o the
Vignola loggia
in
Bologna.
This was the time that
Rowe was
writing
bout Le Corbusier's La Tourette.
He took
me to the Cistercian
monastery
Le
Thoronet,
which s the
formal
The Last Grand Tourist 1 7
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10/11
Why
did
you
decide to leave
England?
Is
this kind of
learning
still
possible? Why
don't
you
travel with
your
advanced
studios,
if
you
are
trying
o teach
your
students to
see
in
the same
way
that Colin
taught you?
Or
maybe you're
not
trying
o
do
the
same
thing?
You
said
earlier that
this kind
of travel
is
no
longer
possible,
that
you
cannot travel
today
the
way
that
you
traveled with Colin Rowe
as
your
"cicerone.
"
Is it not
desirable,
or is it
simply
not
possible?
And
if
t s not
possible,
why
is that? What has
changed?
underpinning
f La Tourette.How
many
tudents even know about
this,
much ess have been there?
Allof this
nformation as
practically mprinted
on
my
brain,
because
it was
passed
to me
in
a
very
passionate
way. truly
was a "noble
savage,"
like
sponge soaking
up
this material. he
thought
of
having
Ph.D.,
the
thought
f
teaching
had never ever occurred
to
me.
I
also did not realize that twas
going
to
put
me off f the conventional oute
to
becoming
a
practicing
rchitect.
First f
all,
t
was too
claustrophobic,
oo
homogeneous.
I
missed a certain
sense
of
humor
hatwas American. also missed a certain
capacity
to
be
able to be "me." I could not ive forever s an
expatriate.
Even
though
could have
stayed,
never would have
practiced
architecture
n
England.
knew
I
wanted
someday
to build
buildings.
That
was
very mportant.
could
not become a historian ike
Colin.
The
first-year
lass that teach at Yale is an
attempt
o teach students
how
to see architecture s architects. t s
something
hat does not come natu-
rally.
ale's Dean Robert Stern has said there s
a
disjunction
between the
first nd third
ear
in the studio. We needed to find course that mediated
between
first
ear
and third
ear.
How does that
knowledge
move into he
studio?
I
am
trying
o set
up
a series of case studies to show
how Rem Koolhaas
moves from alladio and Schinkel o Le Corbusier o Rem Koolhaas.
I
am
trying
o define he
persistencies
of architecture.What are those
things
that do not
change,
what
things
have
changed,
where
aje
the fertile reas
for
hange?
How do
you
take the
knowledge
of Bramante nd Palladio
and
use
it n
a studio
with
Zaha Hadid?
How
does Hadid
do it?
How
does Frank
Gehry
do
it? I
want to show
examples
where masters
have been able to
take material
rom he
discipline
of architecture nd
manipulate
t o that t
becomes
present.
How do
you
produce
work hat does not
rely
n
graphics
or
Photoshop
or
computers,
work hat relies on the
capacity
to
integrate
architectural
nowledge
into he
present?
In other
words,
what are the
present
situations?
Venturi,
Moneo,
Koolhaas,
Porphyrios,
rier, raves,
all
these architectshave had
verygood
educations
and have
integrated
hat
education into heir
practice,
whether
you agree
or not with heir urrent
directions.
The world was much smaller
n
those
days,
and slower. One knew
every-
body
that there was to know.One does not know
everybody
n
the world
anymore.
n
those
days you
eitherwent to
college
at
Harvard,Yale,
or
Princeton,
r
you
were out. When I
applied
to
college,
for
xample,
I
applied
to Harvard nd Cornell that was it. did not
apply
to six
schools
or
eight
schools. The world has become more varied and diffuse nd the old
days
of what it was like t Yale are not same as what it s like
oday.
Peter Eisen-
man,
for
ne,
does not have the time or
money
to take off nd travelfor wo
or three months.And
I
am married.You have to be an unmarried rchitec-
tural riticwho is
willing
o
spend
their ime for
nothing,
or
nothing,
o do
this.
Nobody
paid
Colin
to do it.
We each
paid
our own
way.
Do
I think
hat
it s a
way
to learn?
Absolutely.
o
I think
ne should be
paid
to mentor?
Absolutely.
ut think he world
has
changed.
What s
interesting
s that married
my
firstwife hat summer fterRowe
left.We were on the road
going
from
lorence
to
Arezzo,
repeating,
s our
honeymoon,
he
trip
hat Rowe and
I
had taken. We driveoff he main road
to a little
lace,
and there s a side road
coming
in from
ortona. We
go by
and
I
pull up
in
the
parking
ot of this restaurantwhere
there are no other
cars,
and
I
look
in
the rear view mirror nd
there s
a
little
reen
MG,
which
is what Rowe was
driving,
nd
I
said to
my
wife, Liz,
you
won't believe this
but Colin Rowe has
just
pulled up
behind us " And itwas
true. Rowe was
withAlvin
Boyarsky,
ho was then the next n
ine
to
take this
grand
tour.
The
danger
about
mentoring
s
the
risk hat
you
never
get
out from nder t.
1
8 The Last
Grand Tourist
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11/11
Because the mentor is
doctrinaire,
or be-
cause it
s
an
intellectual
shadow?
It
seems that architects
today
are
traveling
out of a
professional
rather
than an intel-
lectual interest. For
example, many
architects
from ur
generation
are
building
their careers
in
European
offices.A
stop
in Rotterdam has
become de
rigeur.
Do
you
think hat travel
has become more of a tool for
professional
advancement than
intellectual
development?
Meaning
the source material that
supports
the intellectual
position
of these architects?
Usually
he mentor
produces
an
intellectual
hadow. Colin Rowe
was never
doctrinaire. e never nsistedon
anything
ut the
way you
learned. The
way
the
trip
was
programmed
was
according
to an attitude hat Colin had
about
Mannerist
ainting
nd architecture nd the
way
it related to modernism.
still
ee
through
Mannerist
yes.
For
example,
when we were
in
Rome the
first
ime,
we saw no Borromini nd no Bernini.
nstead,
we saw Carlo Ra-
inaldi
nd
Vignola.
We went to Santa Maria
n
Campitelli, y
Rainaldi.
t
was
only
few
years
ago
that realized that Rudolf
Wittkower,
owe's
mentor,
had written
long
article on the intersection f Palladio and Borromini
ith
Rainaldi
n
1935. Rainaldi had haunted
me without
my understanding
ntil
read Wittkower'srticle,which Rowe never told me about.
If
t had not been for
Rowe,
I
would not be who
I
am
today.
But
also,
if
had
not
escaped
from
Rowe,
I
would not be who
I
am
today.
There is a reason for his kindof
travel,
nd that s because
people
do not
know how or what to
see
today.
know
people
who have
spent
a
year
in
Rotterdam nd have never
gone
to see the
Zonnestraal,
for
xample.
They
would not even know where the hell
t
s.
They
haven't
gone
to see Oud's
houses in
Scheveningen
because for ome reason that
history
as eluded
them.
Nobody
has
taught
hem about those
things.
n
other
words,
nobody
has
analyzed
Johnson's nternational
tyle
show and asked "Where did he
get
these
things?
Where did he
pick up
these
pieces?
Johnsonwas so liter-
ate,
he saw and knew
everything.
ust
eing
around
Philip,
learned a lot
about the 1930s in
Europe
and his travels nd
why
he made the choices
he made for he 1932 show. Students
today
can
go
and workwith
Rem,
Zaha,
Herzog
and
de
Meuron,
but
students are
not
curious
as to
how these
architects
put
this nformation
ogether.
How else does one become free of
stylisms
f
convention,
nless one has
an education? To me education is the most
important
hing.
The Last Grand Tourist
1
9