TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BOARD OF INQUIRY Basin Bridge … · 2019-04-06 · TRANSCRIPT OF...

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BOARD OF INQUIRY

Basin Bridge Proposal

HEARING at

BASIN RESERVE, MT COOK, WELLINGTON

on 21 May 2014

BOARD OF INQUIRY:

Retired Environment and District Court Judge Gordon Whiting (Chairperson)

James Baines (Board Member)

David Collins (Board Member)

David McMahon (Board Member)

Page 7243

Basin Reserve, Wellington 21.05.14

APPEARANCES

<DUNCAN BRUTTON KENDERDINE, on former oath [10.28 am] .... 7244

<EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON

CONTINUING [10.31 am] ............................................................. 7246 5

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JONES [12.33 pm] ................. 7284

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON [2.52 pm] .................. 7310

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.49 pm] ....................................... 7350

10

Page 7244


[10.27 am]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, good morning everybody. For those who have been

kept waiting, we had a request to delay proceedings while some parties

tried to reach agreement on matters and so we are always anxious for 5

parties to reach agreement, if they can.

MR CAMERON: If I can say, I am obliged to the Board and I am obliged to

those who have been kept waiting as well.

10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr Cameron. Now, Mr Cameron?

MR CAMERON: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, welcome back, Mr Kenderdine. 15

<DUNCAN BRUTTON KENDERDINE, on former oath [10.28 am]

MR KENDERDINE: Thank you, your Honour.

20

MR CAMERON: Now I think Mr Kenderdine, you have got to the point in

the reading of your supplementary statement where you had read to the

end of part nine - - -

MR KENDERDINE: We did skip part seven for – which all be it would be - - 25

-

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - reasonably brief, but maybe pertinent - - - 30

MR CAMERON: Perhaps you can go back to part seven - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do not think there is a need for that is there?

35

MR CAMERON: No, we agreed that that can be taken as read.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: Okay. 40

MR CAMERON: We agreed that that can be taken as read.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is just relating to conditions?

45

MR CAMERON: Yes. Mr Kenderdine and - - -

Page 7245


MR BAINES: I brought a wrong book. Can I just pop out?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Baines has brought his wrong book.

5

MR BAINES: I brought the wrong book with me.

CHAIRPERSON: You pop out and get it, - - -

MR..........: The “other” red and black book. 10

CHAIRPERSON: - - - but do not pinch my one this time. He had – I lost one

of mine for three weeks I hunted for it, I hunted all through home and

blamed my wife for pinching it, went into my chambers at Auckland,

hunted through my office, looked in every bag that I had, it was in his 15

box.

MR BAINES: Well, I am sorry wait until question time tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: So that is what you get for leaving - - - 20

MR BAINES: Can I just go and get my correct book?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that is not my one, I hope.

25

MR CAMERON: Ms Wedde has an interesting story to tell about where she

left her books here on one occasion. They did end up in the bus

terminus at Lyall Bay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right? 30

MR CAMERON: But it was found. So yes, it is a problem, well, it can be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Many a confidential file has fallen off a truck.

35

[10.30 am]

MR CAMERON: Indeed. sir, while Mr Baines is retrieving his book, I intend

to have Mr Kenderdine complete the reading of his evidence.

40

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: And then I am going to re-examine him in the ordinary

course, after both Ms Jones and after the completion of all cross-

examination, rather than doing it piece-meal. 45

Page 7246


CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I think Ms Jones would appreciate that too.

MR CAMERON: I am sure she would, Sir, because it could take some time to

work through the other issues.

5

MR BAINES: Thank you very much.

MR CAMERON: No. Not at all. Right.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10

MR CAMERON: So if we turn to part 10, Mr Kenderdine and we will walk –

move forward from there – and - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Certainly, Mr Cameron. 15

MR CAMERON: Thank you very much.

MR KENDERDINE: The National War Memorial Park traffic. I have been

asked a question about the potential to allow vehicles exiting the 20

underpass to turn left into Taranaki Street. There are a number of issues

to be considered before a decision on this can be and I note my

experience of a similar band, when we first averted Buckle Street to the

north to enable construction of the underpass.

25

After a review, an operational decision was made to allow the left turn

from the shared lane, and this has performed satisfactorily. A safety

audit of the option of allowing the left turn once the underpass is

complete, is currently under way, which involves a formal decision-

making process with input from safety auditors, designer and the 30

transport agency safety engineers. This will culminate in a final

decision by the transport agency as to how the intersection is operated

initially.

I also noted that such matters are continually reviewed and adjustments 35

to operation made from time to time.

MR CAMERON: Sir, I should perhaps add to that, because I think it should

be done now for completeness and of course that is subject to the

Board’s decision on the matter or the determination of the Board on the 40

point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: Yes. 45

Page 7247


CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR CAMERON: No, I would not want - - -

CHAIRPERSON: No. No. 5

MR CAMERON: - - - that part to be read on the assumption that that would

be in some way ignored - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10

MR CAMERON: - - - or overlooked.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

15

MR KENDERDINE: The Park Road links. I understand also there has been

discussion about the various road links around the National War

Memorial Park, including how they will operate and when they will be

open. This can be summarised based on current planning as follows.

20

The underpass will be open for traffic in October with the likelihood

that all three lanes will be open. At this point, Tory Street will become

a cul-de-sac again, with no access to State Highway 1. Tory Street will

be connected through to Tasman Street in January 2015 as a slow speed

link through the park. Buckle Street West, between Tasman Street and 25

Taranaki Street, will remain a cul-de-sac as it is now, until March 2015

and the road will then be opened as a one way link westbound from

Tasman Street to Taranaki Street.

Current indications from Ministry of Culture and Heritage are that the 30

link will be closed when the National War Memorial is open,

approximately 10 am to 4.30 pm and then opened up to slow speed

through traffic at night. This will enable vehicular exists to Massey

University and the National War Memorial during the day and provide

the tiered benefits of passing traffic at night. 35

Buckle Street East, between Tasman Street and Sussex Street will be

built as a cul-de-sac in March 2015 closed at the Sussex Street end. It

will remain like this until the bridge is complete, when it will then

provide a one way slow speed link from Sussex Street up to Tasman 40

Street.

On the northern side of the park, the parking area for the National War

Memorial will comprise a one way eastbound lane from Martin Square

to Tory Street. It is intended to include short stay parking for the 45

Page 7248


National War Memorial and some drop-off areas for the Mount Cook

School. This will be opened in March 2015.

In the north-eastern corner of the park, a cul-de-sac will provide access

to the rare of the crèche and will include nine parking spaces. This will 5

also be opened in March 2015.

While this is the intention and the current plans, I know that timing

may change as work progresses and operational decisions could change

how particular aspects function. 10

If I may draw your attention to the image, which is Annexure F. That

just shows those roads that I was talking about.

[10.35 am] 15

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just run us through that.

MR KENDERDINE: So what I call – starting at the top is the underpass,

obviously, with two lanes coming off Sussex Street going into tunnel, 20

and effectively three lanes open coming out of the tunnel. Then Tory

Street, which runs from the top of the page down to a point just on the

corner of the police barracks, will be shut off. It currently turns onto the

temporary road, so it will be shut off to enable us to complete the work

over the top of the box which is in that area I am indicating, 25

immediately inside the tunnel, or immediately above the inside of the

tunnel.

And then Buckle Street west, which we refer to a lane that goes through

the centre of the parade ground, that will be closed during the day so 30

that traffic will be forced up and around the back of the National War

Memorial and back out and down onto Taranaki Street, and then

opened at night is the way the Ministry of Culture and Heritage is

preferring to operate that link. There is some lengthy debate going on

between Massey University for instance, the National War Memorial 35

Council, and the advisory bodies associated, the RSA, as to exactly

how that should work.

Buckle Street east, which we refer to the stretch of Buckle Street

between Tasman Street and Sussex Street, down through here the 40

intention in the long term, is to open that back up to traffic as a one-

way slow-speed environment. However, that currently is not planned to

occur until the bridge would be opened and the two lanes turning down

off Sussex Street into the underpass become one lane.

45

Page 7249


The northern lane that I refer to is the one that runs connecting Martin

Square, along the southern boundary of Mt Cook School, behind the

Australian War Memorial which is this area on the northern side of the

parade ground, and through down to Tory Street. The other part of the

northern lane is the eastern part, which runs along the side of the Te 5

Papa archives building, provides access to the rear of the crèche as well

as some parking for the National War Memorial Park, and access into

the Te Papa archives in the middle of the building about there. There is

a pedestrian access there.

10

MR BAINES: So can I just be clear you said that when it opens there will be

two lanes going from Sussex Street into the underpass.

MR KENDERDINE: Correct.

15

MR BAINES: Ultimately it is intended that there would be only one – that

that would then be converted, you say, to one lane, in a future

configuration.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes. 20

MR BAINES: All right.

MR KENDERDINE: So if the project is approved and the two lanes are

coming off the bridge, - - - 25

MR BAINES: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - or for that matter, the two lanes of option X, then

you would have one lane coming down from Sussex Street into the 30

underpass.

MR BAINES: Right. And going right at the north end of Sussex Street are

two lanes, from this diagram?

35

[10.40 am]

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so turning down to the Basin - - -

MR BAINES: Yes. 40

MR KENDERDINE: - - - is still - - -

MR BAINES: Two lanes.

45

MR KENDERDINE: - - - two lanes.

Page 7250


MR BAINES: Thank you.

MR KENDERDINE: I would say that is a matter of the NIP, which I believe

has been discussed. It is, I think, the Network Integration Plan. We will 5

be temporarily, during the construction of the project, restricting that to

one lane. But the intention today is to open it back up to two lanes.

MR BAINES: When you open in August or what-have-you, this year, there

will be two lanes going left and two lanes going right. 10

MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes.


15

MR CAMERON: But that will be before the bridge is operation.

MR BAINES: Yes. It is just when it opens.


MR BAINES: When it reconnects to the network.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

25

MR CAMERON: Yes. And the two lanes going right – - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR CAMERON: - - - No, I should not do that. I should not interrupt. 30

MR KENDERDINE: Inner-city bypass: In a similar fashion, I can describe

the staging of the work on the inner-city bypass as follows. We are just

completing the work on the westbound route, comprising an additional

traffic lane and consistent cycling route on Arthur Street and Karo 35

Drive. We have also added an additional lane on Willis Street south of

Karo Drive, that is just before you dip down towards the tunnel, the

terrace tunnel. We are in the process of adding an additional lane to

Victoria Street, between Abel Smith Street and Webb Street. And if the

Board of Enquiry grants consent for the bridge, we will then construct 40

the changes at Kent, Pirie, Cambridge, and Vivien, including the

Vivien Street clearway between Tory Street and Cambridge Terrace.

We are currently working with Wellington City Council on designs for

Vivian and Victoria Streets as we look to integrate transport

improvements with streetscape upgrades. 45

Page 7251


Conclusion: The construction of the project has the potential to create

adverse environmental impacts. However, based upon my experience

from the National War Memorial Park project construction, I believe

that the project can be constructed without these potential adverse

effects materialising. To achieve this, it is essential that there is good 5

communication between all parties as well as an effective

environmental management system. The proposed conditions help

establish a framework for this. The environmental management of the

site needs to be regularly monitored and adjusted as necessary. And I

believe the alliance model is ideal for ensuring the park is constructed 10

without significant adverse effects.

<EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON CONTINUING [10.42 am]

MR CAMERON: Now, I want to ask you a number of supplementary 15

questions. In relation to the issue of noise and the experience of the

alliance in managing that issue in the context of the park project, and if

we, for example, take Tasman Gardens as an example and we assume

that, from time to time, there have been high levels of noise requiring

management, what has been the process followed by the alliance, 20

having regard to the conditions of development consents in relation to

that issue?

MR KENDERDINE: The primary process we do is testing the activities so

that we can understand the noise envelope, particularly, before we get 25

too far into it.

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: You will appreciate this is a somewhat fast-track process, 30

- - -

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - and we have not been as successful at that as we 35

would like. However, we then involve those key stakeholders, and if

you take Tasman Gardens as an example, we do endeavour to notify

them when activities that we are going to carry out may impact them

adversely. We try to work around specific events. So there are over 30,

from memory, events at the National War Memorial in a given year. 40

And they range from ANZAC Day, as it was in 2013, which was quite

a significant televised event while we were constructing, through to

merely, dignitaries stopping off and laying a wreath at the team of an

unknown warrior.

45

Page 7252


[10.45 am]

Where we can, if that is going to occur outside, then we will endeavour

to make our noisy operations still at that time, or coordinate with

people as to when that time may occur. So we normally have breaks at 5

10 or 10:30, and that often works for someone to come and lay at that

time. So we will have our morning break, so the noisier operations will

cease, and they can come and lay the wreath in relative peace and quiet.

MR CAMERON: Okay, now in terms of sleep disturbance, and in particular, 10

at Tasman Gardens, and just to get to the point here – As I understand

the position, on occasions work has been done in hours which would be

commencing at 4am and in particular, in the case of the tunnel, for

example, during a concrete (INDISTINCT 1.19).

15


MR CAMERON: What arrangements, if any, have been made with Tasman –

Sorry, how has that issue been managed with the Tasman Gardens

residents, please? That is the question. 20

MR KENDERDINE: We are in constant communication with a number of

residents of Tasman Gardens and the chair of the body corporate, Ms

Booth, who has presented. To date, we have provided the earplugs

which was the very base activity, and we are talking to a couple of 25

particularly affected residents as to whether, as our concrete pours and

activity actually moves down closer to Tasman Gardens, that we may

relocate them temporarily, on those particularly active early mornings.

MR CAMERON: Is Tasman Gardens double glazed? 30

MR KENDERDINE: I do not know the answer, to be honest. I could find out.

MR CAMERON: Thank you. And in relation to the manner of managing the

way in which this issue has been managed from the Tasman Gardens 35

perspective, has that management been tailored to the specific

circumstances that are being encountered or, sorry, the specific work

being undertaken by the alliance at any given time in relation to the

effect of that work on individuals within, for example, the Tasman

Gardens? 40

MR KENDERDINE: If I am understanding - - -

MR CAMERON: In other words, are you tailoring it to the individual or the

entity, or both? 45

Page 7253


MR KENDERDINE: Well both, I guess, because we discuss with both. We

have struck issues where communicating with what might deem to be a

body corporate for instance, for whatever reason, may or may not be

getting through to the tenants, for instance. If the tenants are not on that

body corporate, sometimes they do not get the same information, so we 5

really endeavour, through letter drops and emails, to get to everyone

that will be affected. We have had, I guess, where we have had a

number of events quite close together, and have had feedback around

the fact that someone is doing something specific coming up and they

need a break, we have then endeavoured to postpone or reallocate work 10

to make account for that.

MR CAMERON: Okay, so can I ask you this question: In the formulation of a

noise condition for example, relevant to, specifically, the Grandstand

apartments, what in your opinion is the right approach to that exercise, 15

having regard to the experience that you have had in relation to Tasman

Gardens?

[10.50 am]

20

Is it, on the one hand, to set rules that are very direct and specific, or

directive? Or is it to couch the condition in a form which allows for a

management process of a kind that you have described?

MR KENDERDINE: I would, in my opinion, the management process must 25

be the approach. And I say that because the strict black and white

process, if you go down the strict black and white process, never quite

takes account of either side’s situation. There are always times which

fall outside that.

30

And we would like to be seen as responsive to people’s needs and

wants.

MR CAMERON: Yes.

35

MR KENDERDINE: So, for instance, what might seem a logical requirement

for temporary traffic management and I am, I guess, thinking forward

here, for schoolchildren running around the streets may not account for

schoolchildren doing their cross-country on the streets

40

But if one of the schools was to come and say, on this day we would

like to do this, can you postpone things, then that is all about the

management, that is not about the black and white. And we would

endeavour to incorporate that sort of activity in any way we can.

45

Page 7254


I mean we are very mindful of, for instance, I think the figure is 4,000

students in the area.

MR CAMERON: All right. If I can just have a moment please?

5

MR BAINES: Can I ask a question while we are waiting? Just following on

from your discussion with Mr Cameron then, do you at various points

in time sort of look back at, you know, how our relationship with, let us

take the example of Tasman Gardens.

10

How our relationship with Tasman Gardens has gone, how our dealings

with them have gone and say to yourselves, you know, we could have

done certain things better, let us make sure we do things better in the

future in terms of perhaps different channels of communication and so

on? 15

MR KENDERDINE: Definitely, definitely. - - -

MR BAINES: Right.

20

MR KENDERDINE: - - - I mean we have had, I guess there is a lot of focus

on the National War Memorial Park and underpass - - -

MR BAINES: Yes.

25

MR KENDERDINE: - - - for obvious reasons. But our experience, for

instance, in the inner city bypass work has been that we have definitely

had the time to look back on that say and well, okay, that is how we did

it, how did we want to do it? And how do we want the community to

be engaged with that? 30

MR BAINES: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: So yes, we are definitely finding and exploring new

ways, the timing of meetings, the timeframe between when we might 35

first talk about work and when that work occurs. All of those things

are now being part of our communication strategy.

MR BAINES: Right, right. The other thing that occurs to me is that whenever

you get a major construction project, like the one you are involved in, 40

very familiar territory to you because that is your line of business, all

right?

But for most communities and this one here, it might be the first time

they have ever been living nearby. So for affected communities it is 45

Page 7255


often something that is completely new, novel, we do not know what to

expect, we expect the worse and so on and so forth.

Whereas for the people doing it, and you have described, you know,

how you really use your best endeavours to make as a responsive an 5

exercise as possible.

I am wondering how that sort of knowledge and experience gets

transmitted? You know, why does every community in a sense have to

go through the same fear and learning exercise. Is any of this, I mean 10

you obviously do not want to like, write great reports on what

happened.

But you gave a really interesting example there, you know, the schools

wanting to do cross-country. Yes we can in fact accommodate schools 15

doing cross-country. It is not difficult, we do that all the time. And yet

that is not common knowledge is it?

I mean people would assume that those things become, you know,

impossible. 20

[10.55 am]

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, is the short answer. Yes, it is very challenging

taking people who are not experienced with this sort of structure, and 25

also how we might respond to their requests.

MR BAINES: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: So we often get, oh, can we do that, - - - 30

MR BAINES: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - as a response, and we say, sure.

35

The main thing we do is try and get, bring people in a reasonable sense

into our world and conversely for us to get into their world. - - -

MR BAINES: Right.

40

MR KENDERDINE: - - - Because you are right, we are all used to arriving at

work at six or seven and starting work on large, noisy bits of equipment

and working in this sort of environment.

Page 7256


We do things like we invite people into the office, we have a booth, a

viewing booth, which is open during the day just to allow people to

look. - - -

MR BAINES: Yes. 5

MR KENDERDINE: - - - To go into what is a quiet area if you like, and look

at what is going on around them.

Because, interestingly enough, if you do not have the booth as a 10

visiting booth, they will just walk past and will not necessarily stop and

actually look at what is going on. So that process of education is really

important, both ways. - - -

MR BAINES: Yes. 15

MR KENDERDINE: - - - So we need to know what is really sensitive for

someone else, i.e. the National War Memorial Hall and their operation

versus our operation. And often times we can both accommodate, as

long as there is that communication. 20

So the learning curve, if you like, is a process that we need to start as

soon as possible so that people can feel comfortable with what we are

talking about and how we are approaching it, particularly as we have

got a live example running outside the window, before we get into it 25

outside their front door.


MR CAMERON: And while we are on this topic, does the alliance carry out 30

stakeholder surveys?

MR KENDERDINE: We do.

MR CAMERON: And do you get a good response in relation to those 35

surveys?

MR KENDERDINE: We have so far, yes.

MR CAMERON: And what has been the response in terms of the way in 40

which people are reporting to you from their perspective, the

management techniques that you have described, in terms of their

success or otherwise from their perspective?

MR KENDERDINE: The stakeholder research we do is multi-pronged. There 45

are interviews with key parties at one level, then there is an open

Page 7257


invitation to people to submit, complete a survey via email, at another

level. And then we do face-to-face surveys on the cycle, pedestrian

access around the site. And we also do electronic survey of time delay

or otherwise caused by our works.

5

So we have that, that sort of suite. We also, obviously, have a lot of

face-to-face meetings, which are separate again.

The key stakeholders, as a rule, have been very positive about the

engagement and by that I mean the school, National War Memorial 10

Park, Mount Cook Police Barracks, Ministry of Defence, Ministry of

Culture and Heritage.

MR CAMERON: Residents?

15

MR KENDERDINE: And Tasman Gardens. - - -

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - So, obviously, Tasman Gardens are there all the 20

time - - -

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - and they are very much an affected party from 25

those early morning concrete pours. They are – well I think probably

the best person to answer that response was Ms Booth, who said, and I

might be paraphrasing, but it is something like a marriage. Where it

has its ups and downs, but you have got to keep talking, you have got

to keep working through it. 30

[11.00 am]

And that is probably a reasonable analogy, because it can be a bit feisty

at times. I believe she used the example of the night before she turned 35

up to give her representation where a series of events conspired for us

to send out a relatively late notification of an early morning concrete

pour and I’m very apologetic for that. But there are constraints on what

we are doing in terms of being complete in time. So, the email survey

feedback, I guess, is the one where we’ve taken Mr Baines’ point, 40

we’ve really had to take a long hard look at what we’ve done in terms

of the inner city bypass, because we’ve got some fairly strongly worded

feedback there about how we could improve and we’ve taken that on

board and we are endeavouring to do so. Does that explain?

45

Page 7258


MR CAMERON: Yes. So there is this process which is immediate and

interactive that you’ve described and there’s also the post, if you like,

survey type approach, which occurs through the management and is an

integral part of the management process so that you can continue to

adapt and develop this as you go along. 5

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR CAMERON: Is that really, though, an overview of the position?

10

MR KENDERDINE: Very much so.

MR CAMERON: All right, now, while again, we’re on this subject.

Yesterday you were asked overnight to quantify the number of days,

the number of nights, where particular activity may occur outside 15

ordinary working hours. Have you done that exercise, please?

MR KENDERDINE: I have.

MR CAMERON: And can you now please produce, as Kenderdine 01 the 20

material that you have prepared?

CHAIRPERSON: No, that hasn’t been produced. I think that has was probably

an overlook on Mr Milne’s part.

25

MR CAMERON: So, I’m going to call this Kenderdine 01.

EXHIBIT # KENDERDINE 01 – AFTER HOUR FIGURES

MR CAMERON: Now, can you just walk us through this document, please 30

and then explain to us what it means in terms of what the Board can

anticipate being the times or the frequency with which work will be

done out of hours.

MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. The purpose of this supplementary is to assist 35

the Board with the number of times the proposed Basin Bridge project

may have to work outside the hours of 6 am to 8 pm Monday to

Saturday, or Saturday afternoon.

Section 4.3 of my summary evidence dated yesterday stated, Table 1 of 40

my evidence in chief provided a description of the activities that

needed to be undertaken outside normal working hours and the

percentage of time involved. This table shows that, with the exception

of traffic relocations, the majority of activities will be undertaken in

normal working hours. 45

Page 7259


In response to a request from the Board, I have developed the

information contained within Table 1 of my evidence in chief, to give

an estimate of the number of actual nights when different types of

activity will occur outside the working hours of 6 am to 8 pm Monday

to Saturday. 5

So, I have provided a Table, on the Table are the replica of the

activities that were in the original Table. I then have a column, which is

the overall duration and, by that, if I start, if I take piling, that being the

first off the list, in mid-September one year and finish in late August 10

the next year, it is effectively a year’s duration, so I have used every

calendar day in my calculation. That being what the receiver is

experiencing. They live those days. And then I have number of nights

that those activities may take place. I then have a comment as to, sort of

the intensity and the likely activity that are associated with that. So, if 15

we go through piling …

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you don’t need to go through the Table. We can take

that as read.

20

[11.05 am]

MR CAMERON: Now I think just to make sure that we can take this to the

next level of understanding and it is not a matter I have discussed with

you in advance Mr Kenderdine, so just bear with me and we will see if 25

we can work our way through this.

If for example, and take for example Grandstand Apartments as an

example and we go back to your staging material and we consider this

information here in the context of staging and the frequency with which 30

residents for example at the Grandstand Apartments are going to find

that activity might occur at night time and the spread of those activities

and when they may occur, can you assist us to understand that a little

better please?

35

MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. If I could take members and people to

BRN14021 which I will refer to as stage two.

MR CAMERON: 1421, thank you, but I think the document, the stage two is

stage three. 40

MR KENDERDINE: Oh sorry, stage three, yes, correct.

MR CAMERON: I just want to make sure I am on the right plan.

45

Page 7260


MR KENDERDINE: If I take as an example piling being the first on the

block and I look at the number of nights that we are talking there which

is 25 there are 14 pile pours that we are talking about, concrete pours

where we fill the piles with concrete.

5

On staging drawing stage three if I look at s4 which is immediately

adjacent to Grandstand Apartments there are two piles there and those

pile pours would probably occur in reasonable proximity. They might

be three days apart for example, possibly longer.

10

I then have to walk a crane between one set of piles and the next set of

piles and in doing so where I cross a State Highway or a road I will

need to do that at night so I have allowance in that time for a night time

activity to be literally a crane either walking across the road which

would be a relatively short duration and something that we have done a 15

number of times down State Highway 1 as part of the National War

Memorial Park between ends of the project or being loaded onto a

transporter to be shifted to another location.

Over the duration of that year if you like, 350 days, 14 of those would 20

be early morning concrete pours and it would be our ideal, if you said

starting between four and five in the morning and some would be

activities such as just relocating plant.

MR CAMERON: From the Board’s perspective and importantly also the 25

Grandstand Apartment’s residents perspective having regard to the

information that we are looking at generally, the number of nights that

they would be effected during stage three which is when the primary

work would be occurring in relation to them would be a total of what?

30

[11.10 am]

MR KENDERDINE: I guess it is a little bit difficult and I will explain why it

is a little bit difficult. If you look on stage three you will see a pink

section between S2 and S3 which is the false work being put up across 35

Cambridge Terrace so in my table I talk false work and I have got 12

nights there.

The assumption currently that we are working through is that we will

have to lift the steel beams across Cambridge Terrace at night in the 40

weekends when the power and the cables can be turned off, the trolley

buses currently run more or less Monday to Friday to deal with the

commuter traffic and diesel buses in the weekends so they do all of

their repairs and maintenance on the network in the weekends.

45

Page 7261


The least impact for them is for us to do that in the weekend and

obviously lifting in steel beams over live high voltage cables it is not a

long term activity. In this staging period which is about five months, at

this stage five to six months, there would be two nights for the

Cambridge Terrace, there would be four nights of concrete pours. 5

There might be one or two nights of the crane being relocated.

MR CAMERON: Is that something that would occur throughout the night or

is it something that would occur between the hours of eight and 10 and

five and seven or what is it? 10

MR KENDERDINE: We tend to as again I talk to here in terms of the traffic

relocation, a lot of that work happens after peak in the evenings and is

normally done by 11 pm so shifting the crane is not a particularly long

time activity. I would be extremely surprised if it was longer than three 15

or four hours.

MR CAMERON: If you could just proceed with your analysis and then we

will tidy up at the end?

20

MR KENDERDINE: Well I think that is probably the best example of the sort

of staging and how these nights here relate to particular individuals.

MR CAMERON: If we were to look at each of these stages and consider

Grandstand Apartments in the context of the number of occasions when 25

they maybe disturbed at night treating that period as being eight till say

seven, we could do that exercise could we for each stage?

MR KENDERDINE: We could and one of the things that actually popped out

to us when we were looking at this is how you would and again we 30

talked to the community about this is whether or not it is better for us to

put activity nights on the same nights or not?

MR CAMERON: Precisely.

35

MR KENDERDINE: Sometimes accumulative is less desirable than the

sequential and sometimes it is the other way around.

MR CAMERON: Now the same time in terms of this exchange, what I am

going to ask you to do Mr Kenderdine, you do not need to do it to a 40

precise level of detail but to ensure the Board has a clear understanding

of this, I would like you in the morning adjournment, we will bring a

cup of tea to you, just calculate by stage in relation to the Grandstand

Apartments the order of magnitude in terms of disturbance in terms of

the number of nights by stage and then I am going to ask you to tell the 45

Board what the answer to that is please.

Page 7262


MS JONES: Your Honour, would it be possible for Mr Kenderdine in doing

that to compare it also to the calendar profile of when the work is?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the one with the bars? 5

MS JONES: Yes, because if Mr Kenderdine is calculating that and looking at

the picture it might be helpful for my questioning if he is able to relate

that to what period over the year or how many days out of a month the

activities would be disruptive. Would that be possible? 10

[11.15 am]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he can try. Yes, if he is able to do that.

15

MS JONES: Thank you, your Honour.

MR KENDERDINE: I will endeavour to. At the level we are talking about a

month to a month maybe.

20

CHAIRPERSON: The calendar is only an estimate of course.

MS JONES: Yes, no, I appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhat indicative, yes. 25

MS JONES: But just being able to look roughly at the clumping and how

many per acre.

CHAIRPERSON: It is subject to change on a daily basis I understand like this 30

court case has been.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, unfortunately.

MR CAMERON: If you could please just undertake that in a practical way, 35

Mr Kenderdine and then I think the board will have a clearer

understanding of exactly what we are talking about. And I think, Ms

Jones, if you can assist here as well that would be really helpful, thank

you. All right, now I want to turn to a different topic now. Sir, would

you like us to do that now? 40

MR BAINES: Is this going to be different from construction?

MR CAMERON: Yes, it is different to construction.

45

Page 7263


MR BAINES: If we have got a question in relation to construction we could

ask it.

MR CAMERON: Yes, of course.

5

MR BAINES: Mr Kenderdine, you said yesterday and when you were talking

us through the stages here, how as a result of your experience of the

National War Memorial Park job that you had come to the conclusion

that it was important to try and minimise the amount of changing

around, you know, to try and bloop (ph 1.58) your stages as much as 10

possible so that people know what to expect.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: And then there will be a change and then they get used to that 15

configuration for a while.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: Now, picking up on that particular point. I look through and 20

the diagrams of which that is one and it seems to me to be very explicit

on where traffic will go.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

25

MR BAINES: Right, now particularly in relation to Dufferin Street, Ellice

Street, the southern of Kent and Cambridge Terrace, we know those are

areas really important to pedestrian and cycling commuting. Lots of

people are doing it and it is not clear to me what the corresponding

provisions are. Where do you expect people to be walking and cycling 30

at these various stages and is that clearly set out somewhere?

MR KENDERDINE: It is.

MR BAINES: Do you see what I am getting at? 35

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I do.

MR BAINES: It is clear where the traffic is going, I am not sure where the

pedestrians and cyclists are going, that is all. 40

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so there is an appendix, it is part of my evidence-

in-chief or my rebuttal. I think it is my rebuttal.

MR BAINES: Right. 45

Page 7264


MR KENDERDINE: Let me just find that reference for you. It comes after

the staging diagrams. It is Annexure D2 to my rebuttal and it looks like

this. It is very similar to the staging drawings.

MR BAINES: Okay, yes. Thank you, I have got it. 5

MR KENDERDINE: What I call BRB1427.

MR BAINES: Yes, got it, okay.

10

MR KENDERDINE: And so, what we have attempted to show there is

effectively the answer to your question.

MR BAINES: Right.

15

MR KENDERDINE: And it comes to exactly that point, is that the movement

of the pedestrian and cycle paths can be quite problematic.

MR BAINES: Right.

20

[11.20 am]

MR KENDERDINE: So, one of the reasons why we have gone to this major

stage to complete the work in zone 4B is to enable us to get the lanes

established properly and then if you like on what is around the edge of 25

zone 4B you have a temporary route.

MR BAINES: A dotted blue line.

MR KENDERDINE: The dotted blue line is the, sorry, it is an unfortunate 30

mix of graphics.

MR BAINES: I see, the yellow line.

MR KENDERDINE: The yellow line, so that temporary route. So the 35

intention was that we will form that with a concrete barrier on the

roadside and that quite possibly a concrete barrier on the construction

side with a dedicated pathway between the two which will be properly

lit and surfaced for as long as possible.

40

MR BAINES: I am interested in the last comment, for as long as possible, the

time said it when that will not be possible. Is that what you are saying?

MR KENDERDINE: No, we are clear that the volume of traffic, the preferred

desire line is for numbers of students and pedestrians is either coming 45

down out of Mount Victoria tunnel or into Mount Victoria tunnel and

Page 7265


then across from the schools effectively through and either up Ellice

Street, along Hania Street or down Kent and Cambridge Terrace.

MR BAINES: Yes.

5

MR KENDERDINE: So there will always be a route from there, from the

corner of Patterson Street to Cambridge Terrace.

MR BAINES: Right.

10

MR KENDERDINE: Of that we are very clear, what we are doing here is,

when I say as long as possible it means we want to keep those well-

formed ones and not shift them around.

MR BAINES: Right, and not shift them around. Okay, I understand. 15

MR KENDERDINE: Because it is problematic and it come to your previous

question about how the construction people perceive it versus how the

public perceive it. And the construction people are used to working

around the temporary situation but the public are not. So, we are trying 20

to make sure that this is well structured as long as possible.

MR BAINES: Yes, okay. So you see in fact that throughout the duration of

construction on that busy north eastern quadrant there will always be a

clear and safe pedestrian route. 25

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: Okay, well that is really useful to know.

30

MR KENDERDINE: So, we have been working with a CPTED advisor as to

how best to do that.

MR BAINES: Right.

35

MR KENDERDINE: And it is throwing up some interesting things that we

might never have thought of by ourselves.

MR BAINES: And looking at the northern gates of the Basin now which is

just to our left around the window here. 40

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: That is obviously another important conduit for close

pedestrians and cyclists. Does that remain open? 45

Page 7266


MR KENDERDINE: That is probably the most challenging one in some

respects because it will walk directly through the construction.

MR BAINES: Of both the bridge?

5

MR KENDERDINE: Of both the bridge and Northern Gateway Building.

MR BAINES: And the Northern Gateway Building.

MR KENDERDINE: So, that is why we have two options. The yellow one on 10

the left hand side and the blue one on the right hand side. Now I have

observed as I am sure you all have, the number of people that just walk

straight out of the Basin Reserve, straight across the road. So, we are

going to put a temporary pedestrian crossing with appropriate signage

in there. 15

MR BAINES: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: Particularly as we will be moving pedestrians further

over that way and so that will be the primary route for as long as 20

possible.

MR BAINES: Sure. So, what you are saying to us I think is that for the

duration of the construction there will be a route somewhere out of this

northern end of the Basin. Whether it is to the left or to the right route, 25

that there will be a route.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: You will not be saying, “look, for the duration of construction 30

you cyclists have actually got to go round Sussex Street and forget

about going through”.

MR KENDERDINE: No, definitely need to keep that open.

35

MR BAINES: Right, okay, thank you.

MR KENDER: Because the risk is, and that we are very clear about this, is

the risk is that people then force their way through and end up in the

wrong place. 40

MR BAINES: Right, okay.

MR KENDERDINE: So, we need to make sure that they are in the right place

because then they are safe. 45

Page 7267


MR BAINES: Right. Yes, okay, no, thank you very much or that. It was very

helpful, thank you.

MR CAMERON: And just to follow up briefly on that point. The CPTED

advisor who has been assisting you on this point is Mr Stoks. 5


MR CAMERON: And the answers that you have provided Mr Baines are in

the light of the conversations you have been having with him and 10

which continue on an ongoing basis.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, correct.

[11.25 am] 15

MR CAMERON: We also have in the conditions DC23 and I am going to just

hand it to you.

MR KENDERDINE: I think I recall the one. 20

MR CAMERON: Which is prior to the submission of the construction.

CHAIRPERSON: DC23?

25

MR CAMERON: DC23, the construction transport management plan for

certification that proposed plan shall undergo an independent safety

and traffic review and a CPTED review by suitably qualified persons

and so on so DC23.

30

MR BAINES: Links into that, thank you.

MR CAMERON: I think that closes it, sir. Does your Honour wish to take

the morning adjournment?

35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you are going onto a new topic now so we will

take the morning adjournment now.

ADJOURNED [11.26 am]

40

RESUMED [11.47 am]

MR CAMERON: This is part of the weather vane with response to issues that

have arisen (INDISTINCT 00.00.37) all the material that has been put.

45

Page 7268


CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Do you want us to retire? Well, we will

retire, otherwise it puts me under pressure that it will be too long,

because we are - - -

MR CAMERON: It is very important (INDISTINCT 1.05). 5

CHAIRPERSON: I know, it is dreadful, is it not? Yes, but that is two days.

Oh, that is nice, we have got real water.

MR CAMERON: I was just curious as to what the (INDISTINCT 1.18) but 10

you shouldn’t.

CHAIRPERSON: No, well, the water for the last two days has been foul. You

haven’t been drinking it? You don’t notice the difference?

15

MR CAMERON: (INDISTINCT 1.33) I drink instant coffee as well.

ADJOURNED [11.49 am]

RESUMED [11.55 am] 20

MR CAMERON: Now MR KENDERDINE, thank you very much for that.

Have you been able to carry out that calculation by stage for us please?

MR KENDERDINE: I have or at least I have attempted to. 25

MR CAMERON: Yes, can you walk us through that please?

MR KENDERDINE: How best to do this?

30

MR CAMERON: I think go back to stage zero and go forward from there

please?

MR KENDERDINE: Okay.

35

CHAIRPERSON: Or can you do it in relation to the table?

MR KENDERDINE: It will be a mix of the staging plans and the table I have

just submitted is probably the best thing. I would also suggest that in

relation to the effects on the Grandstand Apartment we have had to 40

make an assumption and the assumption is that there is a 100 metre

radius from the Grandstand Apartments.

MR CAMERON: Right.

45

Page 7269


MR KENDERDINE: The numbers I will talk to you now do not total to the

numbers in each activity if that makes sense.

MR CAMERON: That makes perfect sense, thank you.

5

MR KENDERDINE: It is totally arbitrary unfortunately but we have had to

make an assessment somehow of the influence on the Grandstand

Apartments.

MR BAINES: Let me understand what you are saying, what you are saying is 10

if that you are thinking of it from the perspective of the Grandstand

Apartments you are saying we are thinking about activities that will

occur within 100 metres of there and if they occur outside of that then

we are saying we are not taking that into account?

15

MR KENDERDINE: In these numbers.

MR BAINES: In these numbers?


MR BAINES: That is fine, okay.

MR CAMERON: They are otherwise taken into account in these ones?

25

MR BAINES: Yes, the numbers in the table are the total, the global number.

MR CAMERON: But not broken down by stage.

MR BAINES: I understand. 30

MR CAMERON: I think that makes sense although I have not talked to MR

KENDERDINE specifically about that.

MR KENDERDINE: In stage zero which is these two stages here, so these 35

two slides, the one you have in front of you and the following one.

This one and this one, we are talking two nights of service relocations

and two nights of traffic relocations.

MR CAMERON: Just pause there, I am sorry just to make this simpler I think 40

it may be helpful if MR KENDERDINE were to just have Ms Girling

photocopy the pages that he is reading from and we distribute those and

that might make it a lot quicker and then we can produce those pages.

Page 7270


CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we probably will not need to go through them in

detail as he tells us how the tables are made out otherwise we will be

here all afternoon.

MR CAMERON: I agree and I am just trying to find a way through it that is 5

efficient.

MS GIRLING: Would you like copies?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please. 10

MR CAMERON: Yes, please.

MS JONES: Your Honour, would it be also possible for Mr Kenderdine to

relate the days that he is talking about to what time during the period, 15

but to which months from in relation to this table so we have got an

idea of the impact at each stage in going through.

CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly what he has done.

20

MS JONES: I did not know which month.

MR KENDERDINE: The stage drawings have months on them.

MS JONES: Well if you could just say them out loud. 25

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to go through the whole table otherwise we

will be here all day and we want to finish this hearing next week.

MS JONES: I appreciate that, your Honour. 30

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just explain to us how the - - -

[12.00 pm]

35

MR KENDERDINE: And my apologies had I known it was to be distributed

we might have put a little bit more effort into presentation.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all right.

40

MR KENDERDINE: The way we have addressed this is going through the

staging diagrams and relating the activity in the stage to the nights of

the activity so again if I may be so bold to take the piling as the

example there is no piling in stage zero which is from July to

September in our original estimation. 45

Page 7271


In stage one there will be 15 nights or early mornings that is September

14 to February 15 as per the stage one drawing and that we see six plus

three so that is six concrete pours plus three moving for the piling

activity numbers so out of the 15 in total nine of those will be within

100 metres of the Grandstand. 5

The blue is within 100 metres of the Grandstand and the red is total and

I apologise in advance if any of the numbers do not quite add through

because it was a bit of a rush, but if you go through that stage one then

you have overall 15 of those nights occurring in that stage one of which 10

nine would occur within 100 metres of the Grandstand.

There is no nights for false work, there is no nights for the bridge deck,

there is 20 nights or late evenings or early mornings from service

relocations and there is, sorry 25 in total, 20 within 100 metres and for 15

the traffic relocations there would be five in total and five of those

would be within 100 metres of the Grandstand?

MR CAMERON: Now if we look for example at column two which is stage

one can those activities occur for example on the service relocations 20

and the piling activities can they occur on the same night?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, they could.

MR CAMERON: You cannot conclude from this table necessarily that these 25

are necessarily separate nights?

MR KENDERDINE: Correct, and in fact the one or two of the traffic

relocation nights that are in stage one would be associated with the

piling activity. There is a correlation between those two. 30

MR CAMERON: Without getting into this matter to the point of precision, or

to a point of precision to what, I will ask you this question, to what

extent can you manage or can you avoid, to what extent sorry can you

manage activities so that those that are occurring at night will occur on 35

the same night as opposed to having them having to occur on different

nights, generally speaking?

MR KENDERDINE: Generally speaking the comment back which may or

may not be the one is that we would actually work that through with all 40

the stakeholders so we have the ability to try and match them up if that

works better for people or if one is a late activity and the other is an

early activity there maybe desire that you have the maximum quiet time

so that you do not join them up or it may be as some people explained

to us they would much rather have an intense period so if we could do 45

it all within five nights they would rather have five nights in a row and

Page 7272


look at various. I am not sure if that helps but that is how we would

approach it.

MR CAMERON: That helps.

5

MR BAINES: Is it fair comment to say that if you were for example starting a

project and you were meeting with your reference group for the first

time, this would be really useful information to give to them would it

not? This from your construction point of view says this is our need for

night time work, we know night time work is potentially problematic 10

for you, but here is the extent of it and then you start negotiating

around whether you want to have it altogether or spread it out or

whatever?

[12.05 pm] 15

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and to be fair to, for instance, the Tasman Gardens

because of the pace of the project in the National War Memorial Park

we have not been able to do this in any structured way months in

advance because it has been a little bit more of a design one day build 20

the next day approach.

MR McMAHON: Just on that matter, Mr Cameron, before we proceed, Mr

Kenderdine what is going to the forum for making these decisions of

grouping instruction nights together or having them separated, is it 25

going to be the communications and stakeholders liaison reference

group or is it going to be the construction environmental management

plan or is it going to be the noise and vibration management plan or

some combination of those?

30

MR KENDERDINE: I think the combination, the noise and vibration plan

will tend to talk about specifics, monitoring, management, the

sequencing I see much more coming out of the community reference

group as a way of tabling the information and people being aware of

the different drivers in that forum. 35

MR McMAHON: It maybe that that linkage needs to be made more explicit

than it is at the moment.

MR CAMERON: I agree, I think it is a really good idea and lastly and also I 40

think to assist and picking up on Mr Baines point about information,

you provided information on the basis of the number of nights how

many of these occasions without again being so precise as to be

pedantic but in terms of provision of information would you estimate to

be work that would occur throughout the night or work that would only 45

Page 7273


occur say in the early hours of the morning or alternatively up until say

between seven and 10 at night?

MR KENDERDINE: It is extremely rare that we work completely though the

night, extremely rare and in fact I can only account for one occasion 5

when we have worked continuously through the night and that was

when we were opening this temporary road and we were all still there

line marking and things at 4 am and we had started early the previous

morning.

10

MR CAMERON: You were getting the morning peak?

MR KENDERDINE: We were getting off the road before, we had to be open

before the traffic arrived basically.

15

MR CAMERON: So the Board can understand then what we are talking about

and when you were talking about night work what hours are we

actually talking about when that work will physically occur having

regard to the various types of work that need to be undertaken

20

MR KENDERDINE: I think I go to a little bit of this in the descriptions of the

activities of each activity so very simply most of the piling noise will

be an early morning concrete pour activity.

MR CAMERON: That starts generally at about 4.00 am does it not? 25

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, the false work may be an activity that is ongoing

for quite a long period because once you have got a 25 metre long steel

beam up in the air held by two cranes, you need to make sure it has a

landing before the traffic arrives. The bridge deck is predominantly 30

early morning concrete pours, the service relocations would tend to be

a shift so it would start later in the evening and go through to I am

thinking at the latest midnight to 2 am and traffic relocations tend to be,

the asphalting I guess can go through to later but it tends to start in the

evening and go forward rather than arrive first thing in the morning. 35

[12.10 pm]

MR CAMERON: Okay, and just so for completeness, is it possible within

your management process to accommodate a requirement that all work 40

other than – sorry. Work related to the service relocation and traffic

relocation, other than in exceptional circumstances for example, be

completed by 11pm? Is that possible or not possible?

MR KENDERDINE: I am sorry, I am not sure I quite understand. 45

Page 7274


MR CAMERON: What I am trying to get at, Mr Kenderdine, to cut to the

chase is, is it possible to accommodate people’s sleeping hours and

manage the work to their sleeping hours, assuming they range from 11

say, until 6, other than for concrete pours, or not?

5

MR KENDERDINE: In the black-and-white case, not. Which comes to the

whole process, so we would endeavour to, but again, if that means that

I have got to start at 6am and it takes all the way through until 11pm,

versus starting at 5am and finishing at 2 in the afternoon because of the

different productivity rate, I am reasonably certain which one people 10

would go for.

MR CAMERON: You are right, so you are saying that you can work to that in

a general context, as an aspiration, but would have to manage to the

particular circumstances through the process that you have described to 15

us earlier, is that what you are endeavouring to communicate?


MR CAMERON: All right, thank you, I think I have taken us through that in 20

as much detail as I can. I am going to go to the next topic, and unless

anybody has – Sorry, sir, I was going to.

CHAIRPERON: No, you move on.

25

MR CAMERON: Thank you. Now, there has been considerable discussion in

the course of this hearing, Mr Kenderdine, which you are aware of,

regarding the width of the shared path.


MR CAMERON: Can you please, from a construction perspective, advise the

board and by reference to the material that you have – the visual

material that you have in terms of cross-sections, walk us through

options in relation to width which may be able to slightly improve upon 35

the outcome that has been discussed in terms of 3 metres, please, and

how that would be done.

MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. As I have mentioned, I am pretty sure it is in

my rebuttal as well as in my evidence in chief, there is a design 40

development process which then requires certification through a

number of channels. But obviously, one of the important ones is the

urban design and landscape plan sign-off process. Adjacent to that is

this exact question of the width of the pedestrian bridge and cycleway.

45

Page 7275


MR CAMERON: While you are getting that up, I produce the document that

was circulated as Kenderdine 02.

EXHIBIT KENDERDINE.2

5

MR CAMERON: Because otherwise the hearing manager will tell me off.

MR KENDERDINE: Right, so annexure E cross-section shows, obviously, the

shared cycleway-pedestrian to the left of the main bridge. And then,

this is only in my power point presentation, it is not intended as an 10

annexure, merely an example of the type of design development that

we do. So mindful of this discussion around the width of the

pedestrian shared cycleway pathway, the question to the urban

design and structural people was how can be balance some of these

along the pedestrian footbridge, and in fact, to the structural engineer, 15

can we make it stand up, which is obviously part of this discussion.

[12.15 pm]

So in this particular drawing, with a 200 millimetre increase in the 20

overall width of the footbridge, or the attachment to the side of the

superstructure, and the relocation of the exact position of the handrail,

and a subtle change in the design of that, gives us 3.4 metres to the

inside of the light poles, leaving your 400 millimetre light gap on one

side as well. Clearly, and John Hardwick-Smith has talked at some 25

length over the crisp – I think he described it as the crisp edge – along

the Kent and Cambridge view shaft, if that is the right word, being that

400 mil concrete edge, so bringing the handrail down over the edge is

not something that I think would be – Well, as we have heard today, it

would be a good thing. So this is just a minor tweak trying to 30

endeavour to increase that width.

What I can say is that if we look at a 5 metre wide-type activity, we

start to have relatively significant structural issues, particularly with the

pedestrian footbridge where it comes free of the main structure. That 35

would be significant increases in piling and beam depth, which may

have a significantly adverse effect on other aspects as well as the land

available at the landing point which is adjacent to St Joseph’s church.

MR COLLINS: Can I just ask a question on that point? That suggestion of the 40

handrail I put to Mr Hardwick-Smith and he was not keen about it,

because he quite liked the rhythm of the struts on the outside.

MR KENDERDINE: Right.

45

Page 7276


MR COLLINS: It occurred to me that with a substantial concrete edge, it

would not be hard to have the handrail from that. But he was not keen.

So you have discussed it with him and this is now a possibility that he

accepts?

5

MR KENDERDINE: So this still sits on top, this does not come down the

face.

MR COLLINS: Yes, but it is further across. You have moved it.

10

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR COLLINS: And you have deleted the struts on the outside.

MR KENDERDINE: It would be fair to say it was a very brief conversation 15

and he was going away to, sort of, think about some of the issues. But I

guess it is that tweaking, for want of a better word, of this process that

we now go through. And hence the structure of the urban design plan

certification, both in the principle and the zone ones, which allows

these issues to be worked through in detail. 20

MR COLLINS: Yes, he also mentioned the concern about if the bridge was

substantially wider, requiring a, I think he said, ‘beefier’ support

underneath, which would undermine his intention of the fine line.

25

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, absolutely.

MR COLLINS: So that is the point you are making?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, and you know, if it gets – It does not need to 30

get much wider, in fact, I would suggest not much wider at all from

what is on the drawing in front of you, before the light gap becomes

untenable because of the large cantilevered structure, or major structure

underneath, which would be unfortunate from my architectural training

point of view. 35

MR COLLINS: Thank you.

MR CAMERON: Yes, so we – Would it be fair to say that in listening to the

evidence and in the discussions that are occurring, of which you have 40

been a part, the evidence that you are now giving on this point is

intended to convey the degree of flexibility available within the

existing design parameters?

MR KENDERINE: Yes, correct. 45

Page 7277


MR CAMERON: Now, just for completeness on this point, and so that there

is no room for misunderstanding, can that width be achieved as a

constant through the entire length of the shared path or not? And can

you just walk us through the sections please, just so the Board again is

very clear about the limitations of this to the extent that they apply. 5

[12.20 pm]

MR KENDERDINE: To be fair, I have not done it in this sort of level all the

way through, but there are rapidly constraints. So at either end where 10

we have the abutments, say for instance, on the western end, you have

an abutment with a main stair access coming up to the crèche, there in

front of the crèche.

So that to widen the footpath at that point would obviously have an 15

impact on that stair and the consequence language and room for the

zig-zag path that goes up there. So I think we could fit in the 200 mils

without too much exercise, but again, you go much beyond that and

you start having consequential flow-on effects.

20

Similarly, at the other end, the suspended pedestrian footbridge, that

would be okay, we could do that. But once we land on the footpath, we

need to be very mindful of the width at that point because of the

proximity of St Joseph’s car park, and the existing geometric alignment

of the road. 25

Noting that, going on from there, and if I may be so bold, given I used

to live in Wellington Road and ride my own bicycle through Mount

Victoria tunnel quite regularly and down that road, the footpath shrinks

quite significantly thereafter. 30

MR CAMERON: And therefore in the mid-section of the bridge which I am,

if we can just get up a picture of the structure, let us say across the face

of Kent, Cambridge Terrace to the point where it comes into the north-

eastern quadrant, is it possible to achieve this slight increase of width in 35

the manner that you have discussed throughout that length?

MR KENDERDINE: I believe so, yes.

MR CAMERON: All right. And to what extent then can you achieve it 40

beyond that as you progress towards St Joseph’s and then land?

MR KENDERDINE: We would be good, I guess, it would be able to be

achieved through to the abutment. Once you land on the abutment

heading down into the existing ground level, it would start to be 45

constrained.

Page 7278


MR CAMERON: Thank you. All right.

MR COLLINS: Sorry, what was the width achieved again? By moving the

rail across you achieve an extra? 5

MR CAMERON: An additional 400.

MR COLLINS: 400.

10

CHAIRPERSON: 400 centimetres.

MR COLLINS: Good. Thank you.

MR CAMERON: An additional 400. - - -. 15

MR CAMERON: - - - So that would give a total width of 3.8 - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

20

MR CAMERON: - - - and having regard to light poles an unconstrained width

of 3.4, but with that additional 400 between the light poles being

available throughout the length. So it then becomes quite definitional;

is that 3.8 shared path, is it a 3.4, or what is it? That is the point So we

are really talking about here a 3.8, but with the constraints that have 25

been carefully identified.

CHAIRPERSON: And it comes down to 3.4 with the landing?

MR CAMERON: No, sir. It would come down to three. 30

CHAIRPERSON: To three?

MR CAMERON: It would come down to the three at the landings at either

end. 35

MR KENDERDINE: Where you would land on the footpaths, yes.

MR CAMERON: Yes.

40

MR McMAHON: So is that comparable to the Queen’s Wharf situation

outside Shed Five where the bollards provide a constraint? I think that

was an example that was used in the last day or two. I think the

distance between the bollards and the wall of Shed five was three

metres. 45

Page 7279


MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR McMAHON: But there is obviously a further dimension available in

between the bollards?

5

MR CAMERON: Yes, I think that would be a fair comparison although I

have not gone and done that exercise myself or asked any witness to

do so, Mr McMahon, but on that example, assuming it to be correct,

yes.

10

[12.25 pm]

MR McMAHON: Yes, Mr Kenderdine can you just remind you of, I think

you said it earlier but I did not record it, the distance between the light

standards? 15

MR KENDERDINE: I thought someone might ask me that. I am not sure,

sorry.

MR McMAHON: Mr Hardwick-Smith might have mentioned it. 20

MR COLLINS: It is not that frequent because they are tall, eight metres.

CHAIRPERSON: It is on the plan.

25

MR MCMAHON: It is all right.

MR CAMERON: I just want to make sure this is absolutely right, because I

think that we may come at cross purposes, Mr Kenderdine so at the

point, can we just back up here and just make sure we have got this 30

absolutely right? So, if we start at the point where the bridge, sorry,

can we start then at the point where the shared path comes out of the

National War Memorial Park?


MR CAMERON: At the point it goes into the park, it will need to be

narrowed to 3 metres or thereabouts, perhaps 3.2?

MR KENDERDINE: Correct. 40

MR CAMERON: And then from that point through to the point where the

shared path unclips from the main bridge, that point there?-


Page 7280


MR CAMERON: We can achieve a total width of 3.8 as we have just

described it?


5

MR CAMERON: But from that point through to the abutment.

MR KENDERDINE: It is about where the pointer is about there.

MR CAMERON: It will be a total width there of 3.4, but without light poles 10

being an obstruction?


MR CAMERON: That was the complication. So I do not think that leaves 15

any room for misunderstanding. And I think just to complete that

exercise and from the point of the abutment which is directly opposite

St Joseph’s Church to the point where the shared path will then land,

you will have to narrow again to around three metres?

20

MR KENDERDINE: I believe so, yes. Obviously, we work through that on

detail.

MR CAMERON: Right. And if we have a look at sheet number 5A09, and I

am not going to ask the Board to do that, but just for your own benefit 25

by way of cross-referencing, that details the lighting strategy so that we

can see there the difference between the position that applies across the

bridge at various points.

MR BAINES: Is that 5A01? 30

MR CAMERON: 09.

MR BAINES: 09, sorry. I will keep that one.

35

CHAIRPERSON: Is that drawn to scale?

MR CAMERON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the witness can tell us the distance. Have we got a 40

scale ruler?

MR KENDERDINE: We can make one.

MR CAMERON: No, I have not got one with me, sir. 45

Page 7281


CHAIRPERSON: Well, we will do a.

MR KENDERDINE: It is probably on the drawing on the bottom.

MR CAMERON: It is on the drawing, the scale. 5

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MR BAINES: There you are. We can do that.

10

MR CAMERON: Do you want to do that?

MR COLLINS: You are wanting the light poles distances?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the distances. 15

MR COLLINS: Well I am sure it is mentioned somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it will be on there.

20

MR CAMERON: It is in Mr Hardwick-Smith’s evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure it is.

MR CAMERON: I am sorry Mr Kenderdine, you do it and I will. Distance 25

between the light poles?

MR KENDERDINE: It is in the order of 25 metres.

MR CAMERON: Yes. 30


MR CAMERON: I think that covers all aspects of dimensions.

35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

MR CAMERON: And there is one further point for completeness that before

the shared path can be, I am sorry I will rephrase that. That in the

course of the detailed design process relevant to the shared path, a final 40

safety audit is carried out in the ordinary course?


Page 7282


[12.30 pm]

MR CAMERON: Thank you. I have two further topics. The building under

the bridge, there has been some discussion regarding the desirability of

limiting the height of that building for the reasons that the Board will 5

be familiar with. What is your view about that?

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess the building itself – the way it is drawn at

the moment is with high edge of the roof effectively on the road side

and slipping down and with some option to develop the drainage into 10

the green screen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not sure what you are talking about. I did not

know there was any suggestion by anyone that height would be less?

15

MR CAMERON: Of the building under the bridge?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the building under the bridge.

MR CAMERON: Yes. 20

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I was thinking of the Northern Gateway Building.

MR McMAHON: Who suggested that?

25

MR CAMERON: I thought Ms Ralph had been suggest - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Ralph?

MR CAMERON: - - - Yes – had been suggesting that if it be limited by 30

something 0.4 of a metre, that that would reduce the ability of that

building to obscure light. So I just want to establish - - -

MR McMAHON: Oh, so it is just - - -

35

MR CAMERON: - - - the constructability of that in the context of that

building, as a matter of detailed designs. - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see that?

40

MR McMAHON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: - - - That is the context of the question.

MR McMAHON: She is the owner of apartment one. 45

Page 7283


MR..........: Yes, that is right.

MR..........: Yes. Sorry.

MR CAMERON: I am sorry, sir, I am trying to get through to the end of this, 5

too, but I am just wanting to make sure that from a – so, you are

familiar with that issue?

MR KENDERDINE: I am now.

10

MR CAMERON: All right. Is that an issue - - -

CHAIRPERSON: So am I.

MR CAMERON: - - - that you would like to comment on, or not? 15

MR KENDERDINE: Well, my understanding of the building is that a small

reduction in the roof heights immediately adjacent to the Grandstand

Apartments would not be a fundamental problem.

20

MR CAMERON: Yes. Good, thank you. No, I am going to leave the rest of it,

sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

25

MR CAMERON: Thank you for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Jones? You have been very patient sitting

there since lunch time yesterday, so.

30

MS JONES: Thank you, your Honour, Board, Mr Kenderdine. Now, please, I

will just ask in advance, there may be a few moments where I have to

look through my notes, because Mr Cameron and Mr Kenderdine have

covered a number of areas that I was going to have questions of, but

they have also raised some other matters. So it may take me a moment 35

or two to just get those refocused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, you just take your time.

MS JONES: Thank you very much. Now I will mainly be referring to Mr 40

Kenderdine’s supplementary evidence, the recent summary, because I

think that is easier to go through as being more up to date than some of

the other material, but I also have a few questions in relation to

management with the conditions and some of the approaches. So I am

just letting you know so that we have got those documents to hand. 45

And I apologise in advance, some of my questions also will probably

Page 7284


be a little bit jumping around because of coming up immediately after

Mr Cameron. Okay.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JONES [12.33 pm]

5

MS JONES: Now one of the major areas that I am concerned about is the

mitigation and management of the construction noise and other factors

for the local community. Now both yourself and Mr Cameron have

referred to normal sleeping hour patterns in the neighbourhood being of

the level of 11 pm to 6 am, and I just – that does not match my 10

understanding of who is living in Mount Victoria and what the normal

sleep patterns are with, say, students, older people, retired people. So is

there actually any information about who the people in that area are

and, you know, what their lifestyle is, the fact that buses do not start

before six in the morning. So actually for me, I do not get up until 15

seven in the morning, so is there any information about who is going to

be affected and how will be their time of sleeping?

[12.35 pm]

20

MR KENDERDINE: There are two things: one, I think, I did not necessarily

concur with the normal sleeping patterns. I was talking merely about

hours of operation. We are fully mindful of the fact that some people

work during the night and sleep during the day, which makes life more

challenging from a constructor’s point of view and that there is a wide 25

range of people and with different lifestyles living in the environs of

the project.

We have lengthy discussions with Tasman Gardens for instance about

the hazard created by the students – well, they were referred to as 30

students, they may not be students – walking home at 4 am in the

morning, trying to graffiti things and climb through our security fences.

MS JONES: Okay. Now, in relation to the community reference group, which

I have a few questions about, there are conditions that actually sort of 35

suggest particular people be represented on that community reference

group. Do you know the condition that I am referring to?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I do.

40

MS JONES: I can find condition D(6).

MR KENDERDINE: I think, in general, I understand what you are referring

to.

45

Page 7285


MS JONES: Now, you mentioned in your discussion of Tasman Gardens that

there were representatives from the Body Corporate, but in some cases,

they were tenants who did not feel that their concerns were necessarily

always captured or communications done as well as they might be. And

I see from the notes that there is a suggestion that the community 5

reference group be wider rather than smaller to enable more viewpoints

to be able to be captured at that stage and that that has not been

uniformly, you know, accepted. Do you have a view yourself on how

much diversity of viewpoints or otherwise should be in that community

reference group? 10

MR KENDERDINE: I think the reference group, as it is currently structured,

has quite a wide range of viewpoints. From a sheer logistics point of

view, opening it to all and sundry, at one extreme, means it is

unmanageable. I have tried to run public forums with 500 people and it 15

just does not work because you cannot get the granularity of the issues

of the people immediately affected and so it gets lots in the translation.

I think my view is that the list that is mentioned in the current

condition, as I understand it, is a fair representation of the people that

will be affected by the works and impacted upon the works, and be able 20

to work with us to make sure we are meeting those wider

environments.

What we do not do is say that no one can talk to us. So while the

community reference group is formal and structured insomuch as we 25

will aim to have regular meetings and electronic access to information,

the informal activity that occurs around people coming in or talking to

our staff on the site or other things will carry on. So if people are

interested, the door is never shut.

30

MS JONES: When you refer to interested or affected parties, is that matching

the previous description of that immediate geographic area that is

bounded by Hania Street towards the bottom of Ellice Street, numbers

sort of below 41 and the smaller area there, is that is what is seen as

affected parties? 35

MR KENDERDINE: I think, I mean, we are getting into the sort of evidential

exercise of some of the noise, social and the conditions, which is kind

of outside my direct area of expertise. I guess if we get approached by

people that have concerns, we will listen to them and try to figure it out 40

and that does not matter where they come from, we have got to hear

their issue, because sometimes there is an oddity about a process that

creates some effect.

Page 7286


[12.40 pm]

It is not the current project we are on, but as an example, the previous

project I was on, vibration, we were compacting road material at a

certain location, there were houses in very close proximity to that 5

activity. We were monitoring four rows of houses back, and all four

rows of houses were okay, and the sixth row of house came and said

that they were feeling affected. Now the strict science, decay of

vibration, said that that should not happen. But when we monitored,

there it was. So then we changed the vibration activity. 10

So, you know, if I think I understand the questioning is, we do not shut

our minds to the extent of the impact, but we are clear around the

efficacy and efficiency of the community reference group around the

day-to-day administration of a construction project of this size. What is 15

hard with community reference groups is if there is a continual churn of

people within it and that at every meeting you are re-litigating or

reopening discussion that people that come through the journey as Mr

Baines spoke of, about that education of people that are not used to a

big construction site. So one of the reasons, as I understand it, around 20

the discreeter nature of the community reference group, if that is part of

your question, is that there is that built-up body of knowledge of people

that are going through the process and understanding of what the

conversations are.

25

MS JONES: I hear what you are saying, but on the other side, where you have

people as representatives of groups, say, for example the Newtown’s

Residents Association, Wellington East Girls’ College, Save the Basin

campaign or others, who have already shown by their submissions and

participation in this process that they have a greater than the public 30

interest in the process, would you not actually see that there may be

advantages to the process in having those people given a seat within the

reference group so that the issues would be canvased together, almost

like in contemporaneous situations, rather than individually,

continually raising issues separately, that may be the case if that is not 35

able to be considered within the reference group?

MR KENDERDINE: I think we are probably getting to a degree of hypothesis

that I am not quite comfortable in because I do not know. I have not sat

through that submissions of those groups. I am not aware. 40

MS JONES: Well just in a general context, is it better to be managing

concerns in a group-focussed where everyone can be talking on issues

and getting agreement, and even if there is a change in who the

representative is, they are engaging with their own group, or is it better 45

to be having lots of individual concerns being raised and community

Page 7287


concerns, perhaps, because of not having that information? You know,

is it not sort of, arguably better for the reference group to be a bit

larger, even if not everyone is going to turn up, than to have lots of

individual concerns that people feel they are not involved with?

5

MR KENDERDINE: I think the – My understanding of the question is it is a

bit black-and-white, and the situation is never quite that black-and-

white. So if we take the Newtown Residents Association, and they have

made a submission, then we will be approaching them about their

concerns with the project and seeing what they are. So we will have, as 10

part of our process of establishing, what are the concerns that most

concern them. And they tend to be specific around certain issues. So I

am not actually sure exactly where Newtown starts in terms of a

boundary, but my image of Newtown in terms of Constable Street and

the main roads out in front of the hospital for instance, is obviously a 15

long way from any noise and vibration. But for instance, the traffic

flow through here is critical so that we will be talking to, and may have

a separate group, that just literally talks about flow through and around

the Basin, which they might be invited to if that is their primary

concern. So I guess there is the way in which we deal with each of the 20

issues and there is the way in which, again, the day-to-day life of the

project, which is a little bit different.

[12.45 pm]

25

Because there is the detail that we get into when we are talking six

months into the project about the shifting of a particular footpath or a

particular light pole, unfortunately, when you have a much wider

catchment it becomes untenable again. It becomes dysfunctional. So I

am not sure that - - - 30

MS JONES: Is that not – Whether it becomes functional or un-functional, is

that not a question of how the reference group operates? I mean, in my

experience from local government, sort of, functions and any good

government, sort of, you know, body in a way, decision-making 35

processes and discussion actually can reach a point or say, ‘Okay this is

what the discussion – These are the facts, this is where we are reaching

an agreement on it.’ Saying that it needs to be dragged out, I think, it

makes assumptions about how that decision-making and

recommendation process is handled. 40

MR KENDERDINE: Again, I am not saying that that will not happen, in the

community reference group. So I fully agree with you. That reference

group has to be able to bring in the differing points of view, and have a

structure, and a decision-making process around it. What I am saying is 45

Page 7288


that I struggle with widening that and start to include more groups than

are currently there, because it just makes that much more challenging.

MS JONES: In terms of the groups that are currently there, which I think are

listed in the conditions, which is document 11, Basin Bridge project 5

conditions, following planning conferencing, which I am not as

familiar as some people may be, because of course, this has only

recently come through. Now, I think it was section six, was it, or

seven? If we could just flick to that. And of course, in some cases,

whether there has been an agreement reached with a body that has 10

perhaps indicated lesser concerns, I do not know if Regional Wine and

Spirits would still wish to represented within that community reference

group. They may still be, and I am happy for that to be the case.

Currently, we have got Mt Victoria Residents Association, Mt Cook 15

Resident of Grandstand apartments, those lower Ellice Street residents,

businesses. We do not have any representatives for pedestrian groups

or cyclist groups, nor is there representation from some of the other

major submitters to the process, who are indicating that they do have,

you know, quite strong concerns, that would perhaps, again, be 20

managed of being able to have that opportunity to discuss things and

have those concerns eased through that reference group process.

Because that is the process that you have talked about, that lack of

information and lack of ability to have your voice heard is one of the

reasons why people get concerned. I mean, is that not what you have 25

been saying in some of your other submission material? That the actual

ability to have open communications and community voices and dispel

misinformation – is that not part of the approach that you are saying

that you are taking through these other engagements?

30

MR KENDERDINE: I would endorse the fact that good communication flows

assist with people’s understandings. There is absolutely no doubt about

that. I guess, looking at this particular version, clearly there is some

debate amongst planners who are far more familiar with the structure of

these groups than I. I mean, I have been involved in the formation and 35

running of five community reference groups of various nature,

including some for very large prison projects, and that, as a neighbour,

trust me, creates a little bit of tension. The point here is that there are

design issues to be worked out, for instance, if I just look at this quick

list, and clearly the architecture centre is involved and has had strong 40

representation at this hearing.

Page 7289


[12.50 pm]

So, given I am an architect and a large number of friends who are

associated with it, there is no doubt that we will be having a

conversation with them specifically about the nature of further 5

engagement if the board gives approval to the project. I mean there are

specific requirements in these conditions about who gets involved in

which component of which work but again as I say it does not

necessarily close the door.

10

However, the operational nature of the Community Reference Group

means that the ‘the locals’ in inverted commas are the critically

affected parties and making this much wider removes that. It actually

removes from a construction point of view, we are moving here from a

debate about the general delivery, you know, the general concept of the 15

project into the specifics. And it is that phase change where we need to

have those people that we are going to be dealing with feeling really

clear about their engagement and not the reverse often happens which

is “I am right next door to this, why is this person who is a kilometre

away involved? You know, I do not want to hear about their problems”. 20

And so there is this tension, so we need to manage that and my feeling

is that this is doing that. It is providing that local focus and that there

are other forums with which we will carry out other conversations.

25

MS JONES: I am not sure you and I agree on the definition of local in this

circumstance. For example, in your discussion of considering the issues

that were raised by noise, I raised personally my concerns over noise

but my name and my submission was not included in the list of those

issues that you considered. 30

So I am just sort of giving that as an example that your interpretation of

local does seem to be a lot more narrow than some of the submitters to

this process. And we are certainly not talking about 500 people

concerned but we are talking about a small but very concerned sort of 35

grouping who feel that they are being left out and again, I ask what

would be the harm in enabling those groups of people, submitters to

this process, to have a voice within the Community Reference Group.

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess I take the advice of the likes of the 40

planners that have been involved in terms of the structure of the

Community Reference Group. On that I think - I have pointed out my

concerns about a group that is too big and I believe this represents good

people. I mean, a reasonably cross section of the community to come

forward. I mean, there is always this other people being able to be 45

Page 7290


included and when we have those conversations we can help facilitate

that inclusion or exclusion.

MS JONES: Okay. Now, DC7 of the conditions provides for a register of

feedback and complaints. You are familiar with that section? “But, 5

during the construction work the authority will maintain a register of

feedback”.


10

MS JONES: I did not see a similar register for interested parties for updates.

In light of good communications, could there be a register of interested

parties to enable regular updates on such as changes to work times and

the like?

15

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, there could be. I guess by practice we do that.

MS JONES: So, that could be by an open sign on process that would be - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes. 20

MS JONES: - - - made known to anyone sort of through this?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, we produce an update, we aim fortnightly but

pressures must sometimes we do not quite there on the current project. 25

[12.55 pm]

MS JONES: I have after a number of repeated requests finally got one of

those. I found the detail quite lacking in terms of the timing. I am sort 30

of, you know, asking whether it is possible to have more precise

updates like, you know, “next week we will be doing X numbers of

work”, you know, but making it available. The type of information that

might go to the neighbours immediately there but making it more

widely available for people who have registered a strong interest. 35

MR KENDERDINE: I think, if I can be so bold, yes, we would do that and I

guess this is the challenge of any construction project. For instance, the

crèche shifting that has just taken place. Started rolling at roughly 1

o’clock on Monday and was going very well and then stopped. It was 40

supposed to carry on the next morning first thing but did not because

one of the, what we call flapjacks, that actually raise about 10

millimetres and make that process work, burst, split.

So the challenge for us is that that happens all the time, in many ways. 45

So, those little changes means that we will say in an ideal world we

Page 7291


will be pouring concrete in the next four weeks on these days and then

the concrete plant will tell us that they are shutting down for

maintenance on two of them. So, we will either have to bring one

forward or put one back and that process unfortunately is constant.

5

MS JONES: Yes, but at the same time perhaps comparing it say, for the

Chorus work that recently happened in Mount Victoria. Where in my

street when the work was happening there was the advanced notice that

it was happening, there was a contact to say if you need more

information. So, when getting more information and the proposal was 10

to start at 8am and I raised objections to that and so we negotiated a

start time of 9.30 and I got the phone number of the person and that

was a negotiated process.

And it did not always fall to that and there were two subcontractors 15

doing work at different times but there was enough information that it

was not the same level of anxiety that my friends in Vivian Street

encountered when at 11 o’clock at night with no advanced notice

overnight the road was dug up and continued till 4am. And that was

happening, as I say, with no advanced notice. So, is it possible for there 20

to be advanced notice given, not of definites but we are planning to do

these activities over this timeframe and there may - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely.

25

MR JONES: - - - be differences.


MR JONES: Because is that is the, you know, - - - 30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR JONES: - - - advanced notice is the issue.

35

MR KENDERDINE: Yes and I think as I mentioned in a question again from

Mr Baines about our learnings, you know, that is one of the things we

have taken out from the inner city bypass work is the saturation of

information and different communication channels that we were

required to do, that we really need to do to get people aware of what is 40

going on. So in one case despite putting a flyer through their front door

of a shop seven days in a row, there was no recognition that we had

made any effort to communication with them.

Page 7292


So, some people you actually need to go and front up and say this is

what we think we are going to do. Others, they say, well, we never

picked it up because it is junk mail. Please send it to this email address.

MS JONES: So, is there a communications plan being developed to in a way 5

seek out a register of, these people need to be contacted by email, these

people by phone, these by another thing and have that as an advanced

planning tool. So that it is not a question of sending a piece of paper to

a box that is never cleared as opposed to a person who might have a

hearing impairment and prefer to get texts or emails or you know. 10

MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes, so there is a Communications Management

Plan as part of the Suite Estate.

MS JONES: Yes. 15

MR KENDERDINE: I think that may not be the exact technical title.

MS JONES: So again, how widely is that and can it be a sign on, like, having

a template, so let us say on a website or something so that it is not just 20

the immediate sort of houses but all those we have indicated.


CHAIRPERSON: There is a clause for the DC5 which requires a stakeholder 25

liaison person to be appointed. So you merely have to contact that

person and say I want advanced notice sent to my email address which

is such and such.

MS JONES: I agree, if the identity and contact details of that person are 30

known to the people who need to find it because it is that link up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it has to be appointed and has to be publicised.

So, a lot of these things can be done, they do not need conditions

because that is what the person is there for, to handle those sort of 35

things.

[1.00 pm]

MS JONES: Well, certainly, having heard the discussion, I am fully of an 40

agreement that overly prescriptive conditions can do more harm than

good, but that having drafted general legislation myself I sort of see no

harm in having a provision to a general approach being part of the

condition taken about recognising, sort of, the (INDISTINCT

00.00.40) 45

Page 7293


CHAIRPERSON: If you wish any condition to be changed, you give us some

wording. We are not going to draft wording, because it is not our job.

MS JONES: No, I appreciate that. And as I said, those people who have asked

for there to be more consideration of pedestrians - - - 5

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS JONES: - - - and cyclists within the group been sort of – I hear the

concerns but I am not the cyclist, so I am not sort of saying what it is, 10

but just notifying endorsing, as it - - -

CHAIRPERSON: By all means, if you have any proposal that you wish to put

forward relating to the conditions, give them to us - - -

15

MS JONES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: - - - and make sure we get them before the planners who

are caucusing on conditions caucus, not caucus, I mean – give

contemporaneous evidence on the conditions before they give 20

evidence.

MS JONES: Now in the process for how – Thank you very much, your

Honour, I will certainly take that on board.

25

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now, could we break for lunch now? It is 1 o’clock.

MS JONES: Yes. Sorry. Yes.

MR CAMERON: Sir, just before we go. I had not wanted to interrupt, but I 30

have one question that I should have asked Mr Kenderdine, and while

Mrs Halakas is here I would particularly like to do that, if I could.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

35

MR CAMERON: I think it is one, it may be two. It will not take a minute. Mr

Kenderdine, if we could just look at Annexure two, the long section

there of the shared path and if we look at it where it unclips through to

just to the north of the St Joseph’s Church structure?

40

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not sure what do you mean by St Joseph’s

Church structure?

45

MR CAMERON: This.

Page 7294


CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see it.

MR CAMERON: Sorry, sir. The - - -

5

MR..........: I think it is too dark.

MR KENDERDINE: I think, he is talking from roughly - - -

MR..........: Oh, here you go. 10

MR..........: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, right.

15

MR KENDERDINE: - - - roughly from there, round and slightly just off the

page.

MR CAMERON: Just can we bring the page up?

20

MR KENDERDINE: Here we go. From about there, say, to about there.

Would that be - - -

MR CAMERON: That is exactly what I am talking about. Can you – you

anticipated the question. And without disturbing structural detail, so in 25

other words, without changing that is it possible to change the

alignment of that shared path within that section of it by up to three

metres?

MR KENDERDINE: We are looking at exactly that option, being mindful to 30

the structural needs and also the urban design evidence and landscape

evidence that has been presented and the process that we need to go

through. But it would appear that there is an option, a viable option, to

bring the pedestrian footbridge an additional three metres away from

the Halakas residence. 35

CHAIRPERSON: That would be to the south, would it?

MR KENDERDINE: Well, effectively, it is to the - - -

40

MR CAMERON: Closer to the bridge, south-west.

CHAIRPERSON: Closer to the bridge.

MR KENDERDINE: Closer to the bridge, yes. From our point of view there 45

is a number of benefits from that exercise, not least of which is the

Page 7295


reduction in the number of piles. Hence the reduction in the number of

piers, which I think, from an urban design point of view, they are quite

keen to see that, if possible. Because obviously those columns obstruct

views and, and, and, and. So that is currently what we are doing. In

terms of what we are looking at and I guess we are canvassing opinions 5

and we will present it if it goes through that process to the urban design

and landscape certifiers and work that through with them.

MR CAMERON: So that would be a process that you would anticipate as

being appropriate within the detailed design process? 10


[1.05 pm]

15

MR CAMERON: And just for completeness, because Mrs Halakas may want

to talk to you about that in the luncheon adjournment, I do not know,

and she is welcome to do so from my perspective. But it also has

benefits, I think, for Regional Wines and Spirits, is that correct?

20

MR KENDERDINE: It does. It reduces the number of piles and piers in their

car park to one from two. And there is no doubt about it that in terms of

the business, parking a 60 to 100 tonne crane in the car park for longer

than you need to is not a good idea, so if we can reduce that then that

will be of benefit. 25

MR CAMERON: Good. I am obliged to the Board.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will adjourn until 2 o’clock.

30

ADJOURNED [1.05 pm]

RESUMED [2.16 pm]

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now, Ms Jones? 35

MS JONES: Jumping back a little bit, Mr Kenderdine, you say in section 2.12

of your supplementary evidence that in part of your roles you have

advised on the mitigation of construction effects? So I just have a

couple of questions on the mitigation options. Is your brief to this 40

project to also look at the budgeting for the range of mitigations which

some submitters have asked about such as double glazing or the

temporary accommodation elsewhere?

MR KENDERDINE: We have been asked to assist with Opus or NZTA in 45

terms of coming up with some of those numbers.

Page 7296


MS JONES: So do you have consideration for how many affected people you

might be looking at helping with mitigation?

MR KENDERDINE: At the moment that sits with the advice of Mr Dravitzki 5

and obviously the outcome of the Board and also NZTA. And I guess I

am saying my view in that is not pertinent.

MS JONES: That is fine. In relation to the input of the community reference

group, is their views or their sort of recommendations going to play any 10

part in decisions on mitigation, so whether it be temporary relocation or

other measures?

MR KENDERDINE: I mean, I would have thought that in the broad sense,

yes, I think whether or not an individual ends up with double glazing 15

will not be a matter for common discussion with the wider public for

obvious reasons.

MS JONES: I could sort of speculate perhaps that given a choice between five

days of intensive noise and the option to be located at a motel or hotel 20

or similar place – and that would be paid for by the project – versus

five days intense noise not being paid for, or a spread number of days

with no sort of accommodation that you will have actually different

responses. Do you think that is - - -

25

MR KENDERDINE: I would say that is quite likely, yes.

MS JONES: So that it would make sense in that way for there to be very close

connection between the planning and the mitigation options that could

be offered? 30

MR KENDERDINE: In that respect, definitely, in terms of whether or not we

have a short intense period versus a wider dispersed activity, yes.

MS JONES: And is that something that you would have capacity to authorise, 35

or approve, or is that something that would be handled by somebody

else?

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess at the of the day, I guess the phase goes,

the buck stops with me, but the way the alliance works, there is 40

obviously – all the parties are there, so NZTA will be part of that

discussion, as will the various affected parties.

MS JONES: Right. And so do you know to what extent the decisions on that

would be kept by financial versus what is best for the members in the 45

community, or the project?

Page 7297


MR KENDERDINE: I think that is probably straying outside my remit at the

moment.

MS JONES: Okay. Just that there have been questions about sort of cost as 5

being a factor and how important that is in the weighting that is given

to those decisions.

MR KENDERDINE: Oh, well I mean, I guess, from my point of view, that

the cost of the mitigation is obviously clearly part of the discussion. It 10

is not the only part of the discussion, but it is definitely part of the

discussion.

[2.20 pm]

15

MS JONES: So that in general, given that temporary relocation is likely to be

cheaper than such other structural mitigations, would that be the

preferred option if people do need to have solutions found for them?

MR KENDERDINE: I guess I do not really have a preferred at this stage. So, 20

yes.

MS JONES: Okay, now I am aware that we are running against the clock a

little bit, well, I certainly am, so I am going to probably jump a few

sections and go onto a different topic which is cricket and the impact of 25

the construction on that. You refer in 3.6 of your supplementary

evidence to questions raised about the construction of the Northern

Gateway period and developing an agreement for how that would be

handled. Now, my understanding is that there are questions raised

about construction of the entire project, the piles and everything else. Is 30

there any proposal to have an agreement for all of those other parts to

ensure that cricket is not disrupted by those other construction phases?

MR KENDERDINE: I think that the process around that, I am just looking at

your – the thing you addressed us to earlier to see whether Wellington 35

cricket is in there. In terms of the community reference group, it does

not appear to be just at a quick glance.

MS JONES: No, it does not.

40

MR KENDERDINE: But very clearly, I mean, if you look at 3.7 there is an

agreement around the construction of the Northern Gateway building

and there will be dialogue with them as to when significant activities

are taking place.

45

MS JONES: Yes, but the Northern. Sorry - - -

Page 7298


MR KENDERDINE: If people want to practice, I am not going to necessarily

stop piling. But if there is a one-off test of international status, putting

piles down outside the front gate at that particular day would,

obviously, not be ideal. So, yes, that is just part of the wider discussion. 5

MS JONES: So when you refer to a one-day test, you are of course meaning

an up to five day test, plus another day of preparation are you not?

MR KENDERDINE: Sorry, I am not a cricketer, but if it is a five-day test, yes. 10

MS JONES: Tests are five days, international games are one day. Now, given

that the Northern Gateway building, if constructed, would actually be

within the grounds of the Basin Reserve, you would of course have to

get agreement for that. However, the question was more about whether 15

construction would be continuing during the period of games that are

being played. You know, construction of piles and other things. Do you

see that construction continuing or would there be down tools during

the times of other games as well?

20

MR KENDERDINE: Again, I guess it is not quite so black-and-white. If we

had a high noise activity occurring – or high visibility, as for instance,

if we were talking large piling cranes for instance, operating in an area

that was sensitive to the cricket match, then we would have that

discussion as to how we would manage that. The stopping of all works 25

because of a cricket match is unlikely because some of those works will

not generate noise or disruption.

MS JONES: So can you give an agreement that works that do not produce

noise above the ambient traffic level of, I think it is 60 to 75 decibels, 30

would not be carried out during the time of a cricket game? Would that

agreement be able to be produced?

MR KENDERDINE: I think in due course I will talk to the Wellington cricket

group about exactly what those parameters are. 35

MS JONES: So talking – I am asking for something a bit more substantial

than that. To give the security, because you know, people want to know

in advance.

40

MR KENDERDINE: Certainly. And we would have that agreement before

there was any construction was underway and before any cricket

matches were being played during construction. But it comes to this

point as I have not personally sat down with the Basin Reserve Trust or

the Wellington cricket – I am sorry, I am not sure if that is their official 45

title – as to what their key sensitivities are. And whether or not, if we

Page 7299


are carrying out piling over by Regional Wines and Spirits for

instances, they may say, ‘Well, that is fine,’ or when we explain the

noise levels and the level of effect that may have.

[2.25 pm] 5

So until I have done that, I cannot give you a concrete answer because I

have not worked with them about the parameters.

MS JONES: And of course, you do appreciate - - - 10

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Jones, the agreement reached between the

Wellington City Council, the Basin Reserve Trust, and the Transport

Agency provides for them to agree on their construction program

during the cricket season. So we - - - 15

MS JONES: They do not, however, necessarily represent all cricket fans

wanting to watch.

CHAIRPERSON: Well yes, I know, but you have got to - - - 20

MS JONES: Yes, thank you for - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Got to draw a line somewhere.

25

MS JONES: Thank you for clarifying that. Now I think we have discussed

some of the questions I had about the community reference group, so

probably, although I think it should still include cycling and pedestrian

input, that is something that may be outside your ability to comment

on. 30

Sorry, I am just checking through my questions for what has been

covered. Noise monitoring: In section five at 5.1 and 5.5, there is

reference to monitoring of the project. And that you say in 5.1 that

baseline noise measurements would be made, and in 5.5 you say that 35

there would be noise monitoring sites established in the area. Yesterday

– No, sorry not yesterday. The previous day when we were discussing

with Mr Dravitzki about the use of publicly accessible noise monitors,

which I sort of asked about, he was concerned that uninformed use of

monitors might not be helpful. So I would now ask, would it be 40

possible for there to be ongoing, regular use of noise monitors and

information updates for the public, possibly added on to a website or

some person designated to handle information about that, partly - - -

MR KENDERDINE: I think the short answer is yes. 45

Page 7300


MS JONES: Good, because - - -

MR KENDERDINE: We would be – my assumption, and it may well be in

the plan, there is quite a lot of plans, quite a lot of words, but my

assumption is that we will be regularly monitoring. We will be 5

publishing the, like, our initial testing before we do activities and the

like, and that that would be publicly available on a wider sense, but

very much so to the community reference group and the particular

parties around.

10

MS JONES: Part of my – Which may be a positive from your end, is that Mr

Dravitzki discussed the misinformation where people think that the

noise is coming from one area whereas in fact, it is coming from a

different area. And so actually having accurate information relating to

the project may be more helpful so that people can then can track down 15

if it is actually something different, so that the more publicly available

the information is, the fewer ongoing problems there might be as a

result of noise.

MR KENDERDINE: Definitely, it is a vexed question I understand, but yes, 20

if we can provide the information that helps with the conversation.

MS JONES: Okay. Now would it be fair, when you are talking about how

things have been handled with Memorial Park Alliance on that project,

that the approach is to comply with the legal requirements for noise 25

management and other environmental management?

MR KENDERDINE: In terms of the Act?

MS JONES: Yes, in terms of the Act and the conditions that were approved. 30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, we definitely attempt to. Sometimes we have not

quite managed, but we always attempt to follow both the act the plans

that are certified under that.

35

MS JONES: Okay, is there anything in the approach that has been taken that

actually goes beyond compliance?

MR KENDERDINE: I cannot think of anything off the top of my head, but

we do, I think, strictly speaking for instance, the shutting down or the 40

quiet periods on a couple of occasions is not strictly in compliance, so

it is what we have enabled to agree around an event for instance, at the

National War Memorial.

Page 7301


[2.30 pm]

MS JONES: Perhaps it would be sort of clearer, I’ll just explain a little bit

what I mean. There is a difference between a compliance based regime

and an in principle commitment to not doing harm which, you know, 5

I'm sure you appreciate. Just like you can have a set of, you don’t do

this because these are hazards versus take a safety culture approach for

managing hazards and that awareness sort of raising.

Could you sort of say which balance is taken within the Memorial Park 10

alliance and what would be taken if in this project perhaps?

MR KENDERDINE: I think we are getting probably areas outside of my

expertise but I guess the approach is that this is we have the noise, on

the specific one, we obviously have the noise criteria and we try to use 15

that as the basis for conversation and the activity.

If we find occasions where even in compliance with those strict criteria

there are issues being raised or impacts, then we will try to address

those if we can. 20

MS JONES: So in terms of how this is handled within the project as a whole,

perhaps I’ll give another example. When Chorus was doing its digging

in the roads at Mount Victoria, there was a top level commitment to

working with the community. 25

However, some of the agreements were not communicated to the staff

so that there were works going on at different times, different

subcontractors doing things that actually resulted in noise impact that

were not officially approved. 30

Could you outline a bit, what level of training and awareness of issues

is there for the staff and also in relation to that, whether the workers on

the project would be employees, contractors, casuals and what type of

safety training or programme. It’s just that I am aware that it makes an 35

impact.

MR KENDERDINE: It’s quite a broad range, but I guess if I start with the

approach, yes I’m fully mindful and again, I think it goes to a question

that was raised earlier just about the level of which information is 40

conveyed to all the people in the project. One of the positives of this

project which, ironically, people are seeing as large, but the number of

people involved in a direct sense isn't huge.

At around 150 out there on site, we actually have an ability to engage 45

with quite a lot of them. The majority of those on this site are probably

Page 7302


subcontracted, but some of them are on the project for the duration and

are very much part of what we see as the family.

And we have a number of events; breakfasts, what we call tailback

meetings which is effectively bringing everyone together to talk about 5

health, safety, cultural aspects. If needs to, we have specific one-off

meetings to discuss things.

Everyone coming into the project is inducted in health and safety, but

also these other issues which I talk about in my earlier evidence, what 10

we call the key result areas. So a healthy environment, which is to do

with noise and discharge and what have you, is one of those.

Proud Legacy is another one. Our stakeholder relationships are right

up there. So those sorts of things we discuss with every single person 15

that comes onto the site. Sometimes it doesn’t get through as one

might like, but we keep working at that.

MS JONES: Okay, so under the Health and Safety in Employment Act there

is the opportunity for the workers to elect representatives though part of 20

the Health and Safety plan. Now that, my memory suggests, is for

employees, not necessarily contractors. But do you know, sort of, just

from your recollection whether there will be a health and safety group?

MR KENDERDINE: There is a health and safety committee and we don’t 25

draw a distinction between subcontractors or direct employees in terms

of the representation on that.

MS JONES: And I raise this because, of course, you know sites where there is

an active committee are safer and this can have an impact locally. 30

Okay, moving to a different topic which is on traffic logistics, would I

be right in thinking that your role includes oversight of the logistics for

what is moving around, coming to the site like delivery of materials,

equipment and what is happening in the neighbourhood? 35

[2.35 pm]

Is your planning including some of the other infrastructure and utility

changes in the neighbourhood, because I understand from Capacity, 40

they are going to be doing water main replacement starting in July next

year. And just that there will be quite a lot of time overlap. So have

you, at this stage, looked at the timing for the calendar of when that

might happen?

45

Page 7303


MR KENDERDINE: We have. It changes, the various utility managers and

asset owners do tend to change their programmes. We are much better

dressed, if that's the right expression, for this part of the project than we

were for National War Memorial Park, because it happened with such

haste. 5

We have been talking with the likes of Capacity, Powerco, the gas

people, Wellington Cable Car Company etc., about exactly when they

need to do asset upgrades, whether those assets are assets that we

would be impacting on anyway to make sure that we don’t put a pipe 10

down one day and they come along and replace the severed pipe the

very next day. And there's a good cartoon I’m sure to be had if that

occurs.

So, we are working quite hard - - - 15

CHAIRPERSON: And I bet your bottom dollar it does.

MS JONES: Yes, well, like we have had the Friday worker putting stuff down

from Chorus and the Sunday morning very early the different 20

subcontractor coming and digging up the same area.

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I mean it’s funny you say that, because prior to

getting into heavy civil infrastructure, I used to marvel at that. But now

that you’re in it you see how often it happens for very good reasons. 25

So for instance, as an example, just directly outside the entrance to the

Basin Reserve, there’s a water main. Now we will need to take up and

shift that water main and in shifting that water main we will be talking

to Capacity about whether they would like to increase the size of it in 30

the way through.

When we go to lay it, some of that is in the carriageway, so one option

is to dig the trench, which is one activity if you like, and make sure

that’s in the right direction at the right level. And then fill it and 35

temporarily seal across the top of it before we come back and put the

pipe in.

The other option is metal plates, which are notorious for banging and

clanking as cars go across them. So, for some of the best reasons in the 40

world you end up literally appearing to dig the same hole three times.

MS JONES: Now given that this is likely to be happening with a range of

areas and that local people are going to be saying, who’s doing this,

who do I contact? To what extent would the alliance be able to provide 45

some kind of coordination of communications? Or would they be

Page 7304


saying no, it’s this person? I mean how would that be able to be

handled in the best way for the local people?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and that's a real problem, I can fully appreciate that

already. We have had a number of instances where we have answered 5

calls about whether or not we have been working at a particular

location or a particular time.

And on a State Highway or a road network where you have 12 different

utility providers plus two different road controlling authorities and 10

probably in the order of 37 different contractors involved in various

components, it’s very hard to keep track.

That said, we are, as I said, working quite closely with them and we

will endeavour to make sure that we know what they are doing and 15

they know what we are doing. So at the very least we can point people

in the right direction. Just saying it’s not us sometimes doesn’t help.

And we will obviously know who the people are who are dealing with

various aspects so. 20

MS JONES: And, presumably, each of these works that is happening will

have had some level of consent and approval for it to happen?

MR KENDERDINE: There’s quite a lot in the Wellington District Plan and 25

Mr Daysh may be able speak on this later, but permitted activities

within the road corridor, so they may not actually need consent. The

only consent you would have is the road controlling authority to open

the road up or to shut parts of the road.

30

MS JONES: So as a local resident, I am hearing you say that effectively, if

these permitted activities can happen, anybody could be digging up the

road and I wouldn’t know who they are? Except for asking them?

I’m sorry, I’m not sort of criticising you, I’m just sort of saying that, I 35

was going to say that, you know, Wellington City Council or a District

Council or a Regional Council could help, but it doesn’t sound as if

they would be in a better situation either.

[2.40 pm] 40

MR KENDERDINE: Well, they would know if they were involved in the

Road Controlling Authority because they would have given permission

for that activity to occur. So that would, most of them, have a plan that

is submitted at that time anyway which has contact people, and the 45

duration of work and the like.

Page 7305


MS JONES: So, when the project is continuing would there be any form of a

communications’ agreement with Wellington City Council or the like

for how information could be shared?

5

MR KENDERDINE: I guess we would look to do that, I am not sure if it

would be formalised but we would definitely look to make sure that we

both have a clear picture of each other’s activities.

MS JONES: I mean, I am old fashioned, I like Memorandum of 10

Understanding. I like it being sort of out there so people know where to

go and see things and I am also tech savvy enough to think, this should

all go on a website so that I can look it up. And those are just two of the

options that I would see but it is again, how can we make it more

information secure for people who are going to be affected. 15

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I appreciate that.

MS JONES: Okay, so you are aware of the issue but you have not got solution

at this stage, is that what you are saying? 20


MS JONES: Okay. Um, another area that is going to be affected by this is bus

services, um, particularly those say for Kent and Cambridge Terraces. 25

So, how will bus users be advised of information? Is this something

that you would be relying on the bus company to do or what would be

the mechanism?

MR KENDERDINE: To be fair, we have not got into the detail of all of that 30

but we have been talking to the various bus companies already. There

is a, obviously, a strong structure around the Construction Traffic

Management Plan, a site specific Temporary Traffic Management

Plans around exactly all of that. Who communicates what to whom,

when and how? 35

So, our intention would be and as I was talking earlier, of making some

of these changes for the long term so that people do not have to go one

day to a bus stop here, the next day the bus stops down there, three

days later the bus stops back again. You know, our intention is to put 40

these things in place so that when we do communicate them we have

got lead into the communication and that when they are moved or

something changes that it changes long enough for people’s patterns to

change before it moves back if that makes sense.

45

MS JONES: Yes, absolutely.

Page 7306


MR KENDERDINE: That there is not continual change on a daily basis.

MS JONES: Because at the moment one of the services, you may be aware it

is provided, is identifying the location of bus stops for people who are 5

blind or vision impaired. And every time that these are changed there

are people like I helped a chap just last week, you know, white cane

and all the rest of it. He knows where the bus stop used to be but it had

moved. So it is like that awareness of accessibility issues for people

needs to more than just those who are walking without a push chair, 10

without a cane.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes. So, we also when we do make changes we populate

the area with what we call the “ask me people” which are literally high

visibility vests with ask me written on the back of it. 15

MS JONES: For somebody who is blind that does not really help.

MR KENDERDINE: No, but they will go and obviously see the person and

talk to them. 20

MS JONES: All right.

MR KENDERDINE: So, I am not expecting people to understand who they

are. Their purpose is interact with everyone on the footpath or everyone 25

around. Yes.

MS JONES: Okay, which is very helpful and as I said before it is good to

know that has been thought about but we want to know what it is

because that gives a bit of security. Just another minor point of 30

clarification on a different topic, 3.2 about the project talks about some

of the ancillary activities that would happen. On one of them it

mentions is vegetation removal. Could you talk me through which

vegetation is being removed?

[2.45 pm] 35

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I guess anywhere that potentially is being impacted

upon by the construction works and I am just going through the staging

diagrams. It could be as little as the grass is in somewhat bedraggled

grasses in the front of Regional Wines and Spirits through to the 40

slightly more intensively planted area directly outside the northern

entrance to the Basin Reserve.

So, as a rule we do not tend to remove vegetation until we have to

because either we are putting a roadway underneath it or there is 45

services going through area or in the case of the green area on the

Page 7307


staging plan in front of you which is stage one, there are some grasses

and trees within the St Joseph’s car park I understand which would be

removed to enable the building to be removed into the car park to be

reinstated.

5

MS JONES: DC19 in the conditions, just a brief one, refers to native fauna

and prior to construction a lizard salvage survey should be undertaken

in all potential habitats immediately before they are removed.


MS JONES: Was there a similar condition for the Memorial Park Project?

MR KENDERDINE: Not that I am aware of, no.

15

MS JONES: Right. The reason why I asked specifically about that is that there

were native lizard populations in that area immediately around the area

of the crèche, and of course, they have been cleared and their

vegetation is totally gone. So, I am a little sceptical about, you know,

shutting the door after the horse has bolted type of approach being 20

taken. But I do not know whether the conditions, you cannot do

anything about what is already gone but - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Sorry, our intention would be if that may be some help is

obviously those sorts of activities would be happening in stage zero 25

before any physical work has happened.

MS JONES: But the movement of the crèche is a physical work, this has

already started happening, hasn’t it?

30

MR KENDERDINE: I think there was a long and lengthy debate yesterday

about the relocation of the crèche as being part of the National War

Memorial Park Act, that work is underway, I need to get the park

finished.

35

MS JONES: Except it was not needed to be moved.

MR KENDERDINE: I guess I am looking to the Board to not want to go there

again but we can if you would like.

40

MS JONES: Right, well, I was just tabling that issue. That I see on the one

hand, putting the conditions in as being well and good but on the other

hand I compare it to what I have seen happen so I have concerns about

where the theory and the practice do not match up and what remedies if

any there would be. Now, that is just a minor example and it may not 45

make any difference.

Page 7308


MR KENDERDINE: But I do not think there is a condition to that as part of

the Act.

MS JONES: No. 5

MR KENDERDINE: So, of the National War Memorial Park, so the

supposition that something was not in the Act that will then happen

differently, I think, is incorrect if I may say so. If it is part of this

decision then I think you can have some confidence that it will occur. 10

MS JONES: But it is just that that meshing or to say, vegetation removal with

another area surveying for fauna I have not seen lizards anywhere also

in the area but I am not a herpetologist.

15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that condition reflects a requirement by the

ecologists and it was discussed at some length in their evidence.

MR JONES: Yes, because I am just sad because I used to enjoy seeing them

there and just the final, I think it is the final topic I have got, on 20

something quite different. We heard from Mr Brabhaharan on the

design specifications and the strength of the bridge structure which

sounds as if it would last forever. But he did refer to the greater

likelihood that in the event of a significant earthquake there would be

other nearby structures like for example, the portal to the Mount 25

Victoria Tunnel was far more likely to collapse. Does the risk planning

for this project have consideration of what next if, for example, traffic

cannot go into the Mount Victoria Tunnel because it has been

collapsed?

30

MR KENDERDINE: I am sorry but that is outside my area of expertise.

MS JONES: So, your risk planning does not go that far?

MR KENDERDINE: I am just saying that my expertise does not stretch to the 35

seismic assessment of the Mount Victoria Tunnel. Clearly there is the

need to be aware of the drivers of the hospital for instance above the

project and that is a very clear driver for us in terms of any traffic

management planning that we do, which is that they will need to get in

and out, there is a central fire station nearby, we have been dealing with 40

the fact that we have the bomb squad based in the middle of the

National War Memorial Park at the moment.

Page 7309


[2.50 pm]

So it is not unusual to have to deal with that, but in terms of Mount

Victoria tunnel I would be straying outside my field to talk about that.

5

MS JONES: But just in general terms, if there were other eventualities that

meant that the connectedness of the road was disrupted then would

there be – I mean, it would make to me common sense to down tools

until things were evaluated, but I can’t say that that would be

guaranteed. 10

MR KENDERDINE: Oh, okay, slightly different then. One of the things, I

guess, I have been involved with, was 3,500 earthquakes in

Christchurch and being involved with the establishment of the Stronger

Christchurch Infrastructure Rebuild Team as well as the CERA 15

Infrastructure Group establishment. So I have taken the role of looking

after the bunch of people under my control quite seriously, but they

also happened to have all the skills necessary to help get people out of

buildings or lift things off other people, if in fact there is an event such

as that. So we have food and water for our staff to either get home or to 20

be based at the office doing whatever is needed to be done.

MS JONES: Yes, I am thinking of the time frame between – so if there was a

significant event that meant that the flyover would not be able to serve

as part of the national highway because of damage to other parts of the 25

structure, whether that would be something that would for a period of

months sort of mean that there would be a diversion elsewhere while

we are doing things. You know, it is like, what awareness is there

locally of other priorities?

30

MR KENDERDINE: I think we probably don’t - - -

MS JONES: It is probably outside the scope, but - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I am going to be honest, I mean I know that is - - - 35

CHAIRPERSON: I think there would be a national emergency and the

Government would take over and put someone in to do all this. I do not

think it would be this gentleman’s - - -

40

MS JONES: It may become so. Just as, sort of, checking on that sort of –

thank you, your Honour, that is the end of my questions, although, as I

would say, you know, looking to see what comes out of the proposals.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Jones. Re-examination? 45

Page 7310


MR CAMERON: Ms Woods is here, sir, isn’t she?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

MR CAMERON: There is someone else, who - - - 5

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, there is someone else wanting to cross-examine?

MR CAMERON: I am sorry, yes, I do.

10

CHAIRPERSON: No.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CAMERON [2.52 pm]

MR CAMERON: Now just in re-examination please, Mr Kenderdine, you 15

were asked a number of questions yesterday by Mr Milne regarding

earthworks and the cost of earthworks. How significant for the cost for

item (ph 3.11) in developing the cost estimate is the earthworks volume

issue?

20

MR KENDERDINE: I think as I mentioned to Mr Milne yesterday, Mr

Brabhaharan pointed out that his understanding of the cost estimate for

Option X did not allow for the type of piling that we would now know

that we would need to do, if we were to do Option X.

25

That would be – I wonder if I put it like this – a cube of dirt to

somewhere between $40 to a $100 a cubic metre, and a pile is in the

order of $30,000 and there are 59 piles just in this short section of the

trench leading out of the National War Memorial Park underpass at the

cost of some hundreds of thousands. I guess the volume of earthworks’ 30

excavation is of note, but the need for piling is a lot more expensive.

MR CAMERON: So that is one of the variables relevant, obviously, the

extent of piling is a variable relevant to cost, are there other significant

variables compared to earthworks which are more significant, less 35

significant or what is the position in relation to variables generally in

terms of cost?

[2.55 pm]

40

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I think, one of the challenges for any of these

projects around the Basin Reserve is the temporary traffic management,

for instance, which is a significant expenditure and challenge. And

either Option X or Option F both have quite challenging structures to

keep the traffic flowing smoothly while you are building it, but also to 45

Page 7311


be able to then transfer it on to the new alignments simply and

effectively. So that is a reasonably large variable.

The nature of the soil, so if it is contaminated, it is quite a lot more

expensive to remove and dispose of, although, to be fair, that only 5

tends to happen in the top surface (INDISTINCT 00.00.55) not at

depth. And obviously, as we talked about the geological conditions and

the variability thereof can have a significant effect.

MR CAMERON: And so if we were comparing, for example, cost estimates 10

for an option evaluation process relevant to Option X and Option A, for

example, is earthworks a significant factor or not in the context of cost

comparison?

MR KENDERDINE: The variance – and I am just trying to recall here – the 15

variance in earthworks and we were talking 88,000, from what I

understand, removing the nominal 45,000 that was part of the National

War Memorial underpass project. So we are talking roughly 40,000,

and I think the figures yesterday were 19,500. So quickly doing the

maths that is 80,000 out of projects that are measured in tens of 20

millions. So yes, it all helps, any reduction in volume or cost helps, but

whether or not we are talking of a reduction of 20,000 cubic metres in

the over-all scheme of things, is reasonably insignificant.

MR CAMERON: And in terms of fire and life safety considerations, what is 25

the position concerning that issue in relation to cost, first?

MR KENDERDINE: Well, cost, fire and life safety is a potentially huge

variable in cost. If we – and it goes to all matters – so that if you have

to put in, and I believe, Option F, if we take that as an example, that is 30

a quite a long – not a long tunnel in international standards – but it is

400 and something metres long, you would need a separate egress for

pedestrians, which means your trench and structure is that much wider,

which means much more piles to keep that area under the grounds in

the event of an earthquake. You would definitely need smoke extract 35

and air change systems. You would need deluge systems and those are

all measured in millions.

So the challenge with all of those, and as we have discovered, is

actually getting agreement on your fire engineering brief with all of the 40

statutory authorities, because there is no “one size fits all”. So it is not a

matter of just saying “Well, I will do this, and that will solve the

problem” – it may not solve the problem. That if the fire engineering

brief is not signed off, both by the safety and the statutory authorities,

you will need to do what is required, so I guess the suggestion 45

yesterday that we were just going to cut some slots in the roof,

Page 7312


potentially, or open it up as a trench would solve all of those problems,

again, that is a statement I would make advisedly because I wouldn’t be

sure of that until I had done quite a lot of work with fire engineers and

they are notoriously a challenging bunch to work with.

5

MR CAMERON: And just to go back to the cost of, let’s just say, the

difference between 20,000 cubic metres, sorry, the costs per cubic

metre – I am sorry, I don’t have a note put in front of me and I am just

trying to deal with it. The cost of 20,000 cubic metres less earth to

remove than that calculated by Opus on the one hand and the 10

architecture centre on the other, to cut to the chase, in dollar terms, is

that in the order of, what?

[3.00 pm]

15

MR KENDERDINE: Well the volume, I think, I forget what rate they used –

either groups used. So I would use our extraction rate which was in the

order of $40 to $45 a cube, so 20,000 cubes that is $800,000.

MR CAMERON: Thank you, so that is the context for the issue? 20

MR KENDERDINE: As I understand, the discussion around the cross-section

put to me yesterday.

MR CAMERON: Now, that cross-section that was put to you yesterday, is 25

that this document that I am about to show you?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I believe it is, yes.

MR CAMERON: And just for the record, and to ensure that nobody can be 30

concerned about the record, but without the NZTA accepting the utility

or otherwise of that drawing which has been prepared by the

architecture centre I think, has it not?

MR KENDERDINE: I understand so, yes. 35

MR CAMERON: So without accepting its contents, but for the record, can

that please be produced as Kenderdine 03, please.

EXHIBIT KENDERDINE.3 40

MR KENDERDINE: I am sure all will be revealed.

MR CAMERON: All has been, Mr Kenderdine (INDISTINCT 2.08). Now, I

do want to briefly just go back to the crèche issue with you, please. Can 45

you please put up annexure F, please, on the screen? Thank you.

Page 7313


Now, just so that we understand the setting in which the crèche will be

located within the National War Memorial park, we can see where the

crèche is to be relocated to, we have discussed the boundary – new

boundary of the Memorial Park yesterday. And so in relation to setting, 5

is that described on pages 10 and 11 of annexure C, document 2 of your

summary of evidence that you filed and discussed yesterday?

MR KENDERDINE: Just so I am clear, you are talking the - - -

10

MR CAMERON: The studio-specific document.

MR KENDERDINE: Studio-specific document?

MR CAMERON: Yes. 15

MR KENDERDINE: That refers directly to the area around the crèche in its

new location.

MR CAMERON: Right, so that is the proposed new – 2.8.1 of that document, 20

it describes the proposed new location and the landscaping, and then

there is a more detailed description that follows, which has been written

by Mr Hardwick-Smith and incorporated directly into the document.


MR CAMERON: And is it your understanding that that description reflects

the approach that is to be taken in the construction of the park, in

relation to this issue?

30


MR CAMERON: Thank you. Now, without wishing to transgress in any way,

can we please turn to the purpose of the Act which is section 3?

35

[3.05 pm]

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we move on, could we go the proposed new

location and landscaping, if you look at the second paragraph under

281, it says the proposed new location and landscaping connects with 40

the border landscape and streetscape works associated with the Basin

Bridge and War Memorial Park.

MR CAMERON: Yes.

45

Page 7314


CHAIRPERSON: And then it says, at the top of page 11, I have read all this

last night. ‘In its new location, the crèche fronts Buckle Street just west

of the bridge landing.’

MR CAMERON: Yes. 5

CHAIRPERSON: So it has obviously been designed to fit in with the work.

MR CAMERON: Well, perhaps Mr Kenderdine can comment further on that.

10

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do not know whether he can. He is the project

manager for the construction of this.

MR CAMERON: All right, I think it is a point I am trying to develop here

more generally. 15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is what that says.

MR CAMERON: I know, I understand, yes.

20

CHAIRPERSON: And the point is, and the relevance of it is, if it was

designed for the purposes of the bridge then the adverse effects could

well be consequential, the adverse effects arising from the project. And

that is the issue.

25

MR CAMERON: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think that is why Mr Milne is pushing it. And I want

to be fair and give you an opportunity, otherwise we have to make an

inference from the documents we have and that have been presented. 30

Now, that makes it quite clear that the crèche has been moved so as its

new location is tied in with the Basin Bridge and War Memorial Park

projects.

MR CAMERON: I fully appreciate the point. 35

CHAIRPERSON: So I am making it now to give you an opportunity to

address it.

MR CAMERON: Right. 40

CHAIRPERSON: Remembering of course, that whoever negotiated with the

Government or whatever it was, is not giving evidence before us, and

this gentleman was not involved in that.

45

Page 7315


MR CAMERON: In terms of the design of the park, has that design had

regard to – Well, what has that design had regard to in the context that

other matters under consideration such as matters before this board?

MR KENDERDINE: There are a number of different aspects to that particular 5

question, both large and small scale. And I guess, at the large scale, this

project has been – the National War Memorial Park project, has been to

all extents and purposes accelerated by the act to enable the park as

envisaged and as shown on the drawing, to be completed in time.

Doing that, we have had to have cognisance of a number of things. And 10

one of those is the preferred option of NZTA to build the bridge at

some stage in the future. So in an ideal world it would all align. It has

not, and possibly because of that, some of these questions have arisen.

We have also had to have cognisance of the fact that this project may

not go ahead at all. This project being the Basin Reserve Bridge, 15

because as I understand it, if significant changes proposed, i.e. an at-

grade solution, then NZTA would have to reconsider. So we have taken

the, I guess, the lead from the likes of Historic Places Trust and a

number of things – A number of organisations like that, Wellington

City Council and their heritage people, as to, we might just have to 20

leave that area safe and walk away. And that partly comes to, for

instance, the layout of the tunnel. So that has got to meet Sussex Street

at-grade for an indeterminate period of time for Sussex Street to

operate whether or not the bridge goes ahead. That took people quite a

long time to get sorted out so that it was safe in the long term. 25

[3.10 pm]

MR CAMERON: You are talking about the Crèche being safe in the long

term? 30

MR KENDERDINE: Safe, but also the underpass so the Crèche is safe, the

underpass safe. When we leave we have got to leave it because we

might be leaving it as it is sort of finished. We have had to have regard

to a number of things. Another thing that is going on is the discussion 35

as to the long term function and use of the Museum so there are a

number of proposals currently being discussed as to what happens with

the museum and Massey and its expansions plans which we have had to

have cognisance of in terms of the layout of the Park.

40

The taking into consideration the fact that the Basin Reserve bridge is

the preferred option of NZTA is obviously a very obvious thing, but

there are a number of other items associated with the development of a

park which are very similar. During my lifetime with the project the

park has grown into the building that we now use as our office at the 45

other end of the Park on Taranaki Street.

Page 7316


As I understand it that foreshadowed by the increase of the dotted blue

line around into Martin Square from Taranaki Street so the fact that this

is a live, looking backwards now into what was being sorted in the days

and minutes prior to the signing of the Act is quite challenging because 5

of all these things that are going on at the same time.

Down to the minute which is we have to look, we have taken

cognisance of the future aspirations for capacity underground and the

same with the Wellington Electricity Company. None of this can quite 10

happen without reference to these items around and we have had to do

of course through the middle.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think there is any criticism of NZTA for doing

what they did. That is not the point or for the government of doing 15

what it did. What the government has done is done and it is not for us

to criticise what they have done or for anyone else for that matter, nor

is it necessarily critical of us to say well you have got a preferred

project, we are designing this millions of dollars let’s fit it in, in the

hope that we get consent. 20

There is nothing wrong with that, the issue is simply this, was it done

to enable the bridge if it gets consent to go there and if that is the

reason then that is the reason the crèche was shifted and it could have

legal and effects on what we take into account in the weighing process 25

is to the adverse effects arising out of the project. It is as simple as

that.

MR CAMERON: To some degree it becomes a matter of submission.

30

CHAIRPERSON: Of course it can be and it mainly becomes a matter of

submission because it is a legal question, it is a difficult legal question

but we have got to get our facts straight and I think that Mr Kenderdine

has really confirmed that yes it is one of the matters they have to take

into account so where we go from there is a matter of submission. 35

It has become a mountain rather than I was going to say a molehill, it

might be more than a molehill.

MR CAMERON: We are dealing with a number of letters. 40

CHAIRPERSON: I think the whole thing has grown out of proportion that is

all I am trying to say. Let us keep it simple and direct.

MR CAMERON: And direct, yes. 45

Page 7317


CHAIRPERSON: We do not want obfuscation to cloud it.

MR CAMERON: No, I am not sure it’s multifactorial and I think that is the

issue, well that is the submission is it not? If I can ask one further

question? 5

CHAIRPERSON: As a matter of fairness I am trying to give you my thinking

on the matter at this stage subject to what I have to hear from yourself

and from other lawyers later on, but we need to get our foundations

correct in where we stand. 10

[3.15 pm]

MR CAMERON: To assist, to answer that question directly and this was the

next, I am rather hoping this question assists having regard to the 15

context that is described within the Park for and within which this

building is to be relocated, what would the position have been if the

building had remained where it is in the context of the purpose of the

legislation.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are not really interested in the purpose of the

legislation we are interested in the project. For the purposes of the

project how would it affect it, that is the question is it not?

MR CAMERON: No. 25

CHAIRPERSON: If the crèche stayed where it was would it affect this

project?

MR CAMERON: If the crèche had stayed, well my question is - - - 30

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us not what I, I do not think that is going to help us

but you put it.

MR CAMERON: If the crèche, I am going to do both sir to just finish it. If 35

the crèche had stayed where it was or where it is.

MR KENDERDINE: Where it was strictly speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been fascinated over the last two days. 40

MR CAMERON: It is going to take a while sir. If the crèche had remained in

its location what were the implications of that to the concept of the

construction of a National War Memorial Park?

45

Page 7318


MR KENDERDINE: I guess that is quite a wide ranging question. What I

read I guess in my role is a number of references to the nature of the

heritage precinct, the ongoing drive for the Minister of Culture and

Heritage to create a museum precinct within the area and the awareness

that we are rapidly losing some of that heritage around what is planning 5

heritage.

I mean the park is planning heritage hopefully for tomorrow so it

becomes a significant place in the landscape and mindscape of New

Zealanders. Within that context having that particular building left out 10

if you like would be unfortunate and I guess I can only comment to

what Alison Dangerfield said which is in her mind that the

strengthening and improvement of the building and the integration with

the park is of benefit. Being mindful of the fact that in an ideal world

you would leave heritage exactly where it was. 15

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence from the landscape architects who

have said that it could have been incorporated into the park where it is

now and that is the landscape evidence I think all of them agreed on

that. 20

MR CAMERON: If the Basin Bridge project was not approved and the crèche

was not moved what would the consequence be for the crèche?

MR KENDERDINE: My understanding is that the area to the east of Sussex 25

Street between there and Cambridge Terrace would be left as it is and

at some stage in the future decisions as to its function, use or otherwise

would be made by the landowner NZTA and the availability of

funding. I would strongly suspect it would be sold, so nothing would

happen to the crèche I guess is the answer. 30

[3.20 pm]

MR CAMERON: In terms of the last question, in the interests of putting all

issues squarely. What would the consequence be of leaving the crèche 35

in its current location, to the Basin Bridge project?

MR KENDERDINE: So for the proposed Basin Bridge project, it would have

to be relocated in some way, shape, or form.

40

MR CAMERON: I think that puts the issues about as squarely as I can, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you for that. I think the rest is legal

submission and we will no doubt get that the next week and the

following week. 45

Page 7319


MR CAMERON: Well, I just do not want to leave the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: No, well I just wanted to nail them down myself that is all.

It seemed to me the whole thing was getting blown out of proportion. I

wanted to get it kept in perspective and I wanted the factual matrix 5

clearly set out.

MR CAMERON: Sir, I do not think it is - - -

MR BAINES: Can I ask one more question? 10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BAINES: Going back to the diagram, in fact, the diagram you have got

there, which is essentially the way you wish to leave it at least on the 15

road layout on August this year, am I correct?

MR KENDERDINE: Sorry? That one might be easier.

MR BAINES: You were saying how in August this year, now you have to 20

reconnect so that people can start using the underpass and so-on.


MR BAINES: That is that diagram. That has two lanes going left and two 25

lanes going right does it not?

MR KENDERDINE: It does.

MR BAINES: And if the crèche had stayed in its current position, or in the 30

position that it was last Monday, that layout would still be feasible or

not?

MR KENDERDINE: That layout would still be feasible, yes. I guess I have to

caveat with that the same caveat that I put yesterday. 35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: As on what we now know. So we always mix the

hypothetical with the actual. 40

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, absolutely.

MR KENDERDINE: Which is – the hypothetical situation is that possibly

not. The actual situation is yes. 45

Page 7320


CHAIRPERSON: And I think we can forget about the plans because it is

quite clear from the Act that the plan, figure 1 and figure 2 and figure 3

in the act are indicative only.

MR CAMERON: Yes, sir. 5

CHAIRPERSON: And so therefore, there is the fact that the crèche is outside

the plans is irrelevant. And in fact, there is no reason why they could

not have extended the War Memorial to include the crèche in its

present position. They could have done it under the Act as well, 10

because it is within the construction area.

MR CAMERON: It is, but I am going to ask Mr Kenderdine, what would the

implications of that be to the design of the Terraces?

15

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is a landscaping question is it not?

MR CAMERON: Mr Kenderdine did go down there, and I went yesterday in

the park and I am sure it could be redesigned.

20

MR KENDERDINE: Well, there is quite a level difference and that, not being

a landscape architect but having some interest in architecture that

would be challenging. And the Terraces are designed to be used by

people sat on walls, so there is a level distinction that would be

changed significantly by that. 25

MR CAMERON: Now, in the context of what we are discussing, I will try

and come at it from this way.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still going on about this crèche? 30

MR CAMERON: I am just trying to – There is one factor here that I am

trying to get to and I am not succeeding. The date that the designation

or the date of the act – Sorry. The date that the Act ceases to have

effect is what? 35

MR KENDERDINE: I should know that off the top of my head, but it is a

month or two after the designation or the resource consent. So MCH’s

resource consent, their ability to create things and the powers under the

Act disappear two months after the park design. 40

MR CAMERON: Yes, now, if the Basin Bridge project were to be approved -

- -

Page 7321


[3.25 pm]

MR CAMERON: - - - Given the date on which the powers of MCH lapse and

the designation lapse, could or would the crèche and could the crèche

necessarily be relocated to the position - - - 5

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is a legal – That is a planning question and a legal

question.

MR CAMERON: All right, I accept that sir. Thank you, your Honour. 10

CHAIRPERSON: The question of whether a resource consent is required, and

if so, what type of consent it is, and I think we had heard some

evidence. Yes, you have given some evidence on that, that it would be

a restricted discretionary activity if I recall. So it could be. 15

MR CAMERON: Well - - -

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, it would be unlikely for it not to be if it was a

restricted discretionary activity. 20

MR CAMERON: Well, it is a park, it is a National War Memorial Park.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just saying, I am not arguing with you, I am saying it

is a legal question, we do not need this gentleman to - - - 25

MR CAMERON: No, I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it would be going outside the ambit of his

expertise and it is a legal question which we do not need to debate 30

because it is not before us.

MR CAMERON: Yes, I accept that. I accept that, but there is a factual matter

that I think underpins that point.

35

MR MCMAHON: You can possibly make that point in submissions, Mr

Cameron.

MR CAMERON: Yes.

40

MR MCMAHON: I have a question of clarification to the witness because I

am a little bit confused.

MR CAMERON: As you were trying to clarify it, it might assist.

45

Page 7322


MR MCMAHON: Mr Kenderdine, yesterday in answers to some questions

from Mr Milne on this matter, you took us back to the beginning of the

project and talked about some uncertainties regarding, I think, you

started off by saying you were not aware of the 130-year-old storm

water pipes at that stage. 5

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR MCMAHON: You said that there were options of digging a large trench

to connect to Sussex Street and that temporary traffic could have gone 10

on to the crèche site. I jotted them down as unknowns at the time that

the project was in its inception.


15

MR MCMAHON: Are you resiling from those matters now?

MR KENDERDINE: No, no, not at all, not at all. That is what I was

mentioning in terms of the actual today versus the hypothetical when

we started. And I have struggled to work through with NZTA’s legal 20

people because the principle that what we see today and what we are

doing today was fully clear only 18 months ago, is not correct. There

was a huge degree of uncertainty over what was able to be achieved

and in what timeframe, except for the fact that the park had to be built.

So in thinking through that, my assumption is that people looking at the 25

environment of the project and some of the powers under the Act,

which are really quite something, took it in mind that they were not

sure of how that was going to affect everything, and that therefore - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you are speculating are you not? 30

MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely, your Honour, and I also make no matter of

that. But I was not speculating about the fact that when we first looked

at the construction of the underpass, the relocation of the Newtown

sewer to an area under where the crèche is at a very low level, was 35

quite a possibility, where the crèche is going to end up, and that the

trench that that would require may have had an impact on the side of

the crèche. So all I am using that example for is just to show the level

of uncertainty at the start of the project. And that now when I say, ‘No,

nothing needs to move for the crèche’, I am saying that because that is 40

now what I know. Whereas then, I would not have said the same thing.

MR MCMAHON: I think I understand, thank you.

MR CAMERON: I think I am going to get into deep trouble if I try and take 45

this any further.

Page 7323


CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is afternoon tea time anyway.

MR CAMERON: Oh, can I have a cup of tea on it then, sir, as I have got one

question I am really troubled by and I want to be fair about the way I 5

put it. Thank you.

ADJOURNED [3.30 pm]

RESUMED [3.45 pm] 10

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cameron?

MR CAMERON: Your Honour and I am obliged to the board and I hope I

have not untried your patience in the last 10 minutes or so. 15

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cameron. I thought you were going to sit

down.

MR CAMERON: On the crèche issue. No, I just have one further series of 20

questions. Mr Kenderdine, if Option X had been the preferred option,

would the approach to the construction of the park and therefore

necessary the underpass have been any different to that taken?

MR KENDERDINE: The other night I asked my assembled team exactly that 25

question and the answer that we came up with was probably not.

Because of the level of extra investment that would be required to

enable the underpass to operate safely for the interim period.

MR CAMERON: Has that interim period been? 30

MR KENDERDINE: Being between when we have got to get the traffic

through there in, you know, September this year. September, October

and any stage in the future when a project or another project gets

approved over in the Basin Reserve. 35

MR CAMERON: All right. And in terms of the design freeze that was

discussed with Mr Milne yesterday. Did the need for that design freeze

or the fact of that design freeze having regard to the underpass for the

considerations relevant to the underpass generally? Did that relate to 40

meeting the deadline for construction of the park or cost or contractual

issues or what?

MR KENDERDINE: The predominant reason for the design freeze in July

2012 which I think is the one you are referring to, which to be fair is 45

the design freeze by Opus at that stage, was to draw a line in the sand,

Page 7324


if you will excuse the expression, for the commercial process or the

tendering process that was going on at the time. So that two teams

would be given that information and tested against it and that the

successful team would then proceed and develop their own solution.

5

MR CAMERON: And so it was a design freeze for tendering purposes?

[3.50 pm]


MR CAMERON: And in terms of the ability to subsequently vary the design

or alter that design, change it, did it have any relevance to that?

MR KENDERDINE: Well, I think, as I mention in my evidence, it was frozen 15

in concept and I used that word in the full sense of it in terms of the

development of the design, because as we spoke about it yesterday,

there is a large brick sewer in the middle of that trench that wasn’t

recognised in that frozen design that we had to work around.

20

So yes, the general orientation is more or less the same, but the devil

with a lot of these things is in the detail.

MR CAMERON: So in terms of the ability to vary or change that design, will

that merely be a contractual issue based on recommendations and 25

consideration of detailed design at that point, or what?

MR KENDERDINE: It comes back to this need to get the park open and yes,

we could have varied that, exactly at what point we could have stopped

varying it or adopt another solution, I couldn’t tell you right now 30

without knowing what the option was, but we went through a long

process through to the – you know, the issue of our refined design in

February 2013, for instance, after that normal freeze, so, yes.

MR CAMERON: So what – just so we are all clear – when was what? The 35

direct question in relation to that is when was the final outcome and

price struck?

MR KENDERDINE: March 2013.

40

MR CAMERON: Right. If the agency had decided to progress Option X as its

preferred option, could that be accommodated under the alliance

contracting model?


Page 7325


MR CAMERON: And that, sir, is my last question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now, who is going to go first? Mr McMahan?

MR CAMERON: Oh, I am sorry, I have been asked to produce a plan and I 5

do so with your Honour’s leave, with the board’s leave, and if I could

ask you, please to have a look at this plan, Mr Kenderdine? Is that plan

a plan of the - - -

CHAIRPERSON: We will wait until we have it. Just that we know what you 10

are talking about.

MR CAMERON: I am sorry, I am going back to a former life, I am sorry. It

must be the product of four months, I think, and I apologise to the

board. 15

Now that plan diagrammatically or schematically sets out the

implications of the realignment of the shared path to the extent we

discussed earlier?

20

MR KENDERDINE: It does, yes, that is correct.

MR CAMERON: And would you now, please, produce that as Kenderdine 4?

EXHIBIT KENDERDINE 04 PLAN 25

MR……….: I am happy to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Kenderdine 02?

30

MR BAINES: Supplementary evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that doesn’t need – oh, that one, yes.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, the artwork, with the table, chicken scratchings, I 35

think I referred to.

MR CAMERON: Now just so the board is very clear, it will be the agency’s

submission that that new alignment is the alignment it prepares (ph

5.02). 40

Page 7326


[3.55 pm]

CHAIRPERSON: Does that need a change to the application?

MR CAMERON: No, I don’t believe it does require any change in terms of 5

scope.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I mean, I am not worried about scope, I am worried

about certainty.

10

MR CAMERON: No, I don’t think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, generally, in accordance with the application

documents, you produce that document which shows a variation, but

there is nothing in the application documents to show that that 15

document is the one that is to be followed, think about it. And get Ms

Wedde to think about it.

MR CAMERON: I will think about it. Thank you, sir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr McMahon?

MR McMAHON: Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, Mr Kenderdine. I have

been marking out your supplementary evidence as you have gone along

and I have five matters that I was going to put to you. And I think the 25

majority of them might have been answered, but just bear with me, I

will just go through them.

Yes, paragraph 4.1 on your concise summary.

30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR McMAHON: And here you deal with the working hours and we had the

discussion yesterday about what they might be, 6.00 am to 8.00 pm

typically, you have listed there. Two questions there. Firstly, I thought I 35

saw 6.30 am on a previous document; it might as well have been the

conditions in the legislation.

MR KENDERDINE: I guess it is worth pointing out that these are potentially

different to the noise boundaries and that is a conscious decision, 40

because the noise boundaries often get perceived as your start and stop

times. So what this is talking about is – you would expect that the tide

of Hi-Vis vested, hard-hatted people to start moving around at this

time, but that would not necessarily mean a change to those noise

boundaries. 45

Page 7327


MR McMAHON: Okay. And the point there is that whilst they might the

typical working hours, there is no condition volunteering those

restrictions is there?

MR KENDERDINE: No, insomuch as we still have to work through the 5

construction noise and vibration management plan and the certification

are the same.

MR McMAHON: Yes. And my understanding of that plan and its reference to

the New Zealand Construction Standard 6803 is that in theory that 10

allows 24 hour operation albeit that in the later hours the levels on

noise control are more stringent. And is that your understanding?

MR KENDERDINE: That is my understanding, yes.

15

MR McMAHON: I noticed that released with the designation on the park

proposal in the Act, that there was some self-certification of the

Construction Environmental Management Plan.

MR KENDERDINE: I don’t think it is - - - 20

MR McMAHON: Certification by an approved person or persons.

MR KENDERDINE: Which we have taken to be independent.

25

MR McMAHON: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR McMAHON: Yes, as opposed to any consent authority? 30


MR McMAHON: As far as I have been able to ascertain there is a different

approach here, the district council or the regional council will be the 35

certifying body, is that correct?


MR McMAHON: Now just on that page also, further up at 3.5 you talk about 40

the length of the construction period being approximately 30 months

and that includes enabling works, you say. Does it include any

decommissioning works in that 30-month period? Or is that over and

above?

45

Page 7328


MR KENDERDINE: Decommissioning in terms of our exit from the site is

included in those 30 months. There is a defect period of variable –

depending on which item you are talking about – which goes on

beyond that, but to all intents and purposes is covered by the road

corridor and permitted activities in the road corridor and those normal 5

operations.

[4.00 pm]

MR MCMAHON: Yes, I was not so much talking about the defects liability 10

period, more the period for exiting the site with your equipment and

that sort of thing.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, so, I mean the good thing about the sequence is that

in the last two stages, 7 and 8, there really is not a lot of work going on 15

and that will mean that we are well and truly out of the other sections

of the work, and at most, particularly of section 8, while it is a large

area, there is actually not a lot of work going on in there. And that will

be done, effectively, by people from their home bases rather than from

a construction site office activity. 20

MR MCMAHON: Yes, that takes me to my next question, in fact. If you could

go to that chart or timeline calendar, yes, so, can you just – In terms of

the two, the initial stage of enabling works and the final stages, what – I

am struggling to read it on the screen, but what sort of duration is 25

involved in both of those stages at either end of the project in terms of

timeframes?

MR KENDERDINE: So the - - -

30

MR MCMAHON: As a proportion of the 30 months’ total.

MR KENDERDINE: Right, so that last – The first stage is about three months.

Two months, two and a half months, three months, for those, kind of,

enabling-type works. And the last stage is also about three months. 35

MR MCMAHON: So on that basis, it would be a call period of 24 months

involved in the non-enabling and non-decommissioning type stages?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I mean, in a general sense, yes, that is correct. 40

MR MCMAHON: That is useful, thank you. Yes, can I take you to paragraph

6.2 of your concise summary? And you have outlined some of the

consultation with potentially affected parties, one being the Mt Cook

School. I just wondered why you chose to signal out that particular 45

Page 7329


party as opposed to others. Was there any particular reason that you

chose them/

MR KENDERDINE: Well, obviously we have got a very good relationship

with them, and there is a lot of concern, and rightly so I guess, out in 5

the community about how we go about these relationships, and I

thought that was worthy of note of also the history that most people in

the area are aware of the fact that Mt Cook school’s concern effectively

derailed an earlier proposal of shifting State Highway 1 hard up against

its boundary, and the park to be built on the other side. So in that 10

context, when we come along and say, ‘By the way, the very first thing

we are doing is pushing State Highway 1 up against your boundary’, it

was a reasonably sensitised environment.

So to say it was a concern was an understatement. So I think it is a 15

really good example of where we have gone from that real concern

about how this is all going to impact on us, to I would posit, 180

degrees in the other direction which is – Sandra is also quoted as saying

she is going to miss us, which is not often what people say about large

construction parties. 20

MR MCMAHON: In terms of their position and the way that they - - -

CHAIRPERSON: It must be you, Mr Kenderdine. It is your romanticism, you

see. 25

MR MCMAHON: And I guess during our site visit on the Saturday a few

weeks ago, we got that impression from the various colouring

competitions and naming of machinery and that sort of thing.

30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR MCMAHON: But I just wondered what the Board can make of that. In

terms of their position and the way they operate, in your view, would

they be the most affected daytime receptor? 35

[4.05 pm]

MR KENDERDINE: There are people that work during the day from home at

Tasman Gardens who can be impacted upon. And I think it is called 40

Tory Hall, it is a small residential block just down Tory Street. We

worked and are working directly outside the window of the

conservation room in Te Papa archives which was our very first

affected party, because that is where we started breaking up concrete

directly outside. And I do not know if you have ever had the pleasure 45

of walking around inside it, but with 95 percent of New Zealand’s

Page 7330


treasures in there, it is really quite something. And there are objects in

there that will literally shake to pieces. So, again, relatively sensitive.

The issue with the school and, I guess, Massey on the other side, is

their people walk through and around the site constantly as well. So we 5

are extremely mindful of that. We have the J-walking discussion

constantly.

MR MCMAHON: So one of several daytime receptors? Thank you. Just going

on to paragraph 6.5 over the page, you made some reference there 10

towards the end of that paragraph, Mr Kenderdine, about some of the

possible mitigations including temporary relocation, and you touched

on that this morning. Was I correct in understanding that there have not

been any temporary relocations thus far?

15

MR KENDERDINE: There has been the offer, and in a couple of situations

for the Mt Cook Police barracks’ commercial operations.

MR MCMAHON: Yes.

20

MR KENDERDINE: We were sheet piling six metres away from their front

wall, so we offered them to, effectively relocate them if they would like

to. They did not. Some of them did and some of them did not.

MR MCMAHON: The reason I ask that question, Mr Kenderdine, is that in 25

the draft noise conditions that we have from us, that came out of the

conferencing between the two noise experts, relocation has been

identified as a possible mitigation fall-back in the event that other

matters are not resolved.

30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR MCMAHON: I am just trying to get a feel for how realistic and how

practical that is.

35

MR KENDERDINE: I guess our experience is that, and it is limited to be fair,

our experience in the matter. But some people are more than happy to

do that, and if it means they just do not need to be near the noise and

disruption then they are more than happy at that point. Others, the

disruption to their daily life is such that they would prefer not to. 40

MR MCMAHON: In relation to the Grandstand apartments, which that

condition is written in respect to, we have heard from – I cannot think

of her name, one of the owners who has got tenants in there. And it

may well be that while the receptor is the tenant, not the owner. 45

Page 7331



MR MCMAHON: And I am just wondering the extent to which relocation of

the tenant is actually a solution to the owner’s dilemma, if you see what

I mean? 5

MR KENDERDINE: Well, this comes a little bit to the discussion we were

having with Ms Jones in terms of who is actually affected by this work.

Is it the building owner or is it the tenant? Clearly, if we are making

noise at 10 o’clock at night and your window is 10 metres away, it is 10

you. And that is who the remedy will be directed that, rather than

someone who is sound asleep in Khandallah.

MR MCMAHON: Yes, I understand that. I was raising that solely in terms of

any commercial arrangements or commercial penalty that the owner 15

might have as a result of relocation. And that is probably not for you to

comment.

MR KENDERDINE: Well we have had one example of that, and as it

happened, we found a solution which is that we have rented it and put 20

one of our staff in there. So the closest receiver to our work is actually

one of our staff, that sleeps in 1 Tasman Street.

MR MCMAHON: Well I am glad you said that, because that brings me onto

my last questions, and it is not intended to be flippant at all, but how 25

would you feel about living in the Grandstand apartments for the

duration of the construction period?

[4.10 pm]

30

MR KENDERDINE: That is a very good question. I guess, over the course of

some of the larger projects I have worked on I have been asked that

numbers of times. There is no doubt, at times, it would be quite

challenging and that is just one of the things we have got to work

through. 35

Interestingly enough, when you look at the evidence of Mr Dravitzki in

a noise sense, it is a very high noise environment during the day

anyway. So the majority of our activity will unfortunately fit within

their current noise boundaries, whether that is a good thing or a bad 40

thing, we can probably – it is not for me to discuss, but one does get the

impression that if you are on the third or fourth level and you look

west, that obviously our construction on the bridge will on nights

potentially be disruptive.

45

Page 7332


And that is where that sort of mitigation has to come into consideration.

I am not sure if anyone sleeps in the rooms on the south, facing directly

the bridge, but clearly we will need to have that conversation.

MR McMAHON: Well, from that side there are some tenants that do. 5

CHAIRPERSON: And they all seem to be bedrooms, just except for one,

though.

MR KENDERDINE: Right, so the conversation will be, you know, and that is 10

why we talk about some different options here. So it may be that we

build a wall temporarily to shield the light and the noise and somehow

or other hold that in place during that component of work.

MR McMAHON: Or maybe the Construction Environmental Management 15

Plan needs to be written so that the environmental management

supervisor does live in the site during the construction period.

MR KENDERDINE: Well, it is actually our community relations manager, so

he is very aware of the community’s concerns. 20

MR McMAHON: Well, Mr Baines was relaying a very similar situation to me

at lunch time about a landfill in the northern part of the North Island

where the environmental manager lived on site and he was probably the

most affected and became very aware of any complaints very readily. 25

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR McMAHON: Thank you, Mr Kenderdine, that is all from me.

30

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr McMahon. Mr Baines?

MR BAINES: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Kenderdine. Just picking up on Mr

McMahon’s last point, am I right in thinking, when he asked you, no

one has actually been relocated so far. I think you pointed that you have 35

some people in an office or a commercial building, some have chosen

to and some had not?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

40

MR BAINES: But no residents from the apartment building have chosen to?

MR KENDERDINE: But, no, and to be fair it is only a recent discussion that

we have had with them. Just as you can imagine our concrete pours and

things are now literally directly outside whereas previously they were 45

somewhat shielded by the buildings.

Page 7333


MR BAINES: They are getting closer?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

5

MR BAINES: So, if you compare that, if you take that experience and

compare it with what might happen here, you would in fact be much

closer to Grandstand Apartments, would you? To any apartment or to

any other residential building for that matter, you know, that you might

expect that something like that might be a more – it might come into 10

play a bit more?

MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely, yes.

MR BAINES: Okay. I would just like to take the opportunity, I have got some 15

questions and they really have just to do with the condition around the

community reference group and I would like to, if you like, pick your

brains, from your experience on how to make this most effective. Cos

when I look at it at the moment it just seems to me that it begs a lot of

questions? 20

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just interpolate there just for a second?

MR BAINES: Yes.

25

CHAIRPERSON: It is just that you have triggered my memory. I have been

meaning to ask if it is possible to have the conditions indexed?

MR CAMERON: Yes, it is.

30

CHAIRPERSON: It makes it a lot easier, when we are looking at stuff.

Pardon?

MR CAMERON: We very much got to that point, haven’t we?

35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: Yes, absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 40

MR CAMERON: And while I am on my feet I take it you were referring to

condition 1, I think, earlier in our conversation about plans.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? 45

Page 7334


MR COLLINS: Of the revised plan for the cycle discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.

MR CAMERON: I did reflect upon it, it took a minute to my adopted (ph 5

4.52) cycle.. I will need – I have talked to Mr Daysh and we will adjust

condition 1 to incorporate in this plan.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I thought.

10

MR CAMERON: Which is the point, I assume, your Honour was making?

[4.15 pm]

CHAIRPERSON: To incorporate it, that is what I thought. Yes, that is right. 15

MR CAMERON: I understood that and asked him to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you and if we get an index when we are looking

at something and we want to look up the conditions, we have to go so 20

we could get them indexed, it would make it a lot easier.

MR CAMERON: Mr Daysh is nodding very authoratively so I was going to

say in the morning but there we go, as soon as we can.

25

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you.

MR CAMERON: Whip it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sorry Mr Baines, it is just that I have been 30

meaning to do it for the last few days and I keep forgetting.

MR CAMERON: I should have thought of it myself.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said condition something or other it just 35

triggered my memory, thank you.

MR BAINES: Right, thank you, so DC6 was the one I am looking at in

particular here and really what I want to ask you about from your

experience, your practical experience the things to do with the 40

interrelated aspects of membership or composition, function, modus

operandi which is different from function and maybe even questions of,

I do not know whether you call them resourcing or admin supports, but

let me start at the beginning.

45

Page 7335


I think the composition of this group is quite important to think about

but it is very much related to the function, am I right in thinking that,

do you see the primary function of the community reference group as

being, as a mechanism for managing the direct effects of construction

on directly affected people? 5

MR KENDERDINE: I guess we would give primacy to something then that is

right up there and probably yes. It is not, but it is very closely followed

in this particular case as I said by a number of other things which is the

whole completion of the design documentation, the ongoing discussion 10

around the Northern Gateway Building and how that might end up.

The building under the bridge that forum is also a sounding board for

how that is going.

MR BAINES: That is a different function is it not, that is saying we have got 15

a proposal and if the proposal as it is currently before us is approved

then there is still work to be done to finalise some elements of it right

and I suppose it would be fair to say that if one is thinking about that

phase of it, then the stakeholders that have put their hands up for this

hearing are amongst those that might be interested in seeing how some 20

of those things are finalised and resolved.

Okay, so I can understand what you mean by that function DC6 at the

moment I think seems to focus on the construction side of things

although what you have talked about is in fact pre-construction 25

finalisation so accepting that they might be more than one function, at

some point it then becomes a matter of okay we are now into

construction, we know that we are likely to have effects on certain

people, we want to be able to be in touch with those people or certainly

with representatives of those people. 30

I am just wondering whether in terms of thinking about who should be

on this community reference group bearing in mind what you have just

said and maybe initially when it is set up it might have a relatively

broad membership because you are going through that finalisation 35

stage, but then it moves to a stage where really the only representatives

you want there are those who are representing people who are going to

be directly affected by the construction activity so nearby residents and

business owners and so on, does that make sense?

40

MR KENDERDINE: It does and my experience with community reference

groups they do self-select after a while. We intended to, assuming the

answer is, the application is allowed we will be trying to contact people

as soon as possible, both individually and representative of the groups

because that is when there is the most ability to influence both the 45

Page 7336


process and how it is formed, tweaking the function, all those sorts of

things.

Then there is a relatively high degree or an enormous level of interest

in how it is going to work because there is an enormous concern. The 5

classic organisational behaviour peak and trough then follows which is

quite intense while everyone gets their head around it and learns how

everyone fits together and the communication protocols are agreed and,

and, and, which is why you need to start it as soon as possible to start

that process so that you get into that performing stage. 10

[4.20 pm]

The issue with potentially if you say frontloading it with too many

people is that you never quite get there. 15

MR BAINES: I am wondering because you made a suggestion before when

you were responding to something I think Ms Jones asked you, actually

the notion of considering more than one group as such and I am

wondering whether that might be a sensible way to address this because 20

it seems to me that if I can use some simple examples.

If your concern is we need to finalise what the Northern Gateway

Building is going to look like in height and length that that is of interest

to quite a number of potential users and other people around it, like a 25

board group but you have also said that in fact the bigger the group, the

more difficult it is to (a) to keep it going and (b) to manage it while it is

happening.

If you were then comparing that for example with now we are going to 30

get into construction, we need to talk to those about how many nights

work we have and the kind of information you were giving us before,

that is actually not of interest to people who are half a kilometre or

more away, it is really for people essentially in this north eastern

quadrant, it is quite a small group, for most of the construction effects it 35

is quite a small group. I wonder whether in fact it might make sense to

think in terms of having two distinct groups.

MR KENDERDINE: It is definitely a possibility but I think the thing about

this community reference group is it is kind of this community here and 40

the sense of community both in the business and the residents. In that

respect I suspect would work quite well because there is mutual

relationships, clearly in my discussions that I have had with a few of

the businesses and a few of the people that already exist.

45

Page 7337


I think the point that was being raised is for instance further away and

maybe traffic related or The Architecture Centre which might be design

related, it is about, it is not necessarily formalising those groups but it

is not that the door will be shut and that I would suggest very quickly

that there will be people that would want to, having thought about the 5

question for a while now just provide their insights and thoughts.

I mean there is a strict process in here because obviously the end up

owner I think is Wellington City Council or something built in the

Basin. They are the owner and effectively this is being facilitated once 10

the parameters are agreed upon their behalf.

Who they want to include and not include kind of slightly different, but

I mean we would not shut the door to anyone that has got comments or

suggestions or thoughts. 15

MR BAINES: I can see how that would be a very appropriate approach, a

welcoming and increasing approach for that, let us now go to the

business end and say okay we have decided that now we are just

getting on building this as quick as we can. It is this community over 20

here. Now that really then is about managing, about the most effective

way of managing the effects of our construction, whether we are going

to disrupt people, make it more difficult to move around, upset their

sleep etcetera.

25

Would I assume that in terms of the membership of your community

reference group at that stage would be predominantly representatives

from that community, maybe some residents from Ellice Street, a

couple of commercial operators or whoever but a number of

representatives so it will be represented it is not going to be everyone 30

who wants to come from Ellice Street, it is going to be, choose your

people, we want half a dozen people, who are they.

Presumably also you would have non community reps you would have

your consent holder at this, you would have your consent administrator 35

the council and then given that it is a construction project you would

have someone from, like yourself or whoever you delegate to.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

40

MR BAINES: Would you expectation be that in fact when you look at that

group as a whole most of them are actually representative of the

community and you have got these other three that I just mentioned

who would be in a sense the other parties discussing.

45

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

Page 7338


MR BAINES: It does not have to be lopsided, but it does need to be

represents the affected community, does that make sense?

[4.25 pm] 5

MR KENDERDINE: That does make sense.

MR COLLINS: Okay.

10

MR KENDERDINE: And I guess to that, when I look at this list, it seems to

do that.

MR COLLINS: Right.

15

MR KENDERDINE: There maybe one or two others in it, there may be some

self-select out of it.

MR COLLINS: Right.

20

MR KENDERDINE: And it may be for instance, and I guess this is why the,

the intent versus the black and white is always important, which is that

maybe that there’s a very high level – six monthly forum for general

update - - -

25

MR COLLINS: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: - - - versus what will probably be monthly.

MR COLLINS: I was going to say, the first thing that caught my eye actually, 30

Mr Kenderdine, was that at least one meeting every three months and I

thought, “Well, my notion of what this reference group might do”, as I

described, something to do with managing effects, one would be

wanting to meet rather more frequently to begin with, (A) to learn up

and school up about it and (B) just to make sure we are starting to 35

move in the right direction, in the right way - - -


MR COLLINS: - - - and after a while, one might expect for people to say, 40

“Look, we don’t need to meet so frequently, but if you meet on a as

needs basis”, is that the way you see it, I mean - - -

MR KENDERDINE: And that - - -

45

MR COLLINS: - - - that could decide for itself, could it not?

Page 7339


MR KENDERDINE: And that tends to be what happens, so that you – I

mean, I would fully expect to be meeting more frequently at the start

and then, not later on.

5

MR COLLINS: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: I think the black and white is there as a baseline and

what the baseline does, is it takes out, for instance on one of my

projects where the community – one member of the community forum 10

was more than happy to meet every second night, and you’ve got to be

able to fall back on something and say, “Well actually, would you” - - -

MR COLLINS: I hear what you are saying, it struck me that once – starting

off with a baseline of once every three months perhaps sent the slightly 15

wrong implicit message about what this was about.

MR KENDERDINE: I can categorically state that it would be more than once

every three months, probably for the first nine, so.

20

MR COLLINS: Yes. I would have thought so, I mean if it serves a useful

purpose then in fact it is going to be doing more business during that

time, is it not?


MR COLLINS: Now can I – just looking at, what it has got here for

“purposes” on the DC6, you made it, what I thought was an interesting

point earlier on today and one with which I am pretty familiar on, on

other projects and, if you look on number 1, “Provide a regular forum 30

to inform the community of the construction progress” and I have no

question that that is very important, but it seems to be what is equally

important is, that it provides a mechanism for information flow the

other way - - -

35


MR COLLINS: - - - so your Clyde Key School says, you know, “We want to

run a cross country” or we have got science classes that we want to do

this etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, so it is actually really important and I 40

am just wondering whether you think it is important in the conditions to

actually recognise that that information – it is not just about dispatching

information, it is about an exchange of information.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, and I guess that’s how I read this, but to be fair it 45

doesn’t put it as black and white as that, so which would be the same

Page 7340


phrase almost a regular forum to inform the constructor of the

communities effects.

MR COLLINS: Right, okay.

5

MR CAMERON: I think number 2 may assist in that respect, I - - -

MR COLLINS: Well it – it is not necessarily just about responding to things,

it is about being a bit more proactive than that I think – but that is all

right, I just want to check your understanding. 10

MR CAMERON: Well no sorry, sir, I’m agreeing with you - - -

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you could just add “and exchange information” after

progress. 15

MR CAMERON: Yes.

MR COLLINS: Yes, right.

20

MR CAMERON: Yes, I agree with the – I agree with the point entirely.

MR COLLINS: Right, okay. Coming to – I mean 3 is actually important, I

have no wish to change it, but it seems to me 3 is essentially about

building trust between the various parties, is it not, that is what it is 25

about.


MR COLLINS: Yes. 30


MR COLLINS: And that’s important to mind - - -

35

MR KENDERDINE: We got to be able to seen to do a little a walking and the

same talking.

MR COLLINS: You have function well it has got to be - - -

40

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR COLLINS: Yes. 4 though, is one why I raise another question, because it

seems to me that, if we – if one of its primary functions is to help

manage as effectively as possible from all parties perspectives, the 45

management of effects as we go through, then it is not just about

Page 7341


receiving monitoring information and monitoring results, it is actually

about saying, “And what do they tell us and do we need to do it – does

anything needs to change”.

MR KENDERDINE: Right. So it’s a sort of - - - 5

MR COLLINS: You see what I am saying, my point is that somewhere - - -

MR KENDERDINE: - - - a review of that as well.

10

MR COLLINS: A review of that and somewhere an accountability thing that

says, you know, “Next month we want to see what is different” or what

have you. I mean do think it is different. I think it is far less saying,

simply provide early information on milestones and monitoring results,

comes back to what the function of the group is and while it has not 15

been determined yet, it seems to be an appropriate function if this is a

mitigation measure, is that somewhere there is an accountability

mechanism that says, “We had this information on monitoring last

month, we discussed it and we thought, in one case, ‘no need to do

anything different, everything is going along tickety-boo’, or in a 20

another case there have been too many instances when such and such

has happened, we need to do something different. And the next month

we go back and check. So it does seem to me that it is more than just

receiving, it’s actually – there is a function in the group to discuss and

decide. Is that a fair observation or not? 25

[4.30 pm]

MR KENDERDINE: I think the review function is what I read into that.

30

MR BAINES: Right, okay.

MR KENDERDINE: So that’s not there, so that’s definitely right, which is

that if we put information up about where we’ve achieved or not

achieved in terms of targets, whatever they might be, then I would be 35

expecting to be reviewing that with the forum.

MR BAINES: With the forum, right.

MR KENDERDINE: Which is, they might say – well, we don’t care about 40

that.

MR BAINES: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: And we might be trying for 4.5 satisfaction in 45

pedestrians and cyclists and at 4.3 we don’t think we’re doing well

Page 7342


enough. Everyone might say – well actually no, that’s okay we don’t

really care about that.

MR BAINES: Right.

5

MR KENDERDINE: Conversely they might say it is world-ending, and so I

expect that review process to occur.

MR BAINES: Okay.

10

MR KENDERDINE: The kind of decide the next step bit is where we start

getting brave, because of course there’s a whole bunch of certified

plans in the back.


MR KENDERDINE: And that’s the black and white if you like versus how

we can better inform or what we might do to amend those.


MR KENDERDINE: But if you kind of delegate that side you then sort of end

up in the – well whose got voting rights and who hasn’t? And if we all

decide here, does that actually change the management plan or not, and

that’s a slightly different - - - 25

MR BAINES: Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I have always been

told that these management plans are about adaptive management and

therefore the plans do evolve from time to time.

30

MR KENDERDINE: Most definitely, yes.

MR BAINES: And I am just thinking if we accept that the primary function is

to collectively manage effects so that we can get (INDISTINCT 2.14)

then, you know, is it appropriate that there be something that says we 35

don’t just receive the information, we discuss it as a group and the

group agrees somehow, and I’m not trying to sort of tie things down to

black and white but there is - - -

MR KENDERDINE: I think there’s definitely a review function and you 40

could say that there’s a recommendation of future action.

MR BAINES: Right, yes.

MR KENDERDINE: Which may or may not be adopted, but obviously if 45

you’ve got the statutory authority in the same room and you come to

Page 7343


review your management plans in the sequence set out in here, and this

has been repeated with reason over here, then clearly the two should

meet.

MR BAINES: Should meet, right, okay. Yes, because we are assuming in 5

fact there will be representatives of the consent holder and the consent

administrator as part of that aren’t we?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes we are.

10

MR BAINES: Although that is not down here at the moment.

MR KENDERDINE: That it might not be done.

MR BAINES: Yes. 15

MR KENDERDINE: I would definitely assume that on there.

MR BAINES: Okay. I’m almost done. Am I right in thinking that at the

moment with the community reference group that you run, that 20

essentially the alliance – they come and meet at a certain place and

someone takes notes, one of your staff takes notes and whatever admin

stuff needs to be done gets done by you guys?

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, in principle it’s a little bit different, because the 25

community forum is mandated to the Minister of Culture and Heritage,

strictly under the Act.

MR BAINES: Okay.

30

MR KENDERDINE: So it’s slightly different from this community reference

group.

MR BAINES: Okay.

35

MR KENDERDINE: But in principle - - -

MR BAINES: Do you have any advice – what would be the appropriate here?

MR KENDERDINE: I think, yes, the administration of it we need to do. So 40

we need to take minutes, we need to distribute those.

MR BAINES: These things do need a bit of - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Absolutely. 45

Page 7344


MR BAINES: Okay. And I am just wondering, we’ve heard quite a lot about

– I think Ms Jones was asking you how can you as their constructor –

you know make sure that everyone gets to hear about it, not just the

body corporate rep but all the others as well. It seems to be often an

assumption that it is up to the consent holder or the constructor to do all 5

the communicating. Is it worth thinking about – no, let me ask you this

question, do you get the same sense that the people that come to your

reference group up there feel an obligation when the meeting is over to

go and inform their members?

10

MR KENDERDINE: My experience would be, yes, actually.

MR BAINES: Right.

MR KENDERDINE: Locally. And a really good example of that would be 15

Mt Cook Community Group.

MR BAINES: Okay.

[4.35 pm] 20

MR KENDERDINE: And they seem to be religious – if that’s not the wrong

word to use, in terms of the dissemination of information and ensuring

that that information goes out. Similarly our experience with the

(INDISTINCT 00.12) Valley community council, I think they refer to 25

themselves as were very good at distributing the information if one of

them came to one of our meetings, as opposed to us going to their full

committee meetings.

MR BAINES: Yes. So it would not probably come as a surprise to groups 30

like that if they found that they were operating around a condition that

actually did say – there is an obligation on participants to this

community reference group to take information back to their

organisation, so the onus is not just on the contractor to always be the

person that provides information and notification and so on and so 35

forth.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR BAINES: Right. Okay. I think that’s pretty much me. Thank you very 40

much for your comments and suggestions.

MR KENDERDINE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Baines. Mr Collins? 45

Page 7345


MR COLLINS: Now I hesitate to raise the crèche again, and I am aware that

people are waiting to be heard. But can I ask you, is it the same

contractor who is moving the crèche as building the underpass or is it

complicated?

5

MR KENDERDINE: It’s all the work that’s happening under the National

War Memorial Park project in the broader sense, which is being

delivered by the Memorial Park alliance, which is at the top level as

NZTA, Downer, Hebb Construction you might be familiar with from

Auckland and Tauranga, URS who are a civil designer and Tonkin and 10

Taylor who are more well known for geology but also civil design.

MR COLLINS: Okay, and has it been easy?

MR KENDERDINE: Has it been easy? We have an extremely competent 15

engineer leading that project, and he’s done a great job. We’ve got the

most experienced structural engineer in the country for shifting

buildings, Adam Thornton, who has been involved with the Museum

on Wheels, Waihi Pump Station, and the Birdcage in Auckland. He’s

been involved in all of those. Studio Pacific, Leanne Cox is a very 20

thorough heritage architect. So I don’t think it’s easy, but is it going as

well or better than it could, yes.

MR COLLINS: I’m sure if I quite – so was it easy or was it a complicated

project? Is it a complicated thing to do or is it pretty routine for these 25

people?

MR KENDERDINE: Well I guess Adam Thornton has now done it a few

times. The guys that are actually operating the levers have just come

from doing similar things for the last 12 months in Christchurch. So 30

there’s a degree of commonality about what we’re talking about.

MR COLLINS: Okay, good. Now I have got a series of questions for

clarification. I will refer to your summary, because it is the more

recent document. Firstly, at 3.5 following on from Mr McMahon’s 35

question really. Can you give us some indication of the level of

certainty about that approximately 30-months’ period, just for

background, it seems to me you put a lot of thought into this and you

have had a lot of advice from people who understand what is required

and there is a reasonable level of design. But I’m thinking what about 40

bad weather or other complications. So from the point of view of

affected people, can you say 30 months, give or take a week, or just

give us some indication of the level of certainty.

Page 7346


MR KENDERDINE: Well I guess it’s the same team that says we’re going to

deliver the National War Memorial Park on time, and that’s give or

take a minute.

MR COLLINS: Yes. 5

MR KENDERDINE: So I’m pretty confident that that 30 months is about

right. I’d like it to be shorter. It could be 32.

MR COLLINS: Okay. So you say confidently within a couple of months 10

either side would be good.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR COLLINS: Because there is not quite the incentive with the current 15

project, this is quite unusual in there is an absolute time, a day.

MR KENDERDINE: It’s not often your brief includes an Act saying that

what you’re doing is going to be open on a certain day.

20

MR COLLINS: Yes, that’s right. So there is not quite that incentive. Okay,

you would be on record on here as assuring people it will be no more

than months after the 30 months, which is still quite a long time, isn’t

it, it’s a big project?

25

MR KENDERDINE: Well it is quite a long time, and that’s why I’d like to

think we can get it shorter. There’s not actually – it’s not the biggest

project ever but what it is, is for instance the bridge, you just have the

sequence so you have the piling, the pile cap, the pier, then you have

the bridge form work being built, then the bridge poured in two pours, 30

and just that sequence when you go across the valley it gives us that

time.

[4.40 pm]

35

So that the level of activity, from a construction point of view isn’t

huge I guess, so while it’s a long time it’s not a massive spend per

month that means the place is flooded with 600 people.

MR COLLINS: But it does mean that it’s not easy to make it shorter because 40

you are doing that same sequences of machinery, people, moving

across?

MR KENDERDINE: Correct, yes. And that’s the trick, if we can get that

sequence working better then we get time dropping out of the 45

programme.

Page 7347


MR COLLINS: Okay. Now, at 6.3 you referred to the presentation from

Ms Booth from the Tasman Gardens Body Corporate.


MR COLLINS: Now, something else you mentioned was that they were quite

conscious that after the disruption they are going to have a nice quiet

park outside. Now, that suggests to me that that would make them

more tolerant and easier to deal with than the people you may be 10

dealing with this time, you would agree with that?

MR KENDERDINE: I would probably concur with that. I mean I think

Ms Booth was generous in her phrasing around the challenges versus

the trade-off. 15

MR COLLINS: Right, so it just makes it a complicated project when the

people affected are a lot of them are submitters and they are not going

to be saying, “It’s okay because it is going to be a nice bridge when it is

finished”. 20

MR KENDERDINE: As I mentioned I have got quite an experience building

prisons and you can be sure that a lot of the people that we start with

have, again with good reason not only for the construction but the

operations, a great deal of concern. 25

MR COLLINS: Yes. You mentioned the Otago one and I was up the front for

that one and, as I recall, I think a lot of the people’s concerns might

have been allayed somewhat through the course of the hearing to hear

about, from the corrections people, about what happens with prisons 30

and so on. But still there is no comparison, is there, with even the level

of opposition and the situation there of it being slightly out of the town

to this situation here where it is a major project right close to people

living and working? So I am not trying to undermine your experience

in that one but there is no comparison. 35

MR KENDERDINE: Oh, yes, well, I mean there is four people 10 metres

away, definitely, yes.

MR COLLINS: Yes, absolutely. Okay, just moving on then. Now, can I just 40

turn to your Kenderdine 1, which is the supplementary where you

produced this very useful table. Now, this is fantastic and it is a pity

this wasn’t available to people as part of the application because, as far

as I know, I haven’t found anything like this in the documentation up to

now which really tells people, “Here’s the number of nights expected 45

for different kinds of activity”, it must be very useful.

Page 7348


Now, again I want to ask about that level of confidence in this. I think

you partly answered the question, presumably it’s the same as the level

of confidence in the total programme. You know how many piles there

are to make so you know how many nights it is going to take, so going 5

through all those, the piling, that’s a pretty exact number, you are quite

confident of that. The false-work, much the same, reasonably

confident.


MR COLLINS: The bridge deck, that might be more variable, do you think,

depending how much you get done during the day, no, or has it always

been there?

15

MR KENDERDINE: No, the concrete pours for the bridge deck are one of the

more challenging ones because they have to - - -

MR COLLINS: Have to be continuous.

20

MR KENDERDINE: They have to be continuous for the span because of the

tensioning structure.

MR COLLINS: Right, yes.

25

MR KENDERDINE: So if it is 15 we have got problems, if that makes any

sense.

MR COLLINS: Yes.

30

MR KENDERDINE: So there will be a lot of focus on making sure it is only

14

MR COLLINS: So let’s say that’s exact as well and then the service

relocations, perhaps that’s more variable? 35

[4.45 pm]

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, yes, we have – I mean we’ve taken quite a big

figure both for that and the traffic relocations, because of the fact that if 40

we alter the intersection, as we did three nights ago for – on Taranaki

Street, that’s one of those nights. It was three vans and about six blocks

until about 10.30, but strictly speaking it’s one of these.

Page 7349


So these ones – while there is some intensity in them, and let’s be very

clear, milling an asphalt paving is intensive, within this there’s also

quite a lot of less intensity activities.

So similarly with the services that may actually be a relatively small 5

number of people and equipment and one relatively confined trench

that we're talking about, as opposed to the concrete pores, which is

mobile light towers, 40 metres of bridge deck – no, 20 metres of bridge

deck and concrete pumps running for a long time.

10

MR COLLINS: A long time, okay, so the two – the last two items which have

by far the largest number of estimated nights, the two that are more

variable – it could be less, could be more - - -


MR COLLINS: - - - but they are the more variable ones, so adding it up, it is

about 180 nights roughly overall, and you say plus or minus, you know,

30 either way or that sort of order?

20

MR KENDERDINE: That sort of order off the top of my head.

MR COLLINS: And of course these affect different areas, they are not all at

the east end which is the more sensitive end.

25


MR COLLINS: And now, we do not have anything similar for the total – this

is the night-time thing – but there is also – some of these activities take

– well they all – most of them take place in the daytime as well - - - 30

MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR COLLINS: - - - I do not question really, I am just sort of saying, it would

be very helpful to ask it and to affected people to have this sort of table 35

outlining what are the noisy activities – no sorry, we know that from

the noise evidence – it is the duration the days or hours - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Right.

40

MR COLLINS: - - - to be affected - - -

MR KENDERDINE: Yes. So - - -

MR COLLINS: the idea. 45

Page 7350


MR KENDERDINE: Yes.

MR COLLINS: Okay, and finally, your final conclusion in your summary,

seem to be a fairly bold assertion that it could be constructed without

any significant adverse effects, but I think what you are really saying, is 5

given what you understand about – you know a good understanding of

what is involved and the sort of mechanisms you set up for mitigation

and consultation and so on that – what, it will be people be happy or

whether it will be acceptable or it is the best you can do or – it is just

that I am having trouble saying – I mean, your evidence is not that, 10

there will be no significant effects, there is going to be some significant

adverse effects all right.

MR KENDERDINE: Yes, I guess - - -

15

MR COLLINS: But what, what’s your - - -

MR KENDERDINE: - - - and so possibly run it, rather than a planner’s view

in terms of effects, with a (INDISTINCT 3.31).

20

MR COLLINS: Yes.

MR KENDERDINE: And I think that’s probably a fair point. I think the – I’m

confident that we can work through the really big issues and that people

will have confidence in the process. There will be a bumpy road to get 25

to that point and it will take a lot of work, but I think, you know, some

key receivers like schools, I’m confident that we can make them

actually feel reasonably positive about the experience.

MR COLLINS: Okay. 30

MR KENDERDINE: So.


35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Bain. Mr Kenderdine, thank you very

much for your assistance, I have no questions.

MR KENDERDINE: Thank you, your Honour.

40

CHAIRPERSON: We do appreciate you coming and taking of your time and

it has been most helpful, thank you.

MR KENDERDINE: Thank you.

45

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.49 pm]

Page 7351


MR CAMERON: Sir, there’s one matter that I don’t think I need to ask Mr

Kenderdine, but for the record, an inquiry has been made and Tasman

Gardens is not double glazed, so I just thought that should be put into

the record in the context of the discussion I was having with him this 5

morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Now we have two submitters, we have got Ms

– a Mrs Halakas, is she here? There you are, yes, but how long are you

likely to be? 10

MS HALAKAS: Not long, just three pages of - - -

[4.50 pm]

15

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we do not want to make you hurry and we have

also got Mr Barnett. How long are you likely to be Mr Barnett?

MR BARNETT: Yes, sir, 30 minutes.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you for that, well Ms Halakas we will hear you

now and perhaps if we put you on first thing in the morning Mr

Barnett. Thank you very indeed, we are sorry to have kept you waiting.

Yes, Mrs Halakas?

25

MS HALAKAS: Can I speak from here?

CHAIRPERSON: You can speak from there, yes you may indeed, yes

certainly. Just before you speak if you could just say your full name

for the record? 30

MS HALAKAS: Okay, do you want copies?

CHAIRPERSON: That would be wonderful if you have copies, yes, thank

you. You read the inquiry procedures obviously, thank you for that, 35

not many do.

MR CAMERON: Ms Halakas is having her material distributed for the sake

of clarification. Mr Kenderdine is still possibly required to come back

on Friday concerning the earthworks issue should that still be a matter 40

to be explored. Can he be released please from the constraints relevant

to a person who is under cross-examination? Can he be excused

effectively, but none the less be recalled if required?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. 45

Page 7352


MR CAMERON: As your Honour pleases.


MS HALAKAS: Shall I start? 5

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may start Ms Halakas.

MS HALAKAS: All right, I am Irene, and I am grateful for the opportunity to

express the views of my family and myself at this hearing. We have a 10

close association with the Basin Reserve area. My association dates

back to the mid-1950s when 21 Ellice Street was our family home.

I, my daughter and grandchildren have attended the schools in Mount

Victoria, the youngest is still at St Marks. Although we are not living 15

there at present we have a bathroom workshop at the house which we

use quite often. My grandchildren often go there to change from their

school uniform after school. We love living there and enjoyed the sun,

the view, the open space, the greenness of the Basin Reserve and the

convenience of walking to the city. 20

We had always planned to return to Ellice Street when we got older

which was about, we are getting older now so our daughter would also

love to move back with her family. There is enough land at the back

for my son in law who is a builder to build another house. 25

The Basin is a lovely iconic area surrounded by residential

accommodation, schools, churches and Government House. The

students congregate before and after school, parents wait to meet their

children. We are looking at displacing the people and replacing the 30

area with hunks of concrete. I do not know another area with so many

schools, churches, a park and a view of the Carillion in such close

proximity.

I always enjoyed hearing the sound in the Carillion, the area truly is a 35

hub. In my view the design of the Basin Bridge is a very poor solution

that will cause a lot more harm than any improvement that it might

make. It will destroy the valuable picturesque part of the city by

severely changing the landscape. It will be intrusive, obstructive, it

will fragment the area while making perceived improvements we 40

cannot ignore and destroy what already exists there.

Not enough consideration was given to the negative impact on the

whole area in the design of the Basin Bridge, an alternative design

should be proposed with a more sensitive approach that will not spoil 45

Page 7353


the area and will be less invasive. The adverse effects on our houses

will be permanent and of a great magnitude.

[4.55 pm[

5

The proximity of the cycleway seven metres as it stands as I understood

it, if it is any further that would be an improvement, seven metres from

our boundary would be right in our face. It will make it claustrophobic

living there. Our properties will be isolated we will lose three hours of

sunlight in the summer time. There be extra noise from the cycleway 10

and there will be two way traffic.

At the moment the traffic only goes one way. There will be increased

traffic volumes diverted closer to our properties. It will create dark

areas ideal for criminal behaviour or at the very least mischievous 15

behaviour, loss of income. There will be long term negative effects on

our rentals. The area will become undesirable and consequently so will

our houses. They will be hard to rent after the bridge construction

works have been completed and the new bridge is in place within seven

metres of our boundary. 20

Our properties are our main source of income. They have always been

rented. The area at present is a very desirable area to live in. Our

tenants have stayed a minimum of three years and we have had tenants

12 to 18 years. Loss of value to the properties, people do not want to 25

be under shaded cold concrete structure for any activity, let alone live

there. Our houses will only be suitable for car parking as there will be

a great shortage of parking.

It has come to my attention the Northern Gateway Building is a very 30

large structure which will also spoil Kent and Cambridge Terrace. This

is a much bigger building than is already there. The present buildings

blend in nicely and are not intrusive.

The planting of the Pōhutukawa trees in close proximity to the houses 35

is also an area of concern. The Pōhutukawa although a beautiful tree

grows very big and causes shading and can cause slime below. The

flowers cause a mess that will require a lot of attention. There is

already very little space between the bridge and our houses. The

developers need to realise that an enhanced environmental setting is not 40

achieved through significant additional landscaping.

Landscaping does not cure the ugliness of a concrete structure so close

to houses, schools and churches obscuring light, sun, views, lack of

privacy and causing extra noise and pollution. If the proposal is 45

Page 7354


accepted I would like the Board to remove the separated pedestrian

bridge from the design and connect it to the main bridge.

It was never in any previous plans. This was an afterthought that gave

very little consideration to what already exists there. Bridges can look 5

lovely crossing over water they were never supposed to be flying over

houses, churches and schools.

The hearing process has been very challenging. It has come at a great

cost to us in time, stress and financial loss having to hire lawyers, a 10

planner, doing valuations on our properties. We feel very strongly

about this situation. We feel our personal loss will be immense. We

trust that our opposition will be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I can assure it can Ms Halakas and thank you 15

very much for your submission and your representation.

MS HALAKAS: Thank you for hearing me.

CHAIRPERSON: It has been well put together and you have obviously spent 20

a lot of time preparing it so thank you.

MS HALAKAS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming. Has anyone got any questions? 25

MR COLLINS: Just to clarify I think did you own 21 and 23?

MS HALAKAS: Yes.

30


MS HALAKAS: But 21 was our family home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much indeed. 35

MS HALAKAS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn but just before we adjourn Mr Cameron

we note from the draft conditions of consent that the planning 40

witnesses in their caucusing have all reached agreement with the

exception of one planning- - -

Page 7355


[5.00 pm]

MR CAMERON: Participant.

CHAIRPERSON: Participant, yes. How are you proposing and who, and I 5

think Mr Bennion is, she is Mr Bennion’s witness, is that right?

MR CAMERON: I am not sure she is. I think she’s independent.

CHAIRPERSON: She’s independent, yes. 10

MR CAMERON: Ms Warren.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Warren, that is right, yes.

15

MR CAMERON: Who, of course, is not a planner, but has been permitted to

participate in the caucusing and I have been turning over in my mind

on that basis, while she’s made a contribution to the process, of course,

given that she is not a planner, how it affects, and can affect, the

outcome otherwise agreed between all qualified planners who have 20

attended – in other words, the experts.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, yes, well- - -

MR CAMERON: I am sorry, sir, that was where my mind was taking me. 25

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, I didn’t understand she was not a planner, but

she could participate in it, in any event, in the caucusing- - -

MR CAMERON: She did. 30

CHAIRPERSON: So we cannot just ignore the fact that she did and that she

has got views contrary to what everyone else in the caucus appears to

have – a number of issues. We do not need a full planning- - -

35

MR CAMERON: Hot tub.

CHAIRPERSON: Hot tub, because everyone agrees except one, and I was

thinking if, it depends on whether anyone wishes to cross-examine,

whether you want to leave it to submissions. If there is going to be a 40

cross-examination, I would suggest that just two people participate –

namely the NZTA planner and Ms Warren.

MR CAMERON: Yes, sir, I will turn my mind, I will come to a view on that

overnight. 45

Page 7356


CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: And inform the Board tomorrow morning of whether or not

I wish to cross-examine her- - -

5

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMERON: In the circumstances as I have just outlined them to you.

CHAIRPERSON: And she cannot cross-examine Mr Daysh. 10

MR CAMERON: No, she can’t. But I’m, in other words, given that she is not

a planner and an expert, per se, and she may or may not accept that –

knowing her a little, I imagine she probably would in terms of

qualifications, but not in terms of expertise. 15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. What does she do?

MR CAMERON: She’s a senior policy adviser to the Minister of Conservation,

and has been with the Department of Conservation for, since 1987. 20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well she may have some planning knowledge as a

consequence of her experience, yes.

MR CAMERON: I know her- - - 25

CHAIRPERSON: You do not have to be- - -

MR CAMERON: I think it would be fair to say she certainly has worked

around planners for many years, but is not a planner- - - 30

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you do not have to necessarily have the

qualifications to be able to participate as an expert on a matter.

MR CAMERON: I didn’t object to her participation. 35

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I agree, I understand that.

MR CAMERON: And I really did take the point very early in the process in

respect of that issue in relation to a number of people. 40

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR CAMERON: However, given the way in which this has developed, and

the position that she has assumed in relation to all others, it does throw 45

Page 7357


the matter into somewhat stark relief, and I now have to turn my mind

to how to deal with that.

CHAIRPERSON: You do indeed, yet another matter.

5

MR CAMERON: I actually have to say I think that is right, that has been my

provisional view- - -

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what I said, the way you have got to deal with

it is either by way of submission or by way of- - - 10

MR CAMERON: Cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination.

15

MR CAMERON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And- - -

MR CAMERON: I was encouraged on the noise issue here to think about in a 20

submission- - -

CHAIRPERSON: And I think if you were going to cross-examine her it would

be appropriate for Mr Daysh to be on the stand so as he could make

answers to any questions or reply to any questions, or add to any, sorry, 25

any answer that she may give.

MR CAMERON: Yes, it’s unfortunate that Ms Taylor isn’t also available, of

course, but I think- - -

30

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Taylor?

MR CAMERON: The Board’s planner.

CHAIRPERSON: Has she got some extra, some other ideas as well? 35

MR CAMERON: No, sir, no, no. sorry, I was just thinking the balance, it may

have been desirable that she also be there, but she cannot be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, of course, she has got other difficulties. 40

MR CAMERON: She has got other difficulties, so I was just making an

observation. I’ll think about it overnight, sir, and confirm the approach.

But I am provisionally of the view, in other words I will take

instructions that will deal with that issue by submission, but I am really 45

Page 7358


playing around with how I am going to deal with the noise issue –

that’s troubling me.

[5.05 pm]

5

CHAIRPERSON: Well you discuss that with Mr Daysh and sort something

out.

MR CAMERON: Thank you, sir.

10

MATTER ADJOURNED AT 5.05 PM UNTIL

THURSDAY, 22 MAY 2014

Date post:	11-Aug-2020
Category:	Documents
Upload:	others
View:	1 times
Download:	0 times

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BOARD OF INQUIRY Basin Bridge … · 2019-04-06 · TRANSCRIPT OF...

Documents