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PB/1a/11.00
The House met at eleven of the clock, MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.
------- Q.No. 241
SHRI A. ELAVARASAN: Sir, the reply given by the hon. Minister is
incorrect because as per the report of the Parliamentary Standing
Committee, around 50,000 tonnes of wastes have been dumped. What
do you say on this?
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as per the Notification, no waste is
permitted for dumping purposes in the country. Only waste material is
allowed for recycling purposes. However, what the hon. Member is
referring to, I will look into the matter.
SHRI A. ELAVARASAN: Sir, my second supplementary is, are there any
penal action by the UPA Government and by the minority Government of
Tamil Nadu on this illegal dumping? So, I would like to know whether
the Government would take any action to ban even the recyclable
wastes from other countries. If so, the details thereof. If not, the
reasons therefor.
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as per the Notification, the imports
are regulated by the Ministry of Environment which gives the permission
and the DGFT issues the licence. As we know, Sir, there is a shortage
of some of the metals like lead, zinc, cadmium and copper in our
country. So, we are importing these things and we are encouraging the
industry to go for recycling purposes. There is concept of 3Rs, namely,
reduce, reuse and recycle. So, this is a well regulated system. We have
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Q.No. 241 (Contd.)
brought the Notification in 2008. All the recycling industries are
registered and the prior consent of the country is obtained while
importing these things. So, there is no question of allowing the dumping
by the Tamil Nadu Government. It is all regulated by the Ministry and by
the DGFT.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri A. Vijayaraghavan. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Sir, in his reply, ...(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI VASANTHI STANLEY: Sir, there is an objection. How can
the hon. Member refer to ... ...(Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Please, please.
...(Interruptions)... Let's not get into a discussion on this.
...(Interruptions)... Yes; Mr. A. Vijayaraghavan.
SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Mr. Chairman, Sir, in his reply, the hon.
Minister has mentioned that the recyclable wastes like metal scraps,
etc., are being used in our country. Actually, Sir, the country has
virtually become a dustbin of all kinds of hazardous wastes from all parts
of the world. India has become a destination of these kinds of things.
Do you have any proper checking? For example, these steel companies
are using the metal scraps, which is very much hazardous to the health,
and, as a result of it, high level pollution is also there. So, will the
Government make a proper enquiry in this regard or give an assurance
to this House that it will do a proper checking with regard to the re-
usage of these kinds of things in the country, and, especially, keep a
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Q.No. 241 (Contd.)
check on those steel companies which are creating pollution in various
places, which is hazardous to the health of the ordinary people.
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as I have stated in my reply, the
waste is banned in the country. There is no question of dumping or
sending the waste to our country. There is a well laid procedure. We
have brought out a notification in 2008.
(Contd. by 1b/SKC)
1b/11.00/skc
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA (Contd.): All recycling industries are
registered and there is proper checking done. The Central Pollution
Control Board is monitoring the State Pollution Control Boards.
SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Sir, my question is specifically related to
steel companies which are using this particular scrap as raw material
and are creating pollution
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, we are importing scrap. As I have
said, recycling is economically beneficial and environmentally sound. In
our country, we have a shortage of Lead, Copper and Cadmium, as I
have said earlier, worldwide, the concept of three R's is on, not only in
this country and in developing countries, but also in the developed
countries. But it is all well regulated. Checks and balances are in place
and there is no question of dumping.
SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: But there are violations and some action
must be taken against it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not interrupt. Mr. Anbalagan.
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Q.No. 241 (Contd.)
SHRI S. ANBALAGAN: Sir, is there any other case of dumping waste by
Indian companies or the local companies? What action has been taken
in this regard?
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, a case was reported, a public
complaint was received, by the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board on
05.07.2008 that one ITC company which imports paper from foreign
countries, have engaged a contractor, SSR. Chandrashekar and
Company, for sorting out the material. On enquiry, it was found that 70
tonnes of segregated wastepaper imported by this company were
dumped in Kumaragelum and Salaigur villages. Notices were issued by
the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board upon which the company
removed that waste from the wells, and notices for disconnection of
electricity were issued. The matter went up to the High Court and the
High Court set aside the order, but that entire waste material is with the
ITC Company. The Government of India has issued circulars to the State
Governments that importers would have to ensure that all recyclable
material is actually recycled either by them or by other firms in the
business of recycling. This was noticed and action as per law has been
taken.
SHRI D. RAJA: Sir, pollution contributes in a big way to climate change
and global warming. I am happy to note that the hon. Prime Minister is
heading a commission to meet the challenges posed by global warming
and climate change. In this background, I would like to ask a specific
question. Tiruppur is a major centre for textile and oyster industries. It is
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Q.No. 241 (Contd.)
also a major centre causing pollution. The dyers of Tiruppur have
constructed 20 central effluent treatment plants, investing Rs. 800 crores,
and they have to pay Rs. 100 crores as interest. They have done this
because the High Court directed them to do so. They have done this,
hoping that the Central Government and the State Government will
extend financial grant to them. It so happens that the Planning
Commission will have to give approval for this; only then the Textile
Ministry can respond to it. My question is, will the Planning Commission
give approval for these plants? I urge upon the Central Government to
extend financial grant to those dyers. Tiruppur contributes tremendously
to the country's exports and foreign exchange earnings. It cannot be
neglected like this. I would like to ask the Central Government whether
they are thinking of extending financial grant and whether they are
thinking of taking up this issue with the Planning Commission to seek
approval.
(Followed by 1c/hk)
HK-ASC/11.10/1c
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, the proposal from Tirupur is pending
in my Ministry and a decision will be taken ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI D. RAJA: How long? I have written to the Prime Minister. Many
representations have been made to the State Governments and the
Central Government. How long can this continue like this? I want an
answer from the Minister and from the Government. Prime Minister is
sitting here. ..(Interruptions)..
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Q.No. 241 (Contd.)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, Mr. Raja, resume your place. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, so far as this question is concerned,
this is related to something else which is not connected to this question.
But I can assure the hon. Member that a decision will be taken at the
earliest.
(Ends)
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13
¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓܵÖÖ : 242
ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔ™ÒüßµÖ †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü Ûêú ‡ÃÖ ¾ÖŸÖÔ´ÖÖ®Ö
´ÖÖÆüÖî»Ö ´Öë µÖÆü ´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖ †Öî¸ü †×¬ÖÛú ÝÖÓ³Ö߸ü ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü
†ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü Ûúß ÝÖןÖ×¾Ö׬ֵÖÖë ÛúÖê •ÖÖê ²ÖœÍüÖ¾ÖÖ ×´Ö»ÖÖ Æîü, †ÝÖ¸ü Æü´Ö ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ³Öß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë ¸üÜÖë, ŸÖÖê •ÖÖê
´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûú¸ü®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öß Ûãú”û ÃÖÓãÖÖ‹Ó ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ÃÖÓ“ÖÖ×»ÖŸÖ Æïü, ו֮ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¤êü¿ÖÖë ´Öë
ÃÖ´¯ÖÛÔú ÃÖæ¡Ö Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®Æüà ÃÖ´¯ÖÛÔú ÃÖæ¡ÖÖë Ûúê ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ×ÃÖ»Ö×ÃÖ»ÖÖ
“Ö»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú •Ö²Ö
†Ö¯Ö®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´Ö ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö †Öî¸ü ¾µÖ¾ÖãÖÖ ÛúÖê, †¯Ö®Öê ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü †Öî¸ü
²ÖÖÆü¸ü ³Öß »ÖÖÝÖæ Ûú¸üÛêú, ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ×®ÖµÖÓ×¡ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ŸÖÖê ´Öï µÖÆü •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ Æü´Ö®Öê
†¯Ö®Öê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ‡ÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûúß Æîü ×Ûú ‹êÃÖß ÛúÖî®Ö-ÛúÖî®Ö ÃÖß ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖÓ Æïü, •ÖÖê
´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ ÛúÖ´Ö ÃÖÓ“ÖÖ×»ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß Æïü †Öî¸ü Æü´Ö®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ‹êÃÖß ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖë Ûêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü
†³Öß ŸÖÛú ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûúß Æîü? ŒµÖÖë×Ûú »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ×ÃÖ±Ôú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖê ²ÖÖÆü¸ü Æüß ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûú¸üÛêú
®ÖÆüà ³Öê•ÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ²Ö×»Ûú ‡ÃÖß ¸üÖßÖê ÃÖê ×¾Ö¤ü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ³Öß ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÆüÖê®Öê Ûúß ¯Öæ¸üß
ÃÖÓ³ÖÖ¾Ö®ÖÖ ´ÖÖî•Öæ¤ü Æîü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûêú ¸üÖßÖê ÃÖê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ³Öß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü †Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê
Æïü… ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÖê ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë ¸üÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹, †³Öß ŸÖÛú ‡®Ö ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖë Ûúß ŒµÖÖ •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü †Öî¸ü
ˆ®Ö´Öë ÃÖê ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö Ûêú ×¾Öºþ¨ü ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü, Ûéú¯ÖµÖÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ Ûú™ü Ûú¸ëü?
(1D/LP ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
KSK/LT/11.15/1D
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as illegal immigration is
concerned, the Government of India is straight and we have laws to
enforce it. Those, who are engaged in this, ought to get themselves
registered through the Ministry of Labour. The Ministry of Labour and
Employment looks into this matter. In addition to that, the Ministry of
the Overseas Indian Affairs, which is a newly-created Ministry, is also
involved in creating the awareness building campaign. Here, the issue is
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14
Q.No. 242 (contd)
to be looked into its proper perspective. There is a demand in some of
the Western countries for Indian workers. Large number of persons,
and most of them are unscrupulous, elude the Indian workers that if
they go abroad, they will get good job and earn good money. Being
tempted, quite a few of them fall into this trap and they resort to illegal
migration, and after that, they are subjected to harassment,
exploitations, and all sorts of things take place. Therefore, this is a
matter which is constantly being taken up. So far as our policies are
concerned, whenever the nationality of the country is identified, then, we
bring them back and our Missions everywhere facilitate the repatriation.
But, before that, we shall have to ensure that he is an Indian citizen.
Sometimes, it becomes little difficult because in order to stay in the
foreign countries, on arrival, they dispatch the passports. They refuse to
give their identity. Sometimes, they do not even resort to counsellor
services which are available and these things also take place.
Sometimes, they take advantage of the liberal immigration laws of
European countries. In the instant case, as I have mentioned in the
statement, 164 persons were arrested. Original information, which our
Mission got, was that around 200 persons had been arrested; all of them
were Indians. Later on, it was discovered that one was Indian. He had
a valid passport, but a forged visa. So, immediately, he was taken care
of and he has been repatriated. But, 163 persons were not Indians.
Even they were not kept in custody. I have the break-up that as per
Belgium laws, 129 persons were asked to quit. But, Belgium system is
that they do not follow it up, whether they are actually leaving or not.
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15
Q.No. 242 (contd)
So, some of them stay back. They do not leave and they try to go to
some other country from Belgium.
ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, õÖ´ÖÖ Ûúßו֋, ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûãú”û †Öî¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö
¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ †Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ‹Ûú ×´Ö®Ö™ü, ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ü®Öê ¤üßו֋…
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: I am coming to that. But, please
understand the problem. Don't link it up with the infiltration and don't
link it up with the terrorist infiltration. These two are totally different
issues. These people mainly go for seeking the job. Maybe taking
advantage of this, some infiltrators may come to India. But, India is not
sending any infiltrators to any other country. Let that point be quite
clear. We are not sending any infiltrators. They are civilians; largely,
they are job-seekers. But, they are exploited. Therefore, those 129
persons were asked to quit. Only 75 were new. Balance of them were
given the order to leave the country earlier, but they did not leave. So,
the Belgium laws said that they had been arrested earlier, therefore,
there was no need to arrest them for the second time; let them go.
Two of them were with valid documents. So, they were immediately let
off. Sixteen were children. They were sent to the Special Court of
Care. But, from there, they themselves voluntarily left and 16 are still
under Belgium custody. But, it should not be mixed up with the
terrorists who are infiltrating into India. Firstly, we are not sending. I
have no information that any terrorists are infiltrating into any other
country. If any country reports to that extent, surely, we will take
stringent action.
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16
Q.No. 242 (contd)
ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÃÖ¸ü, ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™Òüß ®ÖÆüà, ´Öê¸üÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÆü»ÖÖ ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™Òß Æîü, ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´Öï
†Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖÓ¸üõÖÞÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… ´Öï®Öê µÖÆü ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ‹êÃÖß
‹Ó•Öê×ÃÖµÖÖÓ, •ÖÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ ÛúÖ´Ö ÃÖÓ“ÖÖ×»ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûú¸üÛêú ŒµÖÖ
Æü´Ö®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô Ûúß Æîü? µÖפü ÆüÖÓ, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´Öï®Öê •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß “ÖÖÆüß £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ¤æüÃÖ¸üß
²ÖÖŸÖ ´Öï µÖÆü ïÖ™ü Ûú¸ü ¤æÓü ×Ûú ´Öê¸êü Ûú£Ö®Ö ÛúÖ µÖÆü †Ö¿ÖµÖ ײֻÛãú»Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖê ²ÖÖÆü¸ü
†ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ÛúÆüà •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü… ´Öï®Öê Ûêú¾Ö»Ö µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ×¾Ö¤êü¿ÖÖë ´Öë ‡®Ö ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖë Ûêú •ÖÖê
ÃÖÓ¯ÖÛÔú ÃÖæ¡Ö Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ˆÃÖ ¸üÖßÖê ÃÖê ³Öß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë †Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…
(akg/1f ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
AKG-GSP/1E/11.20
ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ´³ÖÖ¾Ö®ÖÖ ÛúÖê ¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ µÖÆü ´ÖÃÖ»ÖÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÝÖ´³Ö߸ü ÆüÖê
ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×±ú¸ü ÃÖê ¯Öæ”û ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Ûéú¯ÖÖ Ûú¸üÛêú µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ‹Ñ ×Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë
´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ´Öë •ÖÖê ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖÑ ÃÖÓ»ÖÝ®Ö Æï, ˆ®ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Æü´Ö®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö Ûêú ŸÖÆüŸÖ ŒµÖÖ
ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô Ûúß Æîü? †Ö¯Ö ˆÃÖÛúÖ ŸÖÖê •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ¤êü ¤ëü, ¯ÖÆü»Öß ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™ü¸üß ÛúÖ Æüß •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ®ÖÆüà †ÖµÖÖ!
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, I would like to request the hon.
Member to address this question to the Ministry of Labour dealing with
the manpower empowerment etc. This is their issue which I have stated
in reply to his question.
ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÁÖß´ÖÖ®ÖË, ´Öê¸üÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¯Öæ¸üÛú ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö µÖÆü Æîü, •ÖîÃÖÖ ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê
ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ³Öß ‹êÃÖê ¯ÖÏÛú¸üÞÖ ˆ®ÖÛúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ´Öë µÖÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ´Öë †ÖŸÖê
Æïü, ŸÖÖê ¾Öê ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´Öë •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤æüŸÖÖ¾ÖÖÃÖ Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ‡®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú
×»Ö‹ ¯Öã®Ö: †¯Ö®Öê µÖÆüÖÑ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë ²Öã»ÖÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê
´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ ÃÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ŸÖÖŸ¯ÖµÖÔ Æîü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú µÖê
»ÖÖêÝÖ ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü Ûúß ŸÖ»ÖÖ¿Ö ´Öë •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü? ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Æëü µÖÆüÖÑ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë »ÖÖÛú¸ü ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü ¤êü®Öê Ûúß
ÛúÖê‡Ô ¾µÖ¾ÖãÖÖ Ûúß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü? ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ µÖÆü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ ÃÖÛëúÝÖê ×Ûú ׯ֔û»Öê ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÖí Ûêú
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
17
Q.No. 242 (contd)
†®¤ü¸ü ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö ¤êü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ²Ö“ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®Æëü µÖÆüÖÑ »ÖÖÛú¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ
¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö ¤êü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏÛú¸üÞÖ ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †ÖµÖÖ Æîü?
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, when they come, they take the
advantage of various developmental programmes which are available for
them. Here, the 'rehabilitation' means to bring them back to take
advantage of getting job here including NRIs.
Secondly, we have different mechanism in this regard with various
countries, and, we are trying to have Memorandum of Understanding
with most of the countries. The issue is of illegal migration from India to
other countries; the issue is not of somebody coming from outside to
India. There is no definitive figure available in this regard. As I
mentioned in the course of my reply, whenever an illegal migrant reaches
a country, the first thing he does is that he destroys his identity,
destroys his passport. The facilities that we provide -- if he destroys his
passport -- are on verification of nationality because we are to verify as
to whether he is an Indian, he is not a Bangladeshi, he is not a
Pakistani, because, ethnically, more or less, we are the same.
Therefore, the citizenship has to be identified, and, this identification
process takes some time. Once it is identified, then, immediately, we
issue a certificate that though he does not have a valid passport, on the
basis of that certificate, he is helped to get repatriation to his country,
and, then, he goes and takes advantage of the available scheme for
rehabilitation.
ÁÖß ´ÖÖêŸÖß »ÖÖ»Ö ¾ÖÖê¸üÖ : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ
Ûúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤üß Æîü ×Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ¤æüŸÖÖ¾ÖÖÃÖ ®Öê ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö Ûêú ¯Ö¤üÖ׬ÖÛúÖ׸üµÖÖë ÃÖê ÃÖ´¯ÖÛÔú Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûúß
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
18
Q.No. 242 (contd)
ÛúÖê×¿Ö¿Ö Ûúß †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤êü®Öê ÃÖê ‡®ÖÛúÖ¸ü ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤üß…
´Öï ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ µÖÆü †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔ™ÒüßµÖ ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü,
וÖÃÖÛúß ŸÖ£µÖÖŸ´ÖÛú •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê ¤üß Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß, ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü
†Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ¤æüŸÖÖ¾ÖÖÃÖ ÃÖê µÖÆü •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¯ÖÏÖ¯ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü‡Ô ÆüÖêÝÖß ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü ®Öê ˆ®ÖÃÖê
ÛúÖ±úß ²Ö›Íüß ¸üÛú´Ö ¾ÖÃÖæ»Ö Ûúß †Öî¸ü ˆ®Æëü ²Öê»Ö±úÖê›Ôü Ûêú ÝÖã¹ý«üÖ¸êü ´Öë ¸üÜÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, וִ֮Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ‹Ñ ³Öß
£Öà, ²Ö““Öê ³Öß £Öê… ˆ®Æëü ‹Ûú ‹êÃÖê Ûú´Ö¸êü ´Öë ¸üÜÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, •ÖÖê þÖÖãµÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †×ÆüŸÖÛú¸ü £ÖÖ… ´Öï
´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê Ûêú¾Ö»Ö µÖÆü •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ‹êÃÖê †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔ™ÒüßµÖ ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü, •ÖÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë
ÃÖ×ÛÎúµÖ ÆîüÓ, •ÖÖê †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔ™ÒüßµÖ ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü,ü ÛúÖê ¯ÖÛú›Íü®Öê Ûúß ×¤ü¿ÖÖ ´Öë ŒµÖÖ ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß
•Öß ÁÖ´Ö ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖê •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß »ÖëÝÖê? ‡ÃÖ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸üß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß Ûêú †®ÖãÃÖÖ¸ü »ÖÝÖ³ÖÝÖ 15 »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖ
µÖÆü ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü £ÖÖ, וÖÃÖ´Öë Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ‹Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ Ûêú ÆüÖê®Öê Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü…
(1‹±ú/‹ÃÖÃÖß‹“Ö ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
-GSP/YSR-SCH/11.25/1F
ÁÖß ´ÖÖêŸÖß »ÖÖ»Ö ¾ÖÖê¸üÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): »Öê×Ûú®Ö ŸÖ£µÖÖŸ´ÖÛú •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ‡ÃÖÛêú ×¾Ö¯Ö¸üßŸÖ Æîü, וÖÃÖÛêú
†®ÖãÃÖÖ¸ü ˆ®Æëü ˆÃÖ ÝÖã¹ý«üÖ¸êü ´Öë ¸üÜÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, וÖÃÖ´Öë ²Ö““Öê £Öê, ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ‹Ó £Öà, ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë ˆ®Æëü Æü™üÖµÖÖ
ÝÖµÖÖ…
´Öï ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß Ûêú •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ÃÖÓŸÖã™ü ÆæÓü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ˆ®ÖÃÖê Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ
ÆæÓü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ ¾Öê ÁÖ´Ö ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖê ¯Öæ¸üß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß »ÖêÛú¸ü Æü´Öë ˆÃÖÃÖê †¾ÖÝÖŸÖ Ûú¸üÖ®Öê ÛúÖ Ûú™ü Ûú¸ëüÝÖê?
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as this particular case is
concerned, it is a fact that a number of persons were available from the
gurdwara itself. It is not confirmed by the Mayor's office, but we got the
information from other sources that the event took place on 18th
October. The Mayor visited that particular gurdwara on 1st November
and thereafter he said that the condition was not hygienic and
conditions would improve. Thereafter, he stated that the number of
persons who could stay overnight at gurdwara should be limited. The
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
19
Q.No. 242 (contd)
gurdwara authorities with whom we, our mission, contacted, they said
that they were complying with that instruction.
In the course of investigation, the public prosecutor stated that in
one particular room of 20 square metres, 28 persons were staying. I
have shared that information in the main text. He also certified that the
condition was not hygienic. This problem is there and that is the issue
on which Belgian papers agitated.
Here, Sir, there is really a nexus. It is not merely those who are
indulging in human trafficking from India but also those who are
absorbing some of them there, because they want to have cheap labour.
Compared to local workers, they want to have these workers who work
hard, provide greater yield, and demand less wages. So, it is helpful to
them in the agricultural work and in all sorts of other work. There is a
nexus. Every country is trying to curb that. For instance, we have
entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with the U.K., and it is
working very well. We have got the figures till July. Till July, 1,395
cases were reported relating to illegal immigrants. We immediately took
steps, and 844 were identified to be Indians and we brought them back.
And 395 cases are still pending along with 156 cases where no
nationality has been established. This type of action we are also taking
through the Memorandum of Understanding. We want to enter into this
kind of Memorandum of Understanding with most of the European
Countries.
SHRI B.J. PANDA: Sir, in the last couple of years, there had been
certain high profile cases of human trafficking caught at the airport
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
20
Q.No. 242 (contd)
where passports had been issued to somebody and were being used by
somebody else. These have been reported in the media. They have
involved sports teams. Unfortunately, they have involved even a Member
of Parliament. My question to the hon. Minister is this. What steps is
his Ministry taking to ensure that this kind of misuse of identity
documents does not happen? For example, to ensure that the passport
belongs to the person using it by way of using fingerprints for biometric
identification. Is any such step being contemplated by the Ministry?
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, we have decided to introduce
biometric passport system. Sir, as I mentioned on earlier occasions, we
are expecting to complete the entire process by 2010.
ÃÖ¸ü¤üÖ¸ü ŸÖ¸ü»ÖÖê“Ö®Ö ØÃÖÆü: £ÖÖæ, “ÖêµÖ¸ü´Öî®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö… ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ×ÃÖ´¯Ö»Ö ‡¿µÖæ ®ÖÆüà Æîü,
ו֮֟ÖÖ ×Ûú •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ´Öë ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖÖ»ÖÖë ÃÖê ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ‡»»ÖßÝÖ»Ö ‡´ÖßÝÖÏê¿Ö®Ö ÃÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ
²ÖÖÆü¸ü •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü †Öî¸ü µÖÆü ÃÖÓܵÖÖ Æü•ÖÖ¸üÖë ´ÖêÓ Æîü… µÖæ¸üÖê¯Ö ÛúÖ Æü¸ü ´Öã»ÛÌú ‹êÃÖê Æü•ÖÖ¸üÖë »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÃÖê
³Ö¸üÖ ¯Ö›ÍüÖ Æîü… ´ÖÖ»™üÖ ´Öë 1996 ´Öë ‹Ûú ™Òêü•Öê›üß Æãü‡Ô £Öß, •ÖÆüÖÓ 300 ‡Ó×›üµÖ®ÃÖ ‹Ûú ×¿Ö¯Ö ´Öë
‡ÓÝ»Öï›ü •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü £Öê †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü ×¿Ö¯Ö ›æü²Ö ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ… †Ö•Ö ŸÖÛú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ®Öê ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ³Öß
Ûãú”û ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü…
psv/1g ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß
PSV-VKK/1G/11.30
ÃÖ¸ü¤üÖ¸ü ŸÖ¸ü»ÖÖê“Ö®Ö ØÃÖÆü(ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): µÖÆü ´ÖÖ×®Ö‹ ×Ûú µÖÆü ‹Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ²Ö›ÍüÖ ™Òêü›ü “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‹Ûú
flourishing trade וÖÃÖ´Öë travel agents †Öî¸ü immigration staff jointly connive
Ûú¸ü Ûêú Æü•ÖÖ¸üÖë »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ²ÖÖÆü¸ü ³Öê•ÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¾ÖÆüÖÑ •ÖÖò²Ö ×´Ö»ÖêÝÖÖ… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú
ו֮֟Öê ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ‹²ÖÎÖê›ü ´Öë Æïü, †Ö•Ö ŸÖÛú ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÖ¾Öì ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ ×Ûú ‹êÃÖê
×ÛúŸÖ®Öê »ÖÖêÝÖ ˆ®Ö ÛÓú™Òüß•ÖÌ ´Öë Æïü †Öî¸ü ×ÛúÃÖ ÆüÖ»ÖÖŸÖ ´Öë ¸üÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü… †³Öß ÃÖïÛú›ÍüÖë »ÖÖêÝÖ ×›ü±ú¸ëü™ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
21
Q.No. 242 (contd)
ÛÓú™Òüß•ÖÌ Ûúß •Öê»ÖÖë ´Öë ¯Ö›Íêü Æïü… µÖÆü ŸÖÖê ×ÃÖ±Ôú ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö ÛúÖ ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †³Öß ×¯Ö”û»Öê
ÃÖÖ»Ö ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö ÃÖê 50 »ÖÖêÝÖ ×¸üÆüÖ Ûú¸üÖ‹ ÝÖ‹… ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ
ÆæÑü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ‹Ñ ×Ûú †³Öß ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê ÛÓú™Òüß•Ö Ûúß •Öê»ÖÖë ´Öë ‹êÃÖê ‡Ó×›üµÖÓÃÖ ¯Ö›Íêü Æïü, •ÖÖê ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹
×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ×»Ö‹ ÝÖ‹ £Öê ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ documents ®ÖÆüà Æïü? ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê »ÖÖêÝÖÖë
Ûúß Æîü»¯Ö Ûúß Æîü? •Ö²Ö µÖæ¸üÖê¯Ö Ûêú ÛÓú™Òüß•ÖÌ •ÖÖò²Ö פü»ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †¯Ö®Öê ®ÖÖò´ÃÖÔ ‡Ô•ÖÌ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ŸÖÖê
ŒµÖÖ Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ˆ®Ö illegal Indians Ûúß ÛúÖê‡Ô Æîü»¯Ö Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü? †ÝÖ¸ü ¾Öê Æîü»¯Ö Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê
•Ö²Ö †³Öß Ã¯Öê®Ö ®Öê ÜÖÖê»ÖÖ £ÖÖ ŸÖÖê ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö Ûêú Ûãú»Ö 5 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü »ÖÖêÝÖ ¯ÖŒÛêú ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹ •Ö²Ö×Ûú
‡Ó×›üµÖÖ Ûêú 10 Æüß Æãü‹, ŸÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü? ŒµÖÖ ‹êÃÖê »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûúß ´Ö¤ü¤ü Ûêú ×»Ö‹
³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÛúß´Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ‹êÃÖê ™Òîü¾Ö»Ö ‹•Öë™ËüÃÖ Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±Ìú †Ö¯Ö®Öê †Ö•Ö ŸÖÛú
ŒµÖÖ ‹Œ¿Ö®Ö ×»ÖµÖÖ Æîü?
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, the scope of the question should not
be expanded. The question was addressed for a particular arrest in
Belgium. That's why, I have given this reply and it is not the whole issue
of illegal migration. (Interruptions)
SARDAR TALOCHAN SINGH: Sir, this is a related issue, not one of
Belgium alone.
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Please, let me complete. Therefore, you
will have to understand. The Parliamentary practice is, I reply to the
question which is asked. You can ask about the whole policy to deal
with illegal immigration or migration. You can discuss that. There is no
problem. I mentioned that it is difficult. Those who want to seek asylum
in other countries -- not asylum but take shelter for job to earn more
money -- they destroy their own identity voluntarily. Therefore, it is not
very easy. So far as the assessment is concerned, according to the
information which I have, roughly about 100 thousand illegal migrants are
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
22
Q.No. 242 (contd)
there in different countries. I am talking mainly about European countries
because once they enter into one European country, it becomes easier
for them to move in all the 27 European countries. Roughly, the number
is 100 thousand. In Germany, it is about ten thousand. In Spain, it is five
thousand. I can give the whole list but, it will take time. I can lay it on
the Table of the House. We also discovered another route. Yes, it is true
that sometimes these types of mishaps take place. Very recently, we
had to deal with a ship consisting of illegal migrants. They were trying to
go to Spain because Spanian laws are more liberal. So, Spain becomes
a transfer point. From Spain, they want to go to other countries. Now, it
has become a practice to go to African coast and from there, to go to
Spain and from Spain, they can go anywhere. These people have found
out various mechanisms. In collaboration with the two Ministries, which I
have referred, we are trying to tackle this problem.
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü…
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü: ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ×¾Ö«üÖ®Ö ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ‹Ûú
¯Öæ¿®Ö ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ… ´Öê¸üÖ µÖÆü ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö •Ö̸üÖ Ûú™ãü ŸÖÖê ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö µÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖü ÃÖŸµÖ Æîü…
•ÖîÃÖÖ ¾ÖÖê¸üÖ •Öß ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú •ÖÖê †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔ™ÒüßµÖ ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü ÛúÖµÖ´Ö Æîü, וÖÃÖ´Öë 15 »ÖÖêÝÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü
ÃÖÖœÍêü 15 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ¯ÖÖˆÓ›ü ŸÖÛú Ûúß Ûúß´ÖŸÖ ¾ÖÃÖæ»Öß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü, †ÝÖ¸ü ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö Ûêú
†×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ¸üÆêü Æïü ŸÖÖê ÃÖ´³Ö¾ÖŸÖ: ¾ÖÆü ¯ÖÏÖ¯ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü‡Ô ÆüÖêÝÖß, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï ‹Ûú
ÃÖß×´ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ †Öî¸ü ÁÖ´Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô
coordination mechanism Æîü, וÖÃÖÃÖê registered recruiting agents Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë--
×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ÝÖ׸ü´ÖÖ ÛúÖ ³Öß ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Æîü ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÖ£Öß ‡ÃÖê †®µÖ£ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà
»ÖëÝÖê… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûú²ÖæŸÖ¸ü²ÖÖ•Öß, human
trafficking Ûêú ´ÖÖ´Ö»Öê ´Öë ÃÖ×´´Ö×»ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹ Æïü… ‡ÃÖ´Öë TRS Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Öß ³Öß ÃÖ×´´Ö×»ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
23
Q.No. 242 (contd)
Æïü… ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÛúÖê‡Ô •ÖÖÑ“Ö Æãü‡Ô? ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö
ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú •ÖÖê ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü ‡ÃÖ Ûú²ÖæŸÖ¸ü²ÖÖ•Öß ´Öë ¯ÖÛú›Íêü ÝÖ‹, וÖÃÖÃÖê ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ÝÖ׸ü´ÖÖ
ÛúÖê ‘Ö™üÖµÖÖ, ו֮ÆüÖë®Öê human trafficking ´Öë ¬µÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... µÖÆü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü
...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ¯Öæ”û »Öë…
(1‹“Ö/‹“Ö0‹´Ö0‹ÃÖ0 ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)
MKS-HMS/11.35/1H ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü: ÃÖ¸ü, ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æüß ¯Öæ”û ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓüü… ‡®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯Öæ”ûŸÖÖ”û Æãü‡Ô, •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß
Æãü‡Ô, ŸÖÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú •ÖÖê ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ‡ÃÖ ´ÖÖ´Ö»Öê ´Öë ¯ÖÛú›Íêü
ÝÖ‹, ˆ®ÖÛúß •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûêú ŒµÖÖ ®ÖŸÖß•Öê Æïü?
SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as the last part of the question
is concerned, the hon. Member is aware of it that those who are
involved in are Members of Lok Sabha. The hon. Speaker appointed a
Committee. On the basis of the findings of that Committee, as Leader
of that House, I had to move a Resolution for the expulsion of that
Member concerned from that House. In a couple of other cases, still
the Committee is looking into it. This is very unfortunate. It should not
have happened. But, unfortunately, it has happened. And, thereafter, of
course, the law of the land will take place. But so far as the Parliament
is concerned, this measure has already been taken.
As regards the second question, yes, there is a coordination
mechanism, and we are trying to impress upon them that you must
strictly enforce it. Very recently, a large number of Indians have gone to
the Gulf countries. And with the cooperation of the State Governments,
from where these persons are coming, and with the cooperation of the
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
24
Q.No. 242 (contd)
country concerned, we have ensured that they are released. Their law
is a bit stringent. They were in jail. We took the initiative, and they
have been released one time. Benefit has been given to them; they
have been released; they have been allowed to come back. Measures
of this type are constantly being taken, but the problem is really serious.
(Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
25
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
26
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
27
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
28
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
29
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
30
¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓܵÖÖ 243
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Ûú´Öß¿Ö®Ö Ûúß •ÖÖê »Öê™êüÙü ׸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü waste water management Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë †Ö‡Ô £Öß, ˆÃÖ´Öë
×»ÖÜÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú only 30 per cent of waste water released in Indian rivers
and lakes is being treated. †Öî¸ü †³Öß ³Öß 70 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü †®Ö-™Òüß™êü›ü ¾ÖêÙü ˆ®Ö´Öë •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ
Æîü וÖÃÖÛêú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ •ÖÆüÖÓ ¾ÖÂÖÔ 1999 ´Öë ²Öüß׸üµÖ»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö 48 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü Æãü†Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ
ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü 53 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú •ÖÆüÖÓ
¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖפüµÖÖë ´Öë ¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ Ûúß ´ÖÖ¡ÖÖ ²ÖœÍü ¸üÆüß Æîü, ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ×•ÖÃÖê ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ
®Ö¤üß ÛúÖ ¤ü•ÖÖÔ ³Öß ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß «üÖ¸üÖ ×¤üµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë ³Öß ¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô Ûú´Öß
®ÖÆüà †Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, †Ö•Ö ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ®Ö¯Öã¸ü ´Öë ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ Æîü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆüÖÓ
ÛúÖ ¯ÖÖ®Öß ®ÖÆüÖ®Öê Ûêú µÖÖêÝµÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüÖ Æîü…
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ¯Öæ×”û‹…
ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤æÓüÝÖÖ ¾ÖÆü ˆ¢Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¤êü
¯ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ £ÖÖê›ÍüßÃÖß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤êü®ÖÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü…
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ®ÖÆüà, ¤êü×ÜÖ‹, our time is very precious. Please put the
supplementaries.
ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ¾ÖîóÖÖ×®ÖÛúÖë Ûêú ´ÖãŸÖÖײÖÛú ŸÖ£ÖÖ ¾Ö»›Ôü Æîü»£Ö †ÖòÝÖÔ®ÖÖ‡•Öê¿Ö®Ö Ûêú †¬µÖµÖ®Ö
ÃÖê ²Öüß׸üµÖ»Ö ÛúÖˆÓ™ü ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß ´Öë 4 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÝÖãÞÖÖ ÃÖê 10 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÝÖãÞÖÖ ³Öß “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîüü… ‡ÃÖ
ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ †®ÖêÛú ²Öß´ÖÖ׸üµÖÖÓ •ÖîÃÖê ÛúÖò»Ö¸üÖ, Æîü¯Öß™üևיüÃÖ ±îú»Ö ¸üÆüß Æïü…
ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ŒµÖÖ Æîü?
ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú ‡®Ö ÃÖ´ÖõÖÖ†Öë ÃÖê ×®Ö¯Ö™ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ - ¾ÖÆüÖÓ
¯ÖÖ®Öß ´Öë ²Öüß׸üµÖÖ•Ö ÛîúÃÖê Ûú´Ö ÆüÖë, ÛîúÃÖê ‡®Ö ®ÖפüµÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ Ûú´Ö ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Ö¯Ö
ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü? ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¤êü®Öê ÃÖê Ûãú”û ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü
‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤ëü?
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
31
Q.No. 243 (contd)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the hon. Minister replies, I would like to
request the hon. Members that supplementaries are intended to follow
from the main question, and supplementaries are questions, not
statements. We take too much of our precious time in the preliminary
statement. Please go ahead, Sir. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, long answers also take a lot of time.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, please tell the Minister also.
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ®Öê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™ËüÃÖÔ
ÛúÖ Æü¾ÖÖ»ÖÖ ¤êüŸÖê Æãü‹ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ¯Öæ”ûÖ Æîü… ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ¾ÖÂÖÔ ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü Œ¾ÖÖ×»Ö™üß ‡®Ö
‡Ó×›üµÖÖ ¯Ö¸ü ‹Ûú Ùêü™ËüÃÖ ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ×®ÖÛúÖ»ÖŸÖÖ Æî וÖÃÖ Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü ²ÖÖò›üß•Ö ×•Ö®Ö ´Öë
®ÖפüµÖÖÓ, ôÖᯙ †Öî¸ü ™ïüŒÃÖ †ÖŸÖê Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúß ×ãÖ×ŸÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ‡Ô ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡®ÆüÖë®Öê specially
bacterial contamination Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ¯Öæ”ûÖ £ÖÖ ×•ÖÃÖÛúß ×ãÖ×ŸÖ Æü´Ö ®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖ ¤üß Æîü…
(1 •Öê/Ûêú‹»Ö•Öß ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)
1J/KLG-TMV/11.40
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛú®Öê ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸üß
®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö ׸ü¾Ö¸ü ÛÓú•Ö¸ü¾Öê¿Ö®Ö ÃÛúß´Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü… ¯ÖÆü»Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖ껵Öã¿Ö®Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü Ûúß •ÖÖê Ùü›üß•Ö
†ÖŸÖß Æïü, ˆÃÖÛêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ÃÖÖ¸üß µÖÖê•Ö®ÖÖ‹Ó ²Ö®ÖŸÖß Æïü… Ùêü™ü ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ËüÃÖ †¯Ö®Öê
›ü߯Ö߆ָü‹ÃÖ ²Ö®ÖÖŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü ו֮֟Öß †×ÃÖÙëüÃÖ ²Ö®ÖŸÖß Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ¤êüŸÖß Æî, ´ÖÝÖ¸ü
“ÖæÓ×Ûú µÖÆü Ùêü™ü ÃÖ²•Öꌙü Æîü ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü, This is a State subject. It is the responsibility
of the State Government. We are also supplementing from the
Government of India.
ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÃÖê ´Öï ÃÖÆü´ÖŸÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü
¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ®ÖפüµÖÖë ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯ÖÖ껵Öã¿Ö®Ö »ÖÖê›ü Æîü ¾ÖÆü 33 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Æîü, •Ö²Ö×Ûú Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú
¯ÖÖÃÖ ´Öë ™Òüß™ü´Öë™ü Ûîú¯Öê×ÃÖ™üß Ûêú¾Ö»Ö 7 Æü•ÖÖ¸ ü‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Ûúß Æîü…
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
32
Q.No. 243 (contd)
ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ, •ÖîÃÖÖ
´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê þÖßÛúÖ¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü µÖÆüÖÓ ‡¬Ö¸ü 33 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Ûúßü ¯ÖÖ껵Öã¿Ö®Ö
¯Öî¤üÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûúß ÝÖÓ¤üÝÖß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüà Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ Ûêú¾Ö»Ö 7 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÛúÖ µÖÆü ×ÃÖÙü´Ö Æîü, ŸÖÖê
ŒµÖÖ ‡ÃÖ´Öë µÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú †ÖÝÖê ÛúÖµÖÔ ÛúÖê ²ÖœÍüÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹? ´Öï µÖÆü ´ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ
ÆæÑü ×Ûú µÖÆü ‹Ûú ÃÖŸÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ´Öë, וÖÃÖê ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ
“ÖãÛúÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë †³Öß ³Öß ÛúÖ®Ö¯Öã¸ü, Ûú®®ÖÖî•Ö, ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ»Öß ®Ö¤üß µÖ´Öã®ÖÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ÝÖÓ¤êü ®ÖÖ»ÖÖë
ÛúÖ ¯ÖÖ®Öß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‘Ö¸êü»Öæ Ûú“Ö¸üÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛú®Öê Ûúê ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ¯ÖϵÖÖÃÖ ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ
¸üÆüê Æïü? ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ׯ֔û»Öê ‹Ûú ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü? Æü´Ö Ûú²Ö ŸÖÛú µÖÆü ˆ´´Öߤü
Ûú¸ëü ×Ûú ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ÆüÖê®Öê Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ÛúÖ ¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ´Öï
•ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ…
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÝÖÓÝÖÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ±úÙÔü ±êúÃÖ, ÃÖêÛëú›ü ±êúÃÖ “Ö»Öê Æïü
†Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ´ÖÖÙ•Ö®Ö»Ö ‡´¯ÖÏæ¾Ö´Öë™ü ³Öß Æãü†Ö Æîü… ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÛúÖê ÜÖã¤ü µÖÆü •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß Æîü ×Ûú
´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê 4 ®Ö¾ÖÓ²Ö¸ü ÛúÖê ‹Ûú ²ÖîšüÛú »Öß †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö
׸ü¾Ö¸ü ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ×¸ü¾Ö¸ü ²Öê×ÃÖ®Ö †£ÖÖê׸ü™üß ×ÛÎú‹™ü Ûú¸ü®Öê ÛúÖ ±îúÃÖ»ÖÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ… ÜÖã¤ü
¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ˆÃÖÛúß †¬µÖõÖŸÖÖ Ûú¸ëüÝÖê… ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ‹•Ö ‹ ÆüÖê»Öê×ÙüÛú ¾Öê ´Öë ‡ÃÖ´Öë °»Ö›ü ´Öî®Öê•Ö´Öë™ü
³Öß ÆüÖê, ÃÖÙêü®Öê²Ö»Ö µÖæÃÖ ³Öß ÆüÖê, ¯ÖÖ껵Öã¿Ö®Ö ‹²Öê™ü´Öë™ü ³Öß ÆüÖêÓ, ˆÃÖÛúß ¯Ö¸üõÖã‹®ÃÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ²Öê×ÃÖ®Ö Æïü,
ˆ®ÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ “Öß±ú ÃÖêÛÎêú™ü¸üß•Ö »Öê¾Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß ´ÖßØ™üÝÖ ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúß Æîü †Öî¸ü †ÖÝÖê ´ÖãܵÖ- ´ÖÓסֵÖÖë Ûúß ³Öß
²ÖîšüÛú Ûúß •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖ×Ûú ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÆüÖê»Öê×ÙüÛú ¾Öê ´Öë »ÖêÛú¸ü ×ÛúÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÛúÖ´Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ
•ÖÖ‹, ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü ÆüÖê †Öî¸ü †³Öß µÖÆü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ‹Œ¿Ö®Ö ¯»ÖÖ®Ö ´Öë †Öî¸ü ®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö ׸ü¾Ö¸ü ÃÛúß´Ö ´Öë Æü´Ö ‡®ÖÛúÖê
¯ÖîÃÖÖ ¤êü ¤ëü… ›ü߯Ö߆ָü‹ÃÖ Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ´ÖÓ•Öæ¸ü ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúß Æïü †Öî¸ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ´Öë “ÖÖ¸ü Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß
Ûîú¯Öê×ÃÖ™üß Æü´Ö®Öê †³Öß ŸÖÛú Ûú¸ü ¤üß Æîü †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê µÖÆ ü¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ÝÖê¯Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë 999 ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß ÛúÖ
ÛúÖ´Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… Æü´Ö ÆüÖê¯Ö±ãú»Öß ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ×´Ö»Ö•Öã»Ö Ûú¸ü ‡ÃÖ ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ÃÖÖ±ú Ûú¸ü®Öê
ÛúÖ ¯ÖϵÖÖÃÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… þֵÖÓ ¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‡®Öß×ÃÖ‹×™ü¾Ö »Öê ¸üÆêü Æïü…
SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: Sir, the CPCB studies indicate that
the waste water generation in urban India has more than doubled in the
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
33
Q.No. 243 (contd)
last ten years and yet the Minister has himself accepted that the
capacity to treat this has actually fallen from 39 per cent to 24 per cent.
This is quite alarming because we have not kept pace with the growing
urbanisation in terms of dealing with our waste water. There are certain
lacunae in our laws which also point towards this negligence. For
instance, it is not mandatory in India for the municipal bodies to release
only treated waste water into our water bodies. So, would the Minister
consider any amendment in the Water Act of 1974 to ensure that the
CPCB has a say in terms of water that is released and in terms of
withholding funds released to the municipal bodies unless they release
treated water? ( 1Ûêú/›üß‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)
1k/11.45/DS-VK
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ: ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ Æüß †“”ûÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖŸÖÖ
Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü Ùêü™ü ÃÖ²•Öü Æîü… ‹Ûú ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü ‹Œ™ü Æüß Æîü וÖÃÖÛúß
וִ´Öê¤üÖ¸üß ³Öß State Governments †Öî¸ü Local Bodies Ûúß Æîü ×Ûú ¾Öê ®ÖפüµÖÖë, ôÖß»ÖÖë
†Öî¸ü Water Bodies ÛúÖê Œ»Öß®Ö ¸üÜÖëÝÖê… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü supplement Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü…
(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ŸÖÖê ¯Öæ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß Æîü, ×ÛúÃÖß ‹Ûú Ùêü™ü Ûúß ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà Æîü…
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ: µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ •Öºþ ¸ü Æîü ×Ûú ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö ´Öë Ûãú”û ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸ü ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ®Öê Ûúß •Öºþ ¸üŸÖ
Æîü… Water Bodies Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öëú Environment Protection Actü ´Öë ³Öß Ûãú”û
directions פüµÖê •ÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü… ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÏßÖÖ¾Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ †³Öß ®ÖÆüà
Æîü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ®Öê •ÖÖê ´Öã§üÖ ˆšüÖµÖÖ, µÖÆü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ÛúÖ×²Ö»Ö Æîü…
•ÖÆüÖÑ ŸÖÛú funds ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, Jawaharlal Nehru Renewable Mission ¤êü¿Ö
Ûêú ÃÖÖ¸êü ²Ö›Íêü ™üÖˆ®ÃÖ ´Öë “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ×¸ü¾Ö ü̧ ´Öë ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö-”û: ‹êÃÖê ²Ö›Íêü ™üÖˆ®ÃÖ Æïü וִ֮Öë ‡ÃÖ
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
34
Q.No. 243 (contd)
¯ÖîÃÖê ÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü †Öî¸ü State
Governments ÛúÖê ³Öß ‡ÃÖÛúÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÃÖê •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÃÖ¤ãü¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ
ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü, State Governments †Öî¸ü Municipalities, ÃÖ²Ö Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…
DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, when I was a Member of the Public Accounts
Committee as Lok Sabha MP, we visited a number of major rivers under
execution under this scheme. I have got some experience of it when it
was under execution. According to the reply of the hon. Minister, the
Ganga Action Plan was launched in 1985. Now more than 22 years
have passed. The reply further says that 35 other rivers have also been
identified under this scheme. What is the stage of the Ganga Action
Plan? The Minister says that it is Phase-1. Are there any more phases?
Then what is the stage of other 35 rivers? I would also like to know
about the Ganga Action Plan. How much is the allocation of funds under
this scheme? What is the timeframe?
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Regarding the Ganga, first and second
mainstream rivers, towns covered - 73; States covered - 5. We have
sanctioned Rs. 1026 crores and the amount released by the Government
of India is Rs. 825 crores. The total number of schemes sanctioned
for the Ganga is 572, out of that 445 have been completed. The work is
going on. We are releasing funds to the State Governments as per the
DPRs.
ÁÖß Ûú´ÖÖ»Ö †ÜŸÖ¸ü: ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü
×Ûú ÃÖ²Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ÝÖÓÝÖÖ †³Öß ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ו֮֟ÖÖ ³Öß
¯ÖϤæüÂÖÞÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ˆÃÖ´Öë ×´Ö»Ö®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öß ®ÖפüµÖÖë µÖÖ ®ÖÖ»ÖÖë ÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê
•Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ´Öë ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 20 ¸üÖ•µÖÖë ´Öë 164 ¿ÖÆü¸üÖë Ûúß 35 ®ÖפüµÖÖë Ûúß ¯ÖÆü“ÖÖ®Ö Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü •ÖÖê
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
35
Q.No. 243 (contd)
ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¯ÖϤæü×ÂÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æïü… ´Öï ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Æü׸ü«üÖ¸ü ÃÖê •Ö²Ö ÝÖÓÝÖÖ
×®ÖÛú»ÖŸÖß Æîü ŸÖÖê †ÝÖ¸ü ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ˆÃÖ´Öë ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ÝÖ•Ö¸üÖî»ÖÖ Ûúß †ÖîªÖê×ÝÖÛú
‡ÛúÖ‡µÖÖÑ, •ÖÖê ²ÖÝÖ¤ü ®Ö¤üß Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ¯Ö›ÍüŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê
164 ¿ÖÆü¸üÖë ´Öë ‡®Ö 35 ®ÖפüµÖÖë Ûúß ¯ÖÆü“ÖÖ®Ö Ûúß Æîü, ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Ö´Öë ²ÖÝÖ¤ü ®Ö¤üß ³Öß ¿ÖÖ×´Ö»Ö Æîü?
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Whether a particular river is there or not, I
will give this reply to the hon. Member. But the NRCP work is going on.
Sir, I will send the reply to the Member.
ÁÖß Ûú´ÖÖ»Ö †ÜŸÖ¸ü: ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü Half-an-Hour discussion ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúÖ
Æîü…ü †³Öß ¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß Ûúß †Öê¸ü ÃÖê -- ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ×Ûú ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… †ÝÖ¸
וÖÃÖ ®Ö¤üß ÃÖêü ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖß ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ®ÖÆüà ×»ÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ- ´Öï ÝÖÖ¸Óü™üß Ûêú
ÃÖÖ£Ö ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ˆÃÖê ®ÖÆüà ×»ÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö ÛúºþÑÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ˆÃÖÛúÖê »Öê »Öë…
(1Lú/‹Ûêú‹ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê) AKA/RG/1L/11:50
ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê Æü´Ö®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ×Ûú Ganga River basin ÛúÖê cover Ûú¸ü®Öê
Ûúß revamping scheme “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü, •ÖÖê ³Öß ÝÖÓÝÖÖ Ûúß tributaries ÆüÖëÝÖß, †ÝÖ¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ®ÖÆüà Æïü,
they will all be covered.
SHRI Y.P. TRIVEDI: Sir, I will not make a statement. I will straight away
come to the supplementary.
In the context of what is being discussed, would the Government
seriously consider implementation of the old proposal, of linking the major
rivers of the country, of what was popularly called as Garland Canal Project?
Bringing the waters of Ganges right up to Cauvery, it will have an effect of
reducing the river pollution.
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, it is a good supplementary. But the
hon. Minister should address it to the concerned Minister.
(Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
36
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
37
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
38
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
39
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
40
¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓܵÖÖ : 244
›üÖ0 ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ®Öê •ÖÖê ¾ÖŒŸÖ¾µÖ ¸üÜÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÃÖê Ûãú”û
²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖÖ±ú ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖß… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ¾ÖÂÖÔ ´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ¸êüÜÖÖ Ûêú ®Öß“Öê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê »ÖÖêÝÖ Æïü, ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß †ÖµÖ
ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ×ÛúÃÖ ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, µÖê ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÃÖê ˆšü ¸üÆêü Æïü… ŒµÖÖë×Ûú, ׯ֔û»Öê
פü®ÖÖë þÖÖãµÖ ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ Ûúß ŸÖ¸ü±ú ÃÖê ÃÖã¯ÖÏß´Ö ÛúÖê™Ôü ´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 1999 †Öî¸ü 2000
Ûúß Ûúß´ÖŸÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü All India level ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß ¸êüÜÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü 327.56 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ´ÖÖÆü ÝÖÏÖ´ÖßÞÖ
õÖê¡ÖÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Öî¸ü 454.11 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ´ÖÖÆü ¿ÖÆü¸üß õÖê¡ÖÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ Æîü… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö µÖÆü Æîü
×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö פü»»Öß ´Öë 15-16 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¸üÖê•Ö Ûú´ÖÖŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ Ûêú ®Öß“Öê Æïü…
´Öï µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ‡®Ö 15-16 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ´Öë ÛúÖî®Ö ÃÖÖ consumption ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü?
†Ö¤ü´Öß ÜÖÖ®ÖÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÜÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ… †Ö¯Ö calorie intake Ûêú ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ׸üŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü,
»Öê×Ûú®Ö ¾ÖÆü ÜÖÖ®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ÜÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü Ûú¯Ö›Íêü ®ÖÆüà ¯ÖÆü®Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü •ÖæŸÖê ®ÖÆüà ¯ÖÆü®Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ,
¾ÖÆü ²Ö““ÖÖë ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖ ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú 15 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛúß Ûãú»Ö †Ö´Ö¤ü®Öß Æîü… ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê µÖÆü
•ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ¸êüÜÖÖ ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö ŒµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ×±ú¸ü †Ö¯Ö ×ÛúÃÖ ¸üÖßÖê
ÃÖê ˆÃÖÛúÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ׸üŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ×ÃÖ±Ôú sample survey Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö
ŒµÖÖ Æîü, ¾Öê ×ÛúÃÖ †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ÆüÖêŸÖê Æïü, ÛîúÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ µÖÆü ³Öß Æîü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö
inflation Ûêú ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ³Öß ‹›ü•ÖÙü Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö®Öê †•ÖãÔ®Ö ÃÖê®Ö ÝÖ㯟ÖÖ Ûúß
׸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ÛúÖ †¬µÖµÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü? †¯Ö®Öê ‹Ûú ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß µÖÆü ׸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü Æîü, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ
׸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü Æîü… ŸÖÖê µÖÆü ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ´Ö•ÖÌÖÛú ŒµÖÖë Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü? †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü
פüÜÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ×ÃÖ±Ôú 25-26 Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ÝÖ¸üß²Ö Æïü, †ÃÖ×»ÖµÖŸÖ ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖë ×”û¯ÖÖ®ÖÖ
“ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ÃÖ““ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö®Öê ¤üßו֋, •ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß ×¯Ö”û»Öê 60 ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë Æü´Ö ®ÖÆüà
×´Ö™üÖ ÃÖÛêú Æïü, ¾ÖÆü ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ¯»ÖÖØ®ÖÝÖ Ûú´Öß¿Ö®Ö ¾ÖÝÖî¸üÆü Ûúß •ÖÖê ÃÖÖ¸üß
×¾Ö±ú»ÖŸÖÖ‹Ó Æïü, ¾Öê ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹…
MR. CHAIRMAN: Let your supplementary be answered.
›üÖ0 ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öê¸üÖ †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×®Ö¾Öê¤ü®Ö Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö ïÖ™ü ²ÖÖŸÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ‹Ó ×Ûú ¤êü¿Ö
´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÛúÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ´ÖÖ®Ö¤Óü›ü ÆüÖê®Öê “ÖÖ×Æü‹, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö¤Óü›ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
41
Q.No. 244 (contd)
†³Öß ŸÖÛú ²Ö®ÖÖ‹ Æïü, ŒµÖÖ ¾Öê ÃÖÆüß Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÖÛêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²ÖÖë Ûúß ÃÖÓܵÖÖ ×ÛúŸÖ®Öß
ÆüÖê®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹?
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, the hon. senior Member has put a very
long list of supplementaries relating to poverty line. Sir, the poverty line
in our country is being assessed on the basis of household consumption
expenditure by every household. And it is not on the basis of dollar
rate that is prevailing at the international market...
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: I have not said it...(Interruptions)
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: He is not answering the supplementary put
by the hon. Member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please don't interrupt...(Interruptions) Allow the
supplementary to be answered.
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I have just started the reply. The
Government appointed a committee under Dr. D.T. Lakadwala. He went
into the suggestions made by the Expert Group. The Expert Group
submitted its Report to the Government...(Interruptions)
SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH: When was it?
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: That was in 1997. They submitted a
report. Sorry; it was 1993. The Report was submitted in
1997...(Interruptions) (Continued by 1M)
TDB-VNK/1M/11.55
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, what is this? The hon. Minister
should give us the correct date. He should give us one date.
...(Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Saab, this is not helping matters.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
42
Q.No. 244 (contd)
›üÖ. ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü? Sir, the House cannot be held
to ransom like this. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I am just answering. The National
Sample Survey Organisation does the survey. On the basis of the
survey, they submit a report to the Planning Commission. Sir, I would
like to submit that the percentage of the number of the people living
below the poverty line at the national and State level, in urban and rural
areas, is being worked out in our country. It is not like the western
countries. Sir, the hon. Member wanted to know about the percentage
of this. According to 2004-05...(Interruptions)...
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I have asked...(Interruptions)... Sir,
this is not fair. ...(Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Saab, you have to ask the second supplementary
also...(Interruptions)...
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister has every right to
reply, but not a right to confuse the House. If he has the right to
confuse, then, we are getting nowhere with this. ...(Interruptions)... What
is this? ...(Interruptions)... The hon. Minister cannot confuse the country.
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ¾ÖéÓ¤üÖ ÛúÖ¸üŸÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ²Ö߯Öß‹»Ö fraud Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please...(Interruptions)... Please, your turn is coming.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: It is the destitution line. ...(Interruptions)... It
is the destitution line. ...(Interruptions)... It is a shame for our country.
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister must make a clear-
cut reply. Sir, I have asked a very specific question. I have not said that
it is just on the basis of the western countries. I have said that you
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
43
Q.No. 244 (contd)
judge it on the basis of the calorie intake. I said that you have judged it
on the basis of the sample survey. On that basis, I have asked certain
question. Please answer them directly. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I am answering them.
...(Interruptions)... Sir, there is a confusion on the question of poverty
line. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI TAPAN KUMAR SEN: By that time, the Question Hour will be
over.
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I would like to clarify that the poverty
line is different and assessing the poor is different. That is being done
by the Rural Development Ministry. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, he is confusing the House.
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, what is this? Sir, he is again
confusing the House. ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ×¿Ö¾ÖÖ®Ö®¤ü ן־ÖÖ¸üß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡ÃÖ ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü special discussion Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖ ×¤üµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Have the patience to hear me.
...(Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, let the Minister reply. ...(Interruptions)...
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the Planning Commission says one
thing; the Ministry of Health says something else. ...(Interruptions)...
MR. CHAIRMAN: This is not fair. ...(Interruptions)...
Please...(Interruptions)... The Leader of the House wishes to intervene.
ÁÖß ×¿Ö¾ÖÖ®Ö®¤ü ן־ÖÖ¸üß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, µÖÆü ÝÖÓ³Ö߸ü ´ÖÃÖ»ÖÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü special discussion
ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
44
Q.No. 244 (contd)
DR. MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chairman, Sir, there are several ways in
which poverty can be measured, and particular reference to the World
Bank Study is a Report by two distinguished scholars, that is not the
methodology which is used by the Planning Commission. We have,
every five years, a large sample of the National Sample Survey. That is
the basis for calculating the consumption poverty on the head count
basis, and that is the poverty line which is in terms of the basket of
goods and services which would enable a person to consume 2400
calories in the rural areas and 2100 calories in the urban areas. As
prices change, this is also taken into account.
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: It means that you don't take into
account any other consumption, except the calories. ...(Interruptions)...
But, the human body does not only consume calories, he has to clothe
himself, he has to provide something to his family also, and not even to
the family, the basic requirement of medicines for him, and then,
education for himself and his children, the house rent, electricity, etc.
What should, therefore, be the total consumption? Is it calorie alone?
...(Interruptions)... Is it calorie alone?
DR. MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chairman, Sir, there can be, I think, many
measures of poverty. I am not saying that this is the only measure of
poverty, but this has been a measure which has been certified by an
expert committee under Prof. D.T. Lakadwala. Further, the refinements
are possible, and Dr. Suresh Tendulkar Committee is looking into this
matter.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
45
Q.No. 244 (contd)
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I would like to ask of the Prime
Minister, through you, would he agree that the quantification of the
poverty line today of 329 rupees in the rural areas per adult is a fraud on
the poor people of this country because the entire Government's policy
of providing benefits to the poor is linked to this. And if he agrees that
329 rupees in a growing economy is a fraud, what is the Prime Minister
doing to change it?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am afraid, the Question Hour is over.
(Ends)
kgg/mp/1n/12.00
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair
PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE
SHRI AJAY MAKEN: I lay on the Table a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Annual Report and Accounts of the National Capital Region Planning Board (NCRPB), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts, under section 26 of the National Capital Region Planning Board Act, 1985.
SHRI T.R. BAALU: I lay on the Table-- I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport and Highways (Department of Shipping) Notification G.S.R. 811 (E), dated the 21st November, 2008, publishing the Kolkata Port Trust Employees (Medical Attendance and Treatment) Amendment Regulations, 2008, under sub-section (4) of section 124 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963.
II. (1) A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 5(E) of the Dock Workers (Regulation of Employment) Act, 1948 :-
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
46
(a) Thirty-eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Kandla Dock
Labour Board, Kandla, from 1.4.2006 to 23.1.2007, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Board.
(2) Statement (in English and Hindi) giving reasons for the delay in
laying the papers mentioned at (1) above.
III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:-
(i) (a) Thirty-second Annual Report and Accounts of the Dredging
Corporation of India Limited (DCI), Delhi, for the year 2007-
2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and
the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India
thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation.
(ii) (a) Eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Ennore Port Limited
(EPL), Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the
Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.
IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 106 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963:-
(i)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Visakhapatnam Port Trust,
Visakhapatnam, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
47
(ii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the New Mangalore Port Trust,
Mangalore, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(iii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Mormugao Port Trust,
Mormugao, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(iv)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Kandla Port Trust,
Gandhidham (Gujarat), for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(v)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Jawaharlal Nehru Port
Trust, Navi Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(vi)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Paradip Port Trust,
Paradip, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(vii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Kolkata Port Trust,
Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
V. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under
sub-section (2) of section 103 and section 106 of the Major Port Trusts
Act, 1963:-
(i)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Cochin Port
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
48
Trust, Cochin, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(ii)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Chennai
Port Trust, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
(iii)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Tuticorin
Port Trust, Tuticorin, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
VI. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 102 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963:-
(a) Annual Accounts of the Mumbai Port Trust Pension Fund Trust,
Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's
Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.
VII. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (2) of section 103 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963: -
(i)(a) Annual Accounts of the Kolkata Port Trust, Kolkata, for the year
2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(ii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Jawaharlal Nehru Port Trust, Navi
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
49
Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(iii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Tariff Authority for Major Ports,
Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(iv)(a) Annual Accounts of the New Mangalore Port Trust, Mangalore,
for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(v)
(a) Annual Accounts of the Mormugao Port Trust, Mormugao, for
the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(vi)(a) Annual Accounts of the Visakhapatnam Port Trust,
Visakhapatnam, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report
thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(vii)
(a) Annual Accounts of the Kandla Port Trust, Gandhidham
(Gujarat), for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
50
Report.
(viii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Paradip Port Trust, Paradip, for the
year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
(ix)(a) Annual Accounts of the Mumbai Port Trust, Mumbai, for the
year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.
(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit
Report.
VIII. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Ship Design
and Research Centre (NSDRC), Visakhapatnam, for the year
2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Centre.
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, on behalf of Shri Mani Shankar Aiyar, I lay on the Table
I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:
(i)(a) Twenty-sixth Annual Report and Accounts of the North
Eastern Regional Agricultural Marketing Corporation Limited
(NERAMAC), Guwahati, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the
Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
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51
(ii)(a) Thirty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the North Eastern
Handicrafts and Handlooms Development Corporation Limited
(NEHHDC), Shillong, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the
Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Development of North Eastern Region) and the North Eastern Regional Agricultural Marketing Corporation Limited (NERAMAC), Guwahati, for the year 2008-2009.
KUMARI SELJA: Sir, I lay on the Table
I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Annual Accounts of the Delhi Urban Art Commission (DUAC), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report thereon, under section 20(4) of the Delhi Urban Art Commission Act, 1973.
II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:
(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Building Materials and
Technology Promotion Council (BMTPC), New Delhi, for the
year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Council.
(ii)(a) Eighteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the Central
Government Employees Welfare Housing Organisation, New
Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report
on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above
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52
Organisation.
(iii)(a) Fifty-fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Hindustran Prefab
Limited (HPL), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.
5. SHRI G.K.VASAN to lay on the Table a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(a) Seventy-sixth Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian
Statistical Institute (ISI), Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute.
SHRI K.H.MUNIYAPPA: Sir, I lay on the Table :-
I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of
the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport & Highways (Department of
Road Transport and Highways), under section 10 of the National
Highways Act, 1956:—
(1) S.O. 524 (E), dated the 18th March, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 206 (E), dated the 11th February, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(2) S.O. 790 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 40.000 to Km. 62.290 (Hyderabad – Vijaywada Section) on National Highway No. 9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.
(3) S.O. 796 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute
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53
certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.
(4) S.O. 798 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.
(5) S.O. 805 (E), dated the 3rd April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1818 (E), dated 25th October, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original notification.
(6) S.O. 814 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 107.100 to Km. 273.500 (Gurgaon-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 8 in the State of Rajasthan.
(7) S.O. 815 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 108.000 to Km.173.350 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Vadodara District in the State of Gujarat.
(8) S.O. 816 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 218.400 to Km. 263.400 (Bharuch-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.
(9) S.O. 832 (E), dated the 9th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 347.600 to Km. 364.000 (Jaipur – Kishangarh Section) on National Highway No. 8 in Ajmer District in the State of Rajasthan.
(10) S.O. 834 (E), dated the 9th April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.
(11) S.O. 850 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 190.600 to Km. 221.500 (Hyderabad –Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No. 9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.
(12) S.O. 851 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 62.290 to Km.
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54
126.750 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.
(13) S.O. 852 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding authorisation
of Competent Authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No.18 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(14) S.O. 853 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 29.000 to Km. 34.000 (from Monacharra Bazar to Aenakhal) (Dhaleshwari Bhairabi road) on National Highway No. 154 for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam along with delay statement.
(15) S.O. 875 (E), dated the 15th April, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 1766 (E), dated the 17th October, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(16) S.O. 927 (E), dated the 24th April, 2008, publishing
Corrigendum to Notification No. 1316 (E), dated the 1st August, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(17) S.O. 928 (E), dated the 24th April, 2008, publishing
Corrigendum to Notification No.1318 (E), dated the 1st August, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(18) S.O. 939 (E), dated the 25th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of
land, with or without structure, from Km. 344.000 to Km. 345.000 (Chittorgarh-Kota Section) on National Highway No. 76 in Buddi District in the State of Rajasthan.
(19) S.O. 1029 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 601 (E), dated 19th May, 2004, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(20) S.O. 1030 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 0.000 to Km. 22.000 (Daboka-Lanka Section) on National Highway No.54 in
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55
Nagaon District in the State of Assam. (21) S.O. 1031 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 241.000 to Km. 262.725 on National Highway No.37 and Nagaon Bypass starting at Km. 262.725 of National Highway No. 37 crossing National Highway No. 36 at Km. 5.000 and ending at Km. 280.570 of National Highway No. 37 in Nagaon District in the State of Assam.
(22) S.O. 1091 (E), dated the 6th May, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 645 (E), dated 31st May, 2004, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(23) S.O. 1100 (E), dated the 5th May, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(24) S.O. 1101 (E), dated the 5th May, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 815 (E), dated the 25th May, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(25) S.O. 1113 (E), dated the 8th May, 2008, regarding acquisition of
land, with or without structure, from km.287.900 to km.379.000 (Jhansi–Lakhanadon Section) on National Highway No.26 in Narsinghpur District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(26) S.O. 1114 (E), dated the 8th May, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.379.000 to km.405.770 (Jhansi–Lakhanadon Section) on National Highway No.26 in Seoni District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(27) 1163 (E), dated the 16th May, 2008, regarding declaration of new National Highways in the State of Arunachal Pradesh.
(28) S.O. 1176 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, regarding
authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
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56
(29) S.O. 1177 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, regarding authorization of officer for acquisition of land from Km. 0.00 to Km. 8.00 on National Highway No.40 in Kamrup (Metro) District in the State of Assam.
(30) S.O. 1178 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 221 (E), dated the 10th February, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(31) S.O. 1222 (E), dated the 27th May, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.0.000 to km.14.132 and from km. 20.032 to km 46.479 (Indore - Khalghat Section) on National Highway No.3 in Indore District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(32) S.O. 1401 (E), dated the 9th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.322.400 to km.405.000 (Durg-Nagpur Section) on National Highway No.6 in Rajnandgaon District in the State of Chattisgarh.
(33) S.O. 1428 (E), dated the 10th June, 2008, regarding
authorisation of Competent Authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No. 14 in Ajmer District in the State of Rajasthan.
(34) S.O. 1429(E), dated the 10th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 86.160 to 110.500 (Bharatpur–Mahuwa Section) on National Highway No. 11 in the State of Rajasthan.
(35) S.O. 1438 (E), dated the 12th June, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 1009 (E), dated the 10th November, 2000, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(36) S.O. 1443 (E), dated the 13th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 204.400 to Km. 241.000 (Jagiroad-Thekeraguri Section) on National Highway No.37 in Morigaon District in the State of Assam.
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(37) S.O. 1548 (E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 285.633 to Km. 308.000 (Nagpur – Hyderabad section) on National Highway No. 7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(38) S.O. 1549(E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 429.000 to Km. 447.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No. 7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(39) S.O. 1550(E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 133.000 to Km. 203.000 (Hyderabad-Bangalore Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(40) S.O. 1555 (E), dated the 25th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.118.400 to km.139.000 on National Highway No.3 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(41) S.O. 1556 (E), dated the 25th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.139.000 to km.167.500 (Khalghat – M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(42) S.O. 1557 (E), dated the 25th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.95.300 to km.118.400 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(43) S.O. 1558 (E), dated the 25th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.86.000 to km.95.300 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Khargone District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
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(44) S.O. 1570 (E), dated the 26th June, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O.630 (E), dated the 18th April, 2008, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(45) S.O. 1579 (E), dated the 27th June, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 3.500 Km. to Km. 10.00 on National Highway No. 154 including diversion at Dhaleswari point for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam.
(46) S.O. 1580 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 0.000 to Km. 63.000 on National Highway No.31C in Kokrajhar District in the State of Assam.
(47) S.O. 1581 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 63.000 to 84.00 on National Highway No.31 in Chirang District in the State of Assam.
(48) S.O. 1582 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 1002.00 to Km. 1006.30 on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.
(49) S.O. 1583 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 84.000 to 93.000 on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.
(50) S.O. 1584 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding
authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land, from Km. 961.5000 to 983.00 on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.
(51) S.O. 1629 (E), dated the 7th July, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
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(52) S.O. 1744 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1065.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Nalbari District in the State of Assam.
(53) S.O. 1745 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1065.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Nalbari District in the State of Assam.
(54) S.O. 1746 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1052.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.
(55) S.O. 1747 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding
appointment of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 284.000 to Km. 351.850 on National Highway No. 44 in North Tirpura District in the State of Assam.
(56) S.O. 1748 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 351.850 to Km. 374.000 on National Highway No.44 in Dhalai District in the State of Assam.
(57) S.O. 1836 (E), dated the 24th July, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 120.000 to Km. 228.000 (Mahua-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 11 in Jaipur District in the State of Rajasthan.
(58) S.O. 1871 (E), dated the 29th July, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.82.500 to km.86.000 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Dhar District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(59) S.O. 1873 (E), dated the 29th July, 2008, amending Notification
No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
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(60) S.O. 1874 (E), dated the 29th July, 2008, amending Notification
No. 465 (E), dated the 26th April, 2002, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(61) S.O. 1879 (E), dated the 30th July, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from km.139.000 to km.167.500 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the state of Madhya Pradesh.
(62) S.O. 1910 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 62.290 to Km. 126.750 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(63) S.O. 1911 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(64) S.O. 1912 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(65) S.O. 1917 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1002.00 to Km. 1006.300 (Nalbari -Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.
(66) S.O. 1918 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 983.000 to Km. 1013.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Barpeta District in the State of Assam.
(67) S.O. 1919 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 961.500 to Km.
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983.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.
(68) S.O. 1920 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 84.000 to Km. 93.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.
(69) S.O. 1921 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 0.000 to Km. 9.100 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Kamrup (Rural) District in the State of Assam.
(70) S.O. 1922 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 9.100 to Km. 71.000 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.
(71) S.O. 1923 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 71.000 to Km. 89.150 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No. 52 in Udalguri District in the State of Assam.
(72) S.O. 1924 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition
of land, with or without structure, from Km. 89.150 to Km. 130.000 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Sonipur District in the State of Assam.
(73) S.O. 2028 (E), dated the 12th August, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, from Km. 271.500 to Km. 318.600 on National Highway No.8 in Navsari District in the State of Gujarat.
(74) S.O. 2044 (E), dated the 14th August, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 815 (E), dated 4th April, 2008, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(75) S.O. 2048 (E), dated the 14th August, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.239.000
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to km.282.000 (Sambalpur–Raipur Section) on National Highway No.6 in Raipur District in the State of Chattisgarh.
(76) S.O. 2051 (E), dated the 14th August, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.20.150 to km.52.000 (Gwalior–Jhansi Section) on National Highway No.75 in Gwalior District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(77) S.O. 2079 (E), dated the 20th August, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 275.000 to Km. 304.170 (Tirupati to Andhra Pradesh/Tamil Nadu Border section) on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(78) S.O. 2080 (E), dated the 20th August, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 304.170 to Km. 341.600 (Tirupati to Andhra Pradesh/Tamil Nadu Border Section) on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(79) S.O. 2129 (E), dated the 28th August, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(80) S.O. 2153 (E), dated the 3rd September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km.429.000 to Km. 447.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(81) S.O. 2154 (E), dated the 3rd September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 218.400 to Km. 263.400 (Bharuch-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.
(82) S.O. 2181 (E), dated the 10th September, 2008, regarding
authorization of Competent Authority for building, maintenance, management and operation (Gurgaon-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 8 in the State of Rajasthan.
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(83) S.O. 2196 (E), dated the 15th September, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 120.000 to Km. 228.000 (Mahua-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No.11 in Jaipur District in the State of Rajasthan.
(84) S.O. 2228 (E), dated the 18th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, on National Highway No. 9 from Km. 144.400 to 249.000 (Pune-Solapur Section) in Solapur District in the State of Maharashtra.
(85) S.O. 2231 (E), dated the 18th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.60.000 to km.61.000 (Dholpur–Morena Section) on National Highway No.3 in Morena District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(86) S.O. 2237 (E), dated the 19th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 982.000 to Km. 1041.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No. 31 in Barpeta District in the State of Assam.
(87) S.O. 2246 (E), dated the 22nd September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land from Km. 318.600 to Km. 381.600 on National Highway No. 8 in Valsad District in the State of Gujarat.
(88) S.O. 2258 (E), dated the 23rd September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 35.000 to Km. 38.700 on National Highway No. 154 for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam.
(89) S.O. 2260 (E), dated the 24th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 40.000 to Km. 66.000 (Maibong -Lumding Section) on National Highway No. 54 in Nagaon District in the State of Assam.
(90) S.O. 2274 (E), dated the 25th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 182.200 to Km. 248.875 [Tamil Nadu/Kerala Border (Walayar-Thrissur
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Section)] on National Highway No. 47 in the State of Kerala (91) S.O. 2297 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending
Notification No. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(92) S.O. 2298 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending
Notification No. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.
(93) S.O. 2299 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 815 (E), dated the 25th May, 2007, omitting certain entries in the original Notification.
(94) S.O. 2313 (E), dated the 30th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 173.350 to Km. 218.400 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Bharuch District in the State of Gujarat.
(95) S.O. 2314 (E), dated the 30th September, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 108.000 to Km. 173.350 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Vododara District in the State of Gujarat.
(96) S.O. 2403 (E), dated the 3rd October, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Design Chainage 0.000 to 14.132 and 20.032 to 46.479 (Indore-Khalghat Section) on National Highway No. 3 in District Indore in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(97) S.O. 2426 (E), dated the 1st October, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 285.633 to Km. 308.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
(98) S.O. 2427 (E), dated the 1st October, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 259.778 to Km. 285.633 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.
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(99) S.O. 2440 (E), dated the 13th October, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, from Km. 263.400 to Km. 271.500 on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.
(100) S.O. 2468 (E), dated the 17th October, 2008, publishing
Corrigendum to Notification No. 1401 (E), dated the 9th June, 2008.
(101) S.O. 2477 (E), dated the 17th October, 2008, regarding rate of
fee to be recovered from the users of stretch from Km. 773.000 to 781.000 on National Highway No.4 in Khambatki Ghat between Pune and Satara in the State of Maharashtra.
(102) S.O. 2578 (E), dated the 31st October, 2008, regarding
entrustment of 5 km. stretch of NH-71B as situated in Rajasthan to PWD, Rajasthan for maintenance and development.
(103) S.O. 2601 (E), dated the 5th November, 2008, regarding
acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km. 52.000 to km. 84.800 (Gwalior-Jhansi Section) on National Highway No.75 in Datia District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.
(104) S.O. 2663 (E), dated the 14th November, 2008, regarding
declaration of new National Highways in the States of Tamil Nadu and West Bengal.
(105) S.O. 2834 (E), dated the 2nd December, 2008, regarding
declaration of new National Highways in the State of Himachal Pradesh.
II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following
Notifications of the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport & Highways (Department of Road Transport and Highways), under section 37 of the National Highways Authority of India Act, 1988:- (i) S.O. 795 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding entrustment
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
66
of National Highway stretch from km. 84.700 to km. 167.500 in the State of Madhya Pradesh under NHDP Phase-III to NHAI along with delay statement.
(ii) S.O. 797 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding entrustment of National Highway stretch from km. 0.000 to km. 3.520 in the Union Territory of Puducherry along with delay statement.
SHRI PRITHVIRAJ CHAVAN: Sir, I lay on the Table :-
I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Personnel, Public
Grievances & Pensions (Department of Personnel and Training)
Notification G.S.R. 726 (E), dated the 8th October, 2008, publishing
amendment in the Second Schedule to the Right to Information Act, 2005,
under sub-section (1) of section 29 of the Right to Information Act, 2005.
II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Personnel, Public
Grievances and Pension (Department of Personnel and Training)
Notification G.S.R 74, dated the 6th to 12th May, 2007, publishing the
Central Administrative Tribunal (Senior Principal Private Secretary)
Recruitment Rules, 2007, under sub-section (1) of section 37of the
Administrative Tribunals Act, 1985 along with delay statement.
III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—
(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Antrix Corporation Limited
(ACL), Bangalore, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the
Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
67
(ii)(a) Twenty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Nuclear Power
Corporation of India Limited, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the
comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India
thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(iii)(a) Fifty-eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Rare
Earths Limited, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the
Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(iv)(a) Fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Bharatiya Nabhikiya
Vidyut Nigam Limited, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together
with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of
the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(v)(a) Forty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Electronics
Corporation of India Limited, Hyderabad, for the year
2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts
and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of
India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(vi)(a) Forty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Uranium
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68
Corporation of India Limited (UCIL), Singhbhum, Jharkhand, for
the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor
General of India thereon.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Physical Research
Laboratory (PRL), Ahmedabad, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(ii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Semi-Conductor Laboratory
(SCL), SAS Nagar, Chandigarh, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(iii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Atmospheric
Research Laboratory (NARL), Gadanki, Andhra Pradesh for
the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(iv)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the North Eastern Space
Applications Centre (NE-SAC), Umiam, Meghalaya, for the year
2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b)
Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
69
(v)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Remote Sensing
Agency (NRSA), Hyderabad, for the year 2007-2008, together
with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(vi)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Institute of Space
Science and Technology (IIST), Thiruvananthapuram, for the
year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(vii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Saha Institute of
Nuclear Physics, Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(viii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Institute of Mathematical
Sciences, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(ix)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Harish-Chandra Research
Institute (HRI), Allahabad, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(x) (a) Annual Report of the Tata Memorial Centre, Mumbai, for the
year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
70
Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(xi) (a) Annual Report of the Institute of Physics, Bhubaneswar, for the
year 2007-2008.
(b) Annual Accounts of the Institute of Physics, Bhubaneswar, for the
year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts.
(c) Statement by Government accepting the above Reports.
(xii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Institute for Plasma
Research, Gandhinagar, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(xiii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Atomic Energy Education
Society, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the
Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(xiv) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Civil Services Officers
Institute (CSOI), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with
the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.
(xv)
(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Civil Services Society
(Sanskriti School) (CSS), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
71
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above report.
(xvi) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Grih Kalyan Kendra (GKK),
New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's
Report on the Accounts.
(b) Statement by Government accepting the above report.
8. SHRI S. REGUPATHY to lay on the Table a copy each (in English
and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Plywood Industries Research and Training Institute (IPIRTI), Bangalore, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute.
SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, I lay on the Table :-
I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Environment and Forests, under section 26 of the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986:-
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
72
(1) S.O. 417 (E), dated the 3rd March, 2008, regarding constitution
of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Tamil Nadu.
(2) S.O. 737 (E), dated the 27th March, 2008, regarding
constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA)and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Arunanchal Pradesh.
(3) S.O. 280 (E), dated the 11th April, 2008, publishing the
Environment (Protection) Second Amendment Rules, 2008. (4) S.O. 898 (E), dated the 22nd April, 2008, regarding constitution
of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Maharashtra.
(5) S.O. 899 (E), dated the 22nd April, 2008, regarding constitution
of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Haryana.
(6) S.O. 1539 (E), dated the 24th June, 2008, amending
Notification No. S.O. 489 (E), dated the 30th April 2003, substituting certain entries in the original Notification.
(7) S.O. 768 (E), dated the 4th July, 2008, publishing the
Environment Relief Fund (ERF) Scheme, 2008, under the Public Liability Insurance Act, 1991.
(8) S.O. 1634 (E), dated the 8th July, 2008, regarding constitution
of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Sikkim.
(9) G.S.R. 1720 (E), dated the 18th July, 2008, seeking
amendment in the original Notification No. S.O. 93 (E), dated
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
73
the 29th January, 1998, in order to extend the tenure of the Environment Pollution (Prevention and Control) Authority (CEPCA).
(10) S.O. 1887 (E), dated the 30th July, 2008, regarding
constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA)and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the state of Rajasthan.
(11) S.O. 1888 (E), dated 30th July, 2008, regarding constitution of
State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the state of Delhi.
II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification S.O. 1894 (E), dated the 31st July, 2008, recognizing certain laboratories as Environmental Laboratories, under section 12 and section 13 of the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986.
III. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification S.O. 2244 (E), dated the 22nd September, 2007, regarding constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Uttrakhand.
IV. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification G.S.R. 752 (E), dated the 24th October, 2008, regarding the Environment (Protection) Eighth Amendment Rules, 2008.
V. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Salim Ali Centre for
Ornithology and Natural History (SACON), Coimbatore, for the
year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Centre.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
74
10. SHRI ANAND SHARMA to lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—
(a) Thirteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the Broadcast
Engineering Consultants India Limited (BECIL), NOIDA, for
the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the
Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor
General of India thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.
SHRI V. NARAYANSAMY: Sir, I lay on the Table, the following
statements (in English and Hindi) showing the action taken by
Government on the various assurances, promises and undertakings
given by Ministers during Sessions shown against each:—
1. Statement No. XXVIII Hundred and Ninety-third Session, 2001 2. Statement No. XXIV Hundred and Seventh Session, 2002 3. Statement No. XX Hundred and Ninety-ninth Session, 2003 4. Statement No. XVII Two Hundred and Second Session, 20045. Statement No. XV Two Hundred and Third Session, 2004 6. Statement No. XV Two Hundred and Fourth Session, 2005 7. Statement No. XII Two Hundred and Fifth Session, 2005 8. Statement No. XII Two Hundred and Sixth Session, 2005 9. Statement No. XI Two Hundred and Seventh Session, 2006
10. Statement No. IX Two Hundred and Eighth Session, 2006 11. Statement No. VIII Two Hundred and Ninth Session, 2006 12. Statement No. VII Two Hundred and Tenth Session, 2007 13. Statement No. VI Two Hundred and Eleventh Session, 2007
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
75
14. Statement No. IV Two Hundred and Twelfth Session, 2007 15. Statement No. III Two Hundred and Thirteenth Session, 2008
SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:
(i)(a) Fifty-second Annual Report and Accounts of the Neyveli Lignite
Corporation Limited, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together
with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of
the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation.
(ii) (a)
Thirty-fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Coal India
Limited (Vol. I & II), Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008, together
with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments
of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.
ÁÖß •µÖÖêןָüÖפüŸµÖ ´ÖÖ¬Ö¾Ö¸üÖ¾Ö ØÃÖ׬ֵÖÖ: ´ÖÆüÖÓê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×®Ö´®Ö×»Ö×ÜÖŸÖ ¯Ö¡Ö ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ
ÆæÓü:-
I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Communications
and Information Technology Notification G.S.R 564 (E), dated the 30th
July, 2008, publishing the Use of low Power Equipment in the
Frequency Band 865-867 MHz for (RFID) Radio Frequency Identification
Devices (Exemption from Licensing Requirement) Amendment Rules,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
76
2008, under sub-section (5) of section 7 of the Indian Telegraph Act,
1885 and sub-section (4) of section 10 of the Indian Wireless
Telegraphy Act, 1933.
II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of
Communications and Information Technology Notification No. 104-
15/2008-MN, dated the 21st October, 2008, publishing the Telecom
Unsolicited Commercial Communications (Second Amendment)
Regulations, 2008, under section 37 of the Telecom Regulatory
Authority of India Act, 1997.
III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—
(a) Eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Bharat Sanchar
Nigam Limited (BSNL), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008,
together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the
comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India
thereon.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.
IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—
(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Society for Applied Microwave Electronics Engineering and Research (SAMEER), Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Society.
(ii)(a) Thirteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the DOEACC Society, New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
77
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Society.
(iii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Society for the Software Technology Parks of India (STPI), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.
(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Society.
(Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
78
MESSAGES FROM LOK SABHA
(i) THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 (ii) THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008
SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I have to report to the House the
following message received from the Lok Sabha, signed by the
Secretary-General, Lok Sabha:
(i)
"In accordance with the provisions of rule 96 of the Rules of
Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am directed
to enclose the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008, as passed
by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on 17th December, 2008."
(ii)
"In accordance with the provisions of rule 96 of the Rules of
Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am directed
to enclose the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill,
2008, as passed by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on 17th
December, 2008."
Sir, I lay a copy of each the Bills on the Table.
(Ends)
REPORT ON THE INDIAN PARLIAMENTARY PARTICIPATION AT INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE.
SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I lay on the Table a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Report on the participation of the Indian Parliamentary Delegation at the 119th Assembly of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) held in Geneva (Switzerland) from 11 to 16 October, 2008. (Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
79
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ASSURANCES
SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN (KERALA): Sir, I present the Sixty-
Second Report (in English and Hindi) of the Committee on Government
Assurances. (Ends)
REPORTS OF THE COMMITTEE ON PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE
SHRIMATI SYEDA ANWARA TAIMUR (ASSAM) : I present a copy each
(in English & Hindi) of the following Reports of the Committee on Papers
Laid on the Table: -
(i) One Hundred and sixteenth Report regarding laying of Government
Notifications/ Orders and Annual Reports and Audited Accounts of
Government Companies/Organisations laid by the various
Ministries/Departments on the Table of the House during the 213th
Session of Rajya Sabha, and
(ii) One Hundred and seventeenth Report regarding laying of Annual
Reports and Audited Accounts of various State Agro Industries
Corporations (SAICs). (Ends)
REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND FAMILY WELFARE
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï îÖÖŸÖÛúÖê¢Ö¸ü †ÖµÖãÙ¾ÖóÖÖ®Ö ×¿ÖõÖÖ †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖÓ¬ÖÖ®Ö
ÃÖÓãÖÖ®Ö, “ÖÓ›üßÝÖœÍü (ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö) ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú, 2008 Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ-ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ Ã¾ÖÖãµÖ †Öî¸ü ¯Ö׸ü¾ÖÖ¸ü
Ûú»µÖÖÞÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ ÛúÖ ŸÖïŸÖßÃÖ¾ÖÖÓ ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö (†ÓÝÖÏê•Öß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ¯ÖÏßÖãŸÖ
Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
80
EVIDENCE TENDERED BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND FAMILY
WELFARE
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï îÖÖŸÖÛúÖê¢Ö¸ü †ÖµÖãÙ¾ÖóÖÖ®Ö ×¿ÖõÖÖ †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖÓ¬ÖÖ®Ö
ÃÖÓãÖÖ®Ö, “ÖÓ›üßÝÖœÍü (ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö) ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú, 2008 Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖõÖ ×¤ü‹ ÝÖ‹ ÃÖÖõµÖ Ûúß
‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…
(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
(Followed by kls/1o)
KLS/1O-12.05
REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE
SHRIMATI MOHSINA KIDWAI (UTTAR PRADESH): Sir, I lay on the
Table a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the
Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Agriculture:
(i) Forty-second Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by
the Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained
in their Thirty-seventh Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)
relating to the Department of Agriculture and Cooperation (Ministry
of Agriculture);
(ii) Forty-third Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by the
Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained in
their Thirty-eighth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)
relating to the Department of Agricultural Research and Education
(Ministry of Agriculture);
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
81
(iii) Forty-fourth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by
the Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained
in their Thirty-ninth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)
relating to the Department of Animal Husbandry, Dairying and
Fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture); and
(iv) Forty-fifth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by the
Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained in
their Fortieth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating
to the Ministry of Food Processing Industries. (Ends)
REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ×¾Ö¯»Ö¾Ö šüÖÛãú¸ü (×Æü´ÖÖ“Ö»Ö ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ÛúÖ¸ü×ÝÖ»Ö ÃÖ´ÖßõÖÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö ¸üõÖÖ
¯ÖϲÖÓ¬Ö®Ö Ûêú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖÓ¤ü³ÖÔ Ûêú †®ÖãÃÖ¸üÞÖ ´Öë ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ÃÖã¸üõÖÖ ¯ÖÏÞÖÖ»Öß ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸ü Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´ÖÓסÖÃÖ´ÖæÆü
(•Ö߆Öê‹´Ö‹ÃÖ) Ûêú ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö Ûêú ÛúÖµÖÖÔ®¾ÖµÖ®Ö Ûúß ×ãÖ×ŸÖ Ûúß ÃÖ´ÖßõÖÖ Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú
²ÖÖ‡ÔÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾Ö™ü ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë/ÃÖ´Öã׌ŸÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖê
ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ (“ÖÖî¤üÆü¾Öà »ÖÖêÛú ÃÖ³ÖÖ) Ûêú ²Ö¢ÖßÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß
´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖß ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
STATEMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ×¾Ö¯»Ö¾Ö šüÖÛãú¸ü (×Æü´ÖÖ“Ö»Ö ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ¸üõÖÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ
ãÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ 1 †Öî¸ü 5 ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾Ö™ü ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô
ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú-‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•Öß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖß ÆæÓü :
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
82
(12) (i) Fifteenth Action Taken Report of the Committee (Fourteenth
Lok Sabha) on Demands for Grants (2006-2007) relating to the
Ministry of Defence;
(13) (ii) Nineteenth Action Taken Report of the Committee (Fourteenth
Lok Sabha) on Procurement Policy and Procedure;
(14) (iii) Twenty-first Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Defence Public Sector Undertakings;
(15) (iv) Twenty-third Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Review of Medical Services and
Education in the Defence Sector;
(16) (v) Twenty-fourth Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “A Critical Review of Rehabilitation of
Displaced Persons;
(17) (vi) Twenty-fifth Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Defence Research and Development
Organization;
(18) (vii) Twenty-seventh Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “In-depth Study and Critical Review of
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)”; and
(19) (vii) Twenty-eighth Action Taken Report of the Committee
(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on In-depth Study and Critical Review of
Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). (Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
83
REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
›üÖ0 ¸üÖ´Ö ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¿Ö (Æü׸üµÖÖÞÖÖ) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖë ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ
ãÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ×®Ö´®Ö×»Ö×ÜÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®ÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü
¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü
(106) (i) Twenty-second Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken
by the Government on the recommendations contained in their
Twentieth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to
the Ministry of External Affairs; and
(107) (ii) Twenty-third Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by
the Government on the recommendations contained in their
Twenty-first Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to
the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs. (Ends)
STATEMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY
STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
›üÖ0 ¸üÖ´Ö ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¿Ö (Æü׸üµÖÖÞÖÖ) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ¯ÖϾÖÖÃÖß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖÖë ÃÖê ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ´Öã§êü, ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ
†Öî¸ü ¯ÖϾÖÖÃÖß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ Ûúß †®Öã¤üÖ®Ö ´ÖÖÓÝÖÖë (2007-2008) Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú
ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö: ÃÖ¡ÖÆü¾Öë, †šüÖ¸üÆü¾Öë †Öî¸ü ˆ®®ÖßÃÖ¾Öë Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®ÖÖë Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ - 1
¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖë ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß
ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú-‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü
¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
84
REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (JHARKHAND): Sir, I lay on the Table a
copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the
Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Finance:-
(108) (i) Seventy-third Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on
the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-seventh
Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the
Departments of Economic Affairs, Expenditure, Financial Services
and Disinvestment (Ministry of Finance);
(109) (ii) Seventy-fourth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on
the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-eighth
Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the
Department of Revenue (Ministry of Finance);
(110) (iii) Seventy-fifth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on
the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-ninth
Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the Ministry
of Planning;
(111) (iv) Seventy-sixth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on
the recommendations/observations contained in their Seventieth
Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the Ministry
of Statistics and Programme Implementation;
(112) (v) Seventy-seventh Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha)
on the recommendations/observations contained in their Seventy-
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
85
first Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the
Ministry of Corporate Affairs;
(113) (vi)Seventy-eighth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “Flow of
Credit to Agriculture Sector” relating to the Department of
Financial Service (Ministry of Finance); and
(vii) Seventy-ninth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “Counterfeit
currency notes in circulation” relating to the Department of
Economic Affairs and Financial Services (Ministry of Finance).
(Ends)
REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON PETROLEUM AND NATURAL GAS
SHRI TAPAN KUMAR SEN(WEST BENGAL): Sir, I lay on the Table a
copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the
Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Petroleum and
Natural Gas:-
(i) Twenty-third Report on Oil Refineries A Critique; and
(ii) Twenty-fourth Report on Action Taken by the Government on the
recommendations contained in their Sixteenth Report (Fourteenth
Lok Sabha) on Supply, Distribution and Marketing of Natural Gas
including CNG and LNG. (Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
86
STATEMENTS OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE WELFARE OF SCHEDULED CASTES AND SCHEDULED TRIBES
ÁÖß ÛéúÂÞÖ »ÖÖ»Ö ²ÖÖ»´Öß×Ûú (¸üÖ•ÖãÖÖ®Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï Ûêú®¦üßµÖ ˆŸ¯ÖÖ¤ü †Öî¸ü ÃÖß´ÖÖ ¿Öã»Ûú ²ÖÖê›Ôü
(ÃÖß.²Öß.‡Ô.ÃÖß.) ´Öë †®ÖãÃÖæ×“ÖŸÖ •ÖÖןֵÖÖë †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖæ×“ÖŸÖ •Ö®Ö•ÖÖןֵÖÖë ÛúÖ †Ö¸üõÖÞÖ †Öî¸ü ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü Ûêú
ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ”û²²ÖßÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏן־Öê¤ü®Ö (“ÖÖî¤üÆü¾Öà »ÖÖêÛú ÃÖ³ÖÖ) Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ 1 ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾Ö™ü
×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë/ÃÖ´Öã׌ŸÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ †Ó×ŸÖ´Ö ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖ Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏןÖ
(†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ
REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON URBAN DEVELOPMENT
SHRIMATI SYEDA ANWARA TAIMUR (ASSAM): Sir, I lay on the Table
a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Thirty-eighth Report (Fourteenth Lok
Sabha) of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on
Urban Development (2008-2009) on Solid Waste Management relating to
the Ministry of Urban Development. (Ends)
SUPPLEMENTARY DEMANDS FOR GRANTS (RAILWAYS) 2008-2009
¸êü»Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß (ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï 2008-2009 Ûêú ¾ÖÂÖÔ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †®Öã¯Öæ¸üÛú †®Öã¤üÖ®Ö ´ÖÖÓÝÖë
(¸êü»Ö) ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»ÖÖ ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
STATEMENT RE. STATUS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF SEVENTIETH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY
STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE:
THE MINISTER OF STATE (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) OF THE
MINISTRY OF STATISTICS & PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION
(SHRI G.K. VASAN): Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
87
implementation of recommendations contained in the Seventieth Report
of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Finance.
(Ends)
(Followed by 1Q/SSS)
SSS/12.10/1P
STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED
PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT
THE MINISTER OF STATE (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) OF THE
MINISTRY OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND SPORTS (DR. M.S. GILL): Sir, I
lay a Statement regarding status of implementation of recommendations
contained in the Two Hundred and fourth Report of the Department-
related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Human Resource
Development. (Ends)
STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWENTY-THIRD REPORT OF
THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC GRIEVANCES, LAW AND JUSTICE AND ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY-NINTH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT-
RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, ENVIRONMENT AND FORESTS.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL,
PUBLIC GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS (SHRI PRITHVIRAJ CHAVAN):
Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of implementation of
recommendations contained in the Twenty-third Report of the
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88
Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public
Grievances, Law and Justice and One Hundred Eighty-ninth Report of
the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Science
and Technology, Environment and Forests. (Ends)
STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWENTIETY REPORT OF
THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
(SHRI ANAND SHARMA): Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of the
implementation of recommendations contained in the Twentieth Report
of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on External
Affairs.
(ENDS) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we will take up Special Mentions. SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I have given a notice in the morning.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, Mr. Ahluwalia...
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: It was said that we are not going to take up
any Special Mentions. Sir, my point is, one of the senior Members of
the Council of Ministers is making statements in the electronic and print
media and that is going against the spirit.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, Mr. Ahluwalia, your Zero Hour
notice is under consideration.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Whatever evidences were extracted from one
surviving terrorist are going against that. We cannot find that.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
89
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, your Zero Hour notice is under
consideration. Today we are not taking up any Zero Hour. Please...
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: That Minister is supporting the media tirade
against India launched by Pakistan.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your notice is there. It will be taken up.
Mr. Ahluwalia, you are a senior Member. You were there in the
morning. We had decided not to take up Zero Hour because the other
Bills have to be taken up. See, once in a week we do not take up Zero
Hour. It was decided not to take up Zero Hour today. Please
cooperate.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, he is supporting that. How can we
tolerate it? After 26th of November, when the entire nation is worried
about how to combat terrorism, a senior Cabinet Minister is making
such irresponsible statements and this House is sitting idle.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am not against your raising it. You have
given the notice and it will be taken up tomorrow.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, it was told that there will be no Zero
Hour, no Special Mentions and at 12 O' clock they will take up the CrPC
Bill. That is my point.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Home Minister has to move the CrPC
Bill.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I have an objection. Sir, we find in our
House that day-by-day this Government is desperate and determined to
insult this House because whenever we discuss a Bill, an important
CrPC Bill, every now and then, they send a Minister of State to initiate
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90
the Bill. Normally, a Cabinet Minister comes and he moves the Bill and,
then, discussion starts. Where is the Home Minister?
ÁÖß ×¤ü×Ý¾Ö•ÖµÖ ØÃÖÆü : µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ŸÖÖê ÃÖÆüß Æîü… You have to protect the House.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I fully agree, the Home Minister should have
been here. (Interruptions)
SHRI S. S. AHLULWAIA: Why are you insulting the House every day? I
have no personal grouse against him.
DR. V. MAITREYAN: Is the MoS going to table the other two Bills?
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: The CrPC Bill is also slated against Shri P
Chidambaram.
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He is not elsewhere. He is in the other
House. There is a discussion going on there.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: No, no, who said that?
DR. V. MAITREYAN: This is also a House.
SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: The Home Minister will definitely come.
DR. V. MAITREYAN: When?
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: When will he come?
DR. V. MAITREYAN: After April 2009 he has to come to this House
only. He cannot go there. (Interruptions)
DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD: I had moved this Bill in the Lok Sabha also.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have called you.
(Contd. by NBR/1Q)
-SSS/NBR-ASC/12.15/1Q
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (CONTD.): The sentiments of the House are
also very important...(Interruptions)...This is an important Bill. They are
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91
raising objection that the Home Minister should have been here
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, you take up the Special Mentions. We will
wait ...(Interruptions)...Let him come. Otherwise, you adjourn the House
till he comes...(Interruptions)...What is this?
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY
AFFAIRS (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Sir, how can he decide
that?...(Interruptions)...
DR. V. MAITREYAN: Already the Railways is following that. Now, the
Home Ministry is also following this.
SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH: Sir, we want protection from
you...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What protection do you
need?...(Interruptions)...
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, the point is very simple.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, okay. The Home Minister has come.
Let us take it up...(Interruptions)...I have given you protection. I have
called him. He has come...(Interruptions)...Mr. Narayanasamy, now, the
matter is over. Let us resume with the Business.
*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Deleted as ordered by the Chair.
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92
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, you move the Code of Criminal
Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 2008.
THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008.
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Sir, I
beg to move:
That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure,
1973, be taken into consideration.
Sir, with your permission, let the discussion start and I will reply to
the debate.
The question was proposed.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gyan Prakash Pilania. I just want to
remind you that 26 minutes has been allotted to your party and there
are two speakers.
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, this is an important Bill. You should be
considerate.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
93
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, I am just reminding him.
There are 26 minutes allotted and there are two speakers. Now, I leave
it to both of you to decide yourself.
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, thanks for your kind
reminder. In fact, I did not need it. I will stop as soon as you desire.
It is a very, very important piece of legislation as has been
sounded by the House. It is nice that the hon. Home Minister, Shri P.
Chidambaram, has consented to initiate the debate. It is a very
important legislation which needs a great deliberation. A discussion in
depth is required. Its edifice has been laid on the foundations of three
Reports of the Law Commission. The first one is 154th Report of 1996
vintage, another is 177th Report of 2001 and the third one is 178th Report
of the same year.
As far as 154th Report is concerned, it laid the foundation for this
Bill.
(CONTD. BY USY "1R")
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
94
-NBR-USY/1R/12.20
SHRI GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): And, this, particularly, deals
with ambition to ensure a fair and speedy justice, and to tone up the
criminal justice system in the country. As we all know, dispensation of
justice is one of the fundamental duties of any State, and getting justice
is one of the fundamental rights of the citizens of a State. Every man,
poorest of the poorest, lowliest of the lowliest, must get ‡ÓÃÖÖ±Ìú at the
door of the Government. And, this Bill is a step forward to ensure that.
We will examine, in minutes to come, how far it rises up to the
occasion.
As far as the 154th Report is concerned, its recommendations were
found very appropriate, particularly those relating to provisions
concerning arrest, custody, remand, procedure for summons and
warrant cases, compounding of offences, victimology, special protection
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95
in respect of women, and enquiry and trial of persons of unsound mind.
So, this is the bulk of recommendations contained in this Bill.
As far as the 177th Report is concerned, it related exclusively to
arrest with a view to ensure a balance between the liberty of the citizens
and society's interest in the maintenance of peace as well as law and
order. With your permission, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to
quote from a letter written by the Chairman of the 177th Law
Commission, Justice B.P. Jeevan Reddy. This letter was written to the
then Law Minister, Shri Arun Jaitley. I quote, "The theme of this
Commission's Report is to maintain a balance between the liberty of the
citizens, the most precious of all Fundamental Rights, and the societal
interest in maintenance of peace and law and order." This is a theme
that must permeate -- I think, the hon. Minister will appreciate -- all the
activities of the Government, particularly the Executive wing of the
Government, that there must always be a balance between the law and
order and the Fundamental Rights of the citizens, which must be
protected at all costs. This was a decision given by the Supreme Court
also.
As far as the 178th Report of the Law Commission is concerned, it
primarily related to treatment given to witnesses, which were being
induced to threats by accused persons to turn hostile. So, this Report
aims at ensuring that witnesses are not cowed down by money power
or muscle power. Overall, this Bill focuses upon nine basic issues.
Number one, law relating to arrest that concerns every citizen. Number
two, summons and warrant cases, where it has been mandatory that
there should be summary trial in all summons cases. This is a
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96
debatable issue about which Departmental Standing Committee had
dwelt upon in detail. Number three, how to check witnesses turning
hostile. This was the third important issue in the criminal justice system
of the country. Number four, special provisions for protection of women.
Womanhood had always been held in high regard in our country. We
have always been believing in µÖ¡Ö ®ÖÖµÖÔÃŸÖ ¯Öæ•ÖµÖ®ŸÖê, ¸ü´Ö®ŸÖê ŸÖ¡Ö ¤êü¾ÖŸÖÖ Hence,
honour, integrity and chastity of women must be protected at all costs.
That was the main theme that was pointed out by the Law Commission
and that has been handled in this Bill.
(Contd. by 1s -- VP)
VP/12.25/1S
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): Victimology has been ignored
so far. The victim of a crime had, in fact, no place in the Criminal
Justice System. He didn't have a special standing of his own. He
didn't get compensation. He was a person who suffered and suffered.
Victimology is a new sociological interpretation of system of justice,
which has been dealt with in this Bill.
The sixth point pertains to inquiry and trial of persons of unsound
mind, who cannot look after themselves, and who are persons who have
been betrayed by God and society. A special provision to take care of
those who are of unsound mind has been made, which is laudable.
There should be avoidance of adjournments. Everyone knows,
adjournments are the bane of our judicial system. There is endless
litigation. There are adjournments after adjournments and appeals after
appeals. It has been said that when grandfather institutes a case,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
97
grandson, usually, gets the opportunity to hear the judgement. We have
to avoid adjournments.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) IN THE CHAIR
The eighth point is regarding compounding of offences. As far as
possible, offences should be compounded. As far as possible, litigation
should be avoided. As far as possible, litigation should not become
endless and, as far as possible, there should be a conciliatory approach
overall to decide the cases.
And, last but not the least; the ninth issue is video-conferencing.
This is a new technique. We will discuss during the course of this
debate what is its balance in favour of the accused, as well as, in favour
of the State. So, these nine issues have been handled by this Bill,
which is epoch-making. We think, if properly executed and taken in the
right spirit, it may change the total facet of the Criminal Justice System.
I need not mention that the Criminal Justice System consists of
five different angles. One is the Judiciary, second is the Executive; the
prosecutor, third is the victim, fourth is the person who perpetrated the
crime, and, fifth and final is the jail administration. All these facets come
within the jurisdiction of the Criminal Justice System.
Now, with your permission, point by point, we will deal with
things. I hope, introduction of this new Code of Criminal Procedure
(Amendment) Bill will ensure that justice is not delayed because justice
delayed is justice denied. We also hope that it will ensure that justice is
not tampered with, that justice is not pro-rich, it is not pro-status-quo
and that justice, in ordinary words, will become sasta, sulabh and twarit,
which is the need of the hour. We will come to the points one by one.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
98
As far as changes regarding ensuring arbitrary arrest is
concerned, this Bill has gone in detail to ensure that police does not
abuse its powers. Arresting a person in the interest of his safety was
one of the suggestions which has been found highly objectionable by
the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Home
Affairs, which held detailed deliberations in its eleven sittings lasting for
hours and hours. This Committee submitted its report which was
presided over by one of our distinguished Members of Parliament, Smt.
Sushma Swaraj. (Continued by PB/1T)
PB/1T/12.30
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): I trust and hope that the
hon. Home Minister has incorporated in this Bill various kinds of
suggestions made by the Standing Committee of the Ministry.
One of the issues is, victimology. The proposed clauses 3, 37 and
38 provide for a compensation scheme to be prepared for compensating
the victim or his dependants. Action has to be taken on this by all the
States. I wish and pray that certain guidelines are laid down by the
Ministry of Home Affairs at the Central level so that different States
pursue same kind of compensation norms as far as victims are
concerned. Victim Compensation Scheme will be absolutely a new facet
in our judicial system and it should be very rightly prepared.
As far as special provision for women is concerned, it has been
ensured that in cases of rape, medical examination of woman is done
only under expert supervision of a female registered Medical Practitioner
as far as possible. Such Medical Practitioner should be from the State
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
99
Service or Central Service. That will ensure better bona fides and as far
as victim is concerned, if she is less than 18 years old, her parents or
social worker must remain present during the investigation.
It has been said that investigation of child rape cases may be
completed within three months' of time. I don't see any difference
between the rape case of a child and the rape case of an old woman.
To the lust of offenders, none is exempted. Eighty year-aged woman
has also suffered this pang of rape which kills a woman. While she
remains alive physically, it destroys her totally. So, as far as rape is
concerned, there couldn't be a worse offence against a woman, against
her whole personality, against her total psyche. Hence no distinction
should be made what is her age. Women of any age who have suffered
this stigma must be given justice at the earliest through fast courts or
any special courts preferably presided by a female Judge who can
understand her feeling better than a male Judge. It has been laid out
here. Members and witnesses agreed with this view, and, I think, that
has been accepted by the Home Ministry.
About avoidance of adjournment, there was no difference of
opinion and that has been incorporated in this Bill. Regarding
compounding of offences, offence under Section 498 IPC should be
made compoundable by the woman concerned in addition to husband of
a woman. As far as Section 490A IPC is concerned, it was a new
Section introduced sometime back. It should be included in Table 1 of
Section 320 CrPC and made bailable as well as compoundable. I think,
this is a felt demand because this Section 498A has been open to abuse
by people. Certain persons have suffered throughout the country
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
100
because of draconian law that is incorporated in this. Hence suggestion
has been made very rightly so and very timely so that it should be made
bailable as well as compoundable.
(Contd. by 1u/SKC)
1u/12.35/skc
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (Contd.): Compounding of offences
under Section 451, Section 497, which is adultery, and Section 498,
enticing or taking away or detaining with criminal intent a married
woman, is not desirable. This is the view expressed by the Members
and witnesses of the Standing Committee, and I think the Home Ministry
has graciously accepted this. This is a sane view. As far as persons of
unsound mind are concerned, I think there is nothing much to be
discussed except for that they should be provided with help from
psychologists or clinical scientists for care and treatment, and the
Medical Board should examine them so that nobody who is really not
guilty but who is of an unsound mind is made to suffer.
Sir, Video Conferencing is a debatable point. Video Conferencing
has been introduced. It was initially introduced in Andhra Pradesh. Video
Conferencing makes things easier for the Police and makes it easier for
the judiciary also, but it jeopardises the rights of the accused. I would
like to specifically bring this point to the notice of the hon. Home
Minister. I hope he is listening to me with one of his ears while listening
to learned Mr. Shourie with his other! I hope I am being heard, Sir. I
would like to submit again that lack of police escorts to take undertrials
to courts every fortnight, as provided under the law, has been replaced
by video linkages between jails and courts. This grossly curtails
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101
requirements of law vis-a-vis rights of the undertrial since it robs him of
counsel's presence and help. It is a very important point that I am trying
to emphasise. The House may kindly note of it. Video Conferencing
curtails requirements of law vis-a-vis rights of undertrial since it robs him
of counsel's presence and help. Law casts a duty upon the State to
physically produce the accused before the Magistrate. This is the first
and fundamental step required for the accused to negotiate his freedom
with judiciary. This negotiation is already fraught with a number of
problems ranging from bias of judiciary to that of the criminal justice
system, which considers any poor and under-privileged person as a
rogue and as an offender. The criminal justice system adopts a new
technology in the form of video linkage between courts and prisons.
What will its effect be? It will expedite the system. It will help the police;
they would have to undertake less trouble, but it will harm the undertrial
persons very much because the accused in the prison is electronically
produced before the Magistrate in the court. The linkage widens the
already existing divide between the citizen and the criminal justice
system. Hence, abundant caution is required. It has been sounded by
the Departmental Committee that prior to undertaking video
conferencing, also see to it that rights of undertrial prisoners are duly
protected. What can be done regarding witnesses turning hostile, which
was highlighted in certain cases such as the Jessica Lal and other
cases, where money and muscle power played its part? How can we
insulate witnesses from temptation or from threat and how can we
ensure that witnesses come forth readily, freely, frankly and depose the
truth before the court? In this connection, signed statements of
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102
witnesses have been suggested which has been also agreed to by the
Departmental Committee.
(Contd. by 1w/hk)
HK/1w/12.40
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): Though they would not have
evidential value because any statement made to a police officer in any
way, verbal or written, is not admissible in law. But it will help to ensure
that witness sticks to the written statement because he has signed it.
Secondly, if he does not, then there will be a perjury against him. So,
that provision is the same provision and, therefore, punishment for
perjury is also intended to be enhanced. I think this provision deserves
sanction of the House. Regarding summons and warrant cases, it is a
very special kind of jargon and only those who are apt in law are able to
appreciate it. At present, there are three kinds of trials -- warrant trial,
summons trial and summary trial. But the amendment in this Bill
suggests that all summons cases with punishment up to three years are
to be tried summarily. So, in future, there will be more cases under this
head. At present, 153 offences in the Indian Penal Code are such which
are being summarily tried. But, by making this amendment, there will be
58 new offences added to the list and total will be 211 offences, which
can be tried summarily. This also needs to be taken care of. I think
this provision has been introduced in a hurry. It should be further
looked into and scrutiny of each of the 58 new offences should be
undertaken to see which out of them deserves summary trial and which
deserves usual summons or warrant trial. This word of caution has
been given in the Departmental Committee Report also.
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103
Changes in the law relating to arrest have been delineated in
detail. They are all laudable because they aim at ensuring curtailing
arbitrary police power and giving right protection to fundamental liberty
of life and property to the accused or to the offender. How arrests are
to be made? Very detailed instructions have been given, which have
been an outcome of a Supreme Court decision.
I think, Sir, I will be ending very soon. I can see smile on your
face and I will conclude very soon.
Most of the points have been dealt with. As far as adjournments
are concerned, no adjournment should be granted at the request of the
party unless circumstances are beyond the control of that party. I think
that is same.
Regarding protection of woman, I think, distinguished Member
from our side, Shrimati Maya Singh, will be speaking more about it.
..(Interruptions)..
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time is almost
exhausted.
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: I stop it here. I just stop with the hope.
There is a recommendation and I hope that comes true. I hope that our
very sane and distinguished Home Minister, who himself is a person of
great eminence as far as law and finance are concerned, will fulfil this
promise. The Committee recommends to the Government to have a re-
look at the entire Bill. I don't know whether he would like to have a re-
look or not, but this is what Committee has suggested. I feel, let us not
hassle through; let us not hurry through. I can understand that there is
a hurry for a very special law to check terrorists. There is a hurry for
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104
National Investigation Agency. Can this Bill wait for few months more as
it has waited for years and years? The Committee has recommended
the Government to have a re-look at the entire Bill. In the light of
observations and recommendations made in the detailed Report, the
Committee, in this context, would like to reiterate recommendations
made in 111th Report.
(Contd. by 1x/KSK)
KSK/12.45/1X
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD): The Committee, in this
context, would like to reiterate recommendations made in the 111th
Report that the Government should attempt to bring forward a
comprehensive Bill for revamping the entire criminal jurisprudence.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your Party's time is over.
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: Not Party's time, Sir. You are so kind.
She is a lady. She will need your indulgence and goodness. I
conclude, Sir, with grateful thanks to you for your kind patience and very
special thanks to the hon. Home Minister for listening to me, or not
listening to me; I do not know. I know, he must have listened because
he has that capacity.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He is listening.
DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: He is talking to the other Minister. He
is listening to me also. That is his special qualification. Thank you very
much, Sir, and I wish best of luck to the new Home Minister in all his
endeavours.
(Ends)
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105
DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (TAMIL NADU): I fully support
the Code of Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 2006. Actually, after
hearing Mr. Pilania, who is a former DGP, I feel that we have to be very
careful in reading this Bill because Police people are bit happy after
hearing about this new amendment. But, at the same time, it addresses
the issue at the international level. Even though, we were not party to
the International Convention Against Torture, these issues, which were
raised in the International Convention, are also addressed here. In
certain ways, this is a departure from the system which we are following
is adversarial system of jurisprudence. We are now converting ourselves
gradually to the investigative system of jurisprudence. Therefore, we are
gradually tilting towards the European model and we are allowing the
parties, who are outside the Judges or jury, also to play a part in
executing the criminal jurisprudence in a proper way to render the
justice. Therefore, I feel the system, which is now followed by the
British model, is gradually diluted and the fear of the Police is gradually
taken away, and the Police should also feel that they are prince of a
democratic country and they have to help the victims and they have to
protect the interest of victims and they have to protect the interest of
the witnesses. All these issues are, in one way or the other, addressed
by this amendment. Therefore, I fully appreciate the hon. Home Minister
to have brought this law at an appropriate time. In the Bill, we find that
the summary proceeding, which was normally done in very petty cases,
has now been brought up to higher level of punishment cases, where
the offence is treated for two years or more punishment period. That is
also brought to the level of summary proceeding. Therefore, the
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106
Judiciary should also be sensitised to use this opportunity to render
justice in a proper way. We have to see that the victim should get
proper remedy. The rehabilitation and also the compensation package
are provided in amendment. But, at the same time, we are giving more
importance to the system of procedure, for example, the arrest
procedure which was followed in criminal rules of practice. Normally, it
was done as a part of Police standing orders. Now, it is made a part of
the Criminal Procedure Code - in which way you can arrest a person; at
what time you can arrest a person; what medium to arrest in a
cognisable offence; even if the Police officer was a witness to a
cognisable offence, whether he has got a right to make the arrest, what
medium to make that level of arrest. These are all addressed by this
amendment. Therefore, we feel, it is a good procedure. But, at the
same time, we have to see that the Police officers are well trained in
following this procedure. If we lay the procedure and it is not followed,
there is no purpose in having such an amendment. The knowledge and
habit of the police system is like that they violate the rules which are
already laid. Therefore, this laying of a very consistent step-by-step
procedure is to be followed just like the American system because we
used to read in the Perry Mason novel how an advocate was aiding a
particular victim in getting the justice. In the same way, this new
procedure allows an advocate to be present along with the victim and
also with the other part, that is, the accused also.
(continued by 1y - gsp)
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107
GSP-DS/12.50/1Y
DR. E. M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (contd.): More so, regarding the
victim side, another important procedure which was followed in the
earlier Criminal Procedure Code was that with the permission of the
Court, a person could assist the Public Prosecutor. But, now, it has
been given as a right itself, more or less, as an opportunity for the victim
to have legal assistance throughout the case. This means that even if
the State has not proceeded for the appeal against the acquittal, then,
the victim will have the opportunity to use this facility. Therefore, I hope,
this will enable them to get justice at the higher level also.
Coming to arrest procedure, it is made applicable only when there
is apprehension that the accused may not cooperate in the investigation,
or, a person, who may be a witness initially but subsequently made as
one of the accused, is also compelled by way of giving notice to
cooperate in the investigation. If they do not cooperate, they can be
arrested and for that Clause 41 A is included.
Also, the police has been given the direction that they should have
a control room at the District level also. There is also a proposition, as I
already said, that aid of an Advocate can be taken at the time of the
arrest of a particular accused. It has been incorporated by way of 41D,
and, that is a very excellent right given to any accused.
Nowadays, many cases with regard to violation of women's rights
by the police officers are reported. There is a clear mention that women
police alone can arrest a female person, otherwise, arrest can be made
only on oral intimation of arrest. This is also a very good proposition,
which is being made as a part of the law.
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108
There is a very good mandatory provision that a female Registered
Medical Practitioner shall accompany the arrested person in case the
arrested person is a female.
Sir, the custodial deaths are reported in every State, and, in
certain States, these are much more in numbers. Therefore, the type of
medical certificate when a person is arrested and put in custody, will
help to find out as to whether he was tortured by the police or not.
Therefore, it is a very good departure, which is really addressing the
issue of human rights activists.
With regard to care of the health and safety of the accused is also
addressed by Clause 55A. Here, I would like to draw the attention of
hon. Home Minister that prison reforms should be there. Sir, when the
police stations get the custody of the prisoners -- in some cases, the
judicial custody also -- the prisoner's health is not properly looked after,
even though, we are following the ancient Prisoners Rules formulated
during the British regime. Even after submission of so many reports on
this issue, we have not come forward and we have not gone for that.
Normally, most of the people who are victims in a particular case, when
they are put in to the judicial custody or prison, they are converted into
criminals. This is the system being created within the prisons. There is
no reformative system followed. Today, the system is such where the
person who is a holy enough, when pushed into the prison and comes
out, becomes an unholy person and becomes a party to many criminal
activities. Therefore, reforms of the prisons should also be looked into.
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109
Similarly, provisions regarding protecting the rights of the rape-
victims of the age of 18 years and above, and, also of the child being
raped, which are given here are good provisions.
Regarding Section 164, the confessional statements given by the
witnesses, and, in certain cases by accused, are now electronically
recorded, and, a copy of the statements which are recorded by the
Magistrate has to be furnished to the police officer.
(contd. by 1z-ysr)
-GSP/YSR/12.55/1Z
DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (CONTD.): That is also provided
here by way of amendment. A departure has been made by making
immediate punishment for the perjury. It means if the witness gives a
statement under Section 162, he has to sign it. It is a complete
departure from the practice which was not at all before us as practising
lawyers. The lawyer used to ask the witness whether he signed the
statement or not. If he signed the statement, it would not be
considered as a piece of evidence. But now a person has to sign it
and, at the same time, he can get a copy of that statement also. That
would be treated as an acknowledgement of the statement. Therefore,
that can be used against him if he goes away from it.
Another provision is given here. If a magistrate or a judge finds
that a particular witness is deviating from his own statement, which was
recorded either under Section 162 or under Section 164, then he can be
punished immediately for a period of more than three months to one
year. That type of punishment is also given.
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110
But it will take some more time to be understood by an ordinary
citizen. Many people are brought in as cooked up witnesses. They
have no knowledge about it, but their statements are recorded. Now
they can easily get a copy of it as acknowledgement. But, at the same
time, due to his ignorance, when he comes into the box and he could
not follow the statement which was already recorded under Section 162,
immediately, he will be penalised and put inside the jail. Therefore, it
has to be applied carefully till maturity comes at the level of citizens.
We have to sensitise people also. Police officers, witnesses,
prosecutors, judges, and defence lawyers, everybody should have the
knowledge that this is the new system which we are following.
Otherwise, there will be a lot of people who will be prejudiced by way of
this new system which is going to be followed.
But we appreciate this measure. It is a very good thing for a
civilised society where we are trying to educate the people through the
Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan and other system. They have to develop their
knowledge in this system also. They should come forward to help the
administration and also the police in getting justice for the victim.
Regarding remand, a provision is given. Remand can be
extended. It is based on many judicial pronouncements. Even through
electronic video, remands were also allowed in certain cases. It is also
a very dangerous thing. It has to be applied very carefully, because
many people will be tortured in the prison. But now his remand will be
extended through this. The opportunity to look at the person physically
by a magistrate is now missing. Therefore, it has to be handled very
carefully.
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111
On summary proceedings, I would like to draw the attention of the
hon. Home Minister that when it is applied, the judiciary should
cooperate with us, because we are giving it the right to make summary
evidence. That means they have to comprehend it in its entirety whether
it is the examination, or the cross-examination or the re-examination,
and make it or put it in a summary way. They should not leave certain
things according to their fancy. The Judiciary should completely
cooperate with us. Then only we can reduce the pendency of cases.
And then we can provide justice to both the sides by summary trial.
Regarding compounding, it is a very good effort to reduce the
number of cases and also the enmity between parties, which may exist,
if a person is convicted at the end of it. A chance is being given for
amicable and peaceful solution through compounding of offences.
But there is some irritation. I hope the hon. Member, Shrimati
Brinda Karat, may highlight it. But, at the same time, I have got the
duty to just indicate the liberal nature of diluting the things, just like
adultery under Section 497. It can be compounded if the husband of
the woman accepts it.
(Contd. By VKK/2A)
-YSR/VKK/2a/1.00
DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (CONTD.): And then, enticing or
taking away or detaining with a criminal intent a married woman under
section 498 is also compoundable. I feel, these are all too much for us,
for a society which has joint family system and conservative mind. We
should not allow so easily the offender to escape the clutches of law
who knows that he cannot be expected, when he commits an offence
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112
under section 497 or 498, to be set free on the basis of the
compounding. Similarly, causing miscarriage. How can we allow that to
go in for compounding? It's totally unimaginable for us. Section 312 is
for causing miscarriage to a woman. Sir, this is too much and we
cannot tolerate it. I feel it has to be re-looked. Next is section 354 which
provides for assault or criminal force to woman with intent to outrage
her modesty. How can we allow section 354 to be compounded? This is
very easy for hooligans who are sitting on the roadsides. Look at the
case of one college student in Chennai who was assaulted and
criminally forced. She died on the spot. Many people are in the trauma.
Many adult girl students are not at all able to cope with this type of
assault in the society. Mr. Rao is saying that many cases are coming up
in the name of ragging. Ragging is prohibited in certain areas by way of
State laws. Even then, how can we allow it to be compoundable? If that
is so, it is easy for the person to do the offence and then threaten again
that if you do not come forward to compound, then, I will do this and
that. In this way, you are increasing the degree of the offence.
Therefore, I feel that this type of thing has to be re-looked. Similarly,
marrying again during the lifetime of the husband or wife. How can we
pardon it? When you want to have a 'single wife, single husband'
concept, how can we pardon that you can marry anybody and you can
compound it subsequently? The husband or the wife of the person so
marrying can come and say that it can be compounded. It is also too
much. Section 509 provides that uttering words or sounds or making
gestures or exhibiting any object, intending to insult the modesty of a
woman or intruding upon the privacy of a woman. To whom? To a
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
113
woman whom it was intended to insult or whose privacy was intruded
upon. A lady can come out and complain under Section 509. That itself
shows the culture. But, when they come out and when you allow it to
be compounded, then, everything goes wrong. That cannot be
controlled. We are not helping the privacy of the women. We are not
giving importance to women, at least, in the mind of the Indians. We
may have many cultures, we may have globalisation everywhere, but, we
have to retain our joint family system, we have to retain our Hindu way
of life and we have to retain our Indian way of life. That has to be
protected.
Sir, many new innovations are also there and I feel, this is a new
way of thinking and this has to be totally sensitised. Also, it has to bring
a change in the mindset and in the set-up of the judiciary. There should
be a total change in the minds of the prosecutors, police officers,
defence lawyers, witnesses, victims, jail wardens and everywhere. Then
only this amendment will be a successful amendment. Thank you very
much, Sir. (Ends)
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you Mr.
Natchiappan. Next, Shri Prasanta Chatterjee. See, we have to pass it
before 2.00 p.m. Your party has eight minutes. But, there is one more
speaker. Shrimati Brindaji will also be speaking. Therefore, try to be
brief. That's all. (Interruptions) I only said that try to be brief. I didn't say
more than that.
SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (WEST BENGAL): Sir, I will not take
much time.
(Contd. by MKS/2b)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
114
MKS-MP/1.05/2B
SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): Sir, this is a very important
Bill. The Standing Committee has elaborately discussed it. Many of the
amendments have been accepted by the Ministry, by the Government,
and, thereafter, you will see, Sir, that the serial numbers have been
changed. I would like to bring it to the notice of the Minister that with
the acceptance of the amendments, that will have to be corrected.
Sir, we all know that amending the Cr.PC alone is not enough to
make the society crime free. The socio-economic conditions of the
people, the awareness of the people, the political and social awareness,
strengthening of the same, strengthening of the judiciary, active
involvement of the elected bodies, these are all important to make the
society crime free or to have less crimes in the society. Actually, the
role of judiciary is also very important. With this idea in mind, we have
to find out how the police authorities can be made people-friendly. We
should not make them harsher. By doing so, the number of crimes will
come down. There should be a very balanced approach between the
two. At the same time, strengthening the police authorities is
necessary; strengthening the implementation of the Acts is also
necessary. Some good changes have been made in the Bill which was
originally circulated. There is a great change. It is good that on page 3,
we find that the detention of a person is necessary for his safety; that
has been deleted. "The engagement of an advocate at the choice of
the victim" has been inserted in the Bill; this is very good. On page 3,
in clause 6, in section 41, there is a mention of words that "to appear
before him or such other places..." My request is that the place should
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
115
be made very specific, either within his limits of his own or in the
adjoining areas, where he is to appear. It will be good to make the
place very specific.
Sir, good changes have been made. On page 4, we have found
in 54(1) that the Government medical practitioner has been given the
preference, and in case of a female arrestee, the female medical
practitioner has been given the preference. It is a very good change
that has been effected here.
Sir, we all know--please refer to clause 11 on page 4--that the
woman judges are presently inadequate. A sufficiently good number of
efficient woman judges are necessary. Even that is equally required in
respect of male judges. Very recently, we came to know that
unsatisfactory appointment of judges has been cited as one of the
reasons for accumulation of many court cases. The Minister has
circulated it. It is good that while dealing with section 157, in clause 11,
it has been stated: "In case of an offence of rape, the recording of the
statement of the victim shall be recordance at the residence of the
victim or at any other place of her choice, as far as practicable, by a
woman police officer in the presence of her parents or a guardian." It is
very good that this has taken place.
Sir, another suggestion is that in line 33 on page 3, in 41C(2) it is
stated: "The State Government shall cause to be displayed..." The
word, I would like to request, 'forthwith' be added immediately. Sir, it is
better to include that word in 41c(2).
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
116
Sir, the video conferencing aspect was elaborately discussed in
the Committee, and we have suggested to them to be very careful
before implementing this facility.
(Contd. by TMV/2C)
-MKS-TMV-SC/2C/1.10
SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): The person who appears
before the magistrate can explain it better in person. That we all know.
To improve the system this is welcome. But we should be very cautious
and, particularly, he should not be detained in police custody. We
requested the Ministry to be careful so that this wouldn't be misused.
So, a fool-proof system is necessary before its implementation. We
have made a request in this regard.
As regards the advocate becoming a witness, it was discussed in
the Standing Committee. If he remains present during the video
conferencing, then he can't appear as advocate. That point was also
discussed in the Standing Committee. From our side we have proposed
some amendments. Madam Brinda Karat will explain them. So far as
compounding is concerned, it was also discussed in the Standing
Committee. We should be very cautious because in many of the
clauses women are involved. We want some deletions to be made.
Madam Brinda Karat will explain them. We request the Government to
consider these amendments. With these few words, I support the Bill
and conclude. Thank you. (Ends)
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
117
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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Your party has got
seven minutes. If you can stick to that, it will be very good.
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: You please give me some more time. You
allow me some more time.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can take one or two minutes more.
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"4. In section 26 of the principal Act, in clause (a), the following
proviso shall be inserted, namely:-
"Provided that any offence under sections 376 and sections 376A
to D of the Indian Penal Code shall be tried as far as practicable
by a court presided over by a woman."
×ÃÖ¨üÖÓŸÖŸÖ: ´Öê¸üß ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô †ÃÖÆü´Ö×ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ´Öï ´ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿Ö Ûú¸êü
»Öê×Ûú®Ö ¤üÖê ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Æïü… ¯Öã¹ýÂÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ †×¾ÖÀ¾ÖÖÃÖ ŒµÖÖë ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü? †Ö•Ö ŸÖÛú ו֮֟Öê
±îúÃÖ»Öê ˆ““ÖŸÖ´Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ µÖÖ ˆ““Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ®Öê ²Ö»ÖÖŸÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú ´ÖÖ´Ö»Öê ´Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ¯Öß×›ÍüŸÖÖë Ûêú
¯ÖõÖ ´Öë פü‹ Æïü, ¾Öê ÃÖ²Ö ¯Öã¹ýÂÖ ®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿ÖÖë ®Öê Æüß ×¤ü‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü †³Öß ŸÖÛú ¤êüŸÖê ¸üÆêü Æïü… ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ,
‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ¿®Öד֮Æü †Öî¸ü Æîü… †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö •Öë›ü¸ü Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿ÖÖë ÛúÖê ´ÖãÛú§ü´Öë ¤ëüÝÖê ×Ûú
µÖÆü ´ÖãÛú§ü´ÖÖ ‡ÃÖ •Öë›ü¸ü Ûêú »ÖÖêÝÖ ™ÒüÖ‡Ô Ûú¸ëü, µÖÆü ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ëü ŸÖÖê ŒµÖÖ µÖÆü ¾ÖÖòµÖ»Öê×™ü¾Ö ®ÖÆüà
ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ŒµÖÖ µÖÆü ˆÃÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸ü ÛúÖ Æü®Ö®Ö ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? †Ö•Ö †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü ÃÖÖê“Ö ¸üÆêü Æïü ×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ
®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿Ö Ûú¸êüÝÖß… Ûú»Ö ÛúÖê †ÝÖ¸ü †×³ÖµÖ㌟Ö, •ÖÖê ¯Öã¹ýÂÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü ÜÖ›ÍüÖ ÆüÖêÛú¸ü µÖÆü ÛúÆêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú
†Ö¯Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Æïü ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ †Ö¯Ö •Öë›ü¸ü ²ÖÖµÖÛü Æïü ŸÖÖê ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ, Æü´Ö ¯ÖÏê׌™üÛú»Ö ®ÖÆüà ÃÖÖê“Ö
¸üÆêü Æïü ×Ûú µÖÆü ‹Ûú °»Ö›ü ÝÖê™ü †Öê¯Ö®Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… †Ö•Ö ‹Ûú ×ÜÖ›ÍüÛúß ÜÖã»Ö ÝÖµÖß Æîü… Ûú»Ö ÛúÖê
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
118
ÛúÖê‡Ô ÜÖ›ÍüÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú Æü´Ö ²ÖÎÖÉÞÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö šüÖÛãú¸ü Æïü ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ´ÖãÛú§ü´ÖÖ
²ÖÎÖÉÞÖ •Ö•Ö «üÖ¸üÖ Æüß ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖß ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü šüÖÛãú¸ü ÜÖ›ÍüÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú
šüÖÛãú¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Æüß ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ´ÖÖ‡®ÖÖò׸ü™üß•ÖÌ ÛúÖ †Ö¤ü´Öß ÜÖ›ÍüÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö
ŸÖÖê ´Öî•ÖÖê׸ü™üß Ûêú Æïü, Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ´ÖãÛú§ü´ÖÖ ´ÖÖ‡®ÖÖò׸ü™üß•ÖÌ «üÖ¸üÖ Æüß ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… µÖÆü ‹Ûú °»Ö›ü
ÝÖê™ü †Öê¯Ö®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü µÖÆü ³Ö×¾Ö嵅 Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ®ÖãÛúÃÖÖ®Ö¤êüµÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… ‹Ûú †Ó›ü¸üÙëüØ›üÝÖ
ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü… Æü¸ü •ÖÝÖÆü ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯Ö ‹Ûú †×ŸÖ׸üŒŸÖ וֻÖÖ ®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿Ö †Ö¯Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®µÖÖµÖÖ¬Öß¿Ö ×®ÖµÖ㌟Ö
Ûú¸ü ¤ëü… (2›üß-‹´ÖÃÖß‹´Ö ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ)
MCM-VK/2D/1-15 ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : וֻÖÖ •Ö•Ö ÛúÖê ‹›ü×´Ö×®ÖÙÒêü×™ü¾Ö †Ö¤êü¿Ö ¤êü ¤ëü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö
´Öë ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Ûú¸üÛêú ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú µÖÆü ˆ×“ÖŸÖ †Öî¸ü ÃÖ¸üÖÆü®ÖßµÖ Ûú¤ü´Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü, µÖÆü ³Ö×¾Ö嵅 ´Öë
‘ÖÖŸÖÛú ÆüÖê®Öê •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… •ÖÖê Œ»ÖÖò•Ö-41C Æîü
¾ÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÖÆü®ÖßµÖ Ûú¤ü´Ö Æîü… Ûú´Ö ÃÖê †Ö•Ö ÛúÖî®Ö-ÛúÖî®Ö ÃÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Æãü†Ö Æîü,
ˆÃÖÛúê ×»Ö‹ ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ¹ý´Ö ÆüÖêÝÖÖ ŸÖ£ÖÖ ˆÃÖÛúÖ ×›üï»Öê ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… µÖÆü †“”ûÖ ÃÖ¸üÖÆü®ÖßµÖ Ûú¤ü´Ö Æîü…
»Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú “Öß•Ö †³Öß ³Öß †¬Öæ¸üß Æîü… ´Öï ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ :
"The State Government shall cause to be displayed on the notice
board kept outside the control rooms at every district, the names and
addresses of the persons arrested and the name and designation of the
police officers who made the arrests".
µÖÆü ×›üï»Öê ×ÃÖ±Ôú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ¹ý´Ö ´Öë ŒµÖÖë? •ÖÆüÖÓ £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ¿Öãºþ†ÖŸÖ ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü, ¾ÖÆüÖÓ
¯Ö¸ü ŒµÖÖë ®ÖÆüà Æîü? †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü †®Öã³Ö¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ •ÖÖê µÖÆüÖÓ ²Öîšêü Æãü‹ Æïü ˆ®ÖÛúÖê
†®Öã³Ö¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ´Öï®Öê »ÖÖꆸü ÛúÖê™Ôü ÃÖê »ÖêÛú¸ü ¾ÖÛúÖ»ÖŸÖ ¿Öãºþ Ûúß Æîü ŸÖ²Ö ‹›ü¾ÖÖêÛêú™ü •Ö®Ö¸ü»Ö ²Ö®ÖÖ…
´ÖãôÖê ŸÖÖê »ÖÖꆸü ÛúÖê™Ôü ÃÖê »ÖêÛú¸ü Æü¸ü ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÛúÖ †®Öã³Ö¾Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ´Öï •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê
•µÖÖ¤üÖ ²Ö®¤üß ¯ÖÏŸµÖõÖßÛú¸üÞÖ µÖÖדÖÛúÖ‹Ó ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ÆüÖêŸÖß Æïü ×Ûú ¾Öê £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ×›ü™êü®Ö ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖŸÖê
Æïü… †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú ŸÖÖê µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü µÖÆü ×›üï»Öê ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê £ÖÖ®Öê
¯Ö¸ü Æüß ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú ÛúÖî®Ö-ÛúÖî®Ö †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ×ÛúÃÖ-×ÛúÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü ¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú
†Ö¯Ö ¾ÖÆü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ëüÝÖê, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ¾ÖÆü ²Ö®¤üß ²Ö®ÖÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ¹ý´Ö ÛúÖê
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
119
ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ŒµÖÖ ×ãÖ×ŸÖ †Ö‹ÝÖß… ×›ü×ÙÒüŒ™ü Æîü›üŒ¾ÖÖ™Ôü¸ü ´Öë ŸÖÖê ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ ²ÖÖ¤ü ´ÖêÓ
•ÖÖ‹ÝÖß… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê µÖÆü “ÖîÛú ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ŸÖ£ÖÖ £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü µÖÆü ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ †Ö®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹
ŸÖ£ÖÖ £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ×›üï»Öê ²ÖÖê›Ôü »ÖÝÖÖ ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ÛúÖ µÖÆü †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ‡ÃÖ †¯Ö¸üÖ¬Ö ´Öë
µÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü ¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖÛúß †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ”ûÖê™üÖ ÃÖÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Æîü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö
‡ÃÖÛúÖ ¯ÖϳÖÖ¾Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¾µÖÖ¯ÖÛú ÆüÖêÝÖÖ…
¤æüÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ, ‹Ûú “Öß•Ö †Öî¸ü Æîü… Œ»ÖÖò•Ö-41D Æîü… "When any person
is arrested and interrogated by the police, the arrestee shall be entitled
to meet an advocate of his choice during interrogation, though not
throughout interrogation."
´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß, Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ”ûÖê™êü ÃÖê ÃÖ•Öê¿ÖÓÃÖ Æïü, •ÖÖê ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü ¯ÖÏê׌™üÛú»Ö Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖã®Ö »Ößו֋…
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö Æîü ×Ûú ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã®Ö »Öß •ÖÖ‹, ´Öê¸êü ”ûÖê™êü ÃÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Æïü…
‡ÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú : 'meet an advocate of his choice during
interrogation' •ÖÖê ×›ü±ÏëúÃÖ ÛúÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö Æîü, †¸êüÙü †Öî¸ü ‡Ó™êü¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ÛúÖ, ÃÖ¯ÖÖêØ•ÖÝÖ, Ûú»Ö ÛúÖê
‹ÃÖ0‹“Ö0†Öê0 -†¸êüØÙüÝÖ †Ö×±úÃÖ¸ü ÛúÆüŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´Ö®Öê ŸÖÖê †¸êüÙü ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, Æü´Ö ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê™ü ®ÖÆüà
Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü…
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Mr.
Bhatia, you have not given any amendments.
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: I am only making a request to you. I know it.
I have not given. But this is my suggestion.
'To meet an advocate of his choice during interrogation.' It should be
immediately after arrest also.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Which clause are your referring to?
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: . Clause 41 (D). ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ¾Öê ×´ÖÃÖ-µÖæ•Ö Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü
×Ûú ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ŸÖ³Öß ÆüÖêÝÖÖ •Ö²Ö Æü´Ö ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ¿Öãºþ Ûú¸ëüÝÖê, †³Öß ŸÖÖê Æü´Ö®Öê †¸êüÙü
×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… immediately after arrest an advocate should be allowed to meet
the person who has been arrested at any time.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
120
¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö †Öî¸ü Æîü… •Ö²Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûúß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü, ŸÖÖê
†Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú During interrogation, not throughout interrogation. ´Öê¸üÖ ‡ÃÖ´Öë
‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö Æîü ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ¯ÖÛú›Íüß •ÖÖ‹ ŸÖÖê ¯Öæ¸êü ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ˆÃÖÛêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ
†×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ ÛúÖê ¸üÆü®Öê Ûúß ‡•ÖÖ•ÖŸÖ ¤üß •ÖÖ‹… µÖÆü ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö Æîü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê
¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ³Öß ˆ®ÖÛúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ¸üÖŸÖ ´Öë ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü †Öî¸ü פüÜÖÖ‡Ô ®ÖÆüà
•ÖÖŸÖß †Öî¸ü ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÃÖ¾Öê¸êü פüÜÖÖ‡Ô •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü… £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ¿Ö²¤ü ¯ÖϵÖÖêÝÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ
•ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖ㌟ÖÖë ÛúÖ †¯Ö´ÖÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ´Öï ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ®ÖÆüà
ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ˆÃÖÛúê ‡Ó™ü¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ µÖÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ³Öß
†×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ ÛúÖ ¾ÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÆü®ÖÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü…
(2E/ASC ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)
RG/ASC/1.20/2E
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ´Öê¸üß ‹Ûú †Ö¯Ö×¢Ö Æî… As regards Section 161, it has
been stated in clause 12, "Provided that statement made under this sub-
section may also be recorded by audio-video electronic means:
Provided further that in respect of offences specified in sub-
section (1) of section 164(B), where such person is required to be
forwarded to the nearest Magistrate for recording this statement under
that section, his statement to the police officer shall not be reduced into
writing under this sub-section." Then, it further says: "Provided that
where any statement has been recorded under section 164 B, the police
officer shall enclose a copy of such statement as part of his police
diary..." I have no objection to that. But in clause 13, it says: " The
statement made by any person to a police officer in the course of an
investigation under this Chapter shall, if reduced into writing, be signed
by the person making it. I oppose it. ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ‹Ûú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ Æîü, 161 ÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
121
†³Öß ÃÖÖ‡®Ö ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… •Ö²Ö †Ö¯Ö 161 ÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ÃÖÖ‡®Ö Ûú¸üÖ »ÖëÝÖê- †Ö¯Ö ×ãÖ×ŸÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ
ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †Ö×±úÃÖ¸ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô ³Öß ÝÖ¾ÖÖÆü- וÖÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê †ÃÖŸµÖ 161 Ûêú
Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü ×»ÖÜÖê •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ¤üßÖÜÖŸÖ Ûú¸üÖ »ÖëÝÖê ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Are you talking about the new Section 162 in
the Amendment Bill?
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: Yes.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: An official Amendment has been moved to
delete that Section and restore the original Section.
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï ×±ú¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú •ÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú ...if
reduced into writing, be signed by the person making it." That is another
thing.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Which portion are you referring to? It is
from Page 5, is it? Kindly listen to me. The whole of this is being
deleted, and the original Section in the Criminal Procedure code is being
restored. So, this Amendment is not being done
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: Then I take back my objection. Now, as
regards section 164, in clause 14, it is stated: "Provided that any
confession or statement made under this sub-section may also be
recorded by audio-video electronic means." There is a room for misuse
of this provision. When you want that it is admissible in the evidence,
then, for making a statement before the Magistrate, he should go before
the Magistrate. Otherwise, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ‹Ûú •ÖÝÖÆü £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ÜÖ›ÍüÖ Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ ŸÖ£ÖÖ ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öë
“ÖÖ¸ü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ¾ÖÖ»Öê ÜÖ›Íêü Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÃÖê confess Ûú¸üÖ ×»ÖµÖÖ… ´ÖîוÖÙÒêü™ü ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖ ´ÖÖ»Öæ´Ö ×Ûú
“ÖÖ¸ü †Ö¤ü´Öß ²ÖÓ¤æüÛú ×»Ö‹ Æãü‹ ÜÖ›Íêü Æïü … Then, that will be a statement made
under duress. When you say, "in the presence of a lawyer", even the
presence of a lawyer can be excused at that time. Then, what will
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
122
happen? Now if that lawyer is to defend him, then, will he be a
witness? And, I know of cases where the police engage a lawyer, and
the police say, "This is the lawyer", and they move a bail application." I
know of several such instances.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I don't want to interrupt at every stage, but I
thought it would save a lot of time. If you are referring to clause 14,
then, Section 164 is already there in the Code of Criminal Procedure
...(Interruptions) I am not a criminal lawyer. You are one...
SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: I am not a criminal lawyer. I am a lawyer
practising especially on the criminal side. Don't say that I am a criminal
lawyer.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, Section 164 requires that a confession or
a statement can be recorded by a Metropolitan Magistrate or a Judicial
Magistrate. Nobody else can record it. No change is being made
there. This is a proviso to Section 164 (1). So, when the Magistrate
records a confession, the clause applies, "Provided that any confession
or statement, made under this sub-section", by the Magistrate, may also
be recorded by audio-video means. The original recording is not taken
away. The Magistrate will record it. This provision says, "It may also be
recorded." So, there is nothing wrong with that.
(Followed by 2F)
-ASC/LP/TDB/2F/1.25
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú "´Öê" ÛúÖ ŸÖÖŸ¯ÖµÖÔ ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÆü ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü
ÛúÖê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸ü ¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ×ÛúÃÖß ³Öß ×¾Ö×¬Ö «üÖ¸üÖ ˆÃÖê ׸üÛúÖò›Ô Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡®Ö
†×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖ ×ÛúŸÖ®ÖÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü, Æü´Ö ‡ÃÖÃÖê †ÖÓÜÖë ²ÖÓ¤ü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…
†Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¤ë ×Ûú ÃÖÖšü ×Ûú»ÖÖê´Öß™ü¸ü ¤æü¸ü •Öê»Ö ´Öë ²ÖîšüÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü, †Öò×›üµÖÖê-¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ׸üÛúÖòÚ›üÝÖ Ûú¸ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
123
»Ößו֋, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ÛúÖµÖÔ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ˆÃÖ ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖß “Öß•Öë ´Öï
²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú †Öò×›üµÖÖê, ¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ׸üÛúÖòÚ›üÝÖ ÃÖê †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ÛúÖ ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö
׸üÛúÖò›Ô ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… •ÖÖê ²ÖÖŸÖ ¾ÖÆü ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ˆ¯Ö×Ã£ÖŸÖ ÆüÖêÛú¸ü ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü,
¾ÖÆü †Öò×›üµÖÖê, ¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ׸üÛúÖòÙ›ÝÖ ´Öë ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü… ×Ûú®Ö ¯Ö׸ü×ãÖןֵÖÖë ´Öë ¾ÖÆü †¯Ö®ÖÖ
Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü ׸üÛúÖò›Ô Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ¤ü³ÖÔ ´Öë µÖÆü ˆ×“ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ´Öï ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…
†ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ×ÃÖ±Ôú 164 ÛúÖ ‹×›ü¿Ö®Ö Æîü, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•ÖÖê Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ´Öë
ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÖ²¿Ö™ëü×¿ÖµÖ»Ö “Öë•Ö ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖê ¸üÆü®Öê ŒµÖÖë ®ÖÆüà ¤êüŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ ‹×›ü¿Ö®Ö Ûúß ŒµÖÖ
†Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ ¯Ö›Íß?
ŸÖßÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ, 167 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü פüµÖÖ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú׸üµÖ®Ö) : ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ •Öß, ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ Ûúßו֋…
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï®Öê ‡ÃÖß×»Ö‹ ÛúÖê‡Ô ‡×ŸÖÆüÖÃÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ ¿Öãºþ ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… ¯Ö¸ÓüŸÖã •ÖÖê ´Öê¸üß
ÃÖ´ÖôÖ ´Öë †Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, but the Magistrate may extend subsequently, every
time. 167 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, ײ֮ÖÖ ˆÃÖÛúß ˆ¯Ö×ãÖ×ŸÖ Ûêú ³Öß ×¸ü´ÖÖÓ›ü פüµÖÖ •ÖÖ
ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æî, ´Öï ˆÃÖÛúÖ ³Öß ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ Ûúß ˆ¯Ö×ãÖ×ŸÖ ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ׸ü´ÖÖÓ›ü
Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †ŸµÖÓŸÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü… ®Ö‡Ô ÃÖß.†Ö¸ü.¯Öß.ÃÖß. ´Öë µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ‡ÃÖß×»Ö‹ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ…
‡ÃÖß ÛúÖê ¤üßÖÜŸÖ ¸üÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ÛúÖ †¯Ö®ÖÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸ü ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú
•Ö²Ö ¾ÖÆü ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ¾µÖ׌ŸÖÝÖŸÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ˆ¯Ö×Ã£ÖŸÖ ÆüÖê, ŸÖÖê †¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ÃÖÛêú… ²ÖÆãüŸÖ
ÃÖß ²ÖÖŸÖë ”æû™ü ÝÖ‡Õ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Bhatiaji, please conclude.
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü, ¯Ö¸ÓüŸÖã †Ö¯Ö ´Öê¸üß ³Öß ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ
»Ößו֋, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ : ™üÖ‡´Ö ÜÖŸ´Ö…
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´ÖãôÖê †Ö¯Ö ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÆü »Öê®Öê ¤üßו֋… ™üÖ‡´Ö ÃÖ³Öß Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÜÖŸ´Ö ®ÖÆüà
ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü ™üÖ‡´Ö ´Öê¸êü ×»Ö‹ ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ´Öï Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ŒµÖÖ
פüŒÛúŸÖ Æîü… ´Öï ‡ŸÖ®Öß ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú “Öã¯Ö ²Öîšü •ÖÖ†Öê…
†Ö¯Ö ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ »Ößו֋, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
124
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú׸üµÖ®Ö) : †Ö¯ÖÛúß ¯ÖÖ™üá ÛúÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö ÃÖÖŸÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü £ÖÖ, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¯ÖÓ¦üÆü ×´Ö®Ö™ü
×»Ö‹ Æïü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : †Ö¯Ö ÃÖã®Ö »Ößו֋… ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖÓõÖê¯Ö ´Öë ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü… •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú
×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü, ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: There were interruptions.
...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What did you say? ...(Interruptions)... What are
you saying? ...(Interruptions)... I am not interrupting. Don't make such
comments. Why do you say, 'don't interrupt me?' I am not interrupting
you.
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: I never said, 'don't interrupt me'. I said,
'there were interruptions, Sir.'
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Okay, okay. ...(Interruptions)... Not interruptions;
not interruptions. There were interactions between the Minister and
himself. That was very useful; very educative also. ...(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: But, don't point a finger at me.
...(Interruptions)... You can't talk to me like this.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What are you doing?
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: You can't point a finger at me like this.
...(Interruptions)...
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can't point...(Interruptions)... Please; please.
The hon. Member should not point finger to the Chair.
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: You did it, Sir. I am saying, 'you please
don't do it'. You pointed a finger at me. ...(Interruptions)...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
125
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You behave properly,
hon. Member. Please behave properly. You should know how to behave.
Please, take your seat. ...(Interruptions)... Please, take your seat. Don't
point finger to the Chair. ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú
µÖêü ²Ö›Íüê ÛÎúÖÓןÖÛúÖ¸üß ÆîÓü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ : •Ö»¤üß ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûúßו֋…
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¯ÖÏêÃÖÖ‡•Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü… ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê
ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü, ¾Öê ¾ÖÖÛú‡Ô ´Öë ¯ÖÏ¿ÖÓÃÖ®ÖßµÖ Æïü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï £ÖÖê›Íüß ÃÖß ²ÖÖŸÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü
×Ûú µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ×”û¯Öß ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú ‹±ú.†Ö‡Ô.†Ö¸ü. ´Öë ±úÖ»ÃÖ ‡×´¯»ÖÛêú¿Ö®Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×ÛúµÖê •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü…
´Öê¸üÖ †Ö¯ÖÃÖê †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûúßו֋ ×Ûú •ÖÖê×ÝÖ®¤ü¸ü Ûãú´ÖÖ¸ü Ûêú ÛêúÃÖ ÛúÖê ±úÖê»ÖÖê
×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ”ûÖê™êü-”ûÖê™êü †¯Ö¸üÖ¬ÖÖë ´Öë, וÖÃÖ´ÖêÓ ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê Ûú´Ö Ûúß ÃÖ•ÖÖ Æîü, Ûú´Ö ÃÖê Ûú´Ö
ˆÃÖ´Öë ¾µÖ׌ŸÖ ÛúÖê •Öê»Ö ®ÖÆüà ³Öê•ÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †Ö•Ö ²Ö¤ü»ÖÖ »Öê®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ 323 ®ÖÖò®Ö
ÛúÖò×ݮ֕Öê²Ö»Ö Æîüü, 147 »ÖÝÖÖÛú¸ü †Ö¤ü´Öß •Öê»Ö ³Öê•Ö פüµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖϾÖé×¢Ö ÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ
“ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †¯Ö®Öê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Ûãú”û ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß
¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ Ûú¸ÓêÓ ×Ûú וִ֮Öë ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê Ûú´Ö Ûúß ÃÖ•ÖÖ ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ
“ÖÖ×Æü‹… ×±ú¸ü ³Öß µÖÆü þÖÖÝÖŸÖ µÖÖêÝµÖ Ûú¤ü´Ö Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ‹Ûú †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü, וÖÃÖÛúÖ
´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, 309 ´Öë, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ‹›ü¾ÖÖêÛêú™ËüÃÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ´Öï
¯ÖæÞÖÔŸÖµÖÖ, ו֮֟Öß ´Öê¸üß ¿Ö׌ŸÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ ¿Ö׌ŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…
(akg/2g ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
AKG-KGG/2G/1.30 ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : µÖÆü ÃÖÆüß Æîü ×Ûú †Ö•ÖÛú»Ö ´ÖãÛú¤ü´ÖÖë ´Öë ¤êü¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö
¤êü¸üß Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ×ÃÖ±Ôú ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ÛúÖê וִ´Öê¤üÖ¸ü šüÆü¸üÖ®ÖÖ, µÖÆü šüßÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü… µÖÆü ¾ÖîÃÖÖ Æüß Æîü •ÖîÃÖê
™êü¸üÖê׸üÙü †™îüÛú Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Ö•Ö ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤êü¿Ö ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖßןÖóÖÖë ÛúÖê וִ´Öê¤üÖ¸ü šüÆü¸üÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… Ûéú¯ÖµÖÖ ¤üÖê
×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã®Ö »Öë… †Ö¯Ö®Öê 309 ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü 330 CrPC ´Öë †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü
Æïü, "An accused has a right to be defended by a lawyer of his choice".
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
126
Is it not contradictory to that? •Ö•Ö ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹, ˆÃÖê ”ûàÛú †Ö •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ‘Ö¸ü
¯Ö¸ü ²Öîšü •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… †ÝÖ¸ü ¾ÖÛúᯙ ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü Æîü µÖÖ ÛúÆüà ¯Ö¸ü ¾µÖÃŸÖ Æîü, ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ˆÃÖÃÖê ÛúÆëüÝÖê ×Ûú
¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¾ÖÛúᯙ Ûúßו֋… ˆÃÖ®Öê ±úßÃÖ ‹Ûú ¾ÖÛúᯙ ÛúÖê ¤êü ¸üÜÖß Æîü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÆüÃÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸êü ¾ÖÛúß»Ö
ÃÖê Ûú¸üÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü… ŒµÖÖ µÖÆü ¬ÖÖ¸üÖ 330 CrPC †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ´ÖÖî×»ÖÛú †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë Ûêú ×¾Ö¯Ö¸üߟÖ
®ÖÆüà Æîü? ¾ÖÆü ד֤ü´²Ö¸ü´Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê ²ÖÆüÃÖ Ûú¸üÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¯Ö¸ü Æü´Ö ¯ÖÆãÑü“Ö •ÖÖ‹Ñ ×Ûú
ÃÖÖÆü²Ö, ¾Öê ŸÖÖê ¤æüÃÖ¸êü ÛúÖê™Ôü ´Öë ¾µÖÃŸÖ Æïü… ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú µÖÆü criminal jurisprudence Ûêú
×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú Æîü… ´Öï ד֤ü´²Ö¸ü´Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ˆ´´Öߤü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ £ÖÖ
×Ûú ¾Öê ¾ÖÛúᯙ ÆüÖêŸÖê Æãü‹ ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü ¤ëüÝÖê… ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü ŒµÖÖ
Ûú¸êüÝÖÖ? ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö adjournments »ÖêŸÖß Æîü, ÝÖ¾ÖÖÆü ®ÖÆüà †ÖŸÖê Æïü… †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖê
£Öê ×Ûú ‡ÃÖÛúÖê misuse ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… µÖÆü ˆ““ÖŸÖ´Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ŸÖÛú ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú
309 ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †ÝÖ¸ü witness †ÖµÖÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü,
ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü heavy cost »ÖÝÖÖ ¤êü®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹… »Öê×Ûú®Ö †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆëü ×Ûú †Ö•Ö ¾ÖÛúᯙ ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü
ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ŸÖã¸ÓüŸÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¾ÖÛúᯙ Ûú¸ü »Ößו֋, ŸÖÖê µÖÆü ®Ö ŸÖÖê ÃÖ´³Ö¾Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö µÖÆü ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… µÖÆü
Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Öß Æîü…
‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü †®ŸÖ ´Öë ´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö®Öê compounding Ûúß
²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß Æîü… µÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †“”ûÖ Æîü ×Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖê sections compounding ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹…
»Öê×Ûú®Ö †³Öß •ÖîÃÖÖ ›üÖ. ÃÖã¤ü¿ÖÔ®Ö ®ÖÖ““ÖßµÖ¯¯Ö®Ö •Öß ®Öê 494 Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ, µÖÆü ŸÖÖê ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †“”ûÖ
Æîü ×Ûú ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ¿ÖÖ¤üß Ûúßו֋, social fabric ÛúÖê ®Ö™ü Ûúßו֋, ÃÖÖ´ÖÖוÖÛú ´ÖµÖÖÔ¤üÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ®Ö™ü
Ûúßו֋ †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü compounding Ûú¸üÖ »Ößו֋… ‡ÃÖß ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê 509 Æîü… šüßÛú Æîü,
‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ¯Ö¸ü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ¯ÖϳÖÖ¾Ö ¯Ö›ÍêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ¯Ö¸ü ×ÛúŸÖ®ÖÖ ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö ›üÖ»ÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ,
‡ÃÖÛúß †Ö¯Ö Ûú»¯Ö®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¤æü¸üÝÖÖ´Öß ¯Ö׸ÞÖÖ´Ö ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… ´Öï ®ÖÆüà
ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú †¯Ö¸üÖ¬ÖÖë ÛúÖê compounding ²Ö®ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖÛêú ×¾Ö¯Ö¸üߟÖ,
•ÖîÃÖÖ †³Öß ˆ¬Ö¸ü ÃÖê ÛúÆüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, 498(‹) ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… †³Öß ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú
ÙïüØ›üÝÖ Ûú´Öê™üß Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ³Öß Æîü ×Ûú 498 ÛúÖ ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü
¯Ö׸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê ŸÖÖê›Íü ¸üÆüß Æîü… ´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ²ÖÖŸÖ Æüß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… 498(‹) ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ
Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ 498(‹) ÛúÖê ‹êÃÖÖ ²Ö®ÖÖ‡‹, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ˆÃÖ´Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
127
®Ö®Ö¤ü Ûúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü… ¾ÖÆü ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´Öë Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö®Ö¤ü ¯ÖÛú›Íüß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü, ÃÖÖÃÖ ¯ÖÛú›Íüß
•ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æî… †³Öß •ÖÖê †ÖÑÛú›Íêü †Ö‹ Æïü, ˆ®Ö´Öë µÖÆü ³Öß †ÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 498(‹) Ûêú 50 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü
ÛêúÃÖê•Ö false ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ˆÃÖÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ‹êÃÖß ¾µÖ¾ÖãÖÖ
Ûúßו֋ ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú ˆÃÖ´Öë investigation complete ®Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖ²Ö ŸÖÛú ˆÃÖ´Öë
×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ®Ö Ûúß •ÖÖ‹… ˆÃÖÃÖê ¯Ö׸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê ×±ú¸ü ÃÖê •ÖÖê›Íü®Öê ÛúÖ Ûú´Ö-ÃÖê-Ûú´Ö ‹Ûú ´ÖÖîÛúÖ
×´Ö»ÖêÝÖÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü ×ÛúÃÖß ¯Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ´ÖÖÑ, ²ÖÖ¯Ö, ²ÖÆü®Ö, ³ÖÖ‡Ô ²Ö®¤ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ˆ®ÖÛêú
¯Ö׸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê †Ö¯ÖÃÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê›Íü®Öê Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ×±ú¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆü •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ¯Ö׸ü¾ÖÖ¸ü •Öã›Íü®Öê ÛúÖê
¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ Ûú´Ö-ÃÖê-Ûú´Ö 498(‹) ÛúÖê compoundable ²Ö®ÖÖ‡‹…
´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ¾ÖÖŒµÖ ×ÃÖ±Ôú µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ÃÖÖ¸üß †×¾Ö¾ÖÖ×ÆüŸÖ »Ö›Íü×ÛúµÖÖÑ •Öê»Ö ³Öê•Öß
•ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æïü, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Æü´Ö ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ, ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ, “ÖæÑ×Ûú ´Öï
¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏןÖ×®Ö×¬Ö ÆæÑü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®Öê ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ³Öß ŸÖÖê ÃÖÖêד֋!
“ÖÖ¸ü-“ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê †±ú•Ö»Ö ÝÖã¹ý ÛúÖê ±úÖÑÃÖß Æãü‡Ô ¯Ö›Íüß Æîü †Öî¸ü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü
µÖÖדÖÛúÖ ÛúÖ ×®ÖßÖÖ¸üÞÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¯ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü, •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ Æü´ÖÃÖê µÖÆü ³Öß ¯Öæ”ûŸÖß Æîü… †Ö¯Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖÖë
†Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ¯ÖÆü»Öê †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®Öê ¤üÖ´Ö®Ö ´Öë ³Öß ŸÖÖê ôÖÖÑÛú Ûú¸ü ¤êü×ÜÖ‹…
“ÖÖ¸ü ¾ÖÂÖÔ »ÖÝÖŸÖê Æïü, ×•Ö®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ÃÖ•ÖÖ Æãü‡Ô Æîü, ˆ®ÖÛúß µÖÖדÖÛúÖ‹Ñ »Ö×´²ÖŸÖ Æïü, “ÖÖÆêü ¾ÖÆü
†±ú•Ö»Ö ÝÖã¹ý ÆüÖê, “ÖÖÆêü ÛúÖê‡Ô †Öî¸ü ÆüÖê… †Ö¯Ö “ÖÖ¸ü ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê ±úÖ‡»Ö move ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¯ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü!
†Ö¯Ö ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖë ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖë ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ŒµÖÖë »ÖÝÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü? ¯ÖÆü»Öê †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®ÖÖ
“ÖêÆü¸üÖ ¤êü×ÜÖ‹, ¯ÖÆü»Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ×®ÖßÖÖ¸üÞÖ Ûúßו֋, ×±ú¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûúßו֋…
¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
(2‹“Ö/Ûêú‹»Ö‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)
SCH-KLS/1.35/2H
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your Party's time was
seven minutes but you took twenty-two minutes. ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü •Öß, †Ö¯Ö
†¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ëü ŸÖÖê †“”ûÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ¤üÖê ²Ö•Öê Æü´Öë µÖÆü ×²Ö»Ö ¯ÖÖÃÖ
Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ Æîü…
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
128
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü (ײÖÆüÖ¸ü): †Ö¯Ö ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß ‘ÖÓ™üß ²Ö•ÖÖ ¤üßו֋ÝÖÖ, ´Öï ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ü ¤æÓüÝÖÖ…
(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: †Ö¯Ö Æü´Öë ³Öß ÃÖã®Ö ×»ÖµÖÖ Ûúßו֋, פüŒÛúŸÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖêÓ ÛúÖê
ÃÖã®ÖŸÖê ®ÖÆüà Æïü…
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: †Ö¯Ö ¹ý×Ûú‹, ¹ý×Ûú‹…
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú׸üµÖ®Ö): ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹…
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüß £Öà, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †Ö•Ö †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ÛúÖê Æüß ÛúÆü
פüµÖÖ… * •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ¾Ö׸üšü ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü ‡®ÖÛúÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê וÖÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß, *
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You are sitting and speaking. ...(Interruptions)...
You should know the rule. ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ®ÖÆüà-®ÖÆüà, ÃÖ¸ü… Æü´Ö ºþ»ÃÖ •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖê ÆîÓ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö Æü´Ö ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú
Æü´Öê¿ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö¾ÖÖ¤üß ¯ÖÖ™üá *
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What is your problem?
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ´Öï ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ¯ÖÖÙ™üµÖÖë Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê פüÜÖÖ ¤æÓüÝÖÖ, ÃÖÖŸÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü Ûêú ²Ö•ÖÖ‹ ¾Öê
²ÖßÃÖ-²ÖßÃÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü *
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is not correct. ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ¾ÖÆü ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ¤ü®Ö Ûúß ¾Ö׸üšü ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ˆ®Æëü ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê ‡Ó×ÝÖŸÖ
Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü †Öî¸ü ¤æüÃÖ¸üß †Öê¸ü Æü´Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü…
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Do not make such allegations.
...(Interruptions)... This is wrong. ...(Interruptions)... I want to make it
clear that the Congress Party had 34 minutes...(Interruptions)... This is
not correct. You see even the Congress Party...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ µÖÆü ‹Ûú ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, “ÖæÓ×Ûú ‹êÃÖÖ ÆüÖê
¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Æü´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ ¯Ö›Íü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü…
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
129
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time was seven
minutes but you took more than twenty-two minutes. ...(Interruptions)...
Whereas the Congress Party had...(Interruptions)... Please do not make
such allegations. ...(Interruptions)... That will not go on record.
...(Interruptions)...That will not go on record. ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ¾Ö߸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: *
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. ....(Interruptions)... You
are such a learned man, you are an advocate, how can you talk and
behave like this? Let me make it clear since you are making an
allegation against the Chair that Congress had 34 minutes, it took less
than half of its time, BJP had 26 minutes and took not a single minute
more than that, CPM had eight minutes and its Member has taken
seven or eight minutes, SP had seven minutes and Bhatiaji started
speaking at 1.12 and finished at 1.35 which means he took 23 minutes.
...(Interruptions)... In place of seven minutes, I allowed him to speak for
more than 22 minutes. ...(Interruptions)... In place of seven minutes, I
allowed him 23 minutes. No other party was allowed so much excess
time. And then if such a senior Member is making an allegation like
this, it is wrong. It should not have been said. This is unbecoming of a
Member to make such an allegation against the Chair.
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öê¸êü ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü †³Öß ¿Öãºþ ÆüÖëÝÖê ®Ö?
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ: šüßÛú Æîü…
_________________________________________________________________
* Not recorded.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
130
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖãôÖê ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ×¤üµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ´Öï ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö
×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß Ûú®Œ»Öæ›ü ÛúºÓþÝÖÖ… ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ŸÖÖê ´Öï ´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ÛúÖê ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü
×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ÃÖ߆ָü¯ÖßÃÖß ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÛúÖ †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü »ÖÖ‹ Æïü… µÖÆü †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü Ûãú”û †“”êû ÛúÖµÖÖí Ûêú
×»Ö‹ »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö) »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‹Ûú ¤üÖê ²ÖÖŸÖë Æüß
¸üÜÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü ¾Öê ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´ÖêÓ Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖß…
¯ÖÆü»Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 327 ´Öë ‹Ûú †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü »ÖÖ‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 327
´Öë ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖêÃÖß•Ö¸ü Æîü, ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖ ¸êü¯Ö ¾ÖÝÖî¸üÆü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖêÃÖß•Ö¸ü Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê
×»ÖÜÖÖ Æîü, "provided that the ban on printing or publication of a trial
proceeding in relation to an offence of rape may be lifted" meaning
thereby ×Ûú ˆÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯Öײ»ÖÛêú¿Ö®Ö ÛúÖ “Öü¸ü Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ×»Ö°™ü Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆüÖ
Æîü ×Ûú "subject to maintaining confidential the name and address of
parties."
psv-sss/2j ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß
PSV-SSS/2J/1.40
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): "Subject to maintaining confidential name and
address of the party." ¯ÖÆü»Öê ‡ÃÖ´Öë µÖÆü £ÖÖ ×Ûú "Where any proceedings are
held in Sub-Section 2, it shall not be lawful for a person to print or
publish any matter in relation to any such proceedings except with the
previous permission of the court." †Ö¯Ö®Öê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ׻ֱ˙ü Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú
‡ÃÖÛúÖ name and address †Ö¯Ö ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü ²Ö×»Ûú †Ö¯Ö ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖê ×®ÖÛúÖ»Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê
Æïü, ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ ×Ûú µÖÆü •ÖÖê
Œ»ÖÖò•ÖÌ Æîü, •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•ÖÌÖê Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ÃÖÆüß ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ²Ö×»Ûú •ÖÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê £ÖÖ ˆÃÖß ÛúÖê ¸üÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹…
Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ trial ÛúÖ •ÖÖê procedure Æî, †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö Ûîú´Ö¸üÖ ´Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖ ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü,
ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÖÆü¸ü ®ÖÆüà ×®ÖÛú»Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ¯ÖÆü»Öê ×®ÖÛú»ÖŸÖÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà £ÖÖ… ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö •ÖÖê
ÆüÖêŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛúÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ ¯Öײ»Ö¿Ö ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖê £Öê… »Öê×Ûú®Ö, †³Öß •ÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê µÖÆü ¤êü פüµÖÖ ×Ûú "The
offence of rape may be lifted subject to maintaining the confidentiality of
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
131
the name and address of the party." •Ö²Ö ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö “Ö»ÖêÝÖÖ ŸÖÖê ®ÖÖ´Ö †Öî¸ü ¯ÖŸÖÖ ŸÖÖê
ˆÃÖ´Öë ¸üÆüŸÖÖ Æüß Æîü, ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»Ö •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ ×Ûú ×ÛúÃÖÛúÖ ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ¯ÖÆü»Öê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê
‹Ûú¤ü´Ö confidential ¸üÜÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÆüà ³Öß ÛúÖê‡Ô פüŒÛúŸÖ ®ÖÆüà †ÖŸÖß £Öß… †²Ö
‡ÃÖÛúÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•ÖÖê ¤êü Ûú¸ü ÜÖŸ´Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯Ö •Ö̸üÖ ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü •Öºþ¸ü Ûú¸ü »Ößו֋ÝÖÖ…
´Öï ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ… 164 ²Öß Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú ˆÃÖÛúÖ
´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü Ûêú µÖÆüÖÑ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü ´ÖוÖÙÒêü™ü Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü »ÖëÝÖê… †²Ö ´Öï ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë
ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, •ÖîÃÖÖ ³Ö¼ü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê ³Öß ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú ‹Ûú ÃÖÖ‡ÛúÖê Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÖ®Öß •ÖÖê
¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ¾ÖÆüÖÑ •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, •ÖÖê ¯ÖÛú›Íê •ÖüÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ׸üÛúÖò›Ôü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ
Æîü, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛúÖê ÃÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ±úßµÖ¸ü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ÃÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ±úßµÖ¸ü ÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö µÖÆü Æãü†Ö ×Ûú ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ÛúÖê‡Ô
¾ÖÛúᯙ ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüŸÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ×ÛúÃÖß ‹ŒµÖæ•›ü ÛúÖê, ×ÛúÃÖß †Ö¤ü´Öß ÛúÖê, וÖÃÖÛúÖê 164 ´Öë Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü
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¸üÆüŸÖê Æïü… ´Öê¸üÖ µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ™üÖ‡´Ö ÝÖî¯Ö ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †ÝÖ¸ü ™üÖ‡´Ö ÝÖî¯Ö ®ÖÆüà
¤êüŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ‹Ûú ÛúÖò¯Öß ¤êü®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ˆÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö ²Ö®ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö
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ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë †¯Öᯙ ³Öß Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü… 164²Öß ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü
ˆÃÖß Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯Ö®Öê 344 ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö®Öê Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü פüµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü retract
Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÛúÖ®Öæ®Öß ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö ´Öë »ÖÖ Ûú¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ÃÖ•ÖÖ ³Öß ×¤ü»Ö¾ÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ
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ˆÃÖÛúÖê •Öê»Ö ´Öë ³Öê•Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü ¾ÖÆü ¤êü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúß ‹Ûú ÛúÖò¯Öß ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¤êü®Öß
“ÖÖ×Æü‹… †ÝÖ¸ü ˆÃÖÛúÖê ‹êÃÖÖ »ÖÝÖê ×Ûú Æü´Ö®Öê ‹êÃÖÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü פüµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´Ö ˆÃÖÛúÖê ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö
Ûêú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ-- ŒµÖÖë×Ûú 164 ÛúÖ •ÖÖê Ùêü™ü´Öë™ü Æî,ü ¾ÖÆü ×ÃÖ±Ôú ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö Ûêú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü, ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ³Öß
ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öë ¸üÆüŸÖß Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¾ÖÛúᯙ ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ †ÝÖ¸ü ¾ÖÆü ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë ˆÃÖÛúÖ
retract Ûú¸êü µÖÖ †¯Öᯙ Ûú¸êü ×Ûú Æü´Ö®Öê µÖÆü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö ´Öë פüµÖÖ £ÖÖ ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ‹êÃÖÖ ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö
ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ŸÖ³Öß •ÖÖê ‹ŒµÖæ•›ü Æîü, •ÖÖê †¯Ö®ÖÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖê ‹êÃÖÖ »ÖÝÖêÝÖÖ
×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü †³Öß ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ®Öê Æü´ÖÃÖê •Ö»¤ü²ÖÖ•Öß ´Öë µÖÆü Ûú¸üÖ ×¤üµÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê Æü´Ö ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë ˆÃÖÛúÖê †¯Öß»Ö
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
132
Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü, retract Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öê¸üß µÖÆü ¸üÖµÖ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹êÃÖÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö
•Öºþ¸ü ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹…
†ÓŸÖ ´Öë “ÖæÑ×Ûú 5 ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ‹Ûú-¤üÖê ×´Ö®Ö™ü ŸÖÖê ´Öê¸üÖ ‹êÃÖê Æüß “Ö»ÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ´Öï
†ÓŸÖ ´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÖê ¬µÖÖ®Ö ´Öë ¸üÜÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ ×Ûú •ÖÖê ‹ŒµÖæ•›ü ÆüÖêŸÖê Æïü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ
ÛúÖê ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ¯ÖÖ¾Ö¸ü ´ÖŸÖ ¤êü ¤üßו֋ ŸÖÖ×Ûú »ÖÝÖê ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛúÖê ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÃÖê ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¯ÖÖ¾Ö¸ü †Ö ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü,
†Ö¯Ö ¤êüÜÖ »Ößו֋… ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛúÖê ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ¯ÖÖ¾Ö¸ü ´ÖŸÖ ¤üßו֋ ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô restriction ®ÖÆüà
¸üÆêü… (2Ûêú/‹“Ö0‹´Ö0‹ÃÖ0 ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)
2K/HMS-NBR/1.45
ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ×»ÖÜÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú tampering of the evidence †Öî¸ü
threatening ÆüÖêÝÖß… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ¯ÖÆü»Öê ŸÖÖê Æü´Ö tampering of evidence Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ¤ü¸üܾÖÖßÖ
¤êüŸÖê £Öê, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †²Ö ŸÖÖê ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛúÖê Æüß ¯ÖÖò¾Ö¸ü ×´Ö»Ö ÝÖµÖß Æîü… ‡ÃÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ³Öß †Ö¯Ö ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü
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¸üÖ‡™ËüÃÖ ÛúÖ ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖ †ÖŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü torture ÛúÖ ³Öß ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖ †ÖŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë
•Öºþ¸ü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûúßו֋… ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ÛúÆüÛú¸ü ´Öï †¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…
¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤,ü †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖãôÖê 5 ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ×¤üµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ‘ÖÓ™üß ®ÖÆüà ²Ö•ÖÖ®Öß ¯Ö›Íüß…
(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê0 ¯Öß0•Öê0 Ûãú׸üµÖ®Ö) : ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ´ÖÖµÖÖ ØÃÖÆü…
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ´ÖÖµÖÖ ØÃÖÆü (´Ö¬µÖ ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü, ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖãôÖê ‡ÃÖ ¤Óü›ü ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ
ÃÖÓ×ÆüŸÖÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú, 2006 ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»Ö®Öê ÛúÖ ´ÖÖîÛúÖ ×¤üµÖÖ…
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ Ûêú «üÖ¸üÖ †ŒÃÖ¸ü •ÖÖê ÃÖ»ÖæÛú ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü,
Ûú³Öß-Ûú³Öß ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ‡ŸÖ®Öê ×®Ö´®Ö ßָü ÛúÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú וÖÃÖê ¿Ö²¤üÖë ´Öë ÛúÆü®ÖÖ ´Öã׿Ûú»Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü
Ûãú”û ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ‹Ó ŸÖÖê ¿ÖÖ»Ö߮֟ÖÖ Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ ³Öß ¯ÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü •ÖÖŸÖß Æïü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ‡ÃÖê ²Ö²ÖÔ¸üŸÖÖ¯ÖæÞÖÔ ÛúÆæÓü
ŸÖÖê †×ŸÖ¿ÖµÖÖê׌ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡ÃÖ ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ´Öë ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Æîü ×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ
¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß Ûêú †×ŸÖ׸üŒŸÖ †®µÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ˆÃÖÛêú
¿Ö¸ü߸ü ÛúÖê ”æû ®ÖÆüà ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ… µÖÆü ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûúß ÝÖ׸ü´ÖÖ Ûêú †®ÖãÛæú»Ö Æîü… ‡ÃÖß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÜÖÓ›ü 8
´Öë ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûúß •ÖÖ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öß ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûêú ¿Ö¸ü߸ü Ûúß ¯Ö¸üßõÖÖ ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ×“Ö×ÛúŸÃÖÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß «üÖ¸üÖ
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
133
Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖ‹ •ÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ´Öï ˆÃÖÛúÖ ³Öß Ã¾ÖÖÝÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÓü… †Öî¸ü ÜÖÓ›ü 11 ´Öë
²Ö»ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖÓ‘Ö †¯Ö¸üÖ¬Ö Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ¯Öß×›ÍüŸÖ ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö µÖÖ Ûú£Ö®Ö ÛúÖê ¯Öß×›ÍüŸÖ ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûêú
×®Ö¾ÖÖÃÖ µÖÖ ˆÃÖÛúß ¯ÖÃÖÓ¤ü Ûêú ãÖÖ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü µÖÖ ˆÃÖÛêú ´ÖÖŸÖÖ-ׯ֟ÖÖ µÖÖ ÃÖÓ¸üõÖÛú µÖÖ ®Ö•Ö¤üßÛúß
׸ü¿ŸÖê¤üÖ¸üÖë Ûúß ˆ¯Ö×ãÖ×ŸÖ µÖÖ ˆÃÖ õÖê¡Ö Ûúß ÃÖÖ´ÖÖוÖÛú ÛúÖµÖÔÛúŸÖÖÔ Ûúß ˆ¯Ö×ãÖ×ŸÖ ´Öë ×ÛúÃÖß ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ
¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß «üÖ¸üÖ ×¸üÛúÖò›Ôü ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö ‡ÃÖ ´Öë ¯ÖÏßÖÖ×¾ÖŸÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ³Öß ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ
Ûúß ÝÖ׸ü´ÖÖ ÛúÖê ²ÖœÍüÖ‹ÝÖÖ… ´Öï ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÛúÖê ‡ÃÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü ¤êüŸÖß ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖ
þÖÖÝÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÓü ŒµÖÖë×Ûú µÖÆü Ûú¤ü´Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûúß ÝÖ׸ü´ÖÖ ÛúÖê ¯ÖÏןÖãÖÖ×¯ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê ÛúÖ ‹Ûú ¯ÖϵÖÖÃÖ
Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖß ×Ûú µÖÆü ¯ÖϵÖÖÃÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆëü ²Ö×»Ûú ‡®ÖÛúÖ Ûú›ÍüÖ‡Ô ÃÖê ¯ÖÖ»Ö®Ö
ÆüÖê †Öî¸ ü‡®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ®Ö•Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖß •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹…
(ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ¯ÖßšüÖÃÖß®Ö Æãü‹)
´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ¯Öæ¸üß ÃÖÖê“Ö †Öî¸ü ÃÖ´ÖôÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ®ÖÆüà
»ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ´Öë 1973 ´Öë ¤Óü›ü ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÃÖÓ×ÆüŸÖÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ¾µÖÖ¯ÖÛú ¯Ö׸ü¾ÖŸÖÔ®Ö ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹
†Öî¸ü ‹Ûú ÃÖ´ÖÝÖÏ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê×¬ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÛúÖ ×¾Ö×¬ÖµÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ²Ö¤ü»Öß Æãü‡Ô ¯Ö׸ü×ãÖןֵÖÖë
´Öë ÃÖ´ÖµÖ-ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü µÖÆü †®Öã³Ö¾Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú 1973 ÛúÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú †Ö•Ö Ûúß
†Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ¯Öæ¸üÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, 5 ¾ÖÂÖÖí ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Ûêú ×»Ö‹ 3
ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ¯Öê¿Ö ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ “ÖãÛêú Æïü - ¯ÖÆü»ÖÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú 2003 ´Öë †ÖµÖÖ ×•ÖÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü
ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ‹Ûú ×™ü¯¯ÖÞÖß Æîü, ´Öï †Ö¯Ö Ûúß †®Öã´Ö×ŸÖ ÃÖê ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ˆÃÖ ×™ü¯¯ÖÞÖß
ÛúÖê ¿Ö²¤ü¿Ö: ÛúÖê™ü Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÓü:
"The Committee is very keen of revamping Criminal Justice System and
feel that the Government should attempt to bring a comprehensive Bill,
particularly, in the light of Reports of various Commissions, Committees
and Studies on the Criminal Justice System. The Committee is of the
view that if that takes a long time, then, at least, the Code of Criminal
Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 1994, and the present Bill may be merged
and a composite Bill be introduced in Parliament, rather than introducing
piecemeal legislation separately. Deliberations took place in the
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
134
Committee on the urgent need for introducing policy reforms in the light
of widespread allegations of corruption, inaction and politicisation of
police force."
(CONTD. BY USY "2L")
2K/KLG-USY/1.50
SHRIMATI MAYA SINGH (CONTD.): The Committee urges the
Government for immediate initiation of measures for reforming the police
system in the country." ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß µÖÆü ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2005 Ûúß Æîü †Öî¸ü ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü
×Ûú ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ‡®Ö ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë ÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô †ÃÖ¸ü Æüß ®ÖÆüà ¯Ö›ÍüÖ… ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2006 ´Öë ×±ú¸ü
‹Ûú ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ÛúÖ ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú †ÖµÖÖ, וÖÃÖ´Öë ×Ûú ´ÖÖ¡Ö ‹Ûú ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ¯ÖÏßÖÖ×¾ÖŸÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛêú
²ÖÖ¤ü ×±ú¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2006 ´Öë Æüß »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ŸÖÛú µÖÆü
ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ÆüÖ‡²Ö¸ü®Öê¿Ö®Ö ´Öë ¯Ö›ÍüÖ ¸üÆüÖ †Öî¸ü †²Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2008 Ûêú †ÓŸÖ ´Öë µÖÆü Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê Æîü… ‡ÃÖ´Öë
´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ®Öê ‡ŸÖ®Öê ¾µÖÖ¯ÖÛú ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ¯ÖÏßÖÖ×¾ÖŸÖ ×Ûú‹ Æïü, וÖÃÖÃÖê ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü
ÜÖã¤ü ³Öß ‡ÃÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú Ûêú ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ ´Öë ïÖ™ü ®ÖÆüà Æîü †Öî¸ü ¯ÖŸÖÖ ®ÖÆüà, ×Ûú®Ö ÛúÖ¸üÞÖÖë ÃÖê
Æü›Íü²Ö›Íüß ´Öë ¾ÖÆü ‡ÃÖ ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ÛúÖê ¯ÖÖ׸üŸÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß Æîü?
´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ×¸ü±úÖò´ÖÔ †Öî¸ü ¤Óü›ü ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÃÖÓ×ÆüŸÖÖ ´Öë †Öî¸ü ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸ü »ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹
ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ®Öê ‹Ûú ´ÖÖ¬Ö¾Ö ´Öê®Ö®Ö ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ ÛúÖ ÝÖšü®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ³Öß †Ö‹ ‹Ûú
ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê †×¬ÖÛú ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖß ÃÖ¤ü®Ö ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ‹Ûú ÃÖ´´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ Ûêú ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûêú
ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë þֵÖÓ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÖ¬Ö¾Ö ´Öê®Ö®Ö ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÖ•µÖ-ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸üÖë
Ûêú †×³Ö´ÖŸÖ •ÖÖ®Ö®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ‡®Ö ×ÃÖ±úÖ׸ü¿ÖÖë Ûêú ÛÎú´Ö ´Öë ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏÖºþ¯Ö ŸÖîµÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ³Öê•ÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü…
‡ÃÖß ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûêú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë †ÖÝÖê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ¸üÖ•µÖÖë Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸üÖë ®Öê ŸÖÖê †¯Ö®ÖÖ †×³Ö´ÖŸÖ ¤êü
פüµÖÖ Æîü, ²ÖÖÛúß ¿ÖêÂÖ ¸üÖ•µÖÖë ÃÖê †³Öß †×³Ö´ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏÖ¯ŸÖ ÆüÖê®ÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÑü ×Ûú ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü
‡ÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü? Ûú²Ö ŸÖÛú ²ÖÖÛúß ¸üÖ•µÖÖë ÃÖê †×³Ö´ÖŸÖ †Ö •ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê? ‡ÃÖ ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ ´Öë
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
135
ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ²ÖÖ¸ü-²ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö »ÖÖ®Öê ÃÖê •ÖÆüÖÓ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß ‡ÃÖ ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ
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†Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖÖë ´Öë ³Öß Ûú®°µÖæ•Ö®Ö Ûúß ×ãÖ×ŸÖ ˆŸ¯Ö®®Ö ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü… •ÖÖê ³Öß ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú Ûêú µÖÆü
ÆüÖ»ÖÖŸÖ šüßÛú ®ÖÆüà Æïü… ¾ÖîÃÖê ´Öê¸üß ¯ÖÖ™üßÔ Ûêú •ÖÖê ¾ÖŒŸÖÖ Æïü, ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ×¾ÖßÖÖ¸ü ÃÖê ‡ÃÖ ×²Ö»Ö Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë
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‹êÃÖê Æïü, ו֮ÖÛúÖ ´Öï ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, þÖÖÝÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß Ûêú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü óÖÖׯ֟Ö
Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ¯ÖõÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö Ûãú”û ´Öë ‹êÃÖß ×ãÖ×ŸÖ Æîü, ×•Ö®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ´Öï
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(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (WEST BENGAL): Sir, since my colleague
has already spoken on the major aspects of the Bill, I am not going to
repeat them. I am just going to confine myself to certain issues
concerning women.
I welcome the special provisions made for the protection of
women in the various sections of the Bill. But I would like to urge upon
the hon. Home Minister that since he has just taken over this office, he
would not be aware that women's organizations have worked very hard
for a comprehensive Bill on sexual assault. The present Criminal
Procedure Code, and even the amendments that are being moved
today, deal with this issue in a piecemeal manner. After studying the
international law, we want a comprehensive law on sexual assault,
dealing with different degrees of sexual assault. I think, if that could be
considered, then, these various provisions, which are being brought in
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the Bill, could be put together. It would have a salutary effect to deal
with the increasing crime against women. So, that is my first request
which I would like to make to the hon. Minister.
Then, my major problem with these amendments is on the issue
of making some of the crimes against women as compoundable crimes.
There is a view in the society, which we have been fighting against, and
it used to be a prevalent view, that what happens within the domestic
sphere is a private matter to be dealt with between the husband and the
wife or those who have perpetuated violence against violence. And, this
was the prevailing patriarchal notion for which reason much of the
violence against women, within the home, was really never taken up as
a social crime.
(Contd. by 2m -- VP)
VP/1.55/2M
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): And, women suffered as a result
of it. I think, our enlightened lawmakers in the Indian Parliament,
recognising the social implications of such crimes against
women...(Interruptions).. Sir, it is very disturbing for a speaker when all
are coming and going. It is very disturbing. I cannot speak in such a
situation.
Sir, it was the progressive outlook of our lawmakers which
accepted this struggle of women's movements and brought many of
these crimes, which were hitherto hidden, into the public domain. They,
in fact, recognised all aspects of crimes against women as social crimes
in which the State and society have a role to ensure that they are not
committed.
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137
Now, there is this whole issue of making these crimes
compoundable. Everyone knows that for compounding of an offence,
there are two tables in the Criminal Procedure Code. The first table lists
certain crimes in which even after a complaint is made or an FIR is filed,
if the two parties come to an agreement of withdrawing a case, then,
that case gets withdrawn. And in dealing with this, the One Hundred
and Fifty Fourth Commission said, "The rationale for compounding of
offences is that the chastened attitude of the accused and the
praiseworthy attitude of the complainant in order to restore peace and
harmony in society must be given effect to in the composition of
offences." Now, unfortunately, according to the experience of women,
this kind of an understanding is completely divorced from the reality that
women face because it is precisely violence which is destroying peace
and harmony in our society. And, in a situation where relationship
between the person perpetrating violence and the victim of that violence
is unequal, then, very often, the compounding of an offence in an
unequal relationship forces, and is an instrument of coercion, to
compound the offence. We have tried it. And, this is one of the very
important struggles of our movement. Please don't dilute the crime by
making it a personal crime and making it compoundable. Therefore, I
was very distressed to see that in a report in which so many important
provisions have been made for the protection of women, this aspect has
also been added. Therefore, I have moved amendments on some of
these aspects. The first one is this. It is a very, very important one. It
deals with section 324: voluntarily causing hurt by dangerous weapons
or means. It says, "Whoever, except in the case provided by section
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138
334, voluntarily causes hurt by means of any instrument for shooting,
stabbing, or cutting or any instrument which, used as weapon of
offence, is likely to cause death or by means of fire or any heated
substance.." Now, we have had such cases. Everybody knows this
whole phenomenon of death by burning. If you are going to bring
section 324, which is often used in such cases, into a compoundable
offence -- you are introducing it in the first table -- I think, it is going to
be extremely unjustifiable. Therefore, I urge upon the hon. Home
Minister, please don't do this and please remove this from the
compoundable crimes. And, the other amendment which I moved is
this.
(Continued by PB/2N)
PB/2N/2.00
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): Then, there is Section 312.
Section 312 deals with the crime which concerns miscarriage and
causing miscarriage of a woman. That is now being brought into a
compoundable crime. I think this is absolutely unacceptable. We have
the Termination of Pregnancy Act, which is an Act on its own. It gives a
right to abortion for a woman. We support the right to abortion. But, at
the same time, 'causing miscarriage' and to make 'causing miscarriage'
compoundable, I think, is not something which can be accepted.
Then, we have Section 406. As everyone knows, 406 is more often
than not used as a criminal breach of trust which is used in retrieving
dowry in cases where the dowry is not being returned to a woman who
has been abandoned or deserted, and, in many of those cases also,
Section 406 is used. The present 406 is in Table 2. I would request that
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139
the status quo is maintained and this should not be shifted to Table 1
where only the two parties can do it.
Similarly, Sir, the other very important amendments, which I have
moved, refer to the issue of sexual harassment. Now, 354 is a very
serious crime and if you look at the rate of crime of the increase in this,
you will find that in 2005, there were 34,000 cases registered; in 2006,
there were 36,000 cases registered; and, in 2007, there were almost
39,000 cases registered, just below 39,000 cases. So, this is a very
serious crime. It is already there in Table 2 but I would really request the
Home Minister to delete it from the compoundable offences so that the
seriousness of the crime can be recognised by the society and action
taken.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How much more time do you need?
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I have finished. I have just got one
more amendment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why I am asking this is because we have to
take the other Bill at 2 o'clock.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I have finished. Then, as far as
compensation is concerned, we have moved a draft which is before the
Home Ministry which concerns acid attacks on women and other attacks
like that; and we have asked for a separate Commission to be set up for
compensation both at the Centre and in the States. In this amendment,
what they are suggesting is that the District Legal Service Authority or
the State Legal Service Authority should be the Committee which can
decide on the compensation. If it is possible -- I mean, I don't accept
the Home Minister to immediately respond now -- and if he could
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140
consider that we require a separate Committee to deal with this issue of
compensation, it would be really helpful. Sir, why I am saying so is
because along with acid attacks, many courts are suggesting that a
State not give compensation but different types of victims of violence
among women should also be given some kind of rehabilitation. So, I
think, it would be very helpful to women if a separate Committee could
be set up. That would be something which would be very helpful to
women. (Ends)
BILLS INTRODUCED
THE CENTRAL INDUSTRIAL SECURITY FORCE (AMENDMENT) BILL,
2008
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Sir, I
beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Central
Industrial Security Force Act, 1968.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I introduce the Bill. (Ends)
(Followed by 2o/SKc)
2o/2.05/skc-vnk
THE RAILWAY PROPERTY (UNLAWFUL POSSESSION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008
¸êü»Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß (ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ¯ÖÏßÖÖ¾Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÑü,
×Ûú ¸êü»Ö ÃÖÓ¯Ö×¢Ö (×¾Ö×¬Ö ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Ûú²•ÖÌÖ) †×¬Ö×®ÖµÖ´Ö, 1966 ÛúÖ †Öî¸ü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú
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The question was put and the motion was adopted.
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
141
PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE (CONTD.)
SUPPLEMENTARY DEMANDS FOR GRANTS (GENERAL) 2008-2009
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY
AFFAIRS (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Sir, on behalf of my colleague,
Shri Pawan Kumar Bansal, I beg to lay on the Table a statement (in
English and Hindi) showing the Second Batch of the Supplementary
Demands for Grants (General) for the year 2008-09. (Ends)
ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ supplementary ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúÖ Æîü…
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£ÖÖ…
ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÃÖ²Ö correct ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü…
DISCUSSION ON THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 (Contd.)
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Sir, I
am grateful to the seven hon. Members who have participated in this
debate on amendment to the Criminal Procedure Code.
Sir, at the outset, I wish to say that this exercise has been gone
through rather elaborately by the Committee and we have accepted
many of the suggestions made by the Committee. The Criminal
Procedure code is amended from time to time. I don't think there would
ever be a point of time when we can say that all the amendments
required to be carried out in the Code have been carried out and
nothing more needs to be done, because as we live and learn, the Code
has to be amended from time to time. Therefore, there are some
amendments which have not yet been proposed and some amendments
of the Committee which have not been accepted by the Government. I
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142
would like to request hon. Members to show some forbearance because
as time goes on, many of these amendments can be considered again
in greater depth and accepted.
Sir, these amendments which have been introduced today are
based on suggestions made by the Law Commission in its 154th and
177th Reports and these Reports have been studied and examined in
consultation with the State Governments. The matter was examined by a
group of officers and then the Bill was introduced in 2006 in the Rajya
Sabha. I don't need to go into the various provisions which have been
introduced; they are there before the House. An important feature of the
Bill relates to what is called "victimology". Provisions are being made
that the victim of a crime can also engage an advocate of his or her
choice to assist an investigation. A scheme is being formulated to
provide compensation to victims of crimes. One of the most important
features of the amending Bill is the provision of protection to women. It
has been proposed that all rape cases, as far as practicable, would be
tried in the court of a woman judge. I take note of what the hon.
Member said. It may not be possible to have a woman judge in every
court where rape cases are tried. Therefore, the Section says, 'as far as
practicable'. The medical examination for arrested women would be
done only by or under the supervision of a female medical practitioner.
Investigation in cases of rape has to be conducted at the residence of
the victim, as far as practicable, by a woman police officer, and all these
provisions have been made. Granting frequent adjournments is a major
cause of delay. Belonging to that profession, I am willing to plead guilty
for that. Therefore, I think we have to put a lid on adjournments. Many,
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143
many years ago, when a criminal trial started, it cannot be interrupted.
When PW1 goes into the box, until arguments commence, there can be
no adjournments at all. Today we find PW1 examined by one judge and
PW2 being examined by another judge six months later. That is hardly
conducive to a fair trial of a criminal case. Therefore, I think the stricter
provisions that we have introduced are correct. Although Mr. Bhatia
pointed out that it could work hardship, I think some discipline has to
come, both in the engagement of lawyers and in the acceptance of
briefs. (Contd. by 2p/hk)
HK/2p/2.10
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Pendency in court is also a major
cause, which has been engaging the attention of the Government, while
other measures are being taken by the Law Ministry through this Bill.
Some more offences are being made compoundable. I take note of
what Shrimati Karat has said and I will, when she moves amendment,
respond to that appropriately. I have discussed the matter with her.
Special provisions are being made through this Bill for enquiry and trial
of persons with unsound mind. They should also get a fair trial.
Another issue that has caught the imagination of people relates to video
conferencing. I was a little disappointed or maybe surprised that Mr.
Bhatia opposed audio-video recordings. I think this has now come to
stay world over. Audio-video recordings are routinely made, and I think
we should also introduce this into our criminal justice system. As I said,
the Bill was introduced on the 23rd of August 2006; the Standing
Committee submitted its Report on 16th August, 2007. We have
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144
examined the suggestions. Many suggestions have been accepted. It
has not been possible to accept some suggestions. I regret that. But
that does not mean that chapter is closed. We still have an open mind.
We can examine that once again. I think amendments which are made
are steps in a positive direction which will help to make the Criminal
Procedure Code more humane to law-abiding citizens but more difficult
for those who try to violate the law. With these words, Sir, I commend
the Bill to this House and request that the Bill be passed. There are a
number of official amendments. In fact, there are more official
amendments than private Members' amendments as a result of which
many of the provisions originally introduced are being dropped. As we
come to them, I will say which are the provisions being dropped and the
original provision in the Cr. P.C. is being restored. So, much of the
debate is really answered with official amendments. I request that
amendments be taken up. I will respond to her amendments as she
moves them.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, the question is:
"That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal `Procedure,
1973 be taken into consideration."
The motion was adopted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause
consideration of the Bill.
We shall now take up clause 2. In clause 2, there are three
amendments (Nos. 3 to 5) by the hon. Minister.
Clause 2 -Amendment of Section 2
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145
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
3. That at page 1, for lines 8 and 9, the following be substituted,
namely:-
"principal Act), after clause (w), the following clause shall be
inserted, namely:-
4. That at page 1, lines 10 and 11, be deleted.
5. That at page 2, lines 1 and 2, be deleted.
The questions were put and the motions were adopted.
Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause 3. In clause 3,
there is one amendment (No.6) by the hon. Minister.
Clause 3 - Amendment of Section 24
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
6. That at page 2, lines 6 and 7, for the words "co-ordinate with
the prosecution in consultation with the Central Government or
the State Government, as the case may be,", the words "assist
the prosecution", be substituted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
Clause 3, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 4 was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause 5. In clause 5,
there are four amendments (Nos.7 to 10) by the hon. Minister.
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146
Clause 5 - Amendment of Section 41.
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147
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
7. That at page 2, line 18, for the words "credible information has
been received", the words "a reasonable complaint has been
made, or credible information has been received, or a
reasonable suspicion exists"; be substituted.
8. That at page 2, line 20, for the words "which may extend to
seven years", the words "which may be less than seven years
or which may extend to seven years" be substituted.
9. That at page 2, lines 22 and 23, for the words "that
information", the words "such complaint, information, or
suspicion"; be substituted.
10. That at page 2, for lines 27 to 29, the following be substituted,
namely:-
"(b) for proper investigation of the offence; or";
The questions were put and the motions were adopted.
Clause 5, as amended, was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause 6. In clause 6,
there is one amendment (No.11) by the hon. Minister.
Clause 6- Insertion of new sections 41A, 41B, 41C and 41D.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
11. That at page 3, for lines 5 to 9, the following be substituted,
namely:-
"41A.(1) The police officer may, in all cases where the arrest
of a person is not required under the provisions of section
41(1), issue a notice directing the person against whom a
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148
reasonable complaint has been made, or credible information
has been received, or a reasonable suspicion exists that he has
committed a cognizable offence, to appear before him or at
such other place as may be specified in the notice.".
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
Clause 6, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 7 was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause 8. In clause 8,
there are five amendments (Nos.12 to 16) by the hon. Minister.
Clause 8 - Substitution of new section for section 54. Examination of
arrested person by medical practitioner.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
12. That at page 4, in the marginal heading, for the words "medical
practitioner", the words "medical officer", be substituted.
13. That at page 4, lines 10 and 11, for the words "registered
medical practitioner", the words "medical officer in the service
of Central or State Government, and in case the medical officer
is not available, by a registered medical practitioner"; be
substituted.
14. That at page 4, lines 13 and 14, for the words "female
registered medical practitioner", the words "female medical
officer, and in case the female medical officer is not available, a
female registered medical practitioner"; be substituted.
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149
15. That at page 4, line 15, for the words "registered medical
practitioner", the words "medical officer or a registered medical
practitioner"; be substituted.
16. That at page 4, line 20, for the words "medical practitioner", the
words "medical officer or registered medical practitioner, as the
case may be,"; be substituted.
The questions were put and the motions were adopted.
Clause 8, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clauses 9 and 10 were added to the Bill.
(Contd. by KSK/2q)
KSK/2.15/2Q
CLAUSE 11 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 157 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 11. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.17. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
17. That at page 4, for lines 32 to 35, the following be substituted,
namely:-
"Provided further that in relation to an offence of rape,
the recording of statement of the victim shall be conducted at the
residence of the victim or in the place of her choice and as far as
practicable by a woman police officer in the presence of her
parents or guardian or near relatives or social worker of the
locality.".
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150
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 11, as amended, was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 12 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 161 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 12. There are
two amendments - amendments No. 18 and 19. Hon. Minister to move
the amendments.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
18. That at page 4, lines 40 to 43, be deleted.
19. That at page 5, lines 1 to 5, be deleted.
The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 12, as amended, was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 13 - SUBSTITUTION OF NEW SECTION FOR SECTION 162 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 13. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.20. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
20. That at page 5, clause 13, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 13, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 14 was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 15 - INSERTION OF NEW SECTION 164B MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 15. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.21. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
21. That at pages 5 and 6, clause 15, be deleted.
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151
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 15, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clauses 16 to 21 were added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 22 - OMISSION OF SECTIONS 251 TO 259 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 22. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.22. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
22. That at page 7, clause 22, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 22, as amended, was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 23 - SUBSTITUTION OF NEW SECTION FOR SECTION 260 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 23. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.23. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
23. That at page 7, clause 23, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 23, as amended, was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 24 - SUBSTITUTION OF NEW SECTION FOR SECTION 262 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 24. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.24. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
24. That at pages 7 and 8, clause 24, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 24, as amended, was added to the Bill. CLAUSE 25 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 263
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152
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 25. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.25. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
25. That at page 8, clause 25, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 25, as amended, was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 26 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 274 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 26. There is
one amendment - Amendment No.26. Hon. Minister to move the
amendment.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
26. That at page 8, clause 26, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 26, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 27 was added to the Bill.
CLAUSE 28 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 309 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 28. There are
two amendments - Amendments No.27 and 28. Hon. Minister to move
the amendments.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
27. That at page 9, lines 1 to 5, be deleted.
28. That at page 9, line 6, for the bracket and alphabet "(d)", the bracket and alphabet "(c)", be substituted.
The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 28, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 29 was added to the Bill. (followed by 2r - gsp)
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153
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154
GSP-MCM/2.20/2R SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, there are a number of amendments to
Clause 30. The official amendments are amendment nos. 29 and 42.
We can take amendment no. 42 later. You please call amendment no.
29 now.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We can take amendment nos. 29 and 42
together.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, no. Actually, amendment no. 42 is really
following Mrs. Karat's amendment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, but her amendments are from 35 to 40.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I know, but amendment no. 42 follows her
amendment. Therefore, my request is to please take amendment no. 29
first, then, you can take from amendment no. 30 onwards. Then, we will
come to amendment no. 42.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay.
CLAUSE 30 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 320 SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move amendment no. 29 to
Clause 30. Sir, I move:
That at page 11, line 20, for the word "Ditto", the words "the
husband of the woman and the woman", be substituted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Now, Sir, you may kindly take up
amendments no. 35 to 40, one by one. I am accepting some, and, if I
am not accepting, I will explain that to her.
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155
Sir, with regard to amendment no. 35, at page 9, she wants
'inclusion of Section 324 as a compoundable offence' to be deleted. I
accept that amendment. Therefore, you can put that first to vote.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I move:
That at page 9, lines 29-30 be deleted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the amendment no. 35 moved
by Shrimati Brinda...(Interruptions)...
DR. K. KESHAVA RAO: Sir, it is already there. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Wait. Wait. (Interruptions) Don't confuse.
DR. K. KESHAVA RAO: Where is the confusion, Sir? There is a
section..(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: This amendment is to Clause 30 that at
page 9, lines 29-30 be deleted. It concerns section 324, which I just
read out. But you were not in the House at that time.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Let me explain, Sir. Under the present
Criminal Procedure Code, Sections 323 and 334 are compoundable in
Table 1. Section 324 is not compoundable. We are introducing Section
324 as compoundable. A case is being made that Section 324 should not
be made compoundable because Section 324 is an offence of voluntary
causing hurt by dangerous weapons or means. I accept Mrs. Karat's
case that Section 324 should not be compoundable. Therefore, the
amendment may be accepted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now, I shall now put amendment no.
35 moved by Shrimati Brinda Karat to vote.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
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156
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, next is the amendment no. 36, which also
I accept.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, this is amendment No. 36 that in clause
30, page 10, lines 5 to 7 be deleted.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, if I may respond to it, this relates to
Section 406, Criminal Breach of Trust. It is now in Table 2. It is being
brought into Table 1. She says, let it remain in Table 2. I accept it.
Let it remain in Table 2. We may take it out of Table 1.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Thank you, Sir. I am grateful to the
Minister. (interruptions) Sir, now, since the Minister has said that he is
going to keep the status-quo...(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I move:
That at page 10, lines 5 to 7, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, regarding amendment no. 37, in view of
the Minister's official amendment on this clause, I do not want to press
this amendment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, amendment no. 37 is not pressed.
(Contd. by YSR-2S)
-GSP/YSR/2.25/2S
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): Sir, I am pressing for
Amendment No.38.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can press it.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I beg to move:
That at page 12, lines 7 and 8, be deleted.
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157
This relates to Section 312, that is, causing miscarriage to a
woman. I have already moved the amendment. In my speech I
explained it. I move that amendment.
The question was proposed.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I am unable to accept this amendment for
the following reason.
Section 312 is about causing miscarriage and if I may read Section
312 with the IPC, 'causing miscarriage whoever causes a woman with
child to miscarry, shall, if such miscarriage be not caused in good faith
be punished.'
Section 313 is, causing miscarriage without woman's consent.
Whoever commits the offence defined in the last preceding section shall
be punished if it is done without a woman's consent.
Section 314 provides for with woman's consent. The problem
about miscarriage is that it can happen in a variety of ways. And I am
told that it is difficult to pinpoint whether the miscarriage was a natural
miscarriage or a miscarriage deliberately caused. Therefore, the
recommendation is that if a miscarriage has been caused under Section
312, if the woman consents, it can be compounded with the permission
of the court, because this occurs in table 2 not in table 1. Therefore,
first you must have the consent of the woman, and, secondly, it must
be with the permission of the court. I think arguments can be made on
both the sides. But I would appeal to Shrimati Brinda Karat that since it
is in table 2, it has to be with the consent of the woman and it is with
the permission of the court. Let it remain as it is as we have introduced
by way of an amendment.
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158
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I withdraw my amendment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Amendment No.38 is not pressed.
Amendment (No.38) was, by leave, withdrawn.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, in Section 354, I press to move the
amendment No.39.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can press it.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I beg to move:
That at page 12, lines 18 and 19, be deleted.
The question was proposed.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I accept your amendment. You may kindly
put amendment No.39 to vote. I accept your amendment.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: You are a much better Home Minister than
you were a Finance Minister. Sir, I have to congratulate him.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I don't know whether I am a much better
Home Minister, but she is more reasonable in talking about criminal law
than financial matters.
SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, today, it is Mr. Chidambaram's turn to give her
a backhanded compliment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put amendment No. 39 moved by
Shrimati Brinda Karat to vote. The question is:
That at page 12, lines 18 and 19, be deleted.
The motion was adopted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you pressing for Amendment No.40?
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: I am not pressing, Sir.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: She is not pressing it, Sir.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
159
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now amendment No.41.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I will explain it.
The District Legal Service Authority and the State Legal Service
Authority have a woman member. Therefore, let us leave it there at that
and we will see it later.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, are you withdrawing?
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Yes, Sir.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Amendment No.41 is not pressed.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I am moving Amendment No.42. I have
given notice of amendment No.42 to restore 406 to table 2.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You can move it.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move:
42. That at page 12 after line 24 the following be inserted namely:-
"Criminal breach of trust 406 The owner of property in
respect of trust has been
committed.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 30, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 31 was added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 32, there is one amendment No.30.
Clause -32 Amendment of Section 328
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move:
30. That at page 13, after line 22, the following be inserted, namely:-
"Provided that if the accused is aggrieved by the information given by the psychiatric or clinical psychologist, as the case may be, to the Magistrate, he may prefer an appeal before the Medical Board which shall consist of- (a) head of psychiatry unit in the nearest government
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160
hospital; and (b) a faculty member in psychiatry in the nearest medical college."
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
Clause 32, as amended, was added to the Bill. (Followed by VKK/2T)
-YSR/VKK/2T/2.30
Clause 33 -- Amendment of Section 329
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 33, there are two Amendments (No.31
and 32) by the Minister.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendments (No.31 and
32):
31. That at page 14, after line 3, the following be inserted, namely: -
"Provided that if the accused is aggrieved by the information
given by the psychiatric or clinical psychologist, as the case may
be, to the Magistrate, he may prefer an appeal before the
Medical Board which shall consist of -
(a) head of psychiatry unit in the nearest government hospital;
and
(b) a faculty member in psychiatry in the nearest medical
college.";
32. That at page 14, line 11, for the words "Magistrate of Court", the
words "Magistrate or Court" be substituted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 33, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 34 added to the Bill.
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161
Clause 35 -- Amendment of Section 344
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 35, there is one Amendment
(No.33) by the Minister.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendment (No.33):
33. That at page 15, clause 35, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 35, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Clause 36 -- Insertion of new Section 344A
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 36, there is one Amendment
(No.34) by the Minister.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendment (No.34):
34. That at page 15, clause 36, be deleted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
Clause 36, as amended, was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 37, there is one Amendment
(No.41) by Smt. Brinda Karat. Are you moving?
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: I am not pressing.
Clause 37 was added to the Bill. Clause 1 -- Short Title and Commencement
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 1, there is one Amendment (No.2)
by the Minister.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendment (No.2):
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162
2. That at page 1, line 3, for the figure "2006", the figure "2008", be
substituted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill.
Enacting Formula MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In the Enacting Formula, there is one
Amendment (No.1) by the Minister.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendment (No.1):
1. That at page 1, line 1, for the word "Fifty-seventh", the word "Fifty-
ninth" be substituted.
The question was put and the motion was adopted. Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, the Bill, as amended, be passed.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
(Ends)
ALLOCATION OF TIME FOR DISPOSAL OF GOVERNMENT AND OTHER BUSINESS
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have to inform Members that the Business
Advisory Committee in its meeting held today, the 18th December, 2008,
has allotted time for the Government Legislative Business as follows: -
BUSINESS TIME ALLOTTED
1. Consideration and passing of the following Bills: -
(114) The Information Technology (Amendment)
Bill, 2006.
Two Hours
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163
(115) The National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008
as passed by Lok Sabha.
(116) The Unlawful Activities (Prevention)
Amendment Bill, 2008 as passed by Lok
Sabha.
Six Hours
(To be
discussed
together)
2. Consideration and return of the following Bills, after
they are passed by Lok Sabha: -
(20) Appropriation Bill relating to Demands for
Grants (General) (Second Batch) for the
year 2008-2009.
One Hour
(21) Appropriation Bill relating to Demands for
Grants (Railways) (Second Batch) for the
year 2008-2009.
Two Hours
The Committee also recommended that in view of heavy
Government Legislative Business, on Friday, the 19th December, 2008,
only introduction of Private Members Bills be taken up.
(Ends)
THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 AND THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): I move:
That the Bill to constitute an investigation agency at the national level to investigate and prosecute offences affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of India, security of State, friendly relations with foreign States and offences under Acts enacted to implement international treaties, agreements,
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conventions and resolutions of the United Nations, its agencies and other international organisations and for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.
And
I also move:
That the Bill further to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.
Sir, the National Investigation Agency Bill and the Unlawful
Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill have been adopted by the Lok
Sabha with some amendments and the Bills, as amended by the Lok
Sabha, are before this House. Sir, I may say, with deep sense of
gratitude, the Lok Sabha adopted these Bills unanimously. There was
one amendment which was voted out. Otherwise, the Bills were adopted
unanimously. The reason is, in our consultations with the major political
formations in Parliament, they have extended support to the idea and to
the content of the Bills.
(Contd. by MKS/2u)
MKS-AKG/2.35/2U
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Sir, I know that there are sections
which have reservations to one or two aspects of the Bill. These
reservations, I believe, are genuine reservations, genuine concerns. I
think, in course of time, when this law is applied and worked, we will
know whether the law is working well or whether these reservations
deserve to be addressed.
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165
The NIA Bill itself is a very simple Bill. It sets up the National
Investigating Agency. There are only eight acts in the Schedule in
respect of which the Agency is passed. The first information will be
registered in the police station and, then, forwarded to the State
Government; the State Government shall, forthwith, forward it to the
Central Government. The Central Government may, having regard to the
gravity of the offence and other relevant factors, direct that the case be
taken up with the NIRA. Otherwise, the case remains with the State
Agency. Even if the NIA takes up the case, there is a provision which
says: "If it is expedient to do so, it may associate the State Agency with
the investigation." There is also a provision which says: "If, after some
time, it feels that the case can be returned to the State for investigation,
the NIA may return the case to the State for investigation. There is a
provision for setting up of a Special Court. We have said that the Chief
Justice will nominate the Special Judge and the case shall be tried on a
day-to-day basis. The superannuation of the Judge shall not interrupt
the trial. In fact, he can be allowed to continue until the trial is
complete or until a specified date.
And with these, Sir, I think, it is felt necessary that there should
be an investigating agency, and I hope that the entire House will support
the establishment of NIA to investigate those offences. Appeals against
the orders of the Special Court will lie with the Division Bench of the
High Court and the appeals should be disposed of within three months.
Sir, the other Bill, the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment
Bill, 2008, is, if I may say, an attempt to balance the two conflicting
interests, apparently conflicting interests. The one interest is that the
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166
State must be armed with strong laws; the Investigating Agency must
have arms; the prosecution must be confident that if it marshals the
evidence and places it before the Court, it can secure a conviction of
the accused. That is one interest of the State, one interest of the
people.
The other interest is that human rights are fundamental and basic.
A fair procedure, and to be tried fairly, is part of personal liberty; but no
man's personal liberty can be taken away except according to the
procedure established by law. It is, simply, not a mechanical procedure,
but a substantive due process. Therefore, for balancing the interests by
strong anti-terror laws and having the need to protect the fundamental
human rights of persons, including the accused, we have drafted this Bill
and, I am sure, the Members who are going to speak will support it.
The Minister, Mr. Ashwani Kumar, will intervene, and the Minister, Mr.
Kapil Sibal will also intervene, if necessary. They will explain the
provisions of the Bill. But, broadly, what we are doing is imposing
restrictions on the path of grant of bail. Applying the provision of
drawing a rebuttable presumption in certain cases and requiring that
before prosecution is actually sanctioned, the executive Government
must take the recommendation of an independent authority who will
review their writs. So, we are strengthening the law, but, at the same
time, are also providing the safeguards.
While closing the debate, I shall reply, in greater detail, if
necessary. The provisions are self-explanatory, and, I am sure, all hon.
Members have read the Bill. I request that both Bills be passed as
adopted by the Lok Sabha. I will only conclude by saying that it is
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important that we show unity of purpose and unity in action. There is
no better way to demonstrate this unity than to unanimously vote in
favour of this Bill. (Contd. by TMV/2W)
-MKS-TMV-SCH/2W/2.40
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Please express your reservations;
please express your concerns. We will deal with those reservations and
concerns to the best of our ability. We will revisit the provisions, if
necessary, when we meet again in February. But, today, let the House
unanimously approve these two Bills as passed by the Lok Sabha. With
these words, I commend these Bills and ask the House to consider and
pass them. Thank you.
(Ends)
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (GUJARAT): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am
extremely grateful to you for permitting me to speak on these two Bills,
the first seeking to create a National Investigation Agency and the
second Bill amending further certain provisions of the Unlawful Activities
Act.
Sir, I must confess that I speak with a mixed feeling. The mixed
feeling is that my party and others who support us could derive, at
some stage, some sense of satisfaction that, at least, in some areas, if
not all, what we have been very strenuously saying for the last four
years and seven months that a strong legal mechanism also required to
investigate and punish terrorism. The reason and rationale that we have
set out for this, at least, a large part of what we have said, has now
been finally accepted by the Government. We might even get some
satisfaction from the fact that most of the arguments which were used
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168
to repeal the erstwhile anti-terror law, POTA, are now proving to be
spurious. We can also get satisfaction, as a country, from the fact there
is a near unanimity, both within the country and outside, as well as, in
this House and in the Lok Sabha, that these two legislations are
required. But we are, at the same time, concerned about the fact that
the measures which the Government have taken are still not strong
enough and still falls short in a large measure as a legal mechanism for
fighting terror. Sir, we are also concerned and, I am sure, every Indian
is concerned about the fact that what has brought this consensus is not
really the sound and strong logic that we have been giving to this
Government for more than four-and-a-half years now. Where reasoning
failed, where our rationale failed, I think, the ten evil men who entered
Mumbai on 26th November and shook the conscience of the whole
country succeeded in persuading the Indian society that India can no
longer afford to be a soft State and must finally start adopting hard
measures if it is really serious about combating and fighting terrorism.
Sir, I remember that there were different reasonings given why
India did not need a strong anti-terror law. When POTA was repealed --
I was looking back at the debates -- and even when it was first
introduced -- I was reading the debates -- the country was repeatedly
told by the opponents of a strong anti-terror law that a strong anti-terror
law is not per se against terrorism, it is against minorities. The country
was told that normal laws in India are enough to tackle terror and when
you have so many normal laws why you need a special law to tackle
terror. The third reasoning made out was that a special anti-terror law
per se would be opposed to the constitutionally guaranteed rights and,
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169
as a Republican Constitution, we can't afford to have a strong anti-terror
law.
(Contd. by 2X/VK)
VK/2X/2.45
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD): We were then told that there is a huge
scope for misuse and abuse of this law and since there is a scope for
misuse and abuse of this law, it is much better to go by the normal laws
and not have this law.
Lastly, Sir, an argument was repeatedly raised and I have seen a
large number of my friends raising this argument till the other day in
and out of this House that anti-terror laws don't prevent terrorism;
despite POTA, an attack could take place on Akshardham, an attack
could take place on Parliament. Since despite an anti-terror law, attacks
can still take place by terrorists, what is the point in having a special
anti-terror law? Sir, I repeat that the ten evil men who entered Mumbai
on 26th November have shaken all these fundamental assumptions on
the basis of which a strong anti-terror law was being opposed. Today,
with the kind of measures which have been announced, plus some
additional measures which have still not been taken by this Government
in this law, it appears that the Government now also believes that all
these assumptions, which were being given to oppose the strong anti-
terror law, were really spurious assumptions; they were fallacious
assumptions.
Sir, it is obvious to anybody who understands how a fight
against terror and insurgency can take place that a battle against
terrorism is not fought in the courts of law. Terrorism is not something
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170
that can only be fought through legislation. An anti-terror law is never a
substitute for a strong preventive intelligence. An anti-terror law is never
a substitute for a strong security action and a quick reaction commando
action against terrorism itself. To fight terror you need a large number of
steps. If it is cross border terrorism, if it is internationally engineered
terrorism, you, perhaps, need a global consensus. You may even take
foreign policy initiatives and work for a global consensus for sanctions
against countries and States which encourage terrorism. You require a
very strong intelligence network to fight terrorism, not only within your
own country, you require a strong intelligence network which infiltrates
into the enemy camp and pre-warns you of what is likely to happen.
Then you require that intelligence to be shared with those who require
that adequate intelligence information for the follow up action to be
taken which, at times, we find we are lacking in not taking that. What do
we do to our security responses? The law is not relevant. Our quick
security responses, our immediate security responses really determine it
because if we take action after hours, the terrorists have already won.
They have created a global impact; they have created a national impact.
Therefore, these are essentials which are required to fight terrorism. An
anti-terror law or a machinery to investigate terrorism, whether it is a
Central agency or a State agency, comes into the picture not as an
agency or a law which can prevent the act of terrorism, it is not an
agency which can really start distributing intelligence all over the country,
it is not an agency which will per se have a security force at its disposal
to prevent terrorism, that has to be done by the various agencies which
are earmarked for this purpose. The law and the agency comes into
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171
the picture, either just about when an act is being planned or when an
act has just been committed. Therefore, for the purposes of collection of
evidence, investigation of that crime, punishment of the criminal, you
need a law and you need an agency which is effective.
(Contd. by 2Y)
RG/2.50/2Y
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (contd.): You need a law which can adequately
collect that evidence, which can bring out that evidence and put it at the
disposal of the prosecuting agencies. Then, the conviction of those
involved in acts of terrorism becomes simpler and easier, so that your
conviction rate goes up. And, when your conviction rate in terrorist
offences goes up, then, it is a deterrent for those, who commit acts of
terrorism, not to indulge in those acts. The preventive impact of this law
is that it reflects the determination of the Government and the Indian
State in fighting terrorism, and the Indian State is then adequately
equipped in terms of law, to investigate the crime and expeditiously
punish those who are responsible for that crime. As I said, the battle
against terror is never fought exclusively in courts or through legislation.
You have to first equip the minds of the Government and the agencies
of the Government. It is in the hearts and minds of the people of India
that they must get ready, that we are a State, which is on the terrorist
radar, and, therefore, we must equip ourselves to fight terror. It is
through these Acts that the determination of the Indian State, in fighting
terror, is expressed. Unfortunately, 95 per cent of the tenure of this
Government is over, and that 95 per cent of the tenure of the
Government had been spent in convincing each one of us as to why a
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strong terror was not required, and different arguments, as I have
already explained, were advanced to establish that these were not
essentials which were required, and an effort was being made to dilute
the whole thing. I am afraid even though the Home Minister's Bill
indicates to the contrary what some of his colleagues have been saying,
it still indicates, and that is where we are concerned about, that the
battle against terrorism is to be diluted because they think that the battle
may prove to be politically costly, and, therefore, the vote bank signal,
which has to be given, is to the contrary...(Interruptions) Yet, I don't
think it is a matter where any one of us can really be amused because
the argument really is that when you have both Houses of Parliament
debating on this Bill, at the same time, you have a colleague of the
Home Minister, making a statement yesterday, which was flashed on all
front pages of the newspapers of our Western neighbour, and the blogs
coming out of Pakistan were full of it saying, "Look; we always said so."
Now that is the signal which I am referring to. And the Government,
spent 95 per cent of its recent tenure giving this signal rather than taking
substantive steps in fighting terrorism. Sir, even though we found some
aspects of this law to be inadequate, -- my party had announced very
categorically that we would support these Bills -- even though we said
that these were only half-a-step, we would support this half-a-step
against terror but would continue to campaign for the other half, the
seriousness of which the Government may not have realised. I am
conscious of the fact of what the newspaper reports that the Home
Minister couldn't really be blamed for it, if they are to be believed, it
indicates that he tried his best to get some more provisions, but some
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173
of his colleagues were, perhaps, concerned with the forthcoming
elections rather than the security considerations which are in-built in
those provisions.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: If Shri Arun Jaitley yields, I would like to say
that unfortunately, sometimes, our newspaper reports wrongly. The Bill,
that was brought by my Ministry, by me, to the Cabinet, is exactly the
same version that was introduced in Lok Sabha. Nothing was added;
nothing was deleted. The Cabinet unanimously approved the draft that I
brought.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Unfortunately, we have a Cabinet which has too
many spokesmen.
(Continued by 2Z)
TDB/2Z/2.55
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Each ally of the Government seems to
be taking credit for diluting this Bill. Sir, I am glad that the Home
Minister has clarified these because then, I would like to withdraw the
little compliment that I gave him, when I thought that, at least, he had
realised the seriousness and the gravity of the situation and tried to
bring in something which he honestly admits that he did not bring it. Sir,
in order, therefore, my primary task would be to convince him so that he
can convince his colleagues as to what further is required to be done,
as far as these laws are concerned.
Sir, in order to just simplify the issue, let us, for a moment, before
I go into the abstracts of what is required and what is already there, just
discuss and place before this House that what is the essential which is
required in the investigation of a terrorist offence? A terrorist offence per
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174
se is not like an ordinary crime where eyewitnesses would be easily
available. A terrorist offence per se will have conspiracies, at times,
which are hatched in foreign soils. You will have some people, the
fidayeen, the jehadi terrorists, the suicide squads who are not scared of
dying, who are not scared of the prohibitions contained in the law, who
are not even scared of the consequence of the law. Therefore, you will
always have a larger conspiracy behind the apparent terrorist acts. We
can analyse anyone of the terrorist cases which have recently taken
place. Let me just point out a glaring terrorist case, recently took place
in Mumbai on 26th of November. On the surface, ten terrorists came by
the sea route, attacked various vital places in Mumbai. Nine out of the
10 are killed, one is arrested. What happened in Mumbai is extremely
easy for the Indian police to prove. You have eyewitnesses; you will have
various other evidences; you will have reports of experts, and it won't be
a difficult task for an Indian investigative agency to prove it against those
ten. But, nine out of the ten are, unfortunately, not there. It is a rare
case that a terrorist has been caught alive. Ordinarily, they are not
caught alive. But, the real conspiracy is not merely those ten. The real
conspiracy in this case is, and that is where the law is lacking, who
were the people who trained these ten across the border? There were
obviously some training camps where for a year or a year-and-a-half,
these people were given extensive training; funds were made available to
them; their families were assured that monies would be given to their
families, in case anything happened to them; weapons and equipment
were supplied to them; RDX was supplied to them. It is possible that
such an operation could not have been carried without the support of
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175
the official agencies. Who were these people who organised the entire
conspiracy across the border? Pakistan is living in denial. Their High
Commissioner made a statement yesterday, their Foreign Minister made
a statement yesterday that Masood Azhar is not in Pakistan, conflicting
what had been said earlier. Pakistan as a State which is living in denial
will continue to deny it. Pakistan does not seem to be in a mood to
render cooperation. Therefore, the responsibility is ours, the onus is on
us to prove the Pakistan link and the Karachi limb of this conspiracy.
Now, the terrorist who has been caught alive is speaking. His
statements are being published, and his statements are being shared
with the entire world. But, under this law, with adequate safeguards, and
I underline and re-emphasise the word 'adequate safeguards', if Kasab's
statements to the investigating agencies are not evidence, then, we may
well be reading just a news in a newspaper which is not evidence in a
court of law.
(Contd. by 3a-kgg)
kgg/3a/3.00
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (contd.): And Pakistan would then turn around and
say, "What Kasab is saying is not evidence under your own law, in your
own country, how do you want the international forum make it as
evidence against me?" Let us move a little backwards. One of the most
glaring cases in India is of the late Shri Rajiv Gandhi who was
assassinated. When Shri Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated, TADA was in
force. Though eventually the Supreme Court did not convict them under
TADA because of some interpretation of the definition of TADA, but the
Supreme Court still applied the rules of evidence of TADA. The lady with
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176
a human bomb killed Shri Rajiv Gandhi on the spot. The actual killer
died on the spot. 50,000 people witnessed that killing. Yet, when the
matter came to court, our SIT went to the first conspirator, those who
supplied the vehicles, those who supplied the arms, those who supplied
the shelter, those who harboured them, and those who planned the
conspiracy; our SIT got all of them. Our SIT did a remarkable job in
reconstructing the whole crime. And, finally, just as we do not have any
eye witnesses of what happened in Karachi or the terrorist training
camps, the SIT did not have any eye witnesses of what the conspirators
were doing behind the closed doors. Conspiracies are hatched in
darkness. They are behind the closed doors, they do not leave eye
witnesses behind.
So, it is only when the first conspirator sang, the second
conspirator spoke; their evidence under TADA became admissible
evidence and the conviction of the other accused in the Rajiv Gandhi
assassination case took place only because of the admissibility of those
confessions. Take those confessions out, and this country would have
been a laughing stock where a former Prime Minister is assassinated in
front of 50,000 people and you would not have a conviction in the case!
The actual assassins had died on the spot.
Take the Parliament attack case. The five actual persons who
attacked the Indian Parliament died within this premises itself. It is the
conspirators who were arrested. The most material evidence against the
conspirators is those who spoke--the first and the second men who
were arrested. This is not only in this case, I will come to it a little later;
what is it which requires a strong anti-terror law? I always tell my friends
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
177
in the Government that when India is on the terrorist radar, you do not
have to be apologetic about India having a strong anti-terror law. We are
supporting this Government on the anti-terror law. But the difference
between the ruling benches and the opposition this time is, the
opposition is supporting this Bill as a national necessity and the ruling
party is still embarrassed and is apologetic about having brought this
Bill! That is the difference. It is a strange dichotomy in the Indian
democracy which has taken place. We are more enthusiastic about what
the Government is bringing, this type of Bill! Now, you require an anti-
terror law, and the Government had repealed the POTA. But, then their
security experts told them, "Why are you making India so vulnerable?"
Sir, I did an exercise as to what was there in POTA. Of course, I
am conscious of the fact that such a remedy is not available; but, if for
hijacking or copying an Intellectual Property, an action was available; I
think, the NDA had a strong case against the UPA. We drafted a law,
they said, "It is a horrible law and we will repeal it', then took a scissor
and started a cut-and-paste exercise by culling out provision by
provision from POTA, and word by word, full stop by full stop; and if we
had left the grammatical mistake somewhere, along with that
grammatical mistake they started incorporating it in the Unlawful
Activities Prevention Act. I just started comparing the features; on the
language, the verbatim language is the same. The law must define
terrorism; they had repealed POTA which defined terrorism; so, they
picked up that definition and put it in the Unlawful Activities Prevention
Act.
(Contd. by kls/3b)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
178
KLS/3b-3.05
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD): POTA was criticised because it had an
extraterritorial application. Obviously it is needed because if one limb of
the conspiracy takes place in Pakistan, the anti-terror law will have its
extraterritorial application. So you brought it back by 2005 amendment.
The quantum of punishment required under POTA, you picked it up and
brought it back. Now, besides an act of terrorism we said whoever
abates terrorism, whoever incites terrorism will also be an offence,
though a lesser offence, they picked up the language, pasted it in
another law; harbouring terrorists, they picked up and pasted in another
law; membership of a terrorist organisation, again picked up from POTA
verbatim and put in another law. Confiscation of proceeds of terrorism-
now, this was based on a salutary principle that no person can benefit
from profits of crime. You commit a crime and out of the profits of that
crime you buy a house or you open a bank account where you keep
money, so, that properties will be confiscated if they are out of terrorist
funds or those will be confiscated, they said it is a very good concept
let us put it back. If you threaten witnesses in a terrorism case, that
also is an offence -- verbatim taken and put in the Act. Declaration of
an organisation as a terrorist organisation -- picked up the provisions
verbatim and put them in the other Act; special laws -- picked up the
Sections and placed them in another Act. And then let me compliment
-- the Home Minister is not here, Mr. Sibal is here and Mr. Sibal's
favourite argument is that my law is better than your law, so the remand
period being provided ....
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Wait till my argument.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
179
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Mr. Sibal's argument, which I have been
answering for the last four-and-a-half year, is that special law is not
required. Mr. Sibal is a man of principles. You see, he opposes it on
republican principles, brings this law on the principles of preserving
national sovereignty. In any case, he stands by those principles and he
will justify his principles at all stages ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Republicans are not against national sovereignty.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: I think in that event with all these provisions had
to be brought back...(Interruptions)... If all these provisions had to be
brought back, there was no need why India should be made so
vulnerable for four years and seven months. ...(Interruptions)... For four
years and seven months you made this country vulnerable and then you
decided to bring the same law back. ....(Interruptions)... Then, Sir, the
said, well, there is a remand period mentioned in the old law, we will
have a discretion for larger remand period. Well enough, because if the
investigation does not conclude in 90 days, you may require 180 days
and therefore, you may require to get evidences internationally, you may
have to send letter rogatories across the globe to get evidences, you
may have to get people extradited other countries, therefore, longer
period of investigation will be required Therefore, they put a provision of
giving some element of flexibility, yes, longer remand is required. It is a
correct provision in law, I have no difficulty with that. On dozens of
occasions we have been told in this House that you turned the law
upside down by shifting the onus of proof. There are no presumptions,
which are available. Now the presumptions available in POTA have been
exactly brought back. And what are those presumptions? The Evidence
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180
Act has those presumptions. There is a chapter on presumptions in the
Evidence Law that if a weapon is found in your possession, the
presumption is there unless you disprove the fact it is not yours. The
fingerprints found in a vehicle, on the steering wheel of a vehicle, which
is used for terrorist offence, the presumption is you have used that
vehicle, the onus is on you that you have not used that vehicle. Section
number has been altered, Sir, that presumption now is back.
Confiscation of passport, setting of review committees, in fact, POTA
had a very interesting safeguard with regard to intercepts.
(Contd by 3c/SSS)
SSS/3C/3.10
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Obviously, a large part of criminal law
investigation these days are done on the strength of taking telephonic
conversation and intercepts. Now, doubt arose whether these are
admissible evidence. But POTA provided a safeguard. The safeguard
under POTA was, if a police officer wants to intercept, then, from the
competent authority he must take sanction and every fortnight the
Review Committee headed by a judge will certainly get the total record
of people whose intercepts have been made and these intercepts will be
admissible evidence in a court. You went a step a further. You said no
sanctions are required. The intercepts from wherever you get are
admissible evidence. Well, the police was facing a difficulty. If you want
to go that far I have no difficulty, we will support you even on that. But
don't be apologetic on the fact that India didn't need a strong anti-terror
law. It is an admission of the fact that you made this country vulnerable
for four years and seven months and now you come back to say, 'well,
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181
India does need a special law. You cannot fight terror with ordinary
laws.' Sir, there were two vital provisions left out and the two vital
provisions are one with regard to special bail provisions and the second
with regard to confessions. Sir, as far as bail provisions were
concerned, under your normal criminal law you have the bailable
offences, the non-bailable offences where the discretion is with the
court. There are special laws in which the discretion of the court in
granting bail is further reduced. The court can't grant bail till a public
prosecutor has been noticed and if the court comes to an opinion at the
stage of bail, that prima facie the case is true or prima facie the case is
not false, just a prima facie view, the court will not grant bail. Now, we
had been repeatedly saying you require a stronger provision because
once a terrorist gets bail and if he is an international Jihadi, after getting
bail he is not going to come back and say, 'well, I am coming back for
the purposes of getting executed in India.' So, he is certainly going to
jump bail. Therefore, why do you not have special provisions with
regard to bail? Now, the present law has brought that provision back.
But, then, the UPA is not NDA, so you have to be different. The earlier
law said prima facie the case against him is not true. The judge will not
grant bail. You said he would not grant bail if he were proved that
prima facie the case against him is true. So, one had a direct mention
and the other alternative as double negatives. The two mean exactly the
same. You said, 'well, we have a different bail provision now and you
brought back and there is nothing wrong in this bail provision. Sir, I
have just prepared a list. TADA had this bail provision. POTA had this.
But, besides an anti terrorism law there are at least 12 laws in India
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182
which have the same bail provisions. The MACOCA has the same bail
provision, the Andhra Pradesh and the Karnataka Organised Crime Laws
have the same provision but the Government said we are against these
organised crime laws so we are not allowing some BJP ruled
Governments to have those laws. But, your Narcotics Act has the
identical bail provision. Not only the Narcotics Act, I have copies, Sir,
you have similar bail provisions besides the Narcotics, Drugs and
Psychotropic Substances Act, Scheduled castes and Scheduled Tribes
Prevention of Atrocities Act, Anti Hijacking Act, Prevention of Damage to
Public Property Act, Prevention of Money Laundering Act and, then,
even Suppression of Unlawful Acts against Safety of Maritime
Navigations. You have the same bail provisions which are the
extraordinary hard bail provisions, Suppression of Unlawful Acts against
Safety of Civil Aviation, Terrorist Affected Areas Special Courts Act and,
finally, even the Wild Life Protection Act.
(Contd. by NBR/3D)
-SSS/NBR-MP/3D/3.15.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): So, those who commit these offences
against the wildlife would not get bail. But, those who committed these
crimes against humanity, terrorist offences, were entitled, under this
Government, for four-years-and-seven-months, to a lighter bail
provisions. They say, 'No. We would not have it.' Finally, I think,
where all our logic and rationality failed, you have those ten evil men
who came on 26/11 convincing the whole country and then pressurising
this Government to, reluctantly, come up and strengthen the bail
provisions.
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183
Sir, even confessions, on the face of it, looks a little alarmist. I
concede to this that, ordinarily, in a law, confession to a police officer is
not admissible evidence. It should not be. That is the normal law. In
all our laws this should be the general principle. But, we, in India, have
exceptions. We, in India, even today, have exceptions. Sir, TADA and
POTA were exceptions. The MCOCA is an exception. The Karnataka
Organised Crime Law is an exception. The Andhra Organised Crime
Law is an exception. The Narcotics Law is an exception. You make a
statement to an officer investigating a narcotics offence, your statement
is admissible evidence. You make a statement to a customs officer, it is
admissible evidence. You have in foreign jurisdictions in liberal
democracies these statements become admissible evidence, provided
Judge is satisfied with regard to the voluntariness of the nature of
confession. And, the Supreme Court said -- it is extremely important.
If, obviously, the confession is involuntary or appears to be involuntary, it
should be disregarded. But, they say, how do you then ensure that
there is no misuse? Sir, four guidelines were suggested. The first one
is, the officer recording the confession must be a Superintendent of
Police or above. The second one is, it must preferably be video
recorded or audio recorded. The third one is, within 24 hours or 48
hours, as the Government decides, the accused must go before a judge
after making the confession. The Judge will ask him if it is voluntary. If
he says that it is involuntarily, he will be examined medically. All these
factors will be considered in order to determine the voluntary nature of
that confession. Now, on the one hand, you have an extraordinary
crime and that extraordinary crime is a crime against the State, a crime
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184
planned in secrecy where there will never be an eye witness. I repeat,
those who conspired in secret meetings to assassinate Late Shri Rajiv
Gandhi, no investigation could ever produce eye witness of that. One of
them had to speak. And, if his statement was not evidence, then, there
would be no evidence. If Kasab's statement is not evidence, then it is
extremely difficult for India to prove what happened in Karachi or the
Pakistan's limb in this conspiracy. When you have gone so far, why do
you stop half way? When you want to create a National Investigation
Agency, why don't you give teeth that it needs in order to investigate a
crime and produce him before the world and the Indian courts evidence
required in relation to these crimes? Sir, if these essentials are not
there, then, I am afraid, even though, we move half a step further, there
will be cases and cases where we still fall short. There are enough
people waiting really to find holes in the Indian case. I am not referring
this to as a police case. At times, we are in the habit of discussing,
well so many attacks took place when you were in power, or, I was in
power or somebody else was in power. This is the Indian case. There
are enough people waiting. You have articles and books written which
says that attack on Parliament was organised by the RAW and the IB.
You have Indians authoring such books. Articles in newspapers suggest
this. We may all be magnanimous and willing to pass out yesterday's
statement of Mr. Antulay merely as an irresponsible act or something
where he, perhaps, did not adequately express himself.
(CONTD. BY USY "3E")
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
185
-NBR-USY/3E/3.20
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): But, then, his statement is a huge fuel
for the country which has been extending facilities to the terrorists in
action against India. Read the blogs in Pakistan today. (Interruptions)
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, my learned friend cannot mention the name of
a person who is not here. (Interruptions) He is not here. (Interruptions)
Moreover, he has already denied it on the floor of the House.
(Interruptions)
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: But all the newspapers carry this news item
today. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: According to him, he has denied it.
(Interruptions)
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Let us talk something substantive. (Interruptions)
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I think, Mr. Sibal is right. I really should not
have named him. The Government itself should have named him today
morning. But this is something that has embarrassed this country. This
has weakened our case internationally. This is something that defies the
collective responsibility of the Cabinet; something that provides
ammunition to our enemies and opponents. And, therefore, I should not
name him, the substance should be the Government itself should have
come up and shrugged off its relationship with a person who makes this
kind of a statement. (Interruptions)
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: The Congress Spokesman said that it was his
personal view, it was not the Congress Party's view. But he has not
denied it. (Interruptions)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
186
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, therefore, today, on a strong anti-terror law,
where are we? The whole country was misled that we did not need a
law. The law was repealed. Then, sentence after sentence, clause after
clause of that law was brought back. But, then, you also wanted to
have that one upmanship and say, "Well, we are different because this
one provision was not there. And, this one provision is a significant
provision." Unless that provision is there with safeguards, in case after
case, you will be weakening India's case. And, I reiterate and say if that
provision had not been there in the TADA, the accused in Rajiv Gandhi's
case would have benefited. If it had not been in the POTA, the accused
in the Parliament case would have benefited. Fortunately, Mumbai has
the MCOCA which has that provision. But for some reasons, I am told,
the MCOCA has still not been pressed into action in the 26/11 case.
Unless that statement is a statement under the MCOCA, which becomes
evidence, the Karachi and the Pakistan limb of the conspiracy may be
difficult to establish in law. Therefore, we require to do that. So, please
re-consider, when you have travelled all this distance and wisdom has
dawned on you in the last five months of your Government, and please
don't make it an incomplete statement. The Home Minister was candid
enough to say that he had consultations with the Opposition. We made
it very clear to him that we will, come what may, support it even if it is
half-a-step. We have our own nationalist credentials, therefore, we don't
want to stop even half-a-step. But, then, please make India a strong
State. This law per se will not abolish terrorism. Merely because we
have an Indian Penal Code, crime has not ended; because we have
section 302 that provides for death penalty or life penalty murders have
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
187
not stopped. Murders are still taking place, but the law provides a
deterrent in a civilized society. It provides an expeditious methodology
of investigation and punishment. Therefore, please give this law more
teeth than what exist today.
Sir, the second part of the amendment in the second Bill is the
setting up of a National Investigation Agency. And, I have said, as far
as the first law is concerned, we have supported it because it is half-a-
step. We have reservations about what has not been done and we will
continue to campaign for that. But as far as the National Investigation
Agency is concerned, I have no hesitation in saying that we fully support
the proposal as has been mooted by the Government. And, this is for
two good reasons. First, some doubts are, at times, raised whether the
Central Government possesses the power to take over what appears to
be a power within the State jurisdiction. The constitutional entries make
it very clear that the defence of India, in List 1, entry 1, is the exclusive
primary domain of the Central Government; and, it is the public order,
which includes the law and order, which is in the domain of the State
Government.
(Contd. by 3f -- VP)
VP/3.25/3F
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Where does terrorism fit in? Terrorism
is not merely law and order. Terrorism is something which attacks the
sovereignty of India and it attacks the unity of India. Therefore, if there
is cross border terrorism of this kind, it has something directly to do
with the defence of India. Therefore, even in the Supreme Court, when
TADA was first enacted and POTA was first enacted, an objection was
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188
taken with regard to the legislative competence of the Centre to enact
an anti-terror law on the ground that law and order is a State subject.
But the Supreme Court also said that there is no entry called terrorism
in the Constitution. Therefore, this could, perhaps, come within the
defence of India and not public order. If it doesn't fall in either, then, it
comes within the residuary entry, List I, Entry 97. Therefore, this is,
exclusively, within the central domain. Protecting the sovereignty of
India is the responsibility of the Central Government. Therefore, against
terrorism, if a law is brought, it is within the Central domain. If an
agency is created to investigate that offence, then, obviously, those who
have the competence to enact a law also have the competence to
create an agency of that kind.
(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) IN THE CHAIR)
Therefore, we fully support the Government's proposal that the
Central Government is fully competent to enact this law. Even
otherwise, Sir, an offence of terrorism in some cases may not
adequately be investigated by State police. There may be offences
which have inter-State ramifications. You may require sharing of
intelligence between several States. You may require coordination of
intelligence of all those States. You may have different limbs of the
conspiracy in different States. You may even have, -- as this law has
extra-territorial application; some parts of the conspiracy taking place
outside India -- some intelligence required from outside India. Now,
there may be offences where all this is not present and the Central
agency itself may feel the State police can do it. But in extraordinary
cases like the one in Mumbai, or, the Parliament attack, these may be
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
189
cases, where State police itself may be inadequate to investigate the
offence. And, by the very nature of the offence, a Central agency would
be more competent in order to investigate that offence. Therefore, we
fully support the proposal of the Central Government as far as creation
of a central agency is concerned with a discretion that some
extraordinary offences of this kind, when they take place, the central
agency itself will investigate those offences.
Finally, Sir, let us realise one thing. While we are debating this law,
this country has paid a huge cost of terrorism. We have lost individuals,
we have lost human lives, and we have lost lives of security personnel.
A large part of our national resource gets spent on it. Where there is
terrorism, investment is not forthcoming. The economic resources are
diverted to fight terrorism. You may even have a diversion as far as
your defence preparedness is concerned, where instead of looking at
your borders, you are looking at your interiors where terrorist activities
are taking place. Anti-insurgency steps, anti-terror steps, at times, are
strong. Mr. Chidambaram was right when he says that we have to do a
balancing act between human rights and fighting terror. Therefore, there
may be some erosion, at some stage, of individual rights. Harsh
combing operations, at times, lead to alienation of local population.
These are all costs we have to pay because of fighting terrorism.
Therefore, when this is the kind of cost this country has to pay, I think,
we need not be -- while we should be concerned about human rights
and balance them in our fight against terror -- apologetic in a state
whose sovereignty is threatened in taking strong anti-terror steps. This
Government has decided that they have a change of heart. Though what
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190
they failed to do for four years and seven months, those ten men who
came from across the borders have persuaded them in doing so, and
they have brought this law. But, then, let it be an adequate exercise. It
can't be an incomplete exercise. As I said, we, on this side, support
these measures as one of national necessity and the Government should
not be apologetic about having brought in any of these measures. Thank
you very much, Sir. (Ends)
(Continued by PB/3G)
PB/3G/3.30
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (RAJASTHAN): Mr. Vice-Chairman,
Sir, I heard my friend, Mr. Jaitley, with rapt attention. He gave the
Home Minister a compliment which is obviously a compliment based on
fiction because he reacted to a newspaper report, and obviously, Mr.
Jaitley can't be privy to Cabinet proceedings. So since there is no basis
as to what happened and Mr. Chidambaram clarified that the
compliment itself was based on fiction, therefore, the withdrawal was
also fictional. But I must actually partly withdraw the compliment as I
was about to give to the Opposition because I was misled into thinking
that this is, in fact, a near-contentious debate and that's the good thing
about it. It is supposed to be a non-contentious debate. They are
supposed to support us but my friend could not repeatedly resist the
temptation of being self-congratulatory. He could not repeatedly resist
the temptation of saying 'we told you so.' As I will presently show, his
self-congratulatory approach is not fully justified although the support
which his party gives us, we welcome it in the national interest.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
191
But before we go further, let me deal with a preliminary aspect
about the statement of a learned Member of Parliament, a Minister
yesterday. I think my friend is being less than fully fair. At five o'clock,
minutes after the statement was made, the Congress Party, officially in
its Press briefings in Parliament House, categorically and specifically
repudiated and rejected the statement and said, 'we neither support nor
accept.' Having said that, that was repeated the whole evening
yesterday. Today, I am told the learned Minister has himself retracted
and modified or clarified it; and I fail to understand when it's not a
Government of India's statement, when it's not a Congress statement,
when it's not a UPA statement, I ask myself how Pakistan or any other
country in the world can rely on it and say, 'it's the Government of India
stand, we told you so.' ...(Interruptions)
SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He is a Minister.
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: Let me complete. He is a Minister
but the Government of India or the ruling coalition or the Party has said,
'we don't accept that statement.' Well I want to ask you my friend,
when you, one day later ... ...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He cannot give that. ...(Interruptions)... In
what capacity, ... ...(Interruptions)...
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: After our contemporaneous clarification
... (Interruptions)...
SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He should resign from the Cabinet and
then give that statement.
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: Please let me speak.
...(Interruptions)... Mr. Agarwal, when one day later, after my
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
192
contemporaneous clarification and after his own clarification, if you raise
it again and again, are you -- ask yourself -- not politicising the issue for
the whole world and are you not making it a political issue? The issue
should rest now in view of the clear clarification then.
But, Sir, may I come back to the main business. This is not the
main business. The main business is that this Government, this House
means business. It means the business of sending a clear signal across
the world that the country is united, that it is doing a holistic approach,
administrative, legal, factual, logistic to strengthen the whole country in
the war against terrorism. We are sending a clear signal that we will
show our resolve to terrorise the terrorist but in accordance with law,
and I must congratulate the Government for its very swift response but
also for its measured response. I think it is important not to have an
element of overkill; it is important to focus the remedy to the situation
which arises. The remedy cannot and should not be worse than the
disease. We must also keep in mind that laws are not the only answer.
A law and a legal framework is only part of a much larger holistic
framework and you are seeing different elements of that framework
whether it is coercive diplomacy, globally, whether it is basic police
reforms which are the need of the hour and which are, I am sure, in the
pipeline ... (Contd. by 3h/MKS)
MKS-HMS/3.35/3H
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (COTND.): ....whether it is logistic
upgradation and reinforcement, and it is that holistic approach which
alone will win us or get us ahead in the war on terror.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
193
What is also very happy to note is that during the debate held just
two or three days ago, or last week, on the Mumbai incident, several
issues were raised and discussed, and many of them find a concrete
manifestation in the two Bills that are placed before the House. There is
the concrete manifestation of centralised approach, the NIA, the Special
Courts. These are all discussed and mentioned in the several speeches
made by Members and the discussions that we had a few days ago.
As regards fast track approach, appeal provision and other issues, I will
come to them, as far as nitty-gritty is concerned, shortly. But the
important thing is that these two Bills, both individually and together,
represent a seamless web, an indivisible and comprehensive seamless
web, which tries to deal with every facet and every aspect of terror,
from training to funding, to supplying, and, therefore, it does something
which is very important. It deals with the front visible face of terror; it
deals with the middle end of terror, and it seeks to deal with the back
end of terror. It also seeks to address, as I will, presently, show, every
aspect of preventive facet of dealing with terrorism; aspects of detection,
apprehension and arrest, search and seizure of the questioning process
of the prosecution and of the conviction and punishment, because
without all this, you cannot deal with terror.
Let me, first of all, as I said, disabuse my friend about the violation
of his intellectual property rights or the alleged plagiarism which he
reminded this House of; we are one on having a strong legal framework.
But let me assure you that we are the ones who have brought in TADA;
there can be no question of plagiarisation. I will start blaming you for
POTA, the plagiarisation from TADA if you blame me. We learnt certain
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
194
lessons from TADA, and we, therefore, acted. But, now, let me just
give you a few specific cases to show you why, far from their being a 99
per cent similarity, there is a huge, significant set of differences. First of
all, I am happy to note that this is something that the Leader of the
Opposition talked about several times; about having a Central Federal
Agency. But, whatever the reasons are, he was unable to bring in a Bill;
he was unable to implement. We are proud to actually have
implemented the promise of having a Federal Agency. And, obviously,
the Federal Agency is the implementing arm of a better legal framework.
So, obviously, what you could not do with POTA, you now have a
Federal Agency doing that. That, obviously, is a unique and different
feature.
The second one is about the definition of 'terrorism'. Let me
remind this House and my friend that the definition of 'terrorism' in
POTA was fairly large, but the definition of 'terrorism' which we
incorporated in the earlier version, of 2004, of the Unlawful Activities
(Prevention) Act, is, in fact, much larger in the Bill which you have today
before the House. It deals, specifically, with radioactive and nuclear
issues. It deals, specifically, with hostage situations, with very wide
language--I am not taking our time by taking you to the language part.
It deals, very directly, with property, pressures on public functionaries
and disruptions of supplies; all are relating it to terrorism; all of which
were absent in POTA; all of which were not there in POTA. So, give us
some credit where it is due, Mr. Jaitley.
Then, again, the punishment for dealing with radioactive
substances is being considerably enhanced by having a new specific
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provision. There is a new specific provision, not found earlier, section
16: "A separate significant, comprehensive provision, dealing with raising
of funds for terrorist acts." I know that there is a funding issue and a
provision in POTA. But POTA had 'funding' dealt with in the definition
of 'a terrorist offence' and funding dealt with there was much narrower.
(Contd. by TMV/3J)
-MKS-TMV-3J/3.40
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (CONTD.): You now have a separate,
independent, much larger and much more comprehensive provision
dealing with all aspects of funding very wide in the new Bill, not found in
POTA. Two very important, extremely comprehensive, all encompassing
provisions about training camps and about recruitment of terrorists,
clauses 18A and 18B, are completely new, not found in POTA. Then
come issues like bail. For example, my friend, in a sense, just
caricatured the bail provision by telling you that the bail provision in
POTA and the bail provision here are virtually identical and we have
merely incarnated the language with slight differences. I am afraid that it
is not so. You have to see the provisions. The provision for bail in
POTA puts an extremely heavy, in fact, an impossible possibility of
getting bail. We have, in fact, put that language in this new Bill. But
that is for aliens, which says that you shall not get bail except in very
exceptional circumstances. But that is only for non-Indian citizens, for
foreigners. For Indians, the POTA provision says that the judge shall not
grant bail unless the court is satisfied that there are grounds for
believing that he is not guilty of committing an offence. For a judge,
with merely an FRI and a charge-sheet, to return a finding that the
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196
person is nor guilty would be virtually impossible. The new provision in
the current Bill before you has a provision which, I think, harmoniously
marries the demands of security and safety with a fair emphasis on the
possibility of getting the bail and on human rights aspects. The current
provision, and I remind you, is not identical and, therefore, uses the very
significant word "prima facie", which is absent in the POTA, and says
"reasonable grounds for believing that the accusation is prima facie
true". That is a very different legal test. It is a very different legal test
which lawyers know and lawyers should know. It is a very different legal
test as judges know and as also courts administering justice.
Then again, on the issue, of course, of confession, we are again
different from POTA because we have not included "an admissible
confession" and let me deal with that issue because my friend has said--
he has a fair point--why you should not render confessions admissible.
Well, you could debate this point. But kindly consider this. You have to
measure the cost-benefit aspects of any provision. We believe that,
perhaps, the costs of rendering every confession to every police officer,
even though above a certain rank, admissible far outweighs the benefit.
You might need it and it might work in a few cases, but its abuse is so
much as to justify not having it. Now, the Rajiv Gandhi case is not a
good example. The Rajiv Gandhi case is not an example for the simple
reason that there the conviction, as my friend has himself rightly noted,
was upheld under the normal law of 302, murder charge. TADA was
not the basis of that conviction. Just three or four weeks ago, we had
no less than the Chief Justice of India--of course, he was speaking extra
judicially, not on the Bench--categorically saying that strict or blanket
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admissibility of confessions raised several issues of constitutionality,
doubts and questions. In the Kartar Singh case under TADA, the
Supreme Court judgement which upheld the admissibility of confession.
That case has been specifically doubted by the Supreme Court and I
have no doubt, at least, there is every possibility that in the near future
the Kartar Singh case will be reconsidered and might well be set aside
or reviewed or modified. The Administrative Reforms Commission has
raised a very valid point. It is not that we are per se against
admissibility of confessions for all times. But given the present state of
our police system, the present state of training, motivation, facilities and
the police system, with police reforms still a long way to go, go long
afar, whether or not admissibility of confession should await basic police
reforms.
(Contd. by 3K/VK)
VK/3K/3.45
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (CONTD): We think it should. We
think that we can reconsider this issue once we have had some reform.
Let me assure my friend in this House that we are not toothless, we are
not impotent in the first phase of terrorist attacks as far as admissibility
is concerned. Not at all. We have powers. We have the law. My friend
knows better than anybody else, we have Section 164. Under Section
164, if you take the terrorist; if he is interested in giving the example of
only Kasab, let us take only Kasab's example, Kasab can be taken to
the nearest magistrate, one kilometre away from the jail -- my friend
knows that the new Bill will have special courts -- the magistrate can
record his confession under Section 164 which is the ordinary law of the
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198
land. The confession is fully admissible. What is the problem? Please
do not conjure up a fear psychosis that the country is without any law; it
is a toothless tiger; it is a paper tiger; it is without any power or it is
impotent. The impotence may be there in our thought processes, it is
not there in the law. If, for the time being, we are not able to improve
our police systems, then I think this merits the fair demand of a certain
emphasis on human rights along with a fair chance of conviction with
confessions or without confessions, as you may chose.
So far as the federal agency aspect is concerned, as I said, we
are very proud that we did not talk about it, we actually did it. The
previous Government talked a lot about it, but could not do it. On the
federal agency, I entirely agree with my friend and to support his
argument let me add two or three more provisions. Terror, of course, is
an all India phenomenon. Terror, of course, is supportable under Entry
1, List 1, Defence of India. This is after all an indirect war on India. But
there are other entries. As I said in the debate last week, the
Committee on Law and Justice has specially pointed out in its report
submitted to Parliament that investigation and intelligence is specifically
covered under Entry 8, List 1, under which we chose to only create a
more truncated body, the CBI. But the power is much wider. I also
said in the debate that the Criminal Procedure Code and administration
of the Criminal Procedure Code would also cover this aspect. So to all
the other parties, there are, obviously, other parties here, not
necessarily the BJP, which thinks that it is an assault on our federal
structure, which thinks it is a dilution of our federal structure, they
should be assured that this is not a case of 356 gone a muck. It is not
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199
a case of a lawless exercise of some kind of invasion of State rights.
This is a limited, focused, regulated action on terrorism, fully sanctified
and supported by the entries of the Seventh Schedule of the
Constitution and in any case, I very much doubt, with the great support
of civil society, if any court of law in this country, would want to strike it
down as being ultra vires or beyond constitutional competence. There
are very important provisions here about special courts, a point that I
touched upon in the debate. The judgement of the Supreme Court
says, "You can have special courts, provided you give a judicial
element". There is a whole Chapter in this new Bill, which deals
comprehensively with special courts, which will also be a kind of a fast
track court for terrorism, which is the vital need of the hour. A special
court does not mean that the executive chooses a special judge. A
special court and a special judge are different. This is the basic
principle of the Supreme Court judgement when, you remember, Mrs.
Indira Gandhi was sought to be tried under the special court, set up
then. That principle is that so long as you have a consultative process
with the judiciary in setting up special courts and you have no power to
choose the judge who mans them, then special courts are valid. They
do a good job. They are faster. I think they are absolutely vital in this
case. There are, of course, special provisions in this Bill, as far as I
recollect, which were not there in POTA, which put some much more
draconian and stringent power or regulatory framework against aliens,
non-Indian citizens.
(Contd. by 3L)
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200
RG/3.50/3L
DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (contd.): As I said last time, the United
States, after 9/11, passed a series of laws, which we all applauded, and
we said, "This is the way to deal with terror." But we forgot that all the
stringent laws of the U.S., which enhanced the stringency of the laws
about arrests, about detention, were all for aliens, not for domestic U.S.
citizens. But, here, in India, we have actually created a very stringent
provision about aliens who come into this country. They cannot, by a
specific provision, be granted bail at all unless the phrase used is
'exceptional circumstances'. It is a different larger issue which need not
be detaining this House, whether under our more comprehensive
constitutional scheme, such a special provision for aliens or non-Indian
citizens will be upheld by the Courts because both articles 14 and 21 of
our Constitution which talks of 'Right to life and liberty', apply to Indian
citizens and non-Indian citizens alike, something far wider than the
U.S.A., which is why the U.S. could have something like Grantham obey
but not articles 14 and 21 of our Constitution. But that is a different
issue. The period of 90 days is liable to be extended to 180 days. The
basic spirit and approach of this new Bill is that the policemen, the NSG
Commandos, and the Forces, who fight terror, on our behalf, are not
only strengthened directly but they also have the spirit, the feeling and
motivation in their minds that whatever they are doing is not futile, that
when they do something, they arrest somebody and when they try
somebody, all their efforts will not go in vain, or, the person will not
escape scot-free. That is the purpose of all these provisions.
Therefore, obviously, because terrorists inspire fear, they generate a
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201
certain feeling of fear psychosis, investigation is slower; witnesses are
more difficult to find, and, therefore, the extendability of 180 days in a
particular case, if the judge so wants, from the normal 60 or 90 days, is
a welcome additional step.
Sir, ultimately, this whole issue cannot be really effectively dealt
with, without strengthening the backbone of the system, and the
backbone of the system is and will always remain the beat constables,
the ordinary police forces. The entirety of the huge police reforms,
which we know every detail about, -- the police reforms as per the
Police Commission or as per the Administrative Reforms Commission or
as per any number of Committees that we have -- they have to go step
by step. The pace, the momentum and the direction of these legislative
changes have to be maintained through those police reforms. There is
now a wealth of information through the Supreme Court directions on
police reforms. I know that the States are resisting. The States have a
different approach and a different view. But in some of the Union
Territories, the Central Government can make an example and lead by
way of example in a Union Territory; at least in some Union Territories,
where the Central Government has some power to make laws, where
the police force can be revamped. Certainly, Chinese walls can be
created between the prosecution, the investigation and the operation.
Why shouldn't we have, at least, two of these Chinese walls, if not
three? The person who operates on the field should not be
investigating, and the investigator should not be going to the Court every
day for prosecution. And then, you can apply simple new innovative
schemes to deal with these divisions For example, as I said in the
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other debate, if you can have an insurance cover for all your operational
police force, of Rs.1 crore in case of death and Rs.50 lakhs in case of
serious disability. This can be done if you create that division.
Sir, I am very grateful for the time given. In the ultimate analysis,
what is important is, despite the few self-congratulatory pats on the
back, despite the 'we told you so', and despite the allegations of
plagiarism, this is a united effort substantially and largely, and that is the
message of unity which we send out to the whole world. I have no
doubt that it is not only in the legislative framework, but also in the
actual implementation, that unity and that spirit will continue to pervade.
Therefore, ultimately, win us the victory over the terrorists.
(Ends)
(Followed by 3M)
TDB/3M/3.55
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (WEST BENGAL): Thank you, Sir. I rise
today, Sir, with the specific intention of seeking to enrich both the
legislations that have been moved by the Home Minister through
concrete amendments in order to strengthen our fight against terrorism,
our country's fight against terrorism and, at the same time, also to
preserve the inviolability of the federal structure of the Indian
Constitution. So, while fighting terrorism and maintaining and preserving
the federal structure, we do not think these are mutually contradictory or
exclusive objectives. I don't subscribe, Sir, that in order to fight
terrorism, we require laws which will conflict with the rights of the people
and individuals as human rights or fundamental rights enshrined in our
Constitution or the rights of the States as enshrined under the federal
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203
structure of our Constitution. I fully agree that every freedom has a
reasonable restriction. But, are these laws going beyond these
reasonable restrictions? Are they violative of the fundamental
understanding and the conception of our Constitution is a very important
matter that we cannot ignore? So, therefore, the amendment that we
would propose, I will come to that later, is in order to strengthen both
these objectives, strengthen the fight against terrorism, through these
new laws, at the same time, preserve the rights of the individuals and
the rights of the States which, I repeat, I do not think are contradictory
or mutually exclusive. This, Sir, I think it is very important for us in this
august House, because after all we are the Council of States. The rights
of the States under the Indian Constitution is something which we as the
Council of States ought to be the custodians to protect. So, therefore,
we require to pay a little more attention to this aspect, and that is where
I would like also to draw the attention of the House to recollect that the
Constitution of India defines our country as the Union of Indian States. It
is not the Indian Republic; it is not the Republic of India. It is the Union
of Indian States, and behind that is the rich understanding of federalism,
of federalism in a diversity which does not exist anywhere in the world.
There is no country which has such a rich plurality and diversity. And a
federal structure in this background, is a very important entity in keeping
our country together. Therefore, we will have to maintain that essence,
Sir, and I don't think any measure should be taken which can be
violative of that, and if we are doing that, I am afraid, we are going to
cut the branch on which we are sitting. So, therefore, I repeat once
again that I don't see the objective of strengthening our fight against
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204
terrorism as being in any way contradictory to preserving the federal
content of our Constitution. And, Sir, in this connection, it is also
important to again recollect the Constitution of India talks of India i.e.
Bharat. It is not India i.e. Hindustan. It is India i.e. Bharat. There is a big
philosophical understanding behind that. That by Hindustan, even by
mistake, even if we do not want to mean it, but if that meaning is
conveyed that this is the land only of the Hindus, then, we are, actually
negating the very concept and conception of modern India. I am raising
this point, Sir, precisely to underline the fact that the fight against
terrorism is not only a battle that has to be done through laws. The fight
against terrorism is finally also a political battle where we have to create
in our country conditions which cannot provide the fertile ground for
terrorism to thrive. And, if that has to be provided, then, the secular
credentials, the secular foundations of India will have to be strengthened,
and the political atmosphere and climate has to be brought about where
the fight against terrorism cannot be politicised, cannot be
communalised and India cannot afford it, if we want to win the war
against terror. And, that background is necessary because,
unfortunately, I think, so far, it has been a rather legalistic debate that
you had. I understand, both our esteemed colleagues are lawyers of
reputation, and since they have gone into the various clauses, but I
thought unless we get back the political backdrop in which we are
discussing this issue, I think, we will be missing the essence. In this
context, Sir, before I come to the actual contents of some of the
refinements that I am asking the Government to please accept, and
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205
concrete amendments have been moved there, is that in the Statement
of Objects and Reasons for the National Investigation Agency...
(Contd. by 3n-kgg)
kgg/3n/4.00
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (contd.): The hon. Home Minister has, here,
argued the need for such an agency, which I am not disputing. I will
come to that later. But, one of the reasons that he has done is because
of the innumerable incidents of terrorist attacks, where there is a specific
mention of Left-wing extremism. I have no objections for that fact
because we have been victims of the Left-wing extremism. Very recently,
there was an attack on our hon. Chief Minister of West Bengal by these
elements. We are on the forefront to combat it. But, if you are
mentioning 'Left-wing extremism', should not Right-wing extremism also
find a place? Why is that omitted? You had this entire investigations
done into the Malegaon blasts, you had the Nanded blasts, now that
trend has reached the Samjhauta Express blasts. You have had a
military school coming under the radar of these operations. All these are
the recent experiences. Why is it that you have mentioned only the Left-
wing extremism and omitted Right-wing extremism? All varieties of
extremisms, I repeat, terrorism knows neither religion, nor region, nor
caste nor creed. Terrorism has to be fought united as India and as
Indians and, therefore, do not give even in your Statement of Objects
and Reasons such an impression that this is directed only at one
particular screen or one direction. That will not win us our battle against
terrorism. That is something we will have to uncompromisingly state.
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Here, Sir, I would say that let us discuss these Bills in the
background with the gravity and sincerity that the fight against terrorism
cannot be conducted on the playground of politics and politicking. The
fight against terrorism has to be conducted as a serious business; it is
not a question of some minority vote bank or a majority vote bank, on
either sides that the accusations are being hurled, but this is an issue
which patriots, as each one of us, will have to stand up to this to fight
and it is in that spirit, Sir, I am making these concrete suggestions for
the consideration of the House.
As for the National Investigation Agency, there was a time, I
confess that my party and the people in the Left, were very
apprehensive of creation of such a federal agency. But, today, for
reasons we are supporting the creation of such an agency and the
reasons are as follows. One is that we have seen in the recent terrorist
attacks that there has been a woeful inadequacy in the coordination
between the various intelligence gathering agencies in our country. That
we have seen and we have been through that debate only the other
week here, in this House, I do not want to repeat all that has happened
in Mumbai; the fact remains that there is a need for greater coordination
between all these agencies. You have the Intelligence Bureau, you have
the R&AW, you have the Military Intelligence, you have the State
Intelligence, and there are all these inputs. But, some authority in order
to coordinate all these will have to be created. But, somehow, that is
not in the ambit of this Agency. This Agency, from the law that has been
drafted, comes into the picture only post-event. After the attack has
occurred, after the event has happened, then this Act comes into force.
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207
Fine. That part of it, I will come to afterwards. But, the other area, prior
to the event occurring, the coordination that is required, the Government
must pay attention to that aspect and also come with some concrete
proposals on that aspect.
Our hon. senior colleague, who is here, who was the Home
Minister for all these years under the UPA Government, as the political
leader, his head has rolled; but, the entire apparatus, the administrative
set up that you have underneath, in all this intelligence gathering,
security agencies, is intact, as it was, as though there has been nothing
wrong there; there is not one officer called to be accountable; not one
person who has been asked as to why this lapse has been happening.
We can, in the august House, and in the portals of Parliament pull him
up as the Home Minister. But, should we not set the entire structure in
order, Sir? A complete overhauling is required and a new security
architecture is required in the country. If that is to be done; the reason
why I am saying that, Sir, is that the new agency is, ultimately, to be
manned by the same people on whom you have not even pointed a
finger and asking for accountability.
(Contd. by kls/3o)
KLS/30-4.05
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD): If that is the case, what will be
results? That is a very, very severe question mark that is there and to
that area the Government will have to pay attention. Now having said
this, the second aspect which is very correct that we have seen with our
own experiences of many State Governments that many a terrorist act
that take place or a terrorist act that takes place, the linkage transient
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208
the borders of any individual State, in many cases they transience the
international borders of India and it is true that your require a federal
agency in order to conduct investigations of such nature and therefore,
we accept this proposal of having a national agency. But at the same
time, the rights of the States that need to be protected as well, this
issue as I said earlier at the outset must be kept in mind. Therefore,
how do you rectify or how do you reconcile both these issues? There is
a way within this draft and that is what I would like to concretely
propose because this draft, for instance, its clause 6.5 says, Sir, that
notwithstanding anything contained in this Section, if the Central
Government is of the opinion that a Schedule offence has been which is
required to be investigated under the Act it may suo motu direct the
agency to investigate the said offence. Now it follows, what the hon.
Home Minister explained, the agency may request the State Government
to associate itself with the investigations. But this is discretionary. The
powers of the State, as far as our federal structure is concerned, need
to be obligatory not discretionary. So, how do you make this obligatory
and how do we reconcile this situation? The Schedule under which this
agency will operate has eight Acts of the Parliament, eights Acts of the
land. Of these eight Act, I concretely propose that this Schedule be
divided into two parts, Schedule A and Schedule B; Schedule A deals
with six out of these eight Acts which are essentially atomic energy, anti-
hijacking Act, civil aviation Act, maritime navigation, weapons of mass
destruction, etc. and the Schedule B should have contained those two
acts, which is, Unlawful Activities Prevention Act and the Sections under
the Indian Penal Code. Now, both these Acts normally are implemented
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by the State agencies and the State police and, therefore, what I am
proposing is that as far as Schedule A is concerned, let the existing
provisions prevail, we have no objection to it. But as far as Schedule B
is concerned, a separate clause be inserted that for all investigations
conducted under Schedule B, the State Government will be necessarily
associated. This will remove the apprehension that this is violative of
the rights of the States. Therefore, this is the concrete manner in which I
think both the objectives can be reconciled.
(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI KALRAJ MISHRA) IN THE CHAIR)
I say this also, Sir, because Sections 121 to 131 of the Indian Penal
Code are precisely those on which the Communist Movement in the
country has been under attack a number of times -- your Meerut
Conspiracy, your Kanpur conspiracy, your banning of the Communist
Party, they have all been under these Sections. We are aware that such
a situation will come, that is a different matter, we will have to politically
fight the doubt, but let the State Governments association not be
discriminatory but made obligatory. This is also important in the Indian
context because the type of terrorism we face, what is happening in the
North East, without the involvement of the North-Eastern States, it is
impossible for any national level agency to actually even proceed with
conducting its investigation. The diversity of the terrorist groups that are
active in our country demands that the States be obligatorily associated
with at least these two Acts under the Schedule, the Indian Penal Code
and the Unlawful Activities Act. As far as other six are concerned, yes,
the existing provisions can remain. I think this is the, as far as I can
see, best way in which we can reconcile both these objectives. Having
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said this, Sir, I have moved a concrete amendment on this score and I
hope the Government will consider this. But having said this, as far as
National Investigation Agency is concerned, I come to the other Bill that
is being clubbed with this, the Unlawful Activities Prevention
(Amendment) Bill. (Contd by 3P/SSS)
SSS/3P/4.10
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): Now, Sir, this very Government
which we supported at that time and which we support even now, that
Act that they did at that time, and that is, this Government repealed the
POTA. There was logic for repealing the POTA and that logic was the
potential for gross misuse and our own experience of how POTA was
implemented and continues to be implemented even today. But, now it
appears that that logic has somehow been reneged, I would not use a
strong word as 'reneged', but, I would say, compromised with in
bringing in three concepts. Three concepts have been brought back
into these amendment Bills. The first one is in Clause 43 D, which talks
of the increases in the period of detention without bail. We heard the
provisions earlier. I am not repeating them. The proposal in this
amendment is to increase the period under detention to 180 days with
prior availability of bail and 180 days to even frame the charge sheets.
This we are told with a great deal of rhetoric that we have to be a
strong country, we have to be a strong nation to fight terrorism. Look at
the USA how it is fighting terrorism, look at the western countries, how
they are fighting terrorism, but, we are a weak state. But, does USA
do? After 9/11 the Anti-terror laws that they have passed, under the US
laws today, no US citizen can be detained for more than two days. You
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211
cannot detain anybody in custody for more than two days without
framing charges. What is the experience of the other western countries?
In Canada, you cannot detain for more than one day. In Russia, you
cannot detain for more than five days. In France, you cannot detain for
more than six days. In Ireland, where they have a very big separatist
movement and very big tension, you cannot detain for more than seven
days. In Turkey, where there is a big problem of fundamentalism and
democracy and fights on the streets, you cannot detain anybody for
more than seven and a half days. In the United Kingdom, a raging
debate took place only a few weeks ago when the proposal came to
increase the period under detention from 26 to 48 days. But the House
of Lords returned it. Since we follow the Westminster tradition let the
Rajya Sabha also return this, even though the Lok Sabha has passed
this. Let the Rajya Sabha return this. So we follow those traditions.
SHRI ANAND SHARMA: You like to be compared with the Lords.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: No, no, I am talking of the Upper House,
not to the Lords. What I am saying is, we follow the Westminster
system to the dot. The colour scheme is also the same. The colour
scheme of the House of Commons, the House of Lords is the same as
your Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha here and why is the Rajya Sabha
having colour red while Lok Sabha has the colour green? It is because
if the Lok Sabha does something wrong the red light is flashed from
here. We stopped the Lok Sabha. If they passed it to increase it to
180 days, we stopped it now and said, 'do not do this because there
is...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
212
SHRI ANAND SHARMA: If we were to do that, then, we know there will
be many Ex-Lords here who would be very happy to take your place
and my place.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: That we will not allow. We will do it for
democracy. We will do it for the people not for the Lordship.
Therefore, what I am saying is, please consider that if 90 days is not
sufficient for you to frame a charge sheet and if 180 days is required,
when you have all these countries which you adulate saying that they
are fighting against terror, they are strong States, there are States which
do not compromise on terror, if the maximum there is 46 days in UK
and the minimum is one day in Canada, two days in the USA, five days
in Russia, what message are you giving the world? We are so
incompetent? Our system cannot charge sheet. We cannot frame the
charges. Therefore, I will take such a long time and, then, open up the
Pandora's Box for misuse. We have seen how many youth languish in
Jail even under the 90 days period and we have seen it from Hyderabad
where I grew up, when the Mecca Masjid was taking place.
(Contd. by NBR/3Q)
-SSS/NBR-ASC/3Q/4.15.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): Not a single charge has been
proved against them. And, for over a year, this youth is languishing in
jail. What are you creating out of them? Innocently you are putting
them there. But, when they come out, what do they become? Patriot?
You are laying the fertile ground. If you want to fight terrorism, you do
not compromise human rights and fundamental rights to that extent.
That is precisely what I was saying. There can be reasonable
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213
restrictions. But, there cannot be such powers which can, actually, lead
to counterproductive situation.
Secondly, there is another clause 43E which deals with the
question of onus of proof. The onus of proof of a person's involvement
in any terrorist act, if any evidence is found of that person in the area of
the act, the onus of proof lies with the person who is accused, not with
the law and not with the court. This is a complete reversal of
conventional wisdom of jurisprudence which says, 'I am innocent until
proven to be guilty.' Here, I am guilty till I prove myself innocent. This
is, again, liable to be grossly misused. Anything that can be planted
belongs to me. I will be arrested and then shown that my belonging
was found on my side and it is me now to prove that I am innocent till
then I will be considered as guilty. This reversal of the entire philosophy
of jurisprudence, we think, is completely unwarranted in this case. If
there is such evidence -- yes, there may be such evidence -- let that be
produced before the court and let the court of law decide. Why do you
want to arm yourself by presumption that because that evidence is there
till I prove myself not guilty, I will be guilty? This is something, again,
which will be liable to be grossly misused.
The third one is 43F (2b) where it says, 'any person who refuses
to furnish information or furnishes wrong information is liable for 3 years
punishment or fine or both.' Now, our point is, the question of the
veracity of his refusal to furnish information is to depend on the report of
an officer of the rank of SP or higher. Now, whether the veracity of that
claim is correct or not why don't you let the court decide. Why do you,
again, want to presume saying that, 'I am saying that he is not
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214
furnishing information or furnishing wrong information. Therefore, he is
guilty and he will be imprisoned for 3 years.' So, our experience shows
that these three clauses have all been grossly mis-utilised and created
grievous harm to the country by alienating hundreds of people all over
the country due to wrongful confinement. I want to talk about our
earlier terror laws. What was our own experience of the TADA? Sir, the
TADA was brought in view of Punjab militancy. Sir, in Punjab more than
15,000 people arrested under the TADA. But the conviction rate was
less than 2 per cent for more than 15,000 people! And, then, of the
76,036 people arrested till mid 1994, by 2001, nearly, 99 per cent or
75,200 were in different stages of trial and had not been produced
before any court at all! You keep them in jails for five years or six years.
You don't produce them before the courts. And, then you say why is
terrorism is growing. If you cannot stop or plug such gross misuse of it,
you are creating the fertile ground for enemies of my country to work in
this field. You are providing them the fodder.
(CONTD. BY USY "3R")
-NBR-USY/3R/4.20
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): This is their gunpowder with
which they work. So, please keep that in mind. What happened to the
POTA? As I said, very correctly they withdrew it. The Central POTA
Review Committee, in May 2005, went through all the POTA detainees in
Gujarat. And, then, what did it say. I am quoting paragraph 40 of the
Review Committee's Report. It says, "After appreciating the evidence
made available to us, and considering the respective arguments of the
learned counsel of the accused people and the learned Public
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215
Prosecutor, the Committee is of the considered view that the incident
had taken place on the date, time and place, as alleged by the
prosecution, but, certainly not as a part of the conspiracy envisaged
under the provisions of the POTA." Then, it goes on to say to release
all these people under the POTA and try them with the other laws that
exist in our country. What is the reality? These people continue to
remain in jail under the POTA even today. While we are discussing this,
they are still under the POTA after the Review Committee gave it in May
2005. Three-and-a-half years have passed after the Review Committee
said that its decision would be final. But these people are still
languishing in jails.
(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
What sort of fight against terror is this of gross misuse of human
liberties? Fight against terror by all means which all of us united, as one
man, will do it together. But that fight has to be done within the
democratic framework that we have and the federal structure that we
have. And, we think, it is perfectly possible. It is perfectly possible to
conduct this fight against terrorism. Strengthen our fight against
terrorism through the concrete amendments that I have suggested,
without encroaching upon the rights of the States. We can conduct this
fight against terror without unduly affecting the human liberties and
fundamental human rights of our people. And, that can be done if we
can actually accept the concrete amendments that we have suggested;
that we can reconcile both these conflicting objectives that the Home
Minister had said when he was introducing these Bills. I see them not
conflicting per se, I see them how you have to temper both these
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216
objectives in order to ensure that one is not violently encroached upon
in order to pursue the other. So, I do not subscribe to the theory that
in order to pursue the fight against terrorism you have to curtail human
liberties and human rights. There will be reasonable restrictions, but
beyond that I don't think that anything further drastic needs to be done.
Therefore, Sir, finally I would like to say that we should not
proceed with certain knee-jerk reactions. The Home Minister has
graciously said that they would revisit these laws once again in February
when we meet. If you are going to revisit these laws, why did you not
send it to the Standing Committee for a proper examination? And, if
you are going to revisit these laws, then, what is the point in which you
are hurrying through this process. We want to strengthen ourselves in
our fight against terrorism, but in order to do so let there not be knee-
jerk reactions. Please seriously pay attention and consideration to the
amendments moved by us. In that way, try and reasonably measure out
the manner in which we are proceeding to fight against terrorism but, at
the same time, also protecting the rights of individuals and the federal
rights of the States under our Constitution.
Again, Sir, I would only wish you underline that the fight against
terrorism is not only through legal laws and legal means. I had said that
at the outset that there are many steps that will have to be taken to
prevent such attacks from taking place rather than bringing in laws in
order to deal with such attacks after they have taken place. Both are
important. Yes, you bring in these laws to fight, but these laws per se
can only act as a deterrent, but they cannot act as prevention. In order
to have the prevention, as what I have suggested earlier, the other areas
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217
need to be looked into. There needs to be a greater coordination
between our investigating agencies and security agencies; that is one
thing apart. But, most importantly, the political climate and atmosphere
has to be created to fight terrorism and fight unitedly by all of us as
Indians. That's why, today, while we pay homage to Mr. Hemant
Karkare, we pay homage to all those people who laid down their lives
there, please recollect, hours before they gave up their lives, the sort of
vilification that was being done against them, because they were
pursuing a particular investigation of a particular military school.
(Contd. by 3s -- VP)
VP/4.25/3S
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): You cannot have such double
standards. If you want to fight terrorism, you have to create the
atmosphere in our country where communalism cannot feed terrorism
and terrorism cannot be an instrument for communal polarisation for
political ends. We have to end that atmosphere, otherwise, we cannot
fight terrorism in our country. That is one precondition. The other
precondition is, you have to eliminate the sort of stark poverty,
impoverishment and depravity that we find in large parts of our country.
It is this poverty that creates and lays the basis; foundation,
unfortunately, for such terrorist groups and activities to flourish. The
flavour of the month or, let us say, the flavour of the times, after the
USA election, after the victory of Mr. Obama, has changed. They were
seeking a change and everybody wants a change. But, what is the
change I see in my country? You go out of this Parliament House, you
walk through any red light in our country, on the roads here, you will
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218
find people asking for change. They are asking for change from your
pockets. These are beggars on the streets. They are not asking for a
change of the system which we are talking about. But, if you don't
change that situation where people are asking petty change from your
pockets as their only means of livelihood, you will forever keep providing
all anti-democratic forces like terrorists the fertile ground for recruiting
people from these areas. Unless you follow economic policies that will
eliminate these conditions, you will not succeed in your fight against
terrorism. So, let us not reduce our fight against terrorism only to the
enactment of some laws, as important as they may be. But, let us take
up this fight against terrorism in right earnest, as a united country, in a
secular manner where terrorism has to be fought without any tags of
religion, region, caste or creed, where terrorism will have to be fought by
creating those conditions, those preconditions on which terrorism or
terrorists can't thrive. It is that sort of an India we have to create if we
have to fight terrorism.
Therefore, on behalf of my party, I would request the Government
to concretely consider the amendments that we have moved because
we think these amendments are to strengthen the struggle against
terrorism on the one hand and to safeguard the federal content of the
Indian Constitution, the civil liberties and human rights of our people on
the other.
Finally, it should pursue policies which will create a more
egalitarian society rather than create disparities which will be used from
the bottom end by the terrorists for their activities to thrive. So, Sir,
unless we do it in a holistic manner, we will not succeed in this struggle.
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219
I hope the Government will take these amendments seriously. I request
them to accept these amendments and let us, together, enact this
legislation with these amendments so that we can strengthen our fight
against terrorism. Thank you, Sir. (Ends)
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY AND MINISTER OF
EARTH SCIENCES (SHRI KAPIL SIBAL): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I
am, indeed, grateful to intervene in this very, very significant debate. I
want to record my appreciation both for the Opposition in this House,
my good friends on the right, but, otherwise, on the left, for supporting
the setting up of a National Investigating Agency, as well as,
amendment to the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act. But, I thought
that we would proceed with this debate without any sense of acrimony,
without any accusations against each other so that we can send a
message not to the nation but also the rest of the world that in our fight
against terrorism we stand together. I was hoping that that would
happen. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I am absolutely surprised
that my learned friend, Mr. Arun Jaitley, who is very capable, made a
very curious statement in this House by saying that republicanism and
national sovereignty can't go together.
(Continued by PB/3T)
PB/3T/4.30
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): That's extraordinary. I thought that
republicanism and passion for republicanism, passion for human rights is
the only secure way to ensure national sovereignty; and I can do no
more than, in a way, put the substance of the words of the Prime
Minister in a recent International Conference on "Jurists on Terrorism,
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220
Rule of Law and Human Rights held on 13th of December where he, in
substance, said the following, which is a marriage between
republicanism and our national sovereignty. This is what he said. He
said, "We need to be resolute, yet careful in our fight against terrorism.
We need to understand the relationship between human rights and the
fight against terrorism. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
They can go hand in hand. When in conflict, it is possible to resolve
them. Systematic terrorist acts qualify as crimes against humanity. They
sometimes threaten national security. In certain circumstances, States
are both entitled and obliged to take steps that derogate from human
rights principles. We should not feel discouraged. Certain rights and
freedoms can be derogated from, but only to the extent necessary to
meet the security threat. The fight against terrorism should not result in
brutalisation of our society. We must also ensure that no group or
section of society gets targeted in our commitment to fight terrorism.
What is required is flexibility. We cannot put our rights and freedoms at
risk while dealing with terrorists.' I think, Sir, that is really a statement
which encapsulates the significance of the connection between
republicanism and national sovereignty.
Sir, there are five statements that my good friend made at the
outset which he gave as reasons which were untenable prior to what
happened in Mumbai and the first of those five statements says that 'we
said that anti-terror laws were against minorities.' I don't think any of us
has ever made that statement. We have always said that 'we have seen
with our own eyes and through the knowledge that we get from what is
around us that anti-terror Acts in the past, in particular, POTA, were
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221
actually used against minorities.' The law was not against minorities. But
it was used against the minorities, and that is what we said. We never
said that 'anti-terror laws are anti-minority.' And the proof of the
pudding, Sir, is in the eating. I remind my good friend, Mr. Jaitley, of
what happened in Godhara. On the 27th of February, after that horrible
event, about 90-odd people were put in jail and it was set out time after
time through public statements by responsible people in this country that
these are all terrorists. Now, Sir, we are in 2008 and by February, 2009,
seven years would have passed. May I say on the record of this House
that not any of them has got bail?
Sir, under POTA, there was a Review Committee which is a
statutory Committee; and, in terms of that Committee, on 16th of May,
2005, that Committee came to this conclusion; and, I quote, "In our
opinion, this is a simple case of unlawful assembly committing various
offences under the Penal Code and other special Acts but certainly not
under the provisions of the POTA." This decision came in 2005. The
Gujarat Government refused to implement it. They refused to implement
it. The Public Prosecutor moved the Magistrate saying that 'you don't
accept the opinion of the Review Committee.' The matter ultimately had
to go to the Supreme Court, and, on October 21, 2008, this is what the
Supreme Court said, and, I quote, ... (Contd. by 3u/MKS)
MKS-AKA/4.35/3U
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.):
"We, therefore, hold that once the Review Committee, on review, under section 23 of the Repealing Act, expresses the opinion that there is no prima facie case for proceeding against the accused in
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222
cases in which cognisance has been taken by the court, such cases shall be deemed to have been withdrawn."
These cases were deemed to have been withdrawn in 2005, but, in
2008, they are still languishing in jail! They have not got bails, Sir.
Forget about the bail. No charges have been framed against them after
almost seven years! This is what we meant, Sir. POTA was not an
anti-minority law. But POTA was being used by them against the
minorities. ...(Interruptions)... This is the first statement that my learned
friend made.
The second statement that he made was that we said that no
special law was required because that would infringe human rights. We,
again, never said that at no stage, any member of our Government, or
when we were in opposition, we never said that. We only said, please
do not misuse an instrument of law as an instrument of oppression
against a particular community. So, I want to just set the record
straight.
The third statement that he made was that we said that this law
would provide scope for misuse and abuse. Not only did we say it; we
proved it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We have shown to
you how certain Governments have misused these laws.
And, then, he said that we also said that anti-terror laws do not
prevent terrorism. We still stand by that, Sir. POTA was in place when
this great Institution was attacked. It was in place. MOCOCA was in
place when Mumbai was attacked. The terrorists attacked Parliament
despite POTA and the terrorists attacked Mumbai despite MOCOCA!
Laws do not prevent terrorists from attacking and killing the innocent
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223
people. Attacks are made on the basis of the mindset of people, and
what we have to fight......(Interruptions)... I am not going into the debate
on communalism. I am just going to say about the assumptions, the
statements attributed to us; I want to set the record straight on the floor
of the House.
My learned friend has made four assumptions on the basis of
which he has attempted to attack the Government. Firstly, he said that
we have brought back POTA. He said he has mixed feelings about it
because it is like a halfway house, and in a sense, we have brought
back POTA. Well, I am afraid, that assumption is completely wrong.
We have not brought back POTA, and I will prove it to you in the letter
and words that we have not.
The second assumption that he made was that this is a cut-and-
paste job, that basically, we have borrowed this law from POTA and, in
a sense, it is stealing intellectual properly. Well, I will demonstrate to
him that that is also wrong in substance.
The third thing that he said was: "How will you get convict of
Lakhvi? How will you get conviction of other people in Pakistan unless
you make the confession of an accused to a police officer, admissible in
evidence? You can't do that. Because if you had POTA in place, we
could have done that." The third assumption is completely wrong. I will
demonstrate it presently.
The last assumption which he made was very unfortunate. He
said that this Government has led this country vulnerable. I don't think
that any Member of this House could make such a statement. No
Governments want their country ever to be vulnerable; not even yours.
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224
If and when you come to power, we will never make that statement, in
any part of this House. Yes, the country was attacked. Yes, our Home
Minister went to Bombay and said, "We are sorry." But it is not as if it
has not happened in the past. If I start telling you as to what has
happened after 2001 and the number of times this country was attacked
by terrorists despite POTA, it would be a sad story. But I do not want
to indulge in that blame-game. That is not the purpose of this debate.
Let us have a constructive debate. (Contd. by TMV/3W)
-MKS-TMV-VNK/3W/4.40
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): Now, let me go back to the first
assumption. He has said that we have brought back POTA in this
amendment of the Unlawful Activities Act. There are three provisions
that we have now incorporated in this Bill. One is that section 167 of
the Code of Criminal Procedure has been incorporated with some
variation. The second is the bail provision and the third is confession.
My learned friend knows that confession has not been brought back in
any way. As far as the bail provision is concerned, the original bail
provision of POTA was a modification of TADA. The original TADA
provision is that if an accused wants bail, then the Public Prosecutor
must be given an opportunity to oppose it. If the Public Prosecutor
opposes it, two conditions have to be satisfied before bail can be
granted. The first condition is that the court must come to the
conclusion that the accused is not guilty of the offence. Now, I wonder
how a court can ever come to a conclusion that a person is not guilty of
an offence before the trial! Impossible! So, naturally, nobody ever got
bail. The second condition is that in the event the bail is granted, he
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225
will not commit an offence in future. Now, how can any court come to
a conclusion that if it grants him bail, he will not commit an offence?
No court ever comes to that conclusion. That was a TADA provision.
Now, the POTA provision left out the latter part, namely, the satisfaction
of the judge that if he is granted bail he will not commit another offence.
But they kept the other part, namely, that he must come to the
conclusion that he is not guilty of the offence. The result was nobody
ever got bail. Is that the purpose of criminal jurisprudence? Therefore,
in the present provision we have made a substantive change which is
the balancing of human rights consistent with our Constitutional
principles and taking care of our national security. The provision is the
following: If a person wants bail the Public Prosecutor has to be heard
and if the Public Prosecutor opposes the bail, then the judge can't grant
bail. Unless the judge grants bail, the judge comes to the conclusion
that he has prima facie committed an offence, not that he is innocent.
That prima facie there is evidence to show that he has committed an
offence is the provision of the Code of Criminal Procedure in cases of
murder, whether it is life imprisonment or death. The same principle in
the Code of Criminal Procedure which is applicable to cases where
punishment is death or life imprisonment is now put back into this law.
It is a substantive depart from POTA and it has nothing to do with POTA
and the provision of confession to a police officer has been dropped.
The third provision is the detention of 180 days which my learned
friend talked about. There is again a difference between POTA and the
present provision. Under POTA, if the Public Prosecutor made an
application to the court that he could not complete his investigation,
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226
merely on that application, without anything more, the judge had to give
him time for 180 days. Under the present law if an application is made--
because the provisions said, "shall grant an extension for 180 days"--it
says, "the court, if it is satisfied that the investigating authorities have
done whatever they could, may grant extension". Again, it has nothing
to do with the POTA provision. So, qua all the basic provisions on
which we had opposition, we have not accepted any of POTA. So, for
you to say that we have brought back POTA through the backdoor and
that is why you have mixed feelings, I am afraid, the whole assumption
is wrong, Mr. Jaitley.
Secondly, it is very interesting, he asked: How are you going to
get the people convicted? How are you going to get conviction of the
people in Pakistan, unless you have the confession provision? Well, Mr.
Jaitley knows in a court of law and under POTA, even if you had POTA
today, you could not get conviction of the people in Pakistan because
POTA provision on confession says--this is something in the law itself--
that the confession of an accused will be only used against him.
(Contd. by 3X/VK)
VK/3X/4.45
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD): It cannot be used against the third
person. This is an amendment you made, Mr. Jaitley; your Government
made. I will give you the law. You are shaking your head. I will give it
to you. This is the POTA provision. It says, "...shall be admissible in
the trial of such person for an offence under this Act or the rules made
thereunder. The confession shall be recorded in an atmosphere free
from threat or inducement and shall be in the same language in which
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227
the person makes it. The person from whom a confession has been
recorded under sub-section (1) shall be produced before the
Metropolitan Magistrate.." So the confession has to be used against
him alone. That is the law.
Now I tell you what TADA said and what MOCOCA said. This is
what TADA said which you departed from. Section 15 of TADA says,
"...shall be admissible in the trial of such person or co-accused, abettor
or conspirator for an offence under this Act or rules made thereunder".
That was the TADA provision. They took out co-accused under POTA.
They took out abettor and they took out conspirator.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sibal, kindly address the Chair.
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I am just indicating through you, Sir, ...
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, my learned friend should be obsessed
against terrorists, not against me. (Interruptions). Being a Minister, he
should not be apologetic.....(Interruptions).
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the point that I am
making is, it is very unfortunate for a man who knows the law to make a
statement of such a serious nature that if POTA had been there we
could have got conviction of other people who are in Pakistan. That is
a very serious statement. Then to accuse this Government
....(Interruptions).
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, if he wrongly quotes me and then he
answers something which I have not said, either we make it a personal
debate and I answer him back or he talks about the Bill that this
Government has brought.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
228
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, I do not want to answer him because he will
say I am trying to answer.....(Interruptions).
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Everything you said on the Gujarat case, you
concealed the basic facts. You concealed the facts how your
Government helped the persons who set the train on fire. If you want,
let the entire history of the case be discussed. (Interruptions). The
Central Government filed affidavits. They have not been granted bail
because the Supreme Court did not....(Interruptions). The Supreme
Court said, "They are still guilty under Section 302. So, they can't be
given bail". The Minister of the Government ....
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: That is incorrect. I have got the Supreme Court
judgement. I do not want to go into it.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: They have been denied bail. (Interruptions).
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I have quoted to you the Supreme Court
judgement. I have not said anything more than that. I don't want to
enter into any debate here.
SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: That is only on the binding nature of a Review
Committee finding.
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: If you don't mind....(Interruptions). Sir, the point I
am making is, this particular law is a great departure from POTA. We
stand by what we did, namely, we repealed POTA; we have not got
back POTA; we have no intentions of bringing back POTA. What we
have done is to ensure that in certain circumstances an investigation
can carry on for 180 days and in certain circumstances bail can be
granted and no confessions to a police officer are admissible in
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229
evidence. That is all we have done. The second point he made was that
once Kasab makes a confession, it can be used against others. Now,
Sir, in an investigation what happens is, you get hold of somebody and
you ask him to confess. Then you have to get the presence of other
people who are involved. Unless you get the presence of those people
you can't carry on with the investigation because you cannot prosecute
those people. So you have to get custody of those people from
Pakistan. Once you get custody of those people from Pakistan, you
interrogate them. After you interrogate them, you get evidence. Once
you get evidence, you can convict them on that evidence. You don't
have to depend on x's confession to convict 'y'. You have to depend
on your investigation and your interrogation. If you don't get custody of
the accused, how would you convict them?
(Contd. by 3Y)
RG/SC/4.50/3Y
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (contd.): To say, therefore, at this point in time, as
to how we would convict the others unless we get the confession, is
meaningless. You have to first get the custody, which is what this
Government is trying. This is what this Government has told Pakistan,
"Please give us the custody of Lakhvi. Please give us the custody of all
those whom Kasab has named." Now, if they are sent to India, then,
we have a right to interrogate them. Once we have a right to
interrogate them, we will get the evidence. Once we get the evidence,
we will be able to prove the charges against them. The argument,
therefore, doesn't stand on reason; it is based on an assumption that
doesn't exist. Then, my learned friend said, "Look, as far as you are
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230
concerned, you have opened yourselves to the charge that without
bringing in this tough law, you are a vulnerable State." I am afraid that
is not fair for him to say a thing like that. How is it that we are a
vulnerable State? We are a vulnerable State because of the fact that for
the last 20 or 30 years, we have not paid attention to the kind of things
that ought to have done to empower our intelligence agencies, to equip
them with proper instruments, to ensure that they have proper
mechanisms for investigation, to arm them with the most modern
weapons and to ensure co-operation of both investigating and
intelligence agencies through out the country. That is the reason why
we have not been able to arm ourselves with the kind of weaponry and
the kind of paraphernalia that we need to counter terrorists. And that
has nothing to do with one Government or the other. In the last 20 or
30 years, that has not been done. And this has been proved in
Mumbai. It had been proved when Parliament was attacked. It had
been proved in Akshardham. It had been proved in Kaluchar. It had
been proved in all the attacks that have taken place. And that blame
doesn't go to one Government or the other. As a society, we have not
moved forward to protect ourselves, and that is what we need to do.
Sir, what is POTA? POTA is used when a terrorist is caught.
Then, you deal with terrorists. POTA has nothing to do with an attack
via terrorists. Before he is caught, POTA doesn't come into play. So,
POTA does not prevent an attack. POTA ensures conviction. POTA
ensures punishment. POTA ensures evidence. POTA does not prevent
an attack. And what we are talking about is prevention. We are not
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
231
talking about punishment. These laws deal with punishment. These
laws do not deal with prevention...(Interruptions)
ÁÖß ¸ü‘Öã®Ö®¤ü®Ö ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ : ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, µÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú •ÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ±ÓúÃÖ ÝÖ‹ Æïü… ‡®ÖÛúÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú
•ÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê ×®ÖÛúÖ×»Ö‹…..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
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†Ö¯Ö ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖê ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸üÛú¸ü †Ö¯Ö †“”ûÖ »ÖÖ‹ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹…
ÁÖß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö : ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ŸÖÖê ´Öï®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖ ×¤üµÖÖ… Now, Sir, the third point that he
raised was, "Look; you have stolen our intellectual property. It is
something that you have just cut and paste from POTA." I just want to
put the record straight. When they came to power, it was in 1996 for 13
days, in 1998 for 13 months and then till 2004. Prior to that, they have
never really been in power except during 1977-79. All the laws, that
have been framed, have been framed by the Congress (I) Government.
In 1999, when they came to power, they copied TADA and made
MCOCA in Maharashtra. I don't want to go into those provisions. All
the provisions of MCOCA are a replication of TADA. All the basic
provisions, that I have talked about, are a replication of TADA. I have
got the MCOCA Act with me; I don't want to enter into the controversy.
Now, all the provisions, that he has relied upon in POTA, are a 'cut and
paste' of all the previous Acts that have been passed by the Congress
(I) Government; whether it is the Narcotics Act or it is the COFEPOSA or
it is the FEMA or any other Act. All the provisions exist in those Acts.
What they did was they copied TADA and brought POTA, and then, they
say as if POTA is something which they have been able to put on the
book. This kind of argument is like a child saying, "ŸÖæ®Öê ´Öê¸üÖ ÛúÖò¯Öß Ûú¸ü
×»ÖµÖÖ…" Is this the kind of argument to be made in a House saying,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
232
"Look; you did a cut and paste job"? I don't think these kind of
arguments should be made on a very serious issue that we are faced
with today, that is, terrorism. (Continued by 3Z)
TDB/3Z/4.55
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): Sir, the last point I wish to make is that
they had six years to set up a national or a federal agency to investigate
crimes. Really, if they had set up that agency, we would be in a
stronger position today. They had six long years; they were not able to
do it. Why they were not able to do it, I don't understand. But, the fact
of the matter is that this investigative agency is really the basis on which
intelligence gathering will be made in this country, and cooperation will
be had with all agencies throughout the country along with
modernisation and electronic equipment so that there is a national server
on the basis of which information in that server will be analysed and
people can prevent acts taking place. This Agency was a much needed
agency. It ought to have been set up by us long time ago, and I don't
even blame them. What they ought to do is to cooperate with us and
say, 'look, this is good'. He said so; I am glad that he had said so. This
National Investigating Agency will be the one which will be the backbone
for prevention because this is the one that gathers the evidence to
ensure that there are preventive acts. The amendment to the Unlawful
Activities Act is nothing to do with prevention. It is something to do with
punishment. I am afraid, the points that are sought to be made in a
national debate ought not to point fingers at the other party and say,
'you were not able to save India from a terrorist attack.' Because that, I
am afraid, should not be the tenor of this debate, as my learned friend
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
233
has made it out to be. Because terrorism is not something that can be
prevented by anybody. These acts have been taking place right from the
beginning. These are hundreds of years old. Terrorist acts have
happened in the past, except that now with modernisation of equipment,
terrorists are able to attack using better weapons than even those who
can defend themselves. So, terrorism is not something that can be
wished away. Even America can't wish it away. See, what is happening
in Iraq. The Americans have not been able to quell terrorism in Iraq,
despite the fact that they have the most modern weaponry.
SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: They created it.
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: That is not the point. The point is, they have not
been able to. Weapons can't by themselves destroy terrorism. You have
to have a mindset, and if you follow a policy, that breeds terrorism,
then, in the ultimate analysis, you will fall prey to it. Therefore, these
debates should not be the kind of communal debates that we are seeing
in this country. These acts should not be acts used as instruments of
oppression against a, b and c. These acts should not be there to say
because you are soft on terror, therefore, you want to favour a particular
community, you want vote-bank politics, that is why you are doing this.
This is what vitiates the atmosphere. I can understand the politics
behind it. But, if you really want to care about the security of this
country, or, you are concerned about the security of this country, don't
play politics with security, don't play politics with terrorism. Don't say
that you are doing this because you are trying to protect a particular
community. We will protect anybody that need to be protected, no
matter what his religion is. But, the problem is, you are using it as an
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
234
instrument. I mean, I heard national leaders saying, 'look, people are
torturing somebody in jail'. I heard national leaders say that somebody is
being tortured in jail. Why should we torture knowing full well, and my
good friend will know about it that every lawyer knows about it that
whenever an accused is charged with an offence and he is put in
custody, he comes out with an application saying, 'I am tortured'. So,
suddenly, for one particular person in India, it became a national issue
that person is being tortured, that while hundreds and hundreds of
people are rotting in jails today and are being tortured, denied bail,
nobody speaks for them. That is why I say don't use these acts as
instruments of politics for your national agenda which is to divide
society, which is to build barriers amongst people. And that is the tenor
of the debate today. 'You were soft on terror, we are strong on terror'.
They tried it in Delhi, and see what happened. The people in this
country are far too mature to be taken in by all this. They have shown
their maturity. And, you know their 'poster boy' roamed all around the
States, talking about terror. (Contd. by 4a-kgg)
kgg/asc/5.00/4a
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (contd.): I remember distinctly, when we talked about
intelligence failure when Kargil took place and a whole territory was
occupied, we said, "There is a big intelligence failure', and they said,
"You are anti-national". They said, we are anti-national. Why? Because
we said there was an intelligence failure. They talked about intelligence
failure even while we were being attacked in Mumbai. They were not
anti-national then! Why? Because it served their politics! They went to
Mumbai, some of their poster boys made statements in Mumbai, 'I give
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
235
this amount of money to this person, I give this amount of money to this
person.' (Interruptions)
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
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SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: When an hon. Member brought the issue about Mr.
Antuley, there was nothing about the unlawful activities. It has nothing to
do with it. He brought it up. If he can bring it up, can I not bring it up?
(Interruptions) The problem is, if you had put your case before the
House on the basis of law, I would have argued the law. But you tried
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
238
to make out as if this Government has made India vulnerable. I am
shocked at your statement. Is that a responsible statement in the
context of the fact that we are trying together to fight terror?
(Contd. by kls/4b)
KLS/4B-5.05
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD): This is not fair and that is all I am
saying. What is that that we are trying to do? We are trying to make
sure that when a fight in respect of terror we must respect the basic
constitutional principles that we are adhered to and we swear by and at
the same time make sure that the laws do not brutalise society. These
are the two balancing factors. We have tried the best that we could.
You can have a difference of opinion and you can say that we do not
agree with it and when you come to power you change it with the
majority that you have but you cannot say that you have made this
country vulnerable. That you cannot say in a debate like this, that is not
the statement of a responsible person. That is all I am saying out of a
party. That is all, nothing more I wish to say. You want to talk about
the law, you differ on the law, you want to bring back the 'confession',
and you bring back the confession. May I just end up by saying one
thing? Sir, Kartar Singh case was decided by a majority of three to two
and in 2005, 11 Supreme Case 600, this is what the Judges said about
Kartar Singh. I may just quote this for you. This is what they said, they
talked about Kartar Singh case "The Court thus merely emphasise the
obvious and added a remark that the Court on several occasions
awarded exemplary compensation to the victims at hands of the police."
Para 54, the Constitution Bench judgement is binding on us, that is,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
239
Kartar Singh is binding on us. In fact, the ratio of the judgment applies
with greater force to POTA as the guidelines set out by the Constitution
Bench are substantially incorporated into Section 32. It is perhaps too
late to seek reconsideration of the view taken by a majority of Judges of
the Constitution Bench but as we see Section 32 a formidable doubt
lingers in our minds, despite the pronouncement of Kartar Singh that
pertains to the rationale and the reason behind drastic provision making
the confession to a police officer admissible in evidence in a trial for the
POTA detainee. Not I, not Congress Party, not UPA, it is the Supreme
Court saying this. ....(Interruptions)... Many questions do arise and we
are unable to find satisfactory or even plausible answers to them. We
do not think that the comparative is with which the confession could be
extracted from the accused would be pleaded as justification." If it is
so, should the end justify the means? Should the police officer be
better trusted than a Magistrate? Does the magnitude and severity of
the offence justify the entrustment of job of the recording of a
confession to a police officer? Does it imply that it is easier to make an
accused confess the guilt before a police officer so that it could pave
the way for conviction in a serious offence? I find no direct answer to
these questions either in Kartar Singh or the latest case of People's
Unity. Not me, the Supreme Court is saying that do not give this power
to police officers. So, if you want a confession under the Criminal
Procedure Code, Section 164 gives you that right. You can take a
confession before a Magistrate. That right is intact; you can get that
confession. So, you can get that confession. So, the Supreme Court
doubts it, Civil Liberty People doubt it, we have doubts about it and if
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
240
we have done something reasonable, we made the country vulnerable! Is that
the argument that if we do something reasonable we make the country
vulnerable because it is not reasonable as far as you are concerned? It is this
kind of debate, this polarised debate by which you want the outside world to
know, to score political points which has destroyed the unity of this country
and which has not enabled us to fight terrorism in the way we should. My
request to you and to all the hon. Members of this House is that get out of
that mindset. After all, everything evolves in life, including your thinking,
including the way the political parties should think and should work.
Mindset should also change. This is the law of the nature. Nothing is
ever constant. I hope in the time to come and I have no mixed feelings
about it, I have strong feelings that the NDA and the BJP are the
nationalist people. (Contd by 4C)
PSV-SSS/4C/5.10
SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): In their heart they have the desire to
protect the security of the nation. They may sometimes use that
argument for political end. But, in your heart, I know that you too want
to protect the nation. But, don't in that process destroy the unity of this
country, which is fundamental to this country being together, not just
extremism, not just terrorism but also all other challenges that we face.
We are at the threshold of a new century and in that we need to get
together to fight the scourge of terrorism together and unitedly. Thank
you very much.
(Ends)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
241
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü…
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SHRI AVTAR SINGH KARIMPURI: Sir, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖ´ÖôÖÖ‡‹, ask him not to use
uncivilized language...(Interruptions)...
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Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions)...
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ÁÖß ²ÖΕÖê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖ®Öê ÛúÖ ÛúÖ´Ö ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... †ÝÖ¸ü ×ÛúÃÖß Ûêú ‘Ö¸ü ´Öë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü
²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤ü Æãü†Ö Æîü ŸÖÖê ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †¯Ö®Öß •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûú¸êüÝÖß, ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûú¸êüÝÖß…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... µÖÆü ÃÖÆüß ®ÖÆüà Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîšü •ÖÖ‹Ó…
†Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹, ¯»Öß•Ö ²Öîךü‹…
ÁÖß ²ÖΕÖê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : ‡®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖ´ÖôÖÖ‡‹ ×Ûú ÛúÖê‡Ô ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ ×ÛúÃÖß Ûêú ‘Ö¸ü ´Öë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ…
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹ ®Ö… ....(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö) ....µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü?
Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions)... ¯»Öß•Ö †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹…
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
244
We should have some sense of tolerance. It is not possible for the
Chair to direct the Member to speak only this language or that language.
The Chair can only regulate the House. When some un-parliamentary
expressions are used, we will delete them. He is independent to put his
views. But, at the same time, he should concentrate on the
subject...(Interruptions)...How can any Member get up and start saying
whatever he wants? Why should be the Chair then? It is for the Chair
to regulate, not any Member to intervene ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü, ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ˆ¢Öê×•ÖŸÖ ÃÖÖ£Öß ÛúÖê ×¾Ö®Ö´ÖÏŸÖÖ ÃÖê ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ
“ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú וÖÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ‹ŸÖ¸üÖ•Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖ‡••ÖŸÖ ¸üÖ•ÖÖ ³Ö¦üß Ûêú
¸üÖ•ÖÛãÓú¾Ö¸ü, ÆüÖ‡ÔÛúÖê™Ôü ÃÖê •Ö²Ö»Ö¯Öã¸ü ´Öë µÖÆü ³Öß †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®Öê ÛúÖ ¤ãü:ÃÖÖÆüÃÖ
Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÃÖê ŸÖÖê ²Ö›Íêü ®ÖÆüà Æïü Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖÖ£Öß ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü? ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ®Öê
ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ˆÃÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ÃÖê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ, •ÖÖê †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü »ÖÝÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ… ŸÖÖê •Ö²Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ
®Öê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü †¾Öî¬Ö Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ, ²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤ü Æüß ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ,
»Öê×Ûú®Ö ו֮֟Öê פü®Ö "¯ÖÖê™üÖ" ÛúÖ "ÃÖÖê™üÖ" ˆ®ÖÛêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü “Ö»ÖÖ, ˆŸÖ®Öê פü®Ö Ûúß ¯Öß›ÍüÖ Æîü… ¾ÖÆü
®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ «üÖ¸üÖ ²ÖêÛúÃÖæ¸ü ×ÃÖ¨ü ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Öß›ÍüÖ ÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ¾ÖÆü ÛúÆü ¤ëü ×Ûú µÖÆü
†Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖ ×Ûú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö ´Öë ¾ÖÆü ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÛúÖê ¯ÖϳÖÖ×¾ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¤ëüÝÖê, ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Öß Æïü? šüßÛú Æîü ¾ÖÆü
ÝÖ›Íü²Ö›Íü ¾µÖ׌ŸÖ Æïü †Ö¯ÖÛúß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë, Æü´Ö ³Öß †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß Æïü †Ö¯ÖÛúß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë ŒµÖÖë×Ûú Æü´Ö †Ö¯ÖÛúß
¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔÛú ®ÖÆüà Æïü… ŸÖÖê †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö ÃÖê Æü™üÛú¸ü ´Ö¬µÖ ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö ´Öë ÝÖµÖß †Öî¸ü
´Ö¬µÖ ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö Ûúß ÆüÖ‡ÔÛúÖê™Ôü ®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ²ÖÖ‡••ÖŸÖ ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ Æîü…
(4 ‡Ô/Ûêú‹»Ö•Öß ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)
4E/KLG-USY/5.20
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ´Öë »ÖÖ‹ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú †Ö¤ü¸üÞÖßµÖ
†¬µÖõÖ, ´ÖÓ¡Öß ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²Ö®ÖÖµÖÖ… ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤üÝÖß ´Öë ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ˆÃÖ ¾µÖ׌ŸÖ ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛêú
¾µÖ׌ŸÖ Ûêú ¿ÖÖÃÖ®Ö-ÛúÖ»Ö ´Öë »ÖÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ®Öê ˆ®Æëü ”ûÖê›ÍüÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü µÖÆü †ÃÖŸµÖ ÆüÖê, ŸÖÖê
†Ö¯ÖÛúÖ •ÖæŸÖÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ×ÃÖ¸ü… ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ Ûêú ×®ÖÞÖÔµÖ ÛúÖê ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖ®ÖëÝÖê? ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
245
†Ö¯Ö †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ Ûêú ×®ÖÞÖÔµÖ ÛúÖê ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖ®ÖëÝÖê †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ˆ¢Öê×•ÖŸÖ ÆüÖëÝÖê, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÛêú
²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö Ûêú †ÖÝÖê ŸÖÖê ´Öï ¤üß®Ö, Æüß®Ö, ¤ãü²ÖÔ»Ö ¾µÖ׌ŸÖ ÆæÑü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ²ÖΕÖê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : †Ö¯Ö ×ÛúÃÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ´ÖŸÖ »Ößו֋… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖ¸ü-²ÖÖ¸ü ŒµÖÖë ˆšü •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖë ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Æîü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
†Ö¯Ö ´ÖŸÖ ÃÖ´Ö×ôÖ‹… ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. •Ö²Ö Ûú¸ü ÝÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ›ü¸ü ®ÖÆüà… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ²ÖΕÖê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ ×Ûú ÛúÖê‡Ô ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ¤êü×ÜÖ‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : µÖÆü ˆ®®ÖÖ¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö Æü´ÖÛúÖê ›ü¸üÖÛú¸ü “Öã¯Ö Ûú¸üÖ ¤ëüÝÖê… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. µÖÆü
ˆ®®ÖÖ¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü, •ÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö “Ö»Öê… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ²ÖΕÖê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, µÖÆü ¯Öæ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ®ÖêŸÖÖ
ŒµÖÖë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖêÝÖÖ? ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ×´ÖÙü¸ü ¯ÖÖšüÛú… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. Nothing will go on record. ¤êü×ÜÖ‹
†Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ×ÃÖ±Ôú †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü •Öß ²ÖÖê»ÖëÝÖê, †Öî¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»ÖêÝÖÖ… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
Nothing will go on record except...(Interruptions)... Please follow the
decorum. The whole world is watching us. ¯»Öß•Ö †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹… You are all
senior Members. What are you doing? People are watching you.
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê Æüß ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ÃÖŸµÖ Ûú™ãü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ¯ÖÖšüÛú •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ‡Ó™Òü¯™ü ®Ö Ûú¸ëü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê Æüß ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ÃÖŸµÖ Ûú™ãü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü Ûú™ãü ÃÖŸµÖ ÛúÞÖÔ-ׯÖϵÖ
ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ… ´Öï ‡ÃÖ ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ ²ÖÆüÃÖ ÛúÖê œüß»ÖÖœüÖ»ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… ´Öï ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú
×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ, •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö •Öß Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü £Öê †Öî¸ü •ÖîÃÖÖ Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö
•Öß ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü £Öê ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æãü‹, ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ, ŸÖÖê ´Öï †²Ö ¾ÖÆü ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú
ÛúÖî®ÖÃÖÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ, ®ÖÆüà ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß ˆ¢Öê•Ö®ÖÖ †Ö •ÖÖ‹ÝÖß, ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ Ûêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
246
‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö, ¤ãüºþ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö… ´Öï µÖÆü †•ÖÔ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ Ûêú
×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Æüß ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö, ²Ö×»Ûú ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖîןÖÛú ¯ÖÏן֫ÓüפüµÖÖë Ûêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü ³Öß Æãü†Ö… “Ö×»Ö‹,
†Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ®Ö »Öë, ŸÖÖê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®Öê ×ÛúµÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®Öê, ˆÃÖ
´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûêú ®ÖêŸÖéŸ¾Ö ´Öë •ÖÖê ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü £Öß, ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ…
†²Ö ˆ®ÖÛúÖê •ÖÖê ¯Öß›ÍüÖ Æãü‡Ô, ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ “Ö»ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ÆÖêÝÖÖ? ´ÖãôÖê µÖÖ¤ü Æî,
•Ö²Ö ÃÖÓµÖãŒŸÖ †×¬Ö¾Öê¿Ö®Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓµÖãŒŸÖ †×¬Ö¾Öê¿Ö®Ö ´Öë ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê ³Öß ¯ÖÖê™üÖ
Ûêú ¯ÖõÖ ´Öë ´ÖŸÖ¤üÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë, ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×¾Ö®Ö´ÖÏŸÖÖ ÃÖê †•ÖÔ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ
“ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú †²Ö ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Öß Æïü, ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ³Öß ˆÃÖß ¯ÖÖê™üÖ
Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ²ÖÓ¤üß ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹… ‡ÃÖ ‘Ö¸ü ÛúÖê †ÖÝÖ »ÖÝÖ ÝÖ‡Ô ‘Ö¸ü Ûêú דָüÖÝÖ ÃÖê… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ²Ö®ÖÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ¯ÖÖê™üÖ
Ûêú ׿ÖÛúÖ¸ü ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß “Ö»Ö ÝÖµÖÖ… ŸÖÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‹Ûú
×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà “Ö»ÖÖ Æîü, ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖîןÖÛú ×¾Ö¸üÖê׬ֵÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß “Ö»ÖÖ Æîü…
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)
DR. V. MAITREYAN: Now that he has raised this subject, I will have to
answer. He says that it is a misuse. (Interruptions) I say it is not a
misuse. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Dr. Maitreyan, please sit down.
(Interruptions) No, nobody has a right to interrupt like this.
(Interruptions)
DR. V. MAITREYAN: But, Sir, he cannot quote wrongly. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. Our rules do not permit
to intervene like this when a Member is speaking. (Interruptions)
DR. V. MAITREYAN: But he cannot mislead the House. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not for you to...(Interruptions)
DR. V. MAITREYAN: But I have to defend my party. You cannot
defend my party. (Interruptions)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
247
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Then, you must first seek permission from
the Chair. (Interruptions) It is not like that you just stand up and start
speaking whatever you want to. (Interruptions)
DR. V. MAITREYAN: I have the liberty. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please don't assume that you are at liberty.
(Interruptions) You must first seek permission from the Chair.
(Interruptions)
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ´Öï Ûú³Öß-Ûú³Öß ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, ŸÖÖê ÛúÖê»ÖÖÆü»Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÆü
´Öî¡ÖÓêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ŸÖÖê ´Öê¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Æïü…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ®ÖÖ´Ö Æüß ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö Æîü…
4‹±ú/›üß‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê
4F/5.25/DS-VP ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): ‹êÃÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ×Ûú ŸÖã´ÖÃÖê ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß, •Ö•²ÖÖŸÖ ´Öë ¯ÖÆü»Öê-ÃÖß ×¿Ö§üŸÖ
®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß… ‹êÃÖß ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡ÃÖ ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ´Öë ¾ÖÆü
׿֧üŸÖ ®ÖÆüà •ÖÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÆüÖêŸÖß £Öß… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ´Öï µÖÆü ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆü
¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú µÖæ•Ö Æãü†Ö µÖÖ ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö Æãü†Ö… ´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ‹Ûú ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ ®Öê -- ¾ÖÖµÖÛúÖê
ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ¯ÖÖò×»Ö×™üÛú»Ö †Ö¤ü´Öß Æïü, ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü †Ö¯Ö®Öê †“”ûÖ µÖæ•Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ… †Ö¯Ö •Ö²Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü--
†Ö•ÖÛú»Öü †Ö¯ÖÛêú ÃÖÖ£Ö Æï-- ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ¸üÖ™Òü¾ÖÖ¤üß Æïü, †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… »Öê×Ûú®Ö ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ´Öë ¾ÖÆü ³Öß
²ÖÓ¤ü Æãü‹ †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú ¾ÖÖê™ü¸ü Æüß £Öê… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ³Öß ‹Ûú ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖßןÖÛú ÛúÖµÖÔÛú¢ÖÖÔ, •ÖÖê
†Ö•Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔÛú Æïü, Ûú»Ö ŸÖÛú ¾ÖÆü ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ¸üÖ™ÒüßµÖ †¬µÖõÖ Ûêú ¯ÖÏÖê™üß•Ö £Öê,
¾ÖÆü ³Öß ²ÖÓ¤ü Æãü‹… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö Æãü†Ö, ˆÃÖ´Öë ´Öï µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¤üÙ³ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü
×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ‹Ûú Œ»ÖÖˆ•ÖÌ Æîü "Notwithstanding anything contained in the Code,
no person accused of an offence punishable under chapters IV and VI of
this Act shall, if in custody, be released on bail or on his own bond
unless the Public Prosecutor has been given an opportunity of being
heard on the application for such release:" µÖÆü 437 Æîü, "Provided that
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
248
such accused person shall not be released on bail or on his own bond if
the Court, on a perusal of the case diary or the report made under
section 173 of the Code is of the opinion that there are reasonable
grounds for believing that the accusation against such a person is prima
facie true." †²Ö ‡ÃÖÛêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬ÖÖ³ÖÖÃÖ Æîü ´ÖÖ®µÖ¾Ö¸ü… ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬ÖÖ³ÖÖÃÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú ¯Öê•Ö 6
¯Ö¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ×»ÖÜÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú "The failure to furnish the information called for under
sub-section 1, or, deliberately furnishing false information shall be
punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three
years or with fine or with both." "Notwithstanding anything contained in
the Code, an offence under sub-section 2 shall be tried as a summary
case and the procedure prescribed in Chapter XXI of the said Code
(except sub-section 2 of section 262) shall be applicable thereto."ŸÖß®Ö ÃÖÖ»Ö
ÛúÖ †Ö±ëúÃÖ Æîü… 30 ÃÖÖ»Ö ÛúÖ ÆüÖê µÖÖ ˆ´ÖÏ Ûîú¤ü ÛúÖ ÆüÖê, ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ¯Ö×®Ö¿Ö´Öë™ü ‹Ûú-ÃÖÖ Æîü…
´Öï®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖÓÝÖÖ Æîü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÝÖéÆü ¸üÖ•µÖ ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü Ûúß ¬ÖÖ¸üÖ†Öë ÛúÖ,
¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö ÆüÖê®Öê Ûúß ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ‹Ñ Æãü‡Ô Æïü… ´Öï ×ÛúÃÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖßןÖóÖ ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ…
µÖÆüÖÑ ²Ö›ÍüÖ ÛúÖê»ÖÖÆü»Ö ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… µÖÆü ×ÛúÃÖß †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß «üÖ¸üÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… Ûú»Ö ÛúÖê ×±ú¸ü ‹êÃÖß
×ãÖ×ŸÖ ®Ö ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ Æü´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÖê±úÝÖÖ›Ôü »Öê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¾ÖÖ´Ö¯ÖÓ£Öß ÃÖÖ×£ÖµÖÖë ®Öê •ÖÖê †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü
×ÛúµÖê Æïü, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖ ´Öê¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ˆ®ÖÆüÖë®Öê •ÖÖê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖê ´Öï ¤êüÜÖ
»ÖæÑÝÖÖ… ´Öï®Öê ˆ®ÖÛêú ¾ÖŒŸÖ¾µÖ ÛúÖê ÃÖã®ÖÖ, ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü ‡®Ö †´Öë›ü´Öë™ËüÃÖ ÃÖê ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †×¬ÖÛú
†ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü ÃÖê »Ö›ÍüÖ‡Ô ´Öë ›üÖµÖ»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖÖ ŸÖÖê ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü »Öê®Öê Ûúß †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ
Æîü… Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ †Ö•Ö Ûúß ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö׸ü×ãÖ×ŸÖ ´Öë -- †Ö•Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÖ×£ÖµÖÖë ®Öê ˆ¢Öê•Ö®ÖÖ ´Öë µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ³Öß
ÛúÆüß, Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ ÁÖß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖµÖÖ… Ûú»Ö ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûêú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë--
´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß µÖÆüÖÑ ˆ¯Ö×Ã£ÖŸÖ Æïü--ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú Æü´Öë ¿ÖÆüߤüÖë ÛúÖ †¯Ö´ÖÖ®Ö ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ
“ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ±úÖêÃÖÔ ´Öë •ÖÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ×›ü´ÖÖê»ÖÖÔ‡•Ö ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ´Öï ˆ®ÖÛúß
‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖê ײֻÛãú»Ö ÃÖÆü´ÖŸÖ ÆòüæÓ †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ¤ü³ÖÔ ´Öë ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²ÖÖ™ü»ÖÖ ÛúÖÓ›ü ´Öë ¿ÖÆüߤü Æãü‹ ÁÖß
‹´Ö0ÃÖß0 ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ×»ÖµÖÖ… Ûú»Ö †¯Ö®Öê ¾ÖŒŸÖ¾µÖ ´Öë--¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÛúÖ»Ö ´Öë ×»ÖµÖÖ… ´Öï †Ö•Ö ‡ÃÖ
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
249
ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æãü‹ ïÖ™ü Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ´Öï®Öê Ûú³Öß
ÃÖã²ÖÆüÖ µÖÖ ÃÖÓ¤êüÆü ¯Öî¤üÖ ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ… ¾ÖÆü ›ü¶æ™üß ¯Ö¸ü ÝÖµÖê †Öî¸ü ›ü¶æ™üß ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖê ³Öß ¾µÖ׌ŸÖ †¯Ö®ÖÖ
ÛúÖ´Ö Ûú¸üŸÖê Æãü‹ ¿ÖÆüߤü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ¿ÖÆüߤü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ®Ö ŸÖÖê Ûú³Öß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê
‡ÃÖ †Ö¿ÖµÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖ¾ÖÔ•Ö×®ÖÛú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö-ד֮Æü Æîü… ×ÃÖ×¾Ö»Ö
×»Ö²Ö™üá ÝÖÏã¯Ö,ü ²Ö›Íêü-²Ö›Íêü †ÜÖ²ÖÖ¸üÖë †Öî¸ü ®µÖæ•Ö “Öî®Ö»ÃÖ ®Öê ˆÃÖ ‹®ÖÛúÖˆÓ™ü¸ü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ‹Ûú ÃÖÓ¤êüÆü
¯ÖÏÛú™ü ×ÛúµÖÖ… Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ®Öê µÖÆü ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ‹®ÖÛúÖˆÓ™ü¸ü ÃÖÆüß Æîü µÖÖ ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ Æîü… ´Öï
†Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö•Ö Ã¯Ö™ü Ûú¸ü ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü… Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ®Öê µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú
ˆÃÖÛúß •ÖÖÓ“Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹ ŸÖÖ×Ûú ‹Ûú ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü̧ ü •ÖÖê ‹Ûú †Ö¿ÖÓÛúÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ×®Ö´ÖæÔ»Ö ×ÃÖ¨ü ÆüÖê…
²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë, ´Öã´²Ö‡Ô Ûúß ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ ´Öë, •ÖÖê ×Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ²Ö›Íüß ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ Æãü‡Ô †Öî¸ü וÖÃÖ ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ ´Öë ÃÖïÛú›ÍüÖë ×®Ö¤üÖìÂÖ
»ÖÖêÝÖ ´ÖÖ¸êü ÝÖ‹ †Öî¸ü ‹Ûú ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü †ÖÛÎú´ÖÞÖ Æãü†Ö, Ûú¸üÛú¸êü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûúß ´ÖÖîŸÖ Æãü‡Ô… ´Öï †¯Ö®Öê
³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ÃÖÖ×£ÖµÖÖë ÃÖê ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Ûú¸üÛú¸êü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûúß ´Ö韵Öã ÃÖê ¤üÖê פü®Ö
¯ÖÆü»Öê "´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü" ÛúÖ †ÖžÖÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ…
(4•Öß/‹Ûêú‹ ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)
Aka-PB/4g/5:30
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : †Öî¸ü ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü ÛúÖ †ÖžÖÖ®Ö ‡ÃÖ †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú
Ûú¸üÛú¸êü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ×Æü®¤æü ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Öß Æïü †Öî¸ü Ûú¸üÛú¸êü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ®ÖêŸÖéŸ¾Ö ´Öë ÃÖÖ¬¾Öß ¯ÖÏóÖÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ
ÃÖß0›üß0 פüÜÖÖ‡Ô ÝÖ‡Ô †Öî¸ü •Ö²Ö ¾Öê ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü £Öà ŸÖÖê ˆ®ÖÛêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ ¾µÖ¾ÖÆüÖ¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü
‡ÃÖÛêú ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö ´Öë ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : Please yield for a minute.
ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï †Ö•Ö ¤üÖê¯ÖÆü¸ü ÛúÖê zero hour ´Öë ³Öß µÖÆüß ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ˆšüÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ´Öï
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“Öî®Ö»Ö Æîü - ®µÖæ•ÖÌ ¾Ö®Ö, ˆÃÖ ®µÖæ•ÖÌ ¾Ö®Ö “Öî®Ö»Ö ´Öë ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏÖêÝÖÏÖ´Ö †Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ ¯ÖÏÖêÝÖÏÖ´Ö ´Öë
‹Ûú Defence Analyst ÛúÖê ײ֚üÖµÖÖ Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ… ®µÖæ•ÖÌ ¾Ö®Ö “Öî®Ö»Ö Ûêú ˆÃÖ ¯ÖÏÖêÝÖÏÖ´Ö ´Öë ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÁÖß
•Öêšü´Ö»ÖÖ®Öß •Öß ÛúÖê פüÜÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ ×Ûú µÖÆü ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü
†Öî¸ü ÜÖÖÃÖÛú¸ü jews ÛúÖê ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, Jews ÛúÖê ´ÖÖ¸ü®Öê ÃÖê ˆÃÖÛêú consequences
ŒµÖÖ Æïü, ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú •ÖÖê 9 »ÖÖêÝÖ ´ÖÖ¸êü ÝÖ‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
250
10¾ÖÖÓ ¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, •ÖÖê †³Öß •Öê»Ö ´Öë Æîü, ˆÃÖ®Öê ÆüÖ£Ö ´Öë Saffron band ²ÖÖÓ¬Ö ¸üÜÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü
×Æü®¤æü Æîü, ´ÖãÃÖ»Ö´ÖÖ®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ bandü ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖÓ¬ÖŸÖê… ´Öï ¤êüÜÖ ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú Ûú»Ö †®ŸÖã»Öê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ˆÃÖß
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Æïü, µÖÆü ¤ãü³ÖÖÔÝµÖ Æîü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ‹êÃÖß ŸÖÖÛúŸÖë •ÖÖê ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ¿ÖÆüߤüÖë Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : µÖÆü ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö Æîü, Æü´Ö®Öê ŸÖÖê ÛúÆüÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. †Ö¯Ö ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ
ÃÖã×®Ö‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã®Öë… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. וÖÃÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß £Öß,
וÖÃÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ ´ÖÖ¸êü •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü £Öê, ˆÃÖ ¾ÖŒŸÖ ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö “Öî®Ö»Ö ¯ÖÏ“ÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Æü®¤ãüßÖÖ®Ö
Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÜÖ›Íêü ÆüÖêÛú¸ü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : Æü´Ö®Öê µÖÆü ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆüÖ Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
Æü´Ö®Öê µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà •ÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü Ûú¸üÛú¸êü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÛúÖê
‹Ûú פü®Ö ¯ÖÆü»Öê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ‹Ûú פü®Ö ¯ÖÆü»Öê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ŸÖÖê ÃÖã×®Ö‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ Ûêú פü®Ö ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹…
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß, ¤êü×ÜÖ‹ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ‹Ûú ŸÖ¸ü±ú ‹0†Ö¸ü0 †®ŸÖã»Öê ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ŸÖ¸ü±ú ÛúׯֻÖ
×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ŸÖßÃÖ¸üß ŸÖ¸ü±ú †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß, †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ •Ö²Ö ®Ö´²Ö¸ü †Ö‹ÝÖÖ ŸÖ²Ö †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹ÝÖÖ…
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. The people you have talked about ... ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : †®ŸÖã»Öê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öï®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ®ÖÆüà פüµÖÖ Æîü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã×®Ö‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ¾Öß0 Æü®Öã´ÖÓŸÖ ¸üÖ¾Ö : †Ö¯Ö ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖ “Öî®Ö»Ö ŒµÖÖë ¤êüÜÖŸÖê ÆüÖê? ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
251
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ´Öï ÃÖÖ¸üß ¤ãü×®ÖµÖÖ Ûêú “Öî®Ö»ÃÖ ¤êüÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, ¾ÖÆü ´Öê¸üÖ ¸üÖ‡™ü Æîü…
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ´Öï †¯Ö®Öê ÛúÖê educate Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÃÖÖ¸üß ¤ãü×®ÖµÖÖ Ûêú “Öî®Ö»ÃÖ ¤êüÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, ˆÃÖ´Öë
ŒµÖÖ Æîü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß, µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü? ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. You see, we are
diluting the debate. We are diluting the debate. ...(Interruptions)... ×´ÖÙü¸ü
†Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ, †²Ö †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü •Öß ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆêü Æïü, now, it is his point of view; he is
placing it. Allow him to place his point of view.
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, again and again, he is blaming the BJP.
...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You blame him and he blames you.
...(Interruptions)... How can I conduct the Business of the House?
...(Interruptions)... Why are you getting angry? ...(Interruptions)... What is
this? ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Ahluwalia, if he blames the BJP, what is it
that I can do? You have to take it and if you blame him, he has to take it.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, our appeal is, you please conduct this
debate in the orderly fashion.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; no; Members have to cooperate. If we
use the Rules of Procedure, the Members protest. When we use it,
they would protest. When we don't want to use that and appeal to the
Members, they don't cooperate.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: But, Sir, the procedure is very clear. If
you have given the permission to somebody to speak, ...
...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Every Member knows about it, but still they
do it.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
252
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: No; unless Mr. Amar Singh yields, nobody
else can intervene.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is not going on record. But still they
disturb it.
SHRI S.S AHLUWALIA: You tell him to speak on the subject. There are
two Bills. ...(Interruptions)... You speak on the subject. You are a law-
maker. ...(Interruptions)...You are a law-maker. ...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: When I spoke, I spoke on the two Bills.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You spoke on the Bills. He should also speak
on the Bills. Why is he not speaking on the Sections of these Bills?
...(Interruptions)... Let him speak on that. ...(Interruptions)...
(Followed by 4h/MKS)
-AKA/VNK-MKS/4h/5.35
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, you should speak on the Bill.
...(Interruptions)... Why are you addressing it to him? ...(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ. ‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú submission ÃÖã®Ö »Ößו֋, µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ´Öï ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÃÖê
³Öß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, וÖÃÖ ×¤ü®Ö ‡ÃÖÛúß “Ö“ÖÖÔ Æãü‡Ô £Öß ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü discussion ÆüÖêÝÖß, ŸÖ²Ö ´Öï®Öê
ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ³ÖÖ‡Ô Æü´Ö “Ö“ÖÖÔ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü, we are law maker, we have to make
a fruitful law. ˆÃÖê ¯ÖÖÃÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ Æü´Ö legislation ¯Ö¸ü discuss Ûú¸ëüÝÖê… ×ÛúÃÖß ®Öê
ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú ÃÖÖÆü²Ö, ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´Ö»ÖÖ Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).., ‹êÃÖÖ ŒµÖÖë ×ÛúµÖÖ… ´Öï®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú
¤êü×ÜÖ‹, †ÝÖ¸ü ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ŸÖ¸ü±ú •ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… No, no; this is not
allowed. Nothing will go on record. ...(Interruptions)...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
253
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ. ‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : *
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: *
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no; this also will not go on record.
...(Interruptions)... Nothing will go on record. ...(Interruptions)...
†Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is this, Sir? ...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is this, Sir? ...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down.
...(Interruptions)...
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: *
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: *
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry......(Interruptions)... I am sorry
that the Members are taking.......(Interruptions)... µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ.‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ×²Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»Öê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖê»Ö®ÖÖ Æîü, µÖÆü ´Öï ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, †Ö¯Ö rules ²ÖŸÖÖ‡‹
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… I will definitely apply the rules. ....(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ×²Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü Æüß ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… †ÝÖ¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü
¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ experience ²ÖŸÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú µÖÆü ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»Ö®ÖÖ Æîü, µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü
__________________________________________________________
* Not recorded.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
254
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… Everybody has a right to speak.......(Interruptions)... †Ö¯Ö ²Öîךü‹
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… Don't defend him. .......(Interruptions)...
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ.‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß ´Öê¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï yield Ûú¸ü
ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †ÝÖ¸ü ´ÖãôÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú µÖê ¤üÖêßÖß ×®Ö³ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê, ŸÖÖê ´Öï yield ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ… ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ
´Öï µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †²Ö ´Öï ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ÛúÖê Ûú³Öß embarrass ®ÖÆüà Ûú¹ÓýÝÖÖ
..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In this, everybody takes time.
...(Interruptions)... And they are encroaching upon others' time.
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ •Ö»¤üß Æüß ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü…
´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæüÑ ×Ûú ´Öï®Öê ÁÖß †®ŸÖã»Öê •Öß Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖ ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ®Ö Æüß
ÁÖß ¸üÖ´Ö •Öêšü´Ö»ÖÖ®Öß •Öß Ûúß ŸÖ¸üÆü ¯ÖÖ×ÛúßÖÖ®Ö ™üß.¾Öß. ÛúÖê, •ÖîÃÖÖ ¾Öê ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö
פüµÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ Æüß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ¿ÖÆüߤü Ûúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ ÃÖ¤üÖ Ã£ÖÖ‡Ô ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü…
‹Ûú פü®Ö ²ÖÖ¤ü וÖÃÖ ¿ÖÆüߤü Ûúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÛúÖê‡Ô ²Ö›ÍüÖ ®ÖêŸÖÖ ‹Ûú Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ¹ý¯Ö‹ ÛúÖ ¯Öã¸üÃÛúÖ¸ü
¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖß ¿ÖÆüߤü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ˆÃÖÛêú •Öß¾Ö®Ö ÛúÖ»Ö ´Öë ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ¸üÖ ¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü, ´Öï µÖÆüß
ײ֮¤ãü ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ ÝÖÓ³Ö߸ü ´ÖÃÖ»Öê Ûúß “Ö“ÖÖÔ Ûúß ºþ¯Ö¸êüÜÖÖ ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß
®Öê ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖÖ¸üÝÖÙ³ÖŸÖ ¾µÖÖܵÖÖ®Ö ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ×²Ö»Ö ÛúÖ ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö
Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö-ÃÖÖ£Ö ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûúß ³Öß Ø“ÖŸÖÖ ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô †Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûúß ¾µÖÝÖÏŸÖÖ ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô ×Ûú
‡ÃÖÛúÖ ÁÖêµÖ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ‹®Ö›üß‹ ÛúÖê ×´Ö»Öê †Öî¸ü µÖæ¯Öß‹ discredit ÆüÖê…
´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ´ÖîÓ ÃÖÖœÍêü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ŸÖÛú ²Ö›Íüß ²Öã¸üß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê
µÖæ¯Öß‹ ÃÖê »Ö›ÍüŸÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, ˆ®ÖÃÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ÛúÖê‡Ô ×´Ö¡ÖŸÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß †Öî¸ü †Ö•Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ÜÖ›Íêü
ÆüÖêÛú¸ü ÁÖß †®ŸÖã»Öê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öê¸üÖ ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö •ÖÖê›Íü פüµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, •Ö²Ö ×Ûú ´Öï®Öê ‹êÃÖÖ
Ûãú”û ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö †²Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, ²Ö×»Ûú ´Öï®Öê Ûú»Ö ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß «üÖ¸üÖ ×¤ü‹ ÝÖ‹
²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü, וÖÃÖ´Öë ÁÖß ‹´Ö.ÃÖß. ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ •Öß ÛúÖ ×•ÖÛÎú ‡ÃÖß †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü Ûêú ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûêú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë ×ÛúµÖÖ
£ÖÖ, ˆÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´Öï®Öê ‡ÃÖ ´ÖÓ“Ö ÛúÖê †¯Ö®Öê ïÖ™üßÛú¸üÞÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃŸÖê´ÖÖ»Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü,
ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÛúÖ µÖÆü ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö £ÖÖ ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ±úÖêÃÖÔ ÛúÖê demoralise ´ÖŸÖ Ûúßו֋…
Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ³Öß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ÃÖê †ÖÝÖÏÆü Æîü, ¯µÖÖ¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß ÃÖê ³Öß †ÖÝÖÏÆü Æîü ×Ûú
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Ûú³Öß-Ûú³Öß Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ´Ö滵ÖÖÓÛú®Ö ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, •ÖîÃÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ´Ö滵ÖÖÓÛú®Ö Ûú¸üÛú¸êü Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ
ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü ÛúÖ †ÖžÖÖ®Ö Ûú¸ü פüµÖÖ… ¤üÖê פü®Ö ²ÖÖ¤ü ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖÖ ×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÛêú
Æüß ®ÖêŸÖÖ ‹Ûú Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¤êü®Öê ¯ÖÆãÓü“Ö ÝÖ‹… ˆÃÖß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ³Öß ´Ö滵ÖÖÓÛú®Ö
ÁÖß ‹´Ö.ÃÖß. ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ ÆüÖê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…
´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú "¾ÖÖê •ÖÜ´Ö ´ÖãôÖê µÖÖ¤ü †Ö®Öê »ÖÝÖê Æïü, ו֮Æëü Æü´Öë ³Öã»ÖÖ®Öê
´Öë •Ö´ÖÖ®Öê »ÖÝÖê Æïü", ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ †Ö¯Ö õÖÖ»ÖÛúÖê™ü ÛúÖê µÖÖ¤ü ´ÖŸÖ Ûúßו֋, †²Ö †Ö¯Ö ×Æü®¤ãüßÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖê
µÖÖ¤ü Ûúßו֋ †Öî¸ü ×Æü®¤ãüßÖÖ®Ö Ûúß ×Æü®¤ãüßÖÖ®ÖßµÖŸÖ ÛúÖê µÖÖ¤ü Ûúßו֋… •Ö²Ö Æü´Ö ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ
Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ŸÖÖê •Ö²Ö ÁÖß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö †Öî¸ü ÛúÖÓÝÖÏêÃÖ Ûêú ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖêŸÖÖ†Öë ®Öê judicial probe Ûúß
´ÖÖÓÝÖ Ûúß, “ÖæÓ×Ûú ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ “Öã®ÖÖ¾Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ÛúÖÓÝÖÏêÃÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ²Ö›ÍüÖ ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö †ÖµÖÖ,
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ÃÖÖê×®ÖµÖÖ ÝÖÖÓ¬Öß Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö †ÖµÖÖ, ¯ÖϬÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß ›üÖ. ´Ö®Ö´ÖÖêÆü®Ö ØÃÖÆü Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö
†ÖµÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê judicial probe Ûúß ´ÖÖÓÝÖ ÛúÖê þÖßÛúÖ¸ü ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ… ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú
Æü´Ö †¯Ö®Öß ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ±úÖêÃÖÔ ÛúÖê demoralise ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê®Öê ¤ëüÝÖê, ו֮ÆüÖë®Öê µÖÆü ÛúÖ´Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, Æü´Ö
ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö ¤ëüÝÖê… µÖפü judicial probe ÛúÖ †Ö¤êü¿Ö ¤êü פüµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü populist
move ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… (4i/MP ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
MP/4J/5.40 ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ŸÖÖê †ÝÖ¸ü µÖæ.¯Öß.‹. Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü, ÛúÖÓÝÖÏêÃÖ Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü †ÝÖ¸ü ¯ÖÖò¯Öã×»ÖÙü
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‡Ó¬Ö®Ö •Ö»ÖÖÛú¸ü, ¯Öæ¸üß Ûúß ¯Öæ¸üß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ †Öî¸ü ×¾ÖóÖÖ¯Ö®Ö ... •Ö²Ö †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö ¯Öæ¸üÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ,
•Ö²Ö †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ŸÖÖê †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö Ûêú “Ö»ÖŸÖê Æãü‹, ÝÖÖê×»ÖµÖÖë Ûúß ŸÖ›ÍüŸÖ›ÍüÖÆü™ü Ûêú ²Öß“Ö
²Ö›Íê-²Ö›Íêü ×¾ÖóÖÖ¯Ö®Ö ....õÖ´ÖÖ Ûúßו֋ÝÖÖ, ×¾Ö®ÖµÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÛúÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, †Ö¯ÖÛúß ŸÖ¸ü±ú ÃÖê ×®ÖÛúÖ»Öê ÝÖ‹
†Öî¸ü †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü ÛúÖê ¯Ö¸üÖêÃÖÛú¸ü ´ÖŸÖ¤üÖŸÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ¤êü®Öê Ûúß †Ö¯ÖÛúß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ˆÃÖÛúÖê ®ÖÛúÖ¸ü ¤üß
ÝÖ‡Ô… ´ÖÖ®µÖ¾Ö¸ü, µÖÆü ÛúÖê‡Ô ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ײֻÛãú»Ö embarrass ®ÖÆüà ÛúºÓþÝÖÖ…
´Öï ×±ú¸üÛúÖ¯Ö¸üßÖß †Öî¸ü ÃÖÓ¯ÖϤüÖµÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë •Öã›Íü®Öê ÃÖê †“”ûÖ ´Ö¸ü •ÖÖ®ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖæÓÝÖÖ…
"¸üÖê¿Ö®Öß Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ‘Ö¸ü •Ö»ÖÖ®ÖÖ ¯Ö›ÍüÖ,
ÛîúÃÖß •ÖÌå»´ÖŸÖ ²ÖœÍüß, ŸÖê¸êü •ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü…
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¤üÖêßÖÖë ÛúÖ ÜÖã»ÖæÃÖ †Ö•Ö´ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü…"
Ûãú”û ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ : ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü ! ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÜÖæ²Ö !
ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®Öê †ÖµÖÖ ÆæÓü... ´Öï®Öê •Ö̺þ¸ü µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß Æîü - ÛúׯֻÖ
×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö •Öß Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ×Ûú µÖÆü ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü †Öî¸ü ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ´Öë ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê ´Öãܵ֟Ö: Æü´ÖêÓ •ÖÖê
×¾ÖßÖÖ¸ü ÃÖê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ׸üµÖÖë Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖõÖ ×¤üµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ •ÖÖê ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö Æîü, ¾ÖÆü
admissible ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü †®µÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖµÖ £Öê, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ïÖ™ü Ûú¸üŸÖê Æãü‹ ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÛúÆüÖ
£ÖÖ ×Ûú ‡®Ö ÃÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÓ¿ÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¬µÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ…
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“ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü - ´ÖÖî»ÖÖ®ÖÖ ´ÖÃÖæ¤ü †•ÖÆü¸ü Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ³Öß £ÖÖ, •Öê»Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ³Öß £Öê, ¾ÖŸÖÔ´ÖÖ®Ö
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¬Ö•ÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¤ãü¿´Ö®Ö ÛúÖê ¯Öê¿Ö ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ ! ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ²Ö›Íüß ²ÖÖŸÖ ŸÖÖê µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú "My country, my
life" ‹Ûú ¯ÖãßÖÛú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ¯ÖÏן֯ÖõÖ Ûêú ®ÖêŸÖÖ ®Öê ×»ÖÜÖß Æîü, ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü
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Æîü ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ¹ýÛú®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü…
(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND MINISTER OF
EARTH SCIENCES (SHRI KAPIL SIBAL): Sir, the hon. Member, Shri
Amar Singh, has mentioned my name in respect of a particular incident
in the Batala House. He said that I had made a public statement. I just
want to put the record straight that I went there; I saw what had
happened; reported it back to my leaders. But I never made any
statement in the Press at any point of time since then. Anything
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
259
attributed to me in respect of any statement that I made is completely
wrong because I have never made such a statement.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, the amendments that we have
submitted have not been circulated. Let these amendments be
circulated.
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(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL
POLICY AND PROMOTION, MINISTRY OF COMMERCE AND
INDUSTRY (SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR): Mr, Deputy Chairman, Sir, thank
you for giving me this opportunity to intervene in this debate which, I
believe, is critical for more reasons than one. Sir, I am mindful of the
fact that this debate is taking place in the wake of unprecedented
onslaught on the integrity of the Indian State. This debate is taking
place in view of the national resolve to present a united country in our
fight against terror. It is for this reason that I would seek to make my
comments in a manner that unites this House, to take on the challenge
of terror, rather than to indulge in any divisive polemics. We are not
here today to make points against each another, nor is the people's
court a court of law where the debate should regress or recede into
legalese. This is a debate which the nation is watching, watching us
deliver on the promise of a unified resolve against the terrorist onslaught
on the conscience of this country.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
262
With this caveat, I rise not only to support the Bill but also to
thank the entire Opposition for supporting the measure in principle. I
know that there are large areas of agony, both as to the content of the
Bill as well as the intention behind it. Here, I would say, Sir, the glory of
this nation, as a united country, had been brought forth in this debate in
the Lok Sabha, and I would hasten to add that we expect the same
unity of purpose in the Upper House. I never knew in 1977, when I
wrote my doctoral dissertation on 'Legal Control of International
Terrorism" that some day as lawmaker in this House, I would need to
take part in this debate.
(Continued by 4M)
TDB/4M/5.55
SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD.): But, I am indeed fortunate to be
able to include in my comments some of the lessons that I learnt at that
time, in my study of terrorism, as a student, and some of the lessons
that I learnt, as a public man coming from Punjab, which had witnessed
terrorism for long years. Sir, my first lesson that I learnt as a student in
the study of terrorism was that the terrorist is outside the system of law.
He is outside the system or establishment that he seeks to demolish
through acts of terror, and, therefore, he owes no apology to any law.
No law in the world can prevent terrorism. This legislation that has been
brought before us, Sir, the two Bills, are punitive in nature, they are not
preventive in nature. The sole purpose of these two Bills is to ensure
that after the terrorist act is committed, a resolute nation with a devoted
investigative and prosecutorial agency will bring to justice those who
have perpetrated crimes against mankind.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
263
The second lesson, Sir, that I learnt as a public man from Punjab
was that oppressive laws or stringent laws which are oppressively
implemented can never eliminate terrorism. They only give rise to
terrorism. Mr. Jaitley, in his comments stated that some amount of
alienation of the local populace is inevitable, when you apply strong
laws. I dispute that contention. The moment you start from the premise
that you are permitted to alienate a populace or a section of people in
your quest to apply stringent laws, howsoever unfairly, you lose the
battle against terrorism.
(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN, PROF. P.J. KURIEN, IN THE CHAIR)
Terrorism has always been a function of perception that injustice has
been caused or that justice is not being rendered. And, as long as that
perception holds the field, as long as a significant number of people feel
that terrorism is sought to be fought through State terrorism, we will
only lose the battle against terror, and it is for this reason, Mr. Vice-
Chairman, Sir, that our version of the Bill takes care of the Constitutional
conscience of the country, it takes care of the sensivities of the
Republic, as far as human rights are concerned, as far as our
irrevocable commitment to protecting the dignity and rights of innocent
citizens is concerned, that we have introduced in the Bills some
provisions that will ensure that certain stringent provisions which are
necessary in view of the fact that we are seeking to remedy an
extraordinary mischief, that is a war against the nation, are not abused
or indeed the abuse is minimised.
Sir, there is a third lesson that I learnt and that is a lesson I learnt
as a lawyer that the fact that a particular provision of the law can be
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
264
abused or misused can never be an argument to deny its utility or
necessity. There is yet to be a law, civil or criminal, which has not been
abused or misused sometime or the other. No amount of human
ingenuity can anticipate all situations that the law seeks to address. It is
a trite saying in law which we often use that life is larger than law. At
the end of the day, no law can ever be a guarantee of total peace, of
total fairness, of total justice. As somebody has said, 'aspiration of a
perfect law is seeking a legal utopia, which is an impossibility'.
Therefore, what is it that we must aim, Sir? And it is on that touchstone
that I would commend this House to measure the utility or the
constitutionality or the legality or the purposiveness of these two Bills.
The law must be certain; it must not be ambiguous; it should not be
retroactive and it should not shift the presumption of innocence from the
accused.
(Contd. by 4n-kgg)
kgg/4n/6.00
SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (Contd.): These are the four pillars of criminal
jurisprudence in this country which have been hallowed and sanctified
over as many years as I can recall. On all these four basic grounds,
both the Bills, in my respectful submission satisfy the test of
reasonableness, of fairness, of constitutionality and of effectiveness. For
any law to serve its purpose, it need not be oppressive, but it must be
effective. That is why we say, give teeth to the law; that is why we say,
bring in meaningful legislation in view of the end purposes that the law
seeks to serve, or that we want the law to sub-serve.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
265
What is the end purpose that we want our law to sub-serve? The
end purpose is, terrorism, sponsored from across the border, acts of
international terrorism that are creeping into our borders need to be
fought, need to be checked and once they are committed, unfortunately
---God forbid--if they are committed, the perpetrators of those acts have
to be brought to justice; justice not by the lamp-post, justice according
to law; because, rule of the law is what distinguishes a civilised nation, a
civilised society, a civilised people from those we seek to fight.
Sir, it is very easy to fall into the prey, as was suggested by my
friend on the other side, that a confessional statement to a police officer
should be used. We all know how these statements are recorded; we all
know that nine out of ten times, or at least eight out of ten times, it is
the innocent people against whom these terrorists are used. So, let us
not go in for or plead for a knee-jerk reaction. It is time for reflection, it
is time for deliberation, it is time for resolve, it is time for sensitivity, and
it is time for a united nation to speak in one voice. It is true that the
people of this country are watching this on the television and will read
tomorrow in the press. They will pass harsh judgment on us, Sir, if we
fail to deliver now. If we fail to pass the muster at least on the issue of
terror, this nation will not forgive us. The biggest glory of this country is
that the representatives of the people, who adorn the chairs in this
House, who are the pride of this nation, are expected to show unity---
and I am sure, I am proud that so far they have shown a united
determination in fighting terror. There could be a difference in
perspective, there could be a difference in emphasis. It is only to be
expected.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
266
Some of the points made by my colleagues on the other side are
well taken. I for one have always felt that it is better to read into the law
certain safeguards than to invent them later on. But, having said that,
Sir, as a lawyer I can tell you, it is also true that every Bill that we pass,
every legislation that is put on the Statute Book, is nothing more than
the skeleton of the law. This skeleton is eventually clothed and roped by
adjudication by courts. And, the courts make sure that constitutional
safeguards, principles of natural justice that ensures substantive justice,
the procedural due process requirements, are in fact read into the law
we make. There is, ultimately, a power of judicial review with the
superior courts. Even this law can be struck down if it fails to pass the
test of judicial scrutiny. So, I would hasten to add, Sir, that all legislative
provisions that we have made, and I would refer to only two or three
which are intended to make the law effective, are provisions of 43(a),
which talk about power of arrest and detention in the Unlawful Activities
Prevention Act, 43(d) that talk of stringent bail provisions, 43(e) that talk
of presumption of guilt. I would like to make a point here, Sir. It is a
cardinal rule of jurisprudence that a person is presumed to be innocent
until proved to be guilty. I do not think that that has been reversed. All it
says is that if a person is found with a weapon of destruction in his
possession, the onus would shift temporarily, for that limited purpose,
upon him to prove that that cannot lead to an inference of guilt against
him. In criminal jurisprudence, the onus of proving the guilt of the
accused is invariably, and always, on the prosecution. That principle has
not been negatived in this Bill.
(Contd. by kls/4o)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
267
Kls/40-6.05
SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD): So, I would like to add that there is
no reason for apprehension on that score. It is a case of like stolen
goods, if stolen goods are found in somebody's possession, it is for him
to prove or establish how these goods came into his or her possession
in the first place. Therefore, Sir, this law does nothing more than that
and does not, I repeat, does not tinker with the cardinal rule of
jurisprudence which is an elementary rule and rightly so placed since
Macalay's time. Sir, the second point that was made was about bail
provisions. Now, we had made the provisions stricter. We have said
you will not get bail until the Public Prosecutor is put on notice because
sometimes through misrepresentation or half-baked representation you
can get the adjudicatory authority to release you on bail and when it
comes to apprehending a terrorist, you have to have double caution, you
cannot let a terrorist go on a legal nicety only to go and commit another
terrorist strike. So, on all force I hasten to submit this law passes the
test of constitutionality. Sir, I would like to make two more points and
then I am done. Sir, as far as the integral and internal morality of this
law is concerned, nobody has any doubt, not in this House, not in the
Lok Sabha and not in the country. We all know that we require an
action in response not only to Mumbai but an action in response to
international terrorism, which has now been identified as one of seven
gravest challenges for the civilised order in the 21st Century. It is for that
reason that the UN Security Resolution mandated countries to support
that international endeavour through domestic legislation. Sir, let me
divert for one minute, till eighties, nineties, the debate in the United
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
268
Nations always used to be divided between two points of view. One
point of view said, might your terrorists may be my freedom fighters, I
am not prepared to accept your measures and your yardsticks on him
and the other side would say that an amount, or no end or no purpose
can justify killing of terrorist people. Then the reply would come, for
example, that in Israel, they are no innocent tourists, anyone who goes
to Israel must suffer the fate, that used to be argument. Fortunately, for
us today, Sir, after 9/11 that debate has changed. The idiom of
discourse on terrorism has undergone a paradigm shift. It is now an
accepted truth and accepted reality, and received truth that no end can
justify terror. Therefore, Sir, today having being victims of terror across
the border, from all kinds of places, we as a nation have resolved that
we will not fail our country, that we will not regress in any lethargy, that
there would be no laxity found, and this is just one of the responses
because as I stated in my opening, terrorism, I agree, as Mr. Sitram
Yechury said, cannot be fought by law alone because terrorist by
definition is outside of the law, a Fidayeen or Jehadi has no apology to
any of the law. He comes prepared to die for his cause because his
cause renders him in Jannat and it is supreme for him. Therefore, this
is only the first step in the direction we must travel and that is the long
road ahead. We will not be able to travel that long road ahead if in the
very least, in the very minimum, all shades of opinion do not agree n
one fundamental truth that terror sees no religion, it sees no colour and
it sees no country, it a law unto itself and that is why I say, Sir, in
response to a charge that sometimes these laws are used against a
particular community. I hasten to doubt that statement. I negate that
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
269
statement. The law on terror sees neither religion nor colour nor
nationality, it only sees the victim, and it only sees the culprit. It is the
duty of the law to bring to justice the perpetrators of this crime; it is the
duty of the law to safeguard the interests of the innocent citizens. On
all these points, Sir, this Bill passes muster. Sir, the National
Investigative Agency Bill is equally important.
(Contd by 4P)
SCH-SSS/6.10/4p
SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD.): It is important because we know
that terrorism has transgressed and transcended boundaries. It is not
confined to geographical boundaries. Within a federal country like ours,
with unitary bias, with so many States and links of terror being located
in more than one state, you need an over-arching central agency that
can on demand seek the assistance of the State security apparatus, yet,
have its own over-arching umbrella organisation which owes no apology
to any help coming from somewhere or not coming from somewhere.
Of course, I have reason to believe that if the central agency were to
ask assistance from the State Government that shall be forthcoming.
Every State Government, people of this country as a whole are
nationalist people. They would never unfairly deny that assistance.
Therefore, Mr. Yechury needn't be worried that this would be an
onslaught on the rights of the State. As far as the use of the word
'may' is concerned, he said, that 'well, it only makes it discretionary
upon the Central Agency to ask for assistance and is not mandatory.'
Well, we have known 'may' to have been interpreted and read as 'shall'
and vice versa. But, without getting into the legalities let me just say that
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
270
whenever assistance will be required from the State Governments, I
know it shall be forthcoming and suppose assistance was sought to
check a terrorist crime and for some A, B, or C reason, hypothetically
speaking, a State Government was unwilling to give that assistance, do
we tell this House, do we tell India that we are impotent in that
situation? No, that is the reason Sir, this investigative agency, this Bill
that seeks to establish for the first time an agency of this kind, meant to
be effective, meant to send out a signal is necessary, and, I think, is a
great and a progressive moment forward. Sir, in conclusion let me just
say this: Nations survive Governments and civilisations survive nations.
We speak today not for one party, not for the Opposition, certainly not
for the ruling party only, but we speak for our country. We speak for
our civilisation, we speak for a way of life, a life that teaches us to
respect every religion, to fight every kind of oppression, to protect the
innocent and the weak and the only agency that man has created to
protect the weak and innocent is the agency of the law and it is for that
purpose that both these Bills very finely sub-serve. I thank you for all the
attention that was given to me.
(Ends)
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(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
DR. V. MAITREYAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, the UPA Government has
placed before this august House two Bills today for consideration and
debate. One is the Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill,
2008; and the other is the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. This
has come after 23 incidents of terror attacks and 910 casualties. This is
according to the Wikipedia. The numbers are likely to be more. Till 22
terror attacks happened, the UPA has been consistently maintaining that
the existing laws are enough to tackle terrorism. Suddenly, after the 26th
November attack, wisdom has dawned upon the Government to
strengthen the laws. Now, it has taken a U-turn. µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æãü†Ö, ÛîúÃÖê Æãü†Ö,
ŒµÖÖë Æãü†Ö, Ûú²Ö Æãü†Ö? ÆüÖê´Ö ×´Ö×®ÖÙü¸ü ÛúÖê ¯Öæ”ëûÝÖê, ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê, ¾ÖÆü ”ûÖê›ÍüÖê, µÖÆü ®Ö ÃÖÖê“ÖÖê,
µÖÆü ®Ö ¯Öæ”ûÖê… Mr. Kapil Sibal said that we should send a message not only
to the country, but also to the rest of the world that we are united in
our fight against terrorism. 'Yes', we all want it. The country wants it.
The country wanted it, the country wants it. We had been wanting this
for the last four-and-a-half years. But, Mr. Kapil Sibal, the hard reality is
that you didn't fight against terrorism in the last four-and-a-half years at
all. †Ö¯Ö ŸÖÖê ¸üÞÖ”ûÖê›Íü ¤üÖÃÖ £Öê… ÃÖÖœÍêü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ‹Ûú Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ‹Ûú †™îüÛú ÆüÖêŸÖê ¸üÆêü †Öî¸ü
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
277
†Ö¯Ö ŸÖ´ÖÖ¿ÖÖ ¤êüÜÖ ¸üÆêü £Öê… Now, suddenly, wisdom has dawned on you. I am
very sure, the real reason for the UPA Government to be pro-active in
their approach towards terrorism is because of the public anger,
outburst and outrage. Public is angry because of your inaction for the
last four-and-a-half years. Public is outraged because of your
inefficiency and ineptitude for the last four-and-a-half years. Now, you
have suddenly realised that the public will not vote for you, and it will
vote you out in the coming Lok Sabha elections if you continue to
remain blind to the terror attack. It is this single factor that has forced
the UPA Government to come out with these two Bills. Your initiative to
bring these two Bills to tackle terrorism may be an electoral compulsion,
but, as far as my party is concerned, my party General Secretary, and
leader, Smt. Puratchi Thalaivi, is concerned, they have been very strong
and consistent crusaders against terrorism. Ever since 1991, for the last
two decades, she has been consistent in her approach towards
terrorism, come what may. She has never, ever changed her stand or
position with regard to her approach towards terrorism. It was she, who
after coming to power in Tamil Nadu in 1991 got the terrorist
organisation, LTTE, banned in the country. As long as she was in
power, she had crushed terrorism ruthlessly, with an iron hand. In fact,
I would like to draw the attention of the House to the speech delivered
by Smt. Puratchi Thalaivi as the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu during
'The Conference of Chief Ministers on Internal Security and Law and
Order' held on 15.4.2005, after the UPA Government came to power. I
quote, "First and foremost, I would like to invite the attention of the hon.
Prime Minister to the need for a firm and unambiguous stand against
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
278
terrorism, extremism and all the forces that insidiously strive to tear us
under our polity. (Continued by PB/4T)
PB/4T/6.30
DR. V. MAITREYAN (CONTD.): The olive branch can be shown and kid
glove treatment extended to extremists, Naxalites and even terrorists,
only at our peril. They unfailingly use such opportunities to regroup and
get the time, space and money to renew their violent struggle. It is
always better to isolate the problem and eradicate it, instead of hoping
against hope that there will be a change of heart. In the aftermath of
September 11, 2001 terrorist violence, it would be foolhardy to lower our
defence against the machinations of terrorists. We have to be one step
ahead in our war against terrorism."
It is because of such firm conviction against terrorism shown by
my leader Puratchi Thalaivi, that we support today any effort taken by
any Government to strengthen the anti-terror laws. And we are here
today to support the steps taken by this Government to strengthen the
Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 by the proposed amendments.
Now I come to the second Bill, The National Investigation Agency
Bill, 2008. As a concept, the AIADMK is for and it supports the creation
of an investigation agency at the National level to investigate and
prosecute offence affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of the
country. I again draw the attention of the House to Madam's speech at
the Chief Ministers' Conference in 2005. I quote, "I would like to draw
the attention to the question of unified intelligence to ensure better
results. Given that terrorism has multifarious dimensions like money
laundering, syndicated crime and drug cartel networks, apart from the
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
279
links between terrorist groups of different origins, as, for example, the
LTTE with the ULFA, it is important that the State police, the Intelligence
Bureau, the Customs and the Internal Revenue Departments, the
Narcotics Control Bureau and the Coast Guard, apart from the agencies
handling external intelligence like the RAW, are all brought together
under an institutionalized mechanism with an IT-driven database and
information sharing protocol. At the State level, it should be under the
Chief Minister of the State, and, at the level of the Government of India,
under the Union Home Minister or the Cabinet Committee on Security."
Thus, it is clear that while we are firm in our conviction to tackle
terrorism, we are equally firm in protecting the rights of the States.
Whenever the Federal structure enshrined in the Constitution of India is
stramped upon, my leader and my party are the first to raise our voice
against it. The possibility of the Centre misusing its powers as regards
the NIA to target unfriendly State Governments cannot be ruled out. I
repeat again, the possibility of the Centre misusing its powers as regards
the NIA to target unfriendly State Governments cannot be ruled out, just
as the CBI had been misused so often to settle political scores.
Thus, Chapter llI, section 6, sub-sections 5 and 6 give overriding
power to the Central Government, reducing the role of the State
Governments to nothing. Sub section 5 which enables the Central
Government to suo motu direct the agency to investigate should be
deleted. Accordingly sub-section 6 by which the State Government and
any Police Officer of the State Government, investigating the offence, is
prevented from investigation and forced to transmit the relevant
documents and records to the Agency should also be deleted.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
280
A close coordination, co-operation and intelligence-sharing
between the State law enforcing authorities and the Central investigating
agencies is very much essential to effectively combat terrorism. The
above clauses, sub-sections 5 and 6, are very much against the spirit of
this cooperation and co-ordination as it exhibits a big brother or one-
upmanship attitude of the Centre.
The war against terrorism is formidable. The Centre and the States
should join together with conviction and determination to stamp out
terrorism. Thank you, Sir.
(Ends)
(Contd. by 4u/SKC)
4u/6.35/skc
DR. JANARDHAN WAGHMARE (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, I stand here to
support the Bill. The Mumbai incident has proved to be an eye opener.
This incident in Mumbai has created a very extraordinary situation.
People are in an angry mood. The whole nation is in an angry mood.
They are even denouncing politicians and demanding that some action
should be taken immediately. In such a situation, we need a very
effective legislation, and I feel that this National Investigation Agency Bill
would give us new hope. We shall be able to prevent terrorism which
has caused loss of lives and property. Sir, laws should be effective and,
at the same time, implemented very effectively. Laws, of course, are
instruments in our hands; they are means. Much depends upon how you
are going to use these instruments or means. Laws, of course, cannot
prevent things. Only after the Act, law comes into play. This is the
National Investigation Agency; this is not the 'National Prevention
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
281
Agency'. Our problem is, how to prevent terrorism. It is a very complex
phenomenon. The seeds of terrorism are found in fundamentalism. The
roots of terrorism are found in certain countries where training is
provided to the terrorists, and its branches are spread all over the
country. So, this is a very big and complex problem. India has suffered a
lot. No other country in the world has suffered as much as we have
suffered. The international political community also has realised the
gravity of this situation; that is why, international opinion is in our favour.
The tide is in our favour. We need to exploit this situation.
Now, this menace of terrorism has to be fought collectively at the
national level as well as at the international level. Therefore, we have to
be very vigilant. Our police force, our paramilitary forces, our Intelligence
services, all these should be equipped properly with new technology and
we must have a feeling of unity in the country. It is a very good thing
that at this juncture we are united. United we stand, divided we fall.
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. So, our people should realise this
and should be united and vigilant.
Sir, in this country, there is a flood of infiltration. This could
convert our country into a trojan horse. People are giving shelter to
terrorists. They are being sheltered; they are being funded. We need to
get to the root cause of all this and take very effective steps to destroy
all these sources of terrorism in the country. Then alone we can be
successful in this. Therefore, the whole nation should be united and
resolve to fight it with full strength.
(Ends)
(Followed by 4w/hk)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
282
HK/4w/6.40
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Rajeev Chandrasekharji, in
the others category there are 14 speakers and the time is only one hour.
So, try to be brief.
SHRI RAJEEV CHANDRASEKHAR (KARNATAKA): Sir, thank you for
this opportunity to speak on this vital Bill this evening. This Bill marks
what I hope is the first of the many steps required -- llegal,
administrative -- to secure our nation and our people. I will speak only
on the NIA and the Bill relating to the NIA.
Sir, as many hon. Members have already spoken in the House,
26/11 was an unprecedented attack on our nation. It reinforced the
sometimes forgotten fact, that we have a war being waged against us
as a people and as a nation. The difference, of course, was that this
time the attack was unambiguously on our economic centres and the
economic establishment.
Sir, after some years of neglect, the vital issue of fighting terror is
now taking centre stage, albeit on the back of the tragic events of
Mumbai. Sir, we must approach this whole challenge of terrorism with
the assumption that there will be definitely further attempts to attack
India and our people. The war on terror is not a short-term problem; it
is a medium to long-term challenge requiring us to think of solutions for
both the immediate and the long-term at the same time.
Sir, we are all agreed on the fact that is the most solemn
obligation of the Government to protect its people and, therefore,
priorities facing the Government today are stark and clear. They are,
firstly, to prevent and pre-empt any future terrorist attacks; secondly, to
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
283
upgrade and scale up our civil defence preparedness in anticipation of
these future attacks, and thirdly, investigate and track down perpetrators
of attacks and their supporters.
Sir, it is in the context of these priorities that we need to discuss
this Bill to create a National Investigative Agency. I have some broad
questions that I will address the Home Minister and I hope that he will
provide answers.
Sir, keeping in mind and reiterating that the Government's
immediate objective is to prevent and pre-empt further attacks, it is
obvious that what is clearly required today is a coherent, cogent
counter-terrorism strategy and an agency to implement that strategy.
The overwhelming opinion in police and security circles is that NIA
should have been the national counter terrorism agency and the skills,
capabilities, personnel and tools required to fight this war on terror be
assembled there.
However, from the reading of the Bill, the NIA is not the counter
terrorism agency that the country requires. It is not obvious to me,
where that resides in the Government and which agency is designated
to lead this counter terrorism efforts. Is it the NIA? Or is it the same
old multiplicity of agencies and institutions with no clear line of command
and ownership? I would humbly and most respectfully urge the
Government to establish a clear counter terrorism strategy and
leadership. If this has to remain secret, so be it. But a confirmation
from the Government that there is such an effort in place and there is
such a leadership in place will go a long way in making the people of
India confident about the efforts underway to fight this menace.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
284
Sir, the Bill and the accompanying notes and the discussions in the
public domain suggests that this National Investigative Agency is actually just
replacing the much politicised crime investigative branches of the State police
and, therefore, will be tasked with investigating offences that have already
been committed.
One of the reasons for the weakening and crippling of the capabilities
of the State police agencies is the excessive political interference in
appointments, transfers and promotions to such an extent that the best talent
in our police forces shun going to these Departments. So, there is a follow-
up question that would be useful to get an answer from the Home Minister.
What steps will the Government take to ensure that the NIA will not become
another politicised law and order institution amongst the other institutions that
we already have? This is not a passing concern, given that Governments,
currently and in the past, have had a pathetic track record of building and
nurturing new credible institutions of Governance and keeping them focused
on real work instead of using them for political investigation and intelligence.
We have also seen to our disgust and dismay, political leaders playing politics
with the work and performance of many brave police officers including one
such performance yesterday outside the Parliament.
Sir, Fareed Zakaria in his book, "Post American World" talks of the US,
Britain, Israel shrugging off and bouncing back after terrorist attacks. That is
mainly because they have managed to create professional and capable
institutions in this area that respond swiftly and capably after such attacks.
So, I would urge the Home Minister to look into the downstream issues of
how to nurture and build the NIA into a fine, capable, professional agency
and most importantly an agency that's resistant to politicisation of the kind
that is crippled and eroded so many others in our country. This will also go
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
285
a long way to gain the respect and trust of the people in what it does and
how it does it.
(Contd. by 4x/KSK)
KSK/MP/4X/6.45 SHRI RAJEEV CHANDRASEKHAR (CONTD): In end, I am not an expert on
the subject of terrorism, but post 26/11, everyone in India has become aware
of its serious threat and the inadequacy of our intelligence and security
organisations and leadership to counter terrorism. Even the Home Minister
has admitted to lapses in the security operations. I, and a large number of
other M.P.s, have urged for an independent inquiry into what went wrong,
like the 9/11 commission in the U.S. I have since been advised that, that
may demoralise the security agencies. That is clearly not our objective. But,
I would reiterate that unless we know what went wrong, we will not know
what to fix and unless we fix the mistakes, we could pay the cost again on
some future date. I would urge upon the Home Minister to give the House
an assurance that he has independently and comprehensively examined and
established the systemic flaws that led to 26/11, especially in areas of joint
action, intelligence follow-up, ownership and integrated functioning of
agencies since these will be required to address the issues of how the NIA
will be organised in future.
Sir, let me end by saying that securing the country has to be a truly
national effort and I hope the current political consensus continues, as the
other important steps to increase and strengthen the security of our country
are planned and implemented.
(Ends)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Pp 573 onwards will be issued as a Supplement.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
286
THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 AND THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES
(PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008 (CONTD.)
KSK/MP/4X/6.45
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
294
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you very much.
Now, there are 14 speakers more. I am requesting every Member to be
very, very brief.
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I rise here, on behalf of the
DMK Party, to support both the Bills, and because the pros and cons
and the ifs and buts of these Bills have exhaustively been discussed in
this House, I will make my speech very, very brief.
Sir, this Bill has been termed as 'toothless' by one section and
'clawed' by another. A lot of us are worried about the human rights
and the human rights violation because most of the terror laws have the
danger of falling into this kind of trap. When the extreme stands were
taken by them, we know, as the Home Minister said, that a balance has
been achieved, and I congratulate him on doing that.
Sir, the DMK Party has always opposed the POTA, and we have
been a stronger supporter of repealing the POTA. But, here, we would
like to warn that the anti-terror laws can be misused. If we take the
example of TADA, which has been repealed, it was repealed mainly
because in many of the cases, it is being misused and a lot of innocent
people have been arrested or detained. Under POTA also, people have
faced the similar plight. It is being used against the dalits, against
certain particular communities and religious communities, deprived
sections and political parties. I am very particular in mentioning this over
here because I come from a State where POTA was being used against
the journalists. And it was also being used against the political leaders.
(Contd. by TMV/5C)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
295
-MKS-TMV-AKG/5C/7.10
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): You don't listen to that.
(Interruptions)... You address the Chair. (Interruptions)... Don't listen to
that. (Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: It was used against political leaders.
(Interruptions)...
DR. V. MAITREYAN: When political leaders commit mistakes, it has
been used. (Interruptions)...
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No, please. (Interruptions)... No interruptions,
please. (Interruptions)... That is her opinion. (Interruptions)... No,
please. (Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: It was used against political leaders.
(Interruptions)...
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You speak. (interruptions)... That is her
opinion. (Interruptions)... Please, proceed.
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: Today, they are saying that they have always
supported the anti-terror laws and they have been against terrorism.
Once a person of a political party has been arrested under that Act by a
leader or by a party, and today they have gone for alliance with it. So,
it is actually a case of running with the hare and hunting with the hound.
Some people have mastered that art. (Interruptions)...
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: She is not saying who it is. (Interruptions)...
Why do you worry? (Interruptions)... No, please. (Interruptions)...
DR. V. MAITREYAN: They are worried about the coming election.
(Interruptions)... They are worried about the coming election.
(Interruptions)...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
296
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Maitreyanji, please.
(Interruptions)... No, please. (Interruptions)... You please continue.
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: We need not be worried. (Interruptions)...
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is your time. (Interruptions)... Please.
(Interruptions)...
SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: If the power goes into the hands of people like
them, it will be misused. That is the biggest apprehension that we have.
I am just trying to caution because of that. The DMK likes to caution
about the extended detention without bail for 180 days. If a law like this
goes into the hands of wrong people, it can be used against many
innocent people as has already happened. Since we have full faith in
the UPA Government and the Home Minister has promised that we can
revisit this law and make amendments, we support this Bill.
The next thing which I would like to mention is the National
Investigation Agency. The DMK has always been a supporter of the
federal system, autonomy and more powers to the States. Yet, we
support this Bill also. Keeping in mind that India has become a major
target of terrorists and we also understand that there is a great concern
over national security, we support this Bill. But I would like to bring to
the notice of this House and the Minister that, for the first time, in our
federal set-up, where law and order has always been a State subject, a
National Investigation Agency is going to be set up. It should not
become a first step where the State's powers are taken away. It should
not become so because, for the first time, we are opening the doors for
interference by the Central Government and taking away the powers of
the State. Of course, there is a list of scheduled offences which have
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297
been given here. The unlawful activities are one of the offences in the
list. I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister that it is a very
large area and it leaves a lot of grey area. We have to be more
specific, what these unlawful activities will be. He has to explain and
make it clear that it would stop with terrorist activities and it would not
go into other kinds of unlawful activities. Clause 9 says, "The State
Government shall extend all assistance and cooperation to the agency
for investigation of scheduled offences". This clause will have to be
clarified because we should know very clearly where the rights of the
Central Government would end. It should be very clearly stated where it
would stop. It is very important because it has been stated here that an
offensive or a hostile Central Government can make an opportunity out
of this. It should not make an opportunity out of this and infringe upon
the rights of the State.
I would also like to know from where the manpower for NIA is
going to come. How is it going to be organised? It can't be started
without manpower. Of course, we need the manpower and we need
help from State agencies. But it is important that it comes from the
Centre. The manpower should come from the Centre and it should be
very clearly stated how it will be done. (Time-bell). Thank you.
(Ends)
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you very much.
As soon I rang the bell, you have stopped. You are very disciplined.
Thank you. Shri D. Raja.
(Followed by 5D/VK)
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298
VK/5D/7.15
SHRI D. RAJA (TAMIL NADU): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, at the outset, I
would like to inform the House that I have given an amendment to the
Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008 and also some
amendments to the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008.
Fight against terrorism, is, in other words, fight for defence of
internal security and sovereignty of the country. We will have to fight
terrorism at all levels, not only at the legal level; both external and
internal. Thanks to Dr. Ambedkar, we have a Constitution which is a
republican one. Our country is a democratic republic. The Constitution
guarantees fundamental rights, democratic rights, human rights and all
civil liberties to our citizens. We are a Parliamentary democracy. We
are not a two-party system. In a multi-party democracy, we should try
to build a broader consensus, when laws of this nature are made.
Normally, these Bills should have been referred to the Standing
Committee.
Having said this, I would like to make certain observations
with regard to terrorism itself. In the Statement of Objects and
Reasons, which was circulated on 15th December, 2008, there is a clear
mention of Left-wing extremism, which my colleague Comrade Sitaram
Yechury also referred to. The National Security Guards Act, 1986 says,
"Terrorist means any person who, with intent to overawe the
Government as by law established or to strike terror in the people or any
section of the people or to alienate any section of the people or to
adversely affect the harmony amongst different sections of the people,
does any act or thing by using bombs, dynamite or other explosive
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
299
substances or inflammable substances or firearms or other lethal
weapons or poisons or noxious gases or other chemicals or any other
substances, whether biological or otherwise, of a hazardous nature, in
such a manner as to cause, or as is likely to cause, death of, or injuries
to, any person or persons or damage to, or destruction of, property or
disruption of any supplies or services essential to the life of the
community".
Here it clearly refers to only one type of extremism, that is Left-
wing extremism. I do not know what is the definition of Left-wing
extremism. Even today the Naxalites do not call themselves Naxalites.
They call themselves Maoists. In such a situation, I would like to know
from the Home Minister what about the right-wing extremism that is
spreading hatred and violence in the society and creating hatred
between one community and the other. How are you going to deal with
right-wing extremism? In this context, I must say that this law is likely
to be misused. I do not want to go into the details. All the details have
been shared in this House about how POTA was misused; how TADA
was misused. But I must say that the misuse was to such an extent
that even people were arrested for the possession of Communist
manifesto written by Marx and Angel, in some States.
(Contd. by 5E)
RG/7.20/5E
SHRI D. RAJA (contd.): And this is obnoxious. Even today such things
are happening. Simply you throw some Maoists' literature into the room
of a person; you arrest him and put him under such draconian laws.
Such abuse and misuse of laws is taking place. There, I think, the
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300
Home Minister will have to see how the Unlawful Activities (Prevention)
Act is going to work in the coming days. On this, many issues were
raised. Due to constraint of time, I do not want to go into the details.
At the same time, I have given an amendment in this regard whereby
the provision, of giving the onus on the person to prove himself/herself
as innocent, can be dealt with. Otherwise, with this kind of a provision,
this law will be draconian and repressive, and it can lead to violations of
human rights and democratic rights of the common people. This can be
applied to any person or any section of people. I think the Home
Minister needs to explain to this House how he is going to deal with it.
In the same way, the bail period can be extended from 15 days to 30
days to 60 days, 90 days and then 180 days. How far this can work in
the given situation needs to be explained. That is why I say that this
particular Bill, the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill, 2008,
needs to be properly scrutinised. We would also like the Home Minister
to consider the amendments given by us. Otherwise, this law can be
misused and abused in the coming days. I would like to warn the
Government of such a problem in the future.
Coming to the National Investigation Agency, in this Bill also, we
have placed certain amendments for the consideration of the hon.
Minister. India is a federal country. Even though we have the Union
Government, we have a federal structure in place. So, the National
Investigation Agency, that we are setting up, should not, in any way,
undermine the federal structure of our polity and it should not encroach
upon the rights of State Governments. In an effort like this, it is always
necessary that State Governments need to be associated. You cannot
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301
keep the State Governments outside the decision making process. There
again, we have given one amendment to the Schedule. We have suggested
that six schedules can be in Schedule 'A' and two schedules can be in
Schedule 'B'.
Sir, since our country is a diverse country, and we are having multi-
party democracy, we can have Governments belonging to the same party in
some States and, at the Centre, it can be a different Government. But there
should be all cautions taken to ensure that we do not encroach upon the
powers of the States and we do not undermine the federal character of our
polity and governance. I do not know how the Home Minister is planning to
constitute the National Investigation Agency. What will be its composition?
These details need to be explained. Also, the bureaucrats, or, to say, the
bureaucracy, should be made accountable. From the past experiences, one
can say that the bureaucrats are let out scot-free. It is the politicians who
are punished. Of course, the politicians have to be made accountable for
their action/inaction. At the same time, in case of failures, the bureaucrats,
who are in-charge, also must be made accountable. The Home Minister
needs to explain this as well. At the end, I would like to say that there
cannot be two opinions about our fight against terrorism. At the same
time, it should not become a partisan affair.
(Continued by 5F)
TDB/5F/7.25
SHRI D. RAJA (CONTD.): The effort should not be a partisan one. It should
be a united one, a collective one. The whole country should stand united,
and the Parliament should stand united, for which the Home Minister will
have to concede the views given by other parties, and the amendments given
by us also. Thank you very much, Sir. (Ends)
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302
SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, as usual, I stand as an
Independent, but, today, to support both the Bills. Sir, I stand with a lot
of trepidation and nervousness, having seen what happened here today
during the day, big leaders shouting at each other, Sir. They have big
parties supporting them. I only have the poor citizens of India supporting
me, Sir. So, I am very nervous today because I am going to get
brickbats from both the sides. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, I don't need to
make it very clear that we are all proud Indians, and what we are saying
should not be taken as anything against our great country. But, what
has been happening for the last year or two gives the world, and many
in India, an impression that we have become a soft State. The people
the world over, Sir, unfortunate or unfortunate, as it may be, only
respects strength. You have to be militarily strong; you have to be
economically strong; you have to be a stable country; you have to be a
united country. Nobody in the world respects the weak. Keeping that in
mind, Sir, we have to see that there are two sides of the terror coin.
One is, what is happening within our country; and the other is, in our
neighbouring country. At the moment, we speak especially of one
specific country. Unless to some extent, in some way, we take care of
conditions and developments in our neighbouring country as well as
ourselves because we are surrounded, all over the place, between us
and the West, by lots of countries, we cannot succeed. We have to take
care of both of them. I believe, Sir, the citizens of this country, maybe, I
am talking of the Mumbai types, maybe, I am talking of the urban-types,
maybe, I am talking of the elite types, maybe, those with suits and
lipsticks, I don't know, Sir, but they seem to have lost confidence in our
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303
ability to govern. We are very conscious about. Sir, every Government
since 1947 has been our Government. We vote for it. So, we are not
complaining against this Government or that Government. But, yes, there
is a feeling, we have heard, against politicians, whatever that means.
But, that does not mean that we can do without politicians. It means we
need good governance, Sir. When we don't see much of a difference
between right and wrong, Sir, then, we land in a situation in which we
are today. For so many years, we have been dividing our society, I have
said this before, Sir, by religion, by caste, religion or whatever reason. I
don't want to say it is vote bank politics, whatever it is. As a
democracy, we want to get re-elected, but there must be a Lakshman
Rekha which we do not cross. Our police force has been emasculated
by the entry of criminals in politics. I am not saying about everybody,
but there are a few criminals in politics. If we need to declare a war, Sir,
no sensible man should say we should declare a war. But, yes; we need
a war against corruption, moral corruption and financial corruption.
Faced with today's absurd, perpetual threat to life, the civil society in
India, at least, what I see it, is reacting. It has started moving. The
efforts amongst the minority community, I am very happy to say, Sir,
also to take a clear stand on terror, is moving in the right direction. The
result, according to me -- Sir, I am not a politician, as knowledgeable as
people here -- the recent elections in five States, also show, people, by
and large, want to reward performance and are not gullible enough to
listen to electoral rhetoric. Sir, I have a few suggestions for the Home
Minister. We have a lot of complaints about incompetence of people
who are supposed to do different jobs, supposed to guard us. But, as
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304
has been said earlier, who has been punished. There is no question of
taking names of anybody. But, our intelligence agency, whether it is the
IB or whether it is the RAW, we have the new Agency coming up, and
somebody said, my colleague, Rajeev Chandrasekhar said that we have
to ensure ourselves that it is not just other agency, the similar people
who are going to man it. So, ultimately, as I said a few days ago during
the course of the discussion in this House, we need accountability, we
need some reward and punishment based on performance, not because
I like your face. I don't see how it is coming, but without that -- you can
have all the equipment -- you can have everything -- Sir, it is going to
be difficult to solve our problem. (Contd. by 5g-kgg)
kgg-klg/5g/7.30
SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ (contd.): Sir, it is a minor point, maybe; if the
citizens cannot be secure, we have heard the complaints, then who are
leaders to be so secure? I am not saying no political leader or
bureaucrat should have security, but how much security? How much
money is being spent? We keep hearing in the media that that should all
be reduced. Some need it and they should get it based on the threat
perception and the rest should not. So, NSG has to be strengthened,
R&AW has to be strengthened, IB has to be strengthened. We should
also tie up with the U.S.A., the U.K., even Israel. Whoever can help us
become more efficient and strengthen our intelligence agencies and our
entire administration, their help should be taken. (Time-bell)
Ultimately, I would only close by saying, Sir, because you never
gave me time; whenever I speak, you are sitting! (Interruptions) You ring
the bell. (Interruptions)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
305
SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, I have a point of order. (Interruptions)
SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ: Mr. Amar Singh always takes my time, Sir.
(Interruptions) Sir, there is no personal conflict of interests.
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): What is the point of
order? (Interruptions)
SHRI AMAR SINGH: The point of order is, he does not have any party;
he has got NCP, BJP and Shiv Sena; 3 parties unlike us, Sir! We are
supported by only one party! He is supported by three parties.
(Interruptions)
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ²Ö•ÖÖ•Ö! (Interruptions)
SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ: ‡ÃÖ ÛúÖê ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ²Ö•ÖÖ•Ö! Sir, misfortune of Amar
Singhji's party, which I respect, is they did not have enough votes in my
State. They would also have ensured by voting for me. He is supporting
my nephew very strongly, which I appreciate very much.
Sir, accountability, performance and performance should be there.
Reward should go to those who perform and punish those who do not.
Thank you, Sir.
(Ends)
THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You wanted seven minutes and you took less
than that. Thank you.
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (JHARKHAND): Sir, I am here to speak on the
National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008, and the Unlawful Activities
Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008. Sir, I am on a very limited point. I do
not want to give a big speech, nor would I want to blame anybody. If at
all I have to blame, I should blame the terrorists and the people who are
supporting the terrorists. Sir, we have lost our Prime Minister in 1984, we
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
306
have lost a former Prime Minister, Shri Rajiv Gandhi, in 1991. We have
lost the Punjab Chief Minister. I have seen the different faces of
terrorism. Sir, while democracy is as necessary for the creation of a civil
society, as breath is to human life, it is equally important for us to realise
that there is one single phenomenon; and, one single enemy of the
society is the new phenomenon, terrorism. We have seen, Sir, that the
Jammu and Kashmir Assembly was attacked, then Parliament was
attacked, the Red Fort was attacked, and then serial bomb blasts
happened in trains in Mumbai, in 2006. We have seen in Ahmedabad,
we have seen Surat, we have seen Jaipur, Hyderabad, Guwahati,
everywhere. It is also clear that they have an agenda. And I have
chalked out, and they have four things. When we treat these people,
when we are discussing to bring in this law, scrapping that law, we are
talking big, big things. But we are not discussing one thing. The first
and the foremost is that these acts showed that no nation and no
people are proof against terrorism today. We have seen the Twin
Towers; we have seen Melbourne; we have seen Spain; we have seen
London and then we have seen India. The terrorists of today are not
simple-minded anarchists. They are clever and calculating. They are
organised, they are well-funded and trained in the use of modern
technology for their acts of destruction.
(Contd. by kls/5h)
KLS/5H/7.35
SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD): They are not mindless, they are well
functioning but with evil minds. Secondly, terrorism today knows no
boundaries. If somebody thinks that it is Gujarat, forget about it, it will
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
307
not come to his State, he is living in a fools' paradise. Terrorism today
knows no boundaries; terrorists have their networks throughout the
world and will strike the target of their choice anywhere any time.
Thirdly, it is clear that terrorism hate the fact that it is democracy that
has led to the economic prosperity of the nation and it is democracy
that makes the success of the secular and pluralistic society such as
India. The more democracy succeeds the more desperate and more
vicious are the terrorists. Fourthly, these terrorist acts underline that
there are nations that are deeply involved in financing terror. They are
sponsoring them and providing safe havens for them. Finally and the
most dangerously terrorists whether individual or state find a fertile
ground for recruiting people for their evil designs through a perverted
use of religion and in its fundamentalist form. I have seen how Punjab
was intense to terrorism, I have seen when I was a student in Calcutta
University how Bengal was intense to Naxalism, one side Gopibalabhpur
and on the other side Naxalbadi and this is how it takes strength. You
have to deal with it properly but I am not fighting on these small things
but I am saying, Sir, today you have brought two Bills. My first speaker
Arun Sahib, he is a barrister, he has spoken, then another Mr. Kapil
Sibal, he is also a barrister, he has also spoken on that, and then Mr.
Singhvi and then Mr. Ashwani Kumar, everybody, all barristers and you
yourself, Sir, you are also a barrister. So, all are legal luminaries, I am
not. I know only one thing that whether it is the National Investigative
Agency, NIA or Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, the
people of this country want some law, some unity, somebody should
come forward to protect their interests, to protect their children, restore
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
308
the sense of security because they have lost trust in politicians, in
governance, everywhere. That is why everywhere they are cursing us.
Now it is high time to come out with a strong legislation and what I
narrated you in five points is that you are not dealing with an armed
force, you are dealing with a committed terrorists and they are not
anarchists, they are not criminals, they have a specific target, aims and
objects. We will only prepare that we will kill them; we will arrest them;
we will prevent them; we will detain them but they will kill you; they will
decide the date, they will decide the place and they will decide the time
and this is going to happen. How to stop it? Sir, when I was looking at
NIA -- I do not want to go into the nitty-gritty -- I know personally that
you were the architect of TADA, you were the architect of the SPG, you
were the architect of NSG in this country. Now, I have little faith that
you will bring some stringent law to control this but while drafting this
you must see the Section 2 of NIA, 1(f) says, "Schedule means Schedule
to this Act" and then Chapter III is dealing with all Schedule Offences
and those Schedules are mentioned in the last page. In last page, I am
talking about 8(b).
(Contd by 5J/SSS)
SSS/5J/7.40
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD.): In the last page -- I am talking
about 8 (b) -- It is 489 (a) to 489 (e), both inclusive of the Indian Penal
Code. I will just read out the Indian Penal Code for the information of
the House. This is 489 (a) to 489 (e). All are talking about counterfeiting
of notes. But why have you kept (e)? You know the punishment of (e)?
It is only a fine of Rs. 100. So you are giving a handle in the hand of
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
309
the executor, the police officer. If you want to release anybody under
this Section, he will book him and release him after charging not Rs.
100, maybe something more. What will you do? He has involved the
Schedule. Why have you kept this Section here? You must keep some
section where you can send them to jail for whole life or at least for ten
years. But, why this? You are a learned lawyer. You know better than
me. You can read all this. The second thing is, Sir, why have you
chosen this unlawful activity? You know the historical background of
this Bill. It was started in 1967. Why was it started? It was started for
a district, Aizawl to control the Mizo agitation. You want to build the
entire preventive Bill on that. Rajiv Gandhi has done a marvellous job.
He has gone for Rajiv Lal Denga Accord and after that peace returned
to Mizoram. But, do you think this is enough? Whatever it maybe, if
your foundation is weak, whatever building you may make, it will fall
down like a pack of cards. Today you need a Bill. Everybody saw it.
They were using Blackberry, they were using VOIP, they were using
Google maps, they were using all sorts of gadgets which are available
today and they were not only using the internet of India, they were using
the internet of Russia, Pakistan, Bangladesh. You cannot locate it. They
were using satellite phones which cannot be jammed by Indian jammers
because satellite phones work from Austria or from America. One
connection was from New Jersey and another connection was from
Austria. They were getting all information from Bangladesh and a
Bangladesh person was talking to Pakistan and he was getting
information. And do you think with this Bill and with this Rs. 100 fine we
are going to control? You must think about it. You have brought a Bill
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
310
and it is our moral responsibility as a BJP party and we have decided
that we will support whatever you do. Punish them, stop this menace
and if required finish the breeding centre from where they are coming
but do something. Do it with iron hands, not with velvet hands, and, I
believe, you will not use a velvet gloves, you will use the iron hand
because I have seen you working as an Internal Security Minister. This
is your assignment. This is a challenge for you. The entire nation has
reposed trust on you. You come out and do something but don't
depend on redundant Bills. (Ends)
(Followed by NBR/5K)
-AKA/VNK-NBR/5k/7.45
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
311
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دو جو نے منسٹر ہوم بليآنر ہمارے سر، : )بنگال یمغرب (یآباد حيمل ديسع احمد جناب
Unlawful Activities (Prevention) اور Nation Investigative Agency Bill بل
Amendment Bill شيد ہمارے آج ۔ںيہ کرتے سپورٹ یک ان لوگ ہم ں،يہ کئے شيپ
ہے ايگ ہو یضرور لئے کے کرنے مقابلہ کا اس اب ہے، ہوا شروع حملہ جو اوپر کے
اريت لئے کے مقابلے اس ساتهہ کے یمضبوط یپور قوم یپور اور حکومت یہمار کہ
زينريمش جو ں،يہ اںيجنسيا جو ںيم حکومت یہمار ۔کرے مقابلہ کا اس اور ںيجائ ہو
یضرور ہي ہم ۔ںيہ لئے کے کرنے مضبوط ہاتهہ کے ان قانون دونوں ہي ں،يہ
یسٹيانو شنلين جو ہي اب اور ںيہ آئے شيپ واقعات جو ںيم یممبئ کہ ںيہ سمجهتے
ساتهہ یہ ساتهہ کے جانے ہو سپا کے بل اس ہے، یرہ ہو establish یجنسيا ٹويگ
۔چاہئے جانا آ ںيم شنيآپر کو یجنسيا اس
یجنسيا ٹويگ یسٹيانو شنلين ہي ہے یونت ہي سے ميماده کے آپ یريم مہودے،
اوپر کے شيد ہمارے جو ہو، سيک وہ کرے، ٹيگ یسٹيانو کو جس سيک پہال اپنا
سےيک سب ہي آخر کہ جائے ندرا کے یگہرائ یک اس ہے، ہوا حملہ بڑا اتنا ںيم یممبئ
۔ہو سکتا ہو دار ذمہ لئے کے اس کون اور ہوا سے دوش کے کس ہوا، کر وںيک ہوا،
ہو establish بات ہي اب کہ وںيک ہے، یضرور بہت لئے اس کرنا ٹيگ یسٹيانو ہي
باہر ہي ہے، ںينہ indigenous terrorism ہمارا ہي ہے، ہوا ہاںي کچهہ جو کہ ہے یگئ
یک سازش اس لہذا ہے، ہوا تحت کے سازش یشنليانٹرن ہي ہے، ايگ ايک مپورٹا سے
ملک یپڑوس ہمارے کہ ںيہ رہے کهہيد ہي ہم ۔ہے یضرور بہت جانا ںيم یگہرائ
رہے کہہ کچهہ جو وہ سے وہاں اب ں،يہ یرہ جا یک ںيحرکت یبه کچهہ جو ہاںي سے
۔ںيہ رہے جا لے تک دور بہت باتا تانا کا اس وہ ں،يہ
یپڑوس ہمارے کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا کو بات اس سے ميماده کے آپ ںيم مہودے،
یجنسيا وزين نيفار کيا کل نے صاحب یزرداد جناب محترم صدر کے پاکستان ملک
کا پاکستان کہ ہے چهوڑا شوشہ اين کيا نے انہوں اب ںيم اس اور ہے ايد ويانٹرو کو
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315
۔ہے یکرائ نے ۔اے۔یآئ۔یس یک کايامر سب ہي بلکہ ہے، ںينہ دوش یکوئ ںيم اس
جب ۔گے ںيل نام یبه کا موساد ساتهہ کے اس وہ ديشا کہ تها انتظار کا بات اس تو ںيہم
قائم یجنسيا جو ہم کہ ہے جاتا ہو یضرور بہت ہي تو ں،يہ یرہ پہنچ تک ہاںي ںيبات ہي
اس اب ۔ںيد کرا شروع یبه کام کا اس اور ہو قائم جلد سے جلد وہ ں،يہ رہے جا کرنے
کل اور ںيہ رہے سن سے صبح لوگ ہم ں،يہ یہوئ یسيا ںيبات کچهہ ہاںي ںيم سلسلے
مارے لوگ جو ہے، ہوا ںيم یممبئ یبه کچهہ جو ،یته یہوئ چرچا ںيم سبها لوک
عام یبه جو ہوں، کے ۔یج۔سيا۔نيا چاہے ہوں، کے فورس سيپول وہ چاہے ں،يہ گئے
کيشر ںيم غم اور دکهہ کے ان لوگ ہم ۔ہے یہمدرد یہمار هہسات کے سب ہو، پبلک
لوگ سب ہے، ہوتا دايپ اليخ جو ںيم دل کے لوگوں کہ ہے یضرور بات ہي کنيل ۔ںيہ
۔ايک ںينہ کچهہ نے آپ کہ ہے رہا آ اوپر کے شئنيٹيپول الزام سارا اب ں،يہ سوچتے ہي
یبه جو لئے کے تهام کرو یک اس نے حکومت کہ ہے ہوتا دايپ ہي سوال ہاںي
ہمارے وہاں ۔ہے ايک ںينہ اي ہے ايک پورا کام اپنا نے انہوں ں،يہ یرکه کر قائم زينريمش
یک ان ، ںيم بارے کے موت یک ان گئے، مارے سريآف کے پولس بہادر بہت کيا
یہمدرد یپور کو لوگوں سب ںيم بارے کے ہالکت یک ان ں،يم بارے کے شہادت
یک سب ان! ايگ ہو سےيک سب ہي کہ ںيہ سوچتے ضرور بات ہي لوگ کنيل ہے،
ںيم شنين پورے ہمارے کہ ںيہ سوچتے ہي ہم ۔ہے یضرور بہت جانا ںيم یگہرائ
یرہ ہو اندر کے اس بات غلط یکوئ کہ رہے نہ شبہ و شک یکوئ ںيم دماغ کے یکس
۔سکے ہو متحد ساتهہ کے اس قوم یپور تاکہ ہے،
یک بل Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment تک جہاں مہودے،
سلسلے کے اس کنيل ں،يہ ساتهہ کے حکومت سے طرح یپور ہم ںيم اس ہے، بات
دوبارہ پهر اوپر کے بل اس ہم کہ تهے رہے کہہ منسٹر ہوم بليآنر یک صبح آج ںيم
کدميا قانون یبه یکوئ کا ايدن کہ ہوں سمجهتا ہي ںيم ۔ںيکهيد ںيم نےيمہ کے یفرور
یک کرنے کچهہ ںيکہ نہ ںيکہ اور یکبه نہ یکبه ںيم اس ہے، ہوتا ںينہ فائنل
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316
ضرور کو ان ں،يہ ہوئے شيپ نٹسينڈميام جو ہاںي آج ۔ہے یآت شيپ ضرورت
consider ڈيريپ لمبا کا دن 180 یعني نےيمہ چهہ جو ہي طورسے خاص ۔چاہئے کرنا
سوچنا ضرور ںيم بارے کے اس ہے، ادہيز ہتب ہي سے اليخ رےيم ہے، ايگ رکها
۔چاہئے سوچنا ضرور ںيم بارے کے یلبرٹ یک لوگوں ں،يم بارے کے اس ۔چاہئے
ہے، اپرادهہ کيا پر جگہ یاپن خود ہي تو ہے، یجات یلبرٹ یک یآدم innocent اگر
کے اس ں،يہ ايک دن 180 لئے کے اس تو ہے، یجات یلبرٹ یک اس ہے، مجرم جو کنيل
۔ہے کم تو جائے، ايد کر یبه الئف ہول لئے کے اس ں،يہ کم یبه دن 80 الکهہ 2 لئے
و شک محض لئے کے ڈيريپ لمبے کو یآدم گناہ بے کو، یآدم نردوش یبه یکس کنيل
یک ٹاڈا ہے، یہسٹر کيا سامنے ہمارے کہ لئے اس چاہئے، رکهنا ںينہ ںيم شبہ
رہا شبہ و شک بہت ںيم لوگوں ںيم بارے کے اس ۔ہے یہسٹر یک پوٹا ہے، یہسٹر
یآدم 000،75-000،80 کہ تها رہا ہوا شيپ ہي یبه آج ۔۔۔۔۔یآدم ہزار ہزاروں اور ہے
۔پڑا چهوڑنا کو سب ںيم آخر ہوا؟ کنوکشن کا وںيآدم کتنے ںيم اس اور گئے پکڑے
بات ناکافسوس ادہيز سے سب ںيم اس اور رہے بند لوگ سال دس-دس سال، آٹهہ-آٹهہ
۔یته ادہيز بہت تعداد یک ان تهے، ادہيز لوگ کے یونٹيکم یمائنارٹ ںيم اس کہ ہے ہي
ہي جو اب کہ ہے ايگ اياٹها سوال ہي ہے، رہا ہو دايپ اليخ ہي ںيم دل کے لوگوں آج
ہاںي مقصد کا کہنے رےيم ۔پڑے نہ وہاں چوٹ یکوئ پهر ںيم اس ہے، رہا بن قانون
یکوئ ںيم اس ۔بنا قانون کا مرڈر کا 302 بنے، اچها یبه اکتن قانون کہ ہے ہي
یکوئ گا، جائے ايک وزي-مس یبه ںيکہ اگر کو 302 اگر کنيل ۔ہے ںينہ یکنٹروورس
سوال ۔ہے وزي-مس وہ تو ہے، یپڑت یاٹهان فيتکل کو اس اور ہے جاتا پکڑا گناہ بے
کرنے نٹيم یامپل کو اس ں،يہ سکتے بنا اچها سے اچهے تو قانون ہم کہ ہے ہي ہاںي
لئے اس بات ہي ۔چاہئے ہونا کنٹرول پورا ہمارا اوپر کے اس ہے، جو ینريمش یوال
ں،يہ گئے کئے شيپ ہاںي نٹسينڈميام جو کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم ۔ہے یضرور بہت
۔جائے ايک تو ہے، سکتا جا ايک وسيڈير اگر کو اس ہے، ڈيريپ لمبا ہي ہي پر طورہ خاص
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317
ايک ہم ۔ںيرکه کو یکس ہم تک دنوں 90 کہ ہے یہوت بہت تو مدت یک نےيہم نيت
سکتے؟ کر ںينہ یبه ںيم نےيمہ نيت سکتے؟ کر ںينہ ٹيگ یسٹيانو
چاہتا کہنا ہي صرف ںيم آخر ںيم ---)یگهنٹ یک وقت(--- ہے جو بات یدوسر
چرين ہم اگر ۔چاہئے ہٹنا ںينہ چهےيپ کو ہم سے جسٹس چرلين اندر کے کورٹ کہ ہوں
سے وہاں ائےيان وہ تو گے، ںيجائ خالف کے جسٹس چرلين گے، جائيں خالف کے
الزام اوپر کے جس ہے، ايگ ايبنا accused جو شخص یکوئ ۔ہے جاتا ہو شروع
اس چاہئے، کرنا پروو سيک اپنا کو prosecution تو پہلے اوپر کے اس ہے، ايگ ايلگا
ں،ينہ کہ ںيل کر presume ہي ہم اگر کنيل ۔ںيہ تےيد حق کا نسيڈف کو اس ہم بعد کے
ہي کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم تو ہوگا، کرنا ثابت نردوش کو اپنے یہ کو اس ہے، ايگ پکڑا جو
نٹسينڈميام جو ہي ۔چاہئے رکهنا انيده کا باتوں ان لئے اس ۔ہے ںينہ جسٹس چرلين
کو ہاؤس اس اور کو صاحب ٹرمنس ہوم بليآنر ہمارے ضرور اوپر کے ان ں،يہ آئے
تو ں،يہ سکتے کر سدهار کچهہ ںيم initial stage یاس ہم اگر ۔چاہئے کرنا غور
چاہئے یہون ںينہ غلط اديبن یک اس ں،يہ رہے کر شروع ہم سے جہاں کہ وںيک ں،يکر
یہمار لئے کے اس ں،يہ رہے جا کرنے کام جو ہم کہ ہے ہي بات یبڑ سے سب اور
ں،يہ رہے جا ںيم کشنيڈائر رائٹ ہم کہ چاہئے ہونا حاصل ںيہم نسيڈکونف کا قوم
کچهہ جو لئے کے رکشا یک شيد اپنے ہم اور ںيہ رہے کر کام ںيم سمت حيصح
یک وقت(--- چاہئے ہونا کجٹيا کو قوم یپور ںيم اس اور گے ںيکر سب ہے، ممکن
کا شنيونالئزيکم ںيم اس نہ ۔ہے ںينہ سوال کا ہونے الگ الگ کو یکس ---)یگهنٹ
کو قوم یپور آج ۔ہے سوال کا مسلمان اور ہندو کا طرح یکس ںيم اس نہ ہے، سوال
۔یبه کو یسائيع اور یبه کو سکهہ ،یبه کو مسلمان یبه کو ہندو - ہے ہونا ساتهہ کيا
۔ہيشکر بہت بہت
"شد ختم"
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318
SHRI KUMAR DEEPAK DAS (ASSAM): Sir, there have been a number
of massive terrorist attacks in the country. Now, the Government of
India intends to add extra teeth to the law in an effort to win the war
against terrorism. A new federal agency has been proposed to
exclusively investigate the terror crimes. The Government is also
amending the provisions of the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act. The
Assam Gana Parishad is always in favour of taking stern action against
terrorist activities in the country. But in the name of anti-terrorism
actions, the human rights of innocent people should not be violated.
We have had very bad experience of the draconian law, called, the
Armed Forces Special Power Act, the POTA and the TADA in the past.
To fight the naga rebels in Nagaland, the Armed Forces Special Power
Act was imposed, but the terrorist activities are still there in Nagaland.
Later on, it was extended to the entire North-East, but the terrorist
activities could not be curbed. However, due to this Act, a number of
cases of human rights violation happened in Assam, Nagaland and
Manipur. A constable can kill a person without any investigation in the
name of tackling terrorism. Such a draconian Act should be scrapped.
The hon. Members and the senior lawyers, like, Jaitleyji, Kapil
Sibalji, discussed about the TADA and the POTA, but, I am sorry, they
did not utter even a single word about the draconian law that prevails
only in the North-East. (Contd. by 5m -- VP)
-MP/SC-VP/7.55/5M
SHRI KUMAR DEEPAK DAS (CONTD.): Why is it applicable to the
North-Eastern region only? The misuse of TADA and NSA for detaining
political opponents has been evident in the past. Therefore, on behalf of
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319
the Assam Gana Parishad, I appeal to the Government and to all
sections of this House to support this point that Parliament should have,
at least, six months time for review of Unlawful Activities Prevention Act,
even though it is a permanent law. We must remember, TADA and
POTA were rolled back after receiving complaints of abuse. The
Government should make a provision for monitoring implementation of
UAPA through an all-Party Parliamentary Committee. Sir, please don't
compromise human rights and fundamental rights of the people in the
name of curbing terrorism. Sir, I believe, only enacting laws will not curb
terrorism in the North East. There are three major issues that the
Government of India should take up for redressal. First, it should stop
illegal immigration and seal the Indo-Bangladesh border. Secondly, it
should concentrate on the development of the North Eastern Region.
We are far behind other parts of the country. Thirdly, there is the
unemployment problem. In Assam alone, there are 22 lakh unemployed
people. The Government should, definitely, take proper and necessary
action in this regard. With these few words, I conclude my speech.
Thank you. (Ends)
SHRI ABANI ROY (WEST BENGAL): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am
here to support the Bill with some amendments or with some
corrections. »Öê×Ûú®Ö ¤ãü³ÖÖÔÝµÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ‡ÃÖ ×²Ö»Ö ÛúÖê »ÖêÛú¸ü “Ö“ÖÖÔ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü †Öî¸ü 10
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320
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(5‹®Ö-‹´ÖÃÖß‹´Ö ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ)
MCM-PB/5N/8-00
ÁÖß †¾Ö×®Ö ¸üÖµÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ÃÖÖ£Ö Æüß ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ÛúÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ™êü¸üÖê׸ü•´Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ
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right wing, so they attack the Left wing. This is not the way. µÖÆü ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ
²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü… Terrorism is terrorism †Öî¸ü ™êü¸üÖê׸ü•´Ö ÃÖê ±úÖ‡™ü Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ Æîü, »Öê°™ü ؾÖÝÖ Ûêú ÆüÖë,
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
321
¸üÖ‡™ü ؾÖÝÖ Ûêú ÆüÖë, ÛúÆüà Ûêú ³Öß ÆüÖë Æü´Öë ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ¤êüÜÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… You should not
mention it in this way. ŒµÖÖë ®Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü µÖÆüÖÓ •ÖÖê ™êü¸üÖê׸ü•´Ö Æîü, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ פü®Ö ÃÖê †ÃÖ´Ö ´Öë
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Æü´Ö®Öê ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê פü®Ö ¿Öãºþ Ûúß £Öß ˆÃÖ ÆüÖ»ÖŸÖ ´Öë, we shall have to fight for
terrorism and we have to end terrorism. If we want to end terrorism by
our will, by our force, then we have to think in a different way and we
have to act according to that. I think, the Government of India, while
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
322
making this law and this Investigating Agency, should keep in mind that
this should be used properly. This should be used for the internal
terrorists or for the external terrorists. It should be used for terrorists and
not for creating terrors for those who are innocent. Thank you.
(Ends)
SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (ANDHRA PRADESH): Mr. Deputy
Chairman, Sir, I will support this Bill on behalf of the Telugu Desam
Party in the national interest.
The one thing that I want to say is that these two Bills, i.e., the
NIA Bill and the UAPA Bill, are reactive rather than proactive. Now, the
people of India are facing terrorism of one type. They are fidayeens who
are coming from foreign land. Some terrorists within the country strike in
this country and run away either to Bangladesh or to Pakistan. These
are safe havens for them. Then, we are fighting with such enemies who
are having scant respect for our law and they are perverted and sadist
also. Another aspect of this is that financial assistance, training,
recruitment of such terrorists and conspiracies are conceived by foreign
masters. Sir, there are two Bills.
(Contd. by 5o/SKC)
5o/8.05/skc
SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (Contd.): One is meant for investigation
while the other is meant for prosecution. If we analyse the Mumbai
incident and other such incidents, the terrorists either get killed by the
security personnel, or they take people hostages to protect themselves,
or, as a last resort, commit suicide. So, the proposed NIA would start
working only after the incident takes place. There is not much to
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323
investigate because the accused would have either died or fled to other
countries. We can only gain some experience out of these investigations.
As for prosecution, I would say they don't come to us with folded hands
to get themselves arrested or taken into custody! If you look at the
figures of the last decade, very few people got arrested.
Sir, as far as terrorists are concerned, this law is odourless,
tasteless and colourless. But when it comes to the common man, it is a
draconian law. For example, if a man rents his room to a youngster, a
student, who then turns into a terrorist and gets involved in some
unlawful activity, then according to the section for prosecution, that
landowner shall be considered to have aided or abetted the crime and
he shall be booked. Either knowingly or unknowingly, the landlord
becomes a victim of this draconian law. At some stage, Clauses
43E(a)(b) could be misused and they could be misused even politically.
So, there has to be some review mechanism. There is a review
mechanism provided for in this Bill, but it is not sufficient to protect the
common man. They need conduct review case by case and see to it
that no innocent person is harassed. Such provisions should be provided
for in this Act. Otherwise, this law would definitely be misused against
the common man.
Then, Sir, terrorists have the intention of destruction and they have
scant respect for our laws and our Constitution. They want to destabilise
the country. We cannot do much with these two laws. It is like a Pundit
chanting a powerful mantra before an angry tiger! They come here to
destabilise the country. They are not believers of our Constitution and
our laws. In such a situation, why should we think of giving any kind of
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
324
protection or think of the human rights angle for such terrorists as if they
are law-abiding citizens?
One more point and I shall conclude my speech, Sir. Intelligence
plays a more role in the prevention of terrorism. Of course, we have the
RAW, IB, Defence Intelligence and State Intelligence, but there is no
coordination among these agencies. This angle has already been
accepted by the Home Minister also. Now, there is need for a dedicated
Intelligence agency. At present, the IB and other Intelligence agencies
have no accountability. There is no morality in the force and no special
prestige for the force. As a result, people do not feel proud working in
these Intelligence agencies. I would have been happy if the Home
Minister had brought a National Security branch instead of NIA, on the
lines of the FBI, so that Intelligence and investigation might have been
brought under one law. That might have helped in combating terrorism.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.
SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY: Sir, I would like to remind one thing. It
cannot be controlled in a day, a month or a year. It requires some years
of dedicated work. (Contd. by 5p/hk)
HK/5p/8.10
SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (CONTD.): Sir, as the House is aware, the
extremism is under control in Andhra Pradesh. The process was started
ten years back by me when I was the Home Minister. Now this State is
getting fruits. If such type of mechanism with some modification is
applied, then terrorism can be controlled in a few years.
(Ends)
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325
SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH (HARYANA): Thank you, Mr. Deputy
Chairman, Sir. First of all, I associate myself with any move of the
Government to check terrorism. I come from the State and that
community which has been fighting forever against all invaders and
terrorists, and we have laid our lives any time if there is a call of the
nation. But I have some reservations about this Bill, which we are now
discussing. Sir, after the sad happening in Mumbai, people all over the
country and even NRIs abroad were feeling that India has not prepared
itself to face terrorism and to face the invaders who come from
neighbouring country. The Government should not make so much haste
in bringing this Bill without consulting the respective Chief Ministers,
avoiding Standing Committee on Personnel, Law and Justice. If it was
done, we could thoroughly discuss all clauses of the Bill. Sir, in this
year also, a Report was submitted by the Committee of Law and Justice
about this very topic and suggested certain measures. This Committee
also discussed the role of CBI. Sir, this new Agency being set up, we
should also know the fate of earlier outfits, especially the CBI. The CBI
has got the maximum respect from each State. Every State, whenever
there is any happening, transfers the case to the CBI. But now as per
the required strength of 4300 posts in CBI, more than 1000 posts are
lying vacant. The Government of India has even failed to provide
officers to CBI. How will they fill up posts in new agency and how long
will it take to select officers because this agency is going to be much
higher and bigger, which is going to all the States? With the experience
of CBI, we are worried as to what fate will be of this new agency, which
is now coming forth? Sir, we follow the Indian Constitution. We are a
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
326
federal country and we adhere to this principle that States have their
own powers. But every Act of the Government, for the last many
decades, is taking certain powers out of the States. With this Bill also
there is a fear, because there is a suo moto clause, that any time the
Government will take over anything in the name of terrorism. Already
with the new financial laws States are like becoming municipal
committees. They are not having those powers which States should
have. India being such a vast country, unless the States are fully
equipped we cannot have that strength at the national level. Sir, the
need of the day was that Government should have come out with a new
policy about our intelligence agencies. The Government should, first of
all, bring forward that Bill, not the Bill for investigation. Investigation
comes later on. The Government has not come out as to what was the
fault of our agencies in handling the terrorists' attacks. There are four
or five agencies. Nothing has come out yet as to what was the fault
and what the Government is going to do and how you are going to
improve your intelligence agencies. What is now the new policy for
RAW? That policy has to be told to us instead of this.
(Contd. by 5q/KSK)
KSK/8.15/5Q
SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH (CONTD): Secondly, Sir, with our own
experience, we have seen that whenever you give absolute power to the
Police, then there is always fear that a normal human being may suffer.
Sir, earlier in the debate, many people mentioned about POTA and
certain other Acts against minorities. Sir, everybody forgets what role
TADA and Central agency performed in Punjab. Mr. Sibal was
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
327
mentioning that hundreds of people were sent to jail under POTA in
Gujarat. Sir, 77,000 Sikhs were kept in jail without trial for years, and
nobody bothered. That case is never mentioned here. Thirty-six
thousand youths were killed in Punjab by the Police and they were
shown in false encounters. (Time-bell) Even the Supreme Court has
mentioned a case to the Human Rights Commission where in one
cremation ground, 1500 people were burnt on one day without any
record and it has taken six years to investigate that case. So,
thousands of people were killed in Punjab.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude.
SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: Sir, I can give figures of those villages
where for last ten years, no marriage party has taken place because all
youths were killed. So, if you give power to Police like this, how will we
save our people? There is no clause as to who will monitor this
Agency? Is there any Parliamentary Committee to look after what is
going to happen?
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Tarlochan Singhji, please, conclude.
SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: I will take only one minute. Then, Sir,
we have to prepare our Forces; we have to prepare our agencies to
fight. Sir, in my earlier speech in the House, I quoted Guru Gobind
Singhji. Now, I quote another "•Ö²Ö †Ö¾Ö Ûúß †Öî¬Ö ×®Ö¬ÖÖ®Öü ²Ö®Öê, †ŸÖ Æüß ¸üÞÖ ´Öë •ÖæôÖ
´ÖºÑþ" - every soldier should take a war like this, that whenever such
things happen, I will participate and I will die while fighting. Sir, unless
we prepare our Services, you cannot fight terrorism with this Bill. (Time-
bell). Terrorists are suicide attackers...
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
328
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, Tarlochan Singhji, there are another
six Members to speak.
SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: So, we must prepare the Forces to act
like this, and secondly, Sir, we should also tell the State Chief Ministers
that they should prepare their own people how to honour the martyrs.
During Kargil War, the then Defence Minister gave a statement that how
the States had honoured the martyrs. Maximum martyrs were from my
State, Haryana, and there he said that how Shri Om Prakash Chautala
took care of all the martyr families at that time should be followed by
each State. So, we must come out with such laws and prepare States
and the strength of the people to fight. And, last of all, Sir, there is one
quotation in Punjabi, "ÆüŸ£ÖÖ ²ÖÖ•Ö Ûú¸üÖ¸üµÖÖÑ, ²Öî¸üß ´ÖßŸÖ ®Ö ÆüÖêÞÖ", unless you do
something properly, you cannot make your enemies as your friends.
(Ends)
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, at the outset, let
me pay my sincere homage to all the martyrs and victims of the terrorist
attacks on Mumbai and all attacks before that. Sir, I am here to
express the grievances and the feelings of my fellow Mumbaikars who
have faced the nightmare of 62 hours starting from 26th November. I
come from Mumbai. So, I take it as my prime responsibility to express
the feelings, which my people have been telling me. I have received two
dozens letters during the last 24 hours. I wanted to read some of them,
but due to paucity of time, I cannot read them. They are in Marathi,
Hindi, English; from all walks of life and all the religions. People have
been expressing their solidarity and people have been expressing their
anguish and anger about what happened in the city. Sir, why are
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
329
people sending letters to my Party and me? This is a very-very sad
commentary on the ruling side. People have a feeling that the other
side, the ruling Party in the country and in my State, is inactive,
inefficient and not honest. Therefore, people are expressing faith in us.
Don't they know that we cannot do anything? We are not the ruling
Party. At least, for next six months, we will not be on the ruling side.
Even then, people are sending letters to us. This is, I think, the Home
Minister and the Prime Minister should take this very seriously.
(continued by 5r - gsp)
GSP-SCH/8.20/5R
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT (CONTD.): Sir, with heavy heart, I wish to
express my solidarity and my support to the two Bills, namely, the
Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008, and, the National
Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. I am saying this with heavy heart
because though my party and myself support these Bill on the floor of
the House, it does not necessarily mean that we accept all the
provisions mentioned in these Bills. There are many reasons. There are
many areas of doubt that we have, but because the Home Minister has
given the assurance that he will come back in February if there is
anything required, and, I believe in his sincerity and transparency, we are
supporting it. I will not get into the details of the Bills. This is because
I am not a law expert and I am not a typical political leader who can
speak on anything and everything. So, I am not getting into the
provisions of the law, but, surely, I want to say something. Why I am
not taking too much time on provisions of the Bill is because, for me,
laws are only the instruments, they are only tools; they are weapons.
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330
And, if these weapons are to be used effectively, you have to have
strong mind, strong hands and also the commitment to do something
for the society and the nation.
My observation is that this commitment, this honesty is lacking in
this Government. That is why, I have reservations about the Bill. Sir, I
have reservations about the Bill because I have seen from the reports
that came in after the incidents that the information about the attack
was coming in. Many people from various angles had given the
information about the possible attacks. That information had gone to
those hands that are supposed to know it. It had gone to the right
hands. But the bureaucracy and the intelligence agencies, on the one
hand, and, the political leadership, on the other hand, slept over it and
we had to face the nightmare.
Sir, do you have the will? I do not think that we have the will.
Sir, the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus was first to be attacked. Many
passengers of the railway, many railway policemen became the victims
of the terrorist attack. The President of India, the Home Minister,
everybody went there but what happened to the people who run the
railways? Where were they? None of the Ministers handling the railway
could visit that place. This is because we do not consider Mumbai as
our city. There is a lack of will. I am sorry to say but there is a lack of
will. You are talking about the national security. Everybody is saying
that the national security should come first. The civil aviation sector, the
airports, I think, are the most vulnerable spots where these attacks can
happen.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
331
While we are taking all the measures on the one hand, we are
handing over the ground-handling part of the Indian airports, particularly,
the Mumbai and Bengaluru Airports, to the private agencies, international
agencies, or, agencies that come from abroad. We have no control over
their recruitment. Those people will be controlling the ground-handling
department of the airports; from the airport to the aircraft, they will
handle everything. I think, we need to review the whole situation. (Time-
bell)
Sir, I have to make two more points. We should express our will
through various ways. Everybody is talking about the past. If Afzal
Guru can remain alive for so much of time, it means, we, ourselves
exhibit and declare that we are the soft targets. Why should that
happen?
Lastly, Sir, after the attack, so many heads rolled, our Home
Minister went, the Maharashtra Government went, but what happened to
the intelligence agencies. What happened to the Police Commissioner
of Mumbai, what happened to the Director General of
Police...(Interruptions)...
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Raut, please conclude.
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: What happened to the intelligence
advisors? Why can't we do something against them? Unless we take
the holistic approach, these types of Bills -- though against my will --
will not suffice. Thank you.
(Ends)
(Followed by YSR-5S)
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
332
PSV-YSR/5S/8.25
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Now Shri Mahmood A.
Madani. ..(Interruptions) ..
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúß ‡•ÖÖ•ÖŸÖ ÃÖê ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ²ÖÎß±ú ´Öë ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÑü…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: ¾ÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æîü?
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, †³Öß ´ÖÖ®µÖ¾Ö¸ü ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ *
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: Sir, I don't want to enter into this debate.
(Interruptions) But I want to set the record straight. (Interruptions) What do
you want? (Interruptions)
ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: *
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: ®ÖÆüà, ®ÖÆüà… †Ö¯Ö ‡ÃÖê ”ûÖê×›Íü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... No, the debate will go
somewhere else. ..(Interruptions)..
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: No, Sir, if that goes on record, my explanation
should also go on record. (Interruptions) It is simple. When I am
saying..(Interruptions).. You cannot stop me like this. Then expunge that from
record. (Interruptions)
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: †Ö¯Ö ‡ÃÖ´Öë ´ÖŸÖ ¯Ö×›Íü‹… I have called next member.
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: If that goes on record, I have every right to
register my protest and set the record straight. It cannot go one way.
(Interruptions) It cannot go one way.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is irrelevant.
SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, don't put it on record. It was just a
comment.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not going on record.
SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: If it is expunged, then I thank you, Sir.
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯ÖןÖ: ÁÖß ´ÖÆü´Öæ¤ü ‹0 ´Ö¤ü®Öß…
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Not recorded.
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
333
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Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
334
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5T/HMS-VKK/8.30
ÁÖß ´ÖÆü´Öæ¤ü ‹0 ´Ö¤ü®Öß (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : µÖÆü ´Ö•Ö²ÖæŸÖ “Öß•Ö ÆüÖê®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ´Öï ŸÖÖê ÛúÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú
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†Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖê ´Ö•Ö²ÖæŸÖ ¾Ö ŸÖÖÛúŸÖ¾Ö¸ü ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖß Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öï †Ö¯Ö ÃÖê ‡•ÖÌÖ•ÖŸÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ… ²ÖÆãüŸÖ-
²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ…
(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
ہم ۔ہيشکر کا آپ صاحب، نيرميچئ یڈپٹ: ) شيپرد اتر (یمدن ۔ےا محمود جناب
لئے، کے کرنے فائٹ سے رزميريٹ آج کہ ہے ہي موقع اور ںيہ جمع پر ہاںي لوگ
ريبغ کرنا نٹيويپر کو رزميريٹ ۔ںيہ گئے الئے بلس دو لئے کے نشنيويپر کے اس
ضرورت یک وچپريا ہولسٹک کيا ںيم اس ۔ہے ںينہ ممکن کے پروچيا ہولسٹک
کمار یاشون نئريس ہمارے ۔چاہتا ںينہ کرنا بات ادہيز بہت ںيم بارے اس ںيم ۔ہے
ںيہ یجنون ں،يہ منلسيکر لوگ ہي ۔ايک ذکر کا وںيجہاد نے یج یٹليج ادهر اور یج
۔ںيہ یجہاد ہم کہ ںيہ کرتے یدعو ہي خود ںيم بارے اپنے لوگ وہ ۔ںيہ پاگل اور
ں،يہ رہے کر سپورٹ یکٹليڈائر-ان کو ان ہم تو ايل مان یجہاد ںيانہ یبه نے ہم اگر
یجہاد وقت اس اگر ۔ہے کام مقدس بہت ہے، عبادت تو جہاد ۔حيصح نہ یکٹليڈائر
کے کر مخالفت یک رزميرٹيٹ کام، کا جہاد ہوں رہا کر ںيم ۔ہوں ںيم تو ہے یکوئ
نے ہندوستان ںيم ايدن ۔کے کر چال کيتحر ںيم ہندوستان پورے خالف کے اس اور
خالف کے رزميريٹ ںيم ايدن ۔تها ہوا ںينہ ںيکہ تک آج ںيم ايدن جو ہے ايک کام وہ
لوگ الکهوں پر وليل ماس کنيل ں،يہ ہوئے نارسيميس اور ںيہ یہوئ کانفرنسز یبڑ
کہ ہو یکهائ قسم نے انہوں کر اٹها یانگل یک شہادت اور ہوں گئے نکل پر سڑکوں
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
335
ںيکہ ںيم ايدن اور ہے ہوا ںيم بهارت شيد یاس صرف ہي ۔گے ںيلڑ سے مرزيريٹ ہم
ہي اور سکتا ہو ںينہ یکوئ یجہاد بڑا سے ہم ۔جہاد ںيہ رہے کر ہم تو ۔ہوا ںينہ
اسالمک ۔ےيجوڑ سے اسالم یہ اورنہ ےيبتائ مت یجہاد آپ کو ان ۔ںيہ مکار
ادهر اور یبه سے ادهر سنا، تبہمر نيت-دو ںيم بهر دن آج نے ںيم شبد ہي رسٹ،يريٹ
۔یبه سے
نٹسينڈميام کچهہ ںيم اس ۔ںيہ رہے آ کر لے الء نئے آپ کہ ہي بات یدوسر
صاحب راجہ۔یڈ سےيج ں،يہ کئے شيپ ہاںي نے دوستوں ہمارے جو ساتهہ، کے
ہونا ضرور سسٹم کا یاکاؤنٹبلٹ ںيم ساتهہ کن،يل ۔ہوں کرتا سپورٹ کو اس ںيم ۔نے
ہے، ہوتا وگيدرپ کا الء ہر کا قانون ہر کہ ہے ايگ کہا سنا، نے ںيم پہلے ۔ےچاہئ
یک کوشش یک اس چاہئے، ہونا ںينہ ہي ۔ہے بات کيٹه گا، جائے ہو یبه کا اس تو
ہي سوال کن،يل ۔گا جائے یبه لڑا خالف کے اس تو ہوگا وگيدرپ اگر اور یگ جائے
اور ہے زيچ یبڑ ہے قانون بڑا گے، ںيائبن قانون یکوئ آپ جب کہ ہے ہوتا دايپ
لئے کے اس ۔چاہئے یہون پن یفٹيس یبڑ تو ںيہ رہے جا لڑنے سے زيچ یبڑ جب
۔چاہئے ہونا انتظام ضرور کا یاکاؤنٹبلٹ
یسار بہت نے وںيساته سب ہمارے تو لئے کے کہنے کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم
کروں سماپت کر کہہ بات یآخر کيا ںيم بارے کے ۔اے۔یآئ۔نيا ۔ںيہ ید کہ ںيبات
بجاج راہل ہمارے ۔ہے یمتيق بہت ٹائم کا ہاؤس ونکہيک لونگا ںينہ ٹائم ادہيز ںيم ۔گا
اور چاہئے یہون زيچ مضبوط ہي ۔ہے یدالئ توجہ طرف یک اس یبه نے صاحب
شنلين بجائے کے یجنسيا شنيگ یسٹيانو شنلين نام کا اس کہ ہوں کہتا تو ںيم
کے یاس ۔چاہئے ہونا طاقتور اور مضبوط اسے اور چاہئے یہون یجنسيا یکورٹيس
۔ہيشکر بہت بہت ۔گا چاہوں اجازت سے آپ ںيم ساتهہ
"شد ختم"
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
336
ÁÖß ´ÖÖêÆü´´Ö¤ü †¤üß²Ö (ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖϤêü¿Ö) : •Ö®ÖÖ²Ö ×›ü¯™üß “ÖîµÖ¸ü´Öê®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ-²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ… †Ö•Ö
µÖê ¤üÖê ×²Ö»Ö »ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹ Æïü וÖÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ÛúÖê †®Ö»ÖÖò±ãú»Ö ‹×Œ™ü×¾Ö™üß ×¯ÖϾÖë¿Ö®Ö ×²Ö»Ö ÛúÆüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï®Öê
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دو ہي آج ۔ہيشکر بہت بہت صاحب، نيرميچئ یڈپٹ جناب ):شياترپرد( بياد محمد جناب
نے ںيم ۔ہے ايگ کہا بل نشنيويپر یکٹوٹيا فل انالء کو کيا ںيم جس ںيہ گئے الئے بل
سمجهہ تو نشنيويپر مجهے ہے؟ کہاں نشنيويپر ںيم بل اس کهوںيد ،یک کوشش بہت
ہي اور قانون، اور کيا بعد کے اس اور" ٹاڈا" ،"پوٹا" کہ ايآ ںيم سمجهہ ہي ا،يآ ںينہ ںيم
ںيم بل دوسرے نے آپ شکل یک نشنيويپر ۔جائے پکڑا مجرم کہ ايگ ايال لئے اس قانون
کام ساتهہ کے ۔اے۔یپ۔وي سے سال 4 ديشا کہ ہوں سمجهتا ہي ںيم کنيل ہے، ید ضرور
یادتيز ساتهہ کے یمائنارٹ ںيم قانون کے" پوٹا" کہ ہوئے سمجهاتے ہي اور کرتے کرتے
کے ۔یپ۔جے۔یب پهر ديشا سيکانگر بعد کے واقعے کے یممبئ کنيل ہے، رہا ہو ظلم اور
رايم اور تها ہلکا" پوٹا" تمهارا کہ یہوئ شروع پر بات اس بحث ہاںي اور یگئ آ ںيم دباؤ
ساتهہ کے قانون ہر کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا بات یک حق کے آپ ںيم ۔ہے مضبوط ادہيز قانون
منٹيپارل آج ںيم کہ ہے ہي تين ہے؟ ايک تين یک اس کہ چاہئے یہون یاکاؤنٹبلٹ اور تين
۔ہوں رہا لڑ زيسيک کے" پوٹا" تک آج کر لے سے 2001 کہ وںيک ہوں ٹهايب لئے اس ںيم
اور ںيہ چکے ہو کے سال 29 اور 27 وہ آج تهے، گئے ليج ںيم عمر یک سال 22 لوگ جو
شبہات و شک کيا ںيم قوم یريم آج باہر کے ہاؤس اس ۔ںيہ یہوئ ںينہ ںيضمانت یک ان
کہنا سے آپ ںيم لئے اس ہے؟ ہوا شروع قصہ سا کون ہي اب کہ ںيہ ہوئے ڈرے وہ ۔ںيہ
؟۔ہے وںيک ہوتا ہي کہ چاہئے ہونا یبه" کاز" عالوہ کے نشنيويپر ںيم اس کہ ہوں چاہتا
لوگ وانےيد اور باؤلے وہ پر طور ینيقي ۔کہئے مت یجہاد کو ان کہ ايگ کہا یابه
کچهہ جو ںيم یممبئ کہ ہے معلوم کو آپ ۔ہے ہوتا کچهہ چهےيپ کے کشنيا ہر کنيل ں،يہ
ہوکر پرموٹ تهے، مجرم جو یسپاہ وہ آج اور یآئ رپورٹ کرشنا یشر رپ اس تها، ہوا
گے؟ ںيپوچه سے کس آپ، گے ںيکر ايک ۔ںيہ کهڑے چهےيپ کے مسلمانوں ںيانہ
یک ان ۔ںيہ ہوئے کهڑے یبه آج والے پولس مجرم سب وہ ہوا، کچهہ جو ںيم گجرات
کے ہاؤس اس ںيم ۔جئےيد انيده یبه طرف یک ان جئے،يک شبہ تهوڑا یبه طرف
ںيم ملک اس آپ ۔کرئے دايپ سدبهاؤنا اور کرئے کوشش آپ کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا عےيذر
نيچه کو یج یگانده سے ہم نے لوگوں جن ۔ےيکروائ پورا کو خواب کے یج یگانده
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340
جانا لے سے وہاں ں،يہ چاہتے اٹهانا سے ہاںي یبه کو کيتحر یک یج یگانده وہ آج ا،يل
۔ںيہ چاہتے
یاپن کو آپ ںيم اور ہے ہي قتيحق ۔ہے رہا کر ہي پاکستان کہ ہے رہا جا ہي کہا
کے پاکستان اور رہا باہر کے ہندوستان سال 14 ںيم ۔ہوں چاہتا بتانا واقعات کے یزندگ
کہ ايک ںينہ پٹيکسيا یکبه نے انہوں ۔رہے ملتے سے مجهہ زيعز لوگ، سے بہت
ہي کو حکومت یک ان کو، ان کہ وںيک ہے سکتا ٹهہا کر بن ملک کولريس کيا ہندوستان
توڑا؟ وںيک کو ہندوستان ا،يبنا وںيک کو پاکستان نے انہوں کہ ہے ايگ ہو مشکل کرنا ثابت
فيچ ہے، بنتا یبه اسٹاف آف فيچ ہے، بنتا یبه صدر مسلمان جہاں ہے ملک وہ ہي
کا پاکستان ۔ہے یبه ٹهتايب ساتهہ کے آپ کر لے حقوق کے برابر اور ہے بنتا یبه جسٹس
کو ہندوستان نے اس کہئے، گروہ کيا کا وانوںيد اي کہئے ۔یآئ۔سيا۔یآئ طبقہ کيا
اور ںيہ چالتے مپيک ہاںي اپنے جو ںيہ لوگ وہ ہي ۔ايد کر انکار سے ماننے کولريس
ہے یبه ہاںي طبقہ کيا ۔ںيہ کهتےيد سے نگاہ یک شبہ و شک طرف یک ملک ہمارے
کولريس کو ہندوستان یبه آج طبقہ وہ نا،يچه سے ہم کو یج یگانده نے جس طبقہ وہ اور
ملک کولريس ہندوستان کہ ہے ہے سمجهتا وہ یبه آج وہ ۔ہے ںينہ اريت لئے کے بنانے
5-10 کو لوگوں ان نے اس ۔ہے ميعظ عوام یک ہاںي قوم، یک ہاںي کنيل ا،يگ بن سےيک
۔گا رہے بنتا اور بنا ملک کولريس ہي ۔ايد ںينہ بڑهنے آگے سے نٹيپرس
یاکاؤنٹبلٹ یک ان مجهے کہ سے صاحب منسٹر ہوم ہوں چاہتا کہنا ہي صرف ںيم
کنيل ہے، ںينہ شبہ یکوئ پر سرکار ۔اے۔یپ۔وي مجهے ۔ہے ںينہ شبہ پر تين یک ان پر،
ہے، یگتن یک وقت ں،يہ زيسيک وںيسيب پاس رےيم ۔ہوں چاہتا پوچهنا ضرور سے ان ںيم
تو ںيضمانت سے سال دو-دو سے، سال نيت نيت یک لوگوں ۔ہوں سکتا کر ںينہ انيب ںيم
پتہ کو آپ ہي ہے، حالت ايک پر گهروں کے ان آج ۔ںيہ یرہ کر ںينہ یسنوائ ںيعدالت ا،يک
۔ہے پتہ مجهے ہے، ںينہ
ايد نايب سايا نے صاحب انتولے کہ ايگ کہا ںيم بارے کے صاحب انتولے ہاںي سر،
اور ہوں چاہتا کہنا بات حق سے آپ ںيم کنيل ہوں، جانتا ںينہ جريپروس ادہيز ںيم ۔ہے
ں،يہ رہے سوچ یوہ لوگ تر ادہيز کے قوم یريم ۔یہوگ یانيب غلط تو کہوں، نہ بات حق
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341
ںيم بجے 11 کو رات دن یاس کہ ہے ہي وجہ یک اس ۔ہے کہا نے صاحب انتولے کل جو
لوگوں کچهہ کہ ايگ کہا ہي بعد کے موت یک کرکرے منتيہ ديشہ کہ اکهيد پر ۔یو۔یٹ نے
ايگ کہا ہي اوپر کے ۔یو۔یٹ ہے؟ یہوت ںينہ وںيک یانکوائر یک اس ۔ںيمنائ اںيخوش نے
پوچها کر بال کلپنگ یک اس اي جائے، ايد کر بند کو نليچ کے ۔یو۔یٹ اس تو اي اب ۔ہے
ںيالئ قانون سخت اتنا کہ ںيہ کہتے ہي لوگ جو آج ۔تهے ہوئے خوش لوگ کون کہ جائے
نے کرکرے منتيہ جب کہ ہے ہيہوتا کنيل ں،يہ تےيل ںينہ نام جئے،يد دبا کو قوم اس کہ
اوپر کے ديشہ اس اور یگئ مچ پکار خيچ پڑے، اچک تو ا،يدکها رخ دوسرا کا ريتصو
لوگوں جن اور ايگ ہو قربان پر ہندوستان وہ شاباش کنيل گئے، لگائے الزام سےيا سےيا
۔ہے قوت یک ہندوستان یہي ۔ايد چهوڑ کر بنا بونا کو ان تهے، لگائے الزام پر اس نے
ہونے نہ سايا سے صورت یکس کو اس ں،يہ رہے ال آپ بل جو کہ گا چاہوں ہي ںيم
ںيکہ کہ ہو نہ سايا ںيکہ اور کهايد ںيم پوٹا نے ہم جو کها،يد ںيم ٹاڈا نے ہم جو جئے،يد
یسيا تو ۔ںيجائ ہو شروع اںيزندگ یک شبہ و شک پهر جائے، ہو شروع شنينئيليا پهر
۔ہے یضرور یبه تين پر اس ہے، یک کوشش نے آپ ںيبندش
ہاؤس اس سے آپ ںيم ہے، کوشش یک بنانے یجنسيا یدوسر یک آپ تک جہاں
شنيٹيزيپرير کے یمائنارٹ لئے کے بنانے بہتر کو اس کہ گا کروں گزارش عےيذر کے
نيت ۔یآئ۔یب۔یس ں،يہ یجنسيا یبه یجتن پاس کے آپ سےيج ہو، نہ سايا ۔ےيبڑهائ کو
یک یکورٹيس یک آپ اور ںينہ یبه یکوئ ںيم اس ہے، راء سےيج یدوسر مسلمان، عدد
آپ جب کم سے کم تو ۔ہے ںينہ مسلمان یبه کيا ںيم اس ہے افسوس ہے، یسريت جو
ايسون کو جس تها، خواب جو کا یگانده اندرا تو ں،يہ رہے بنا یجنسيا شنلين ہي جو
سے دس کہ ہے پڑها یبه ںيم اخباروں نے ںيم کو جن اور ہے کہا یبه نے یج یگانده
کرتا درخواست سے آپ عےيذر کے ہاؤس اس ںيم ،یہوگ ینمائندگ یک نٹيپرس پندرہ
اور ںيقوم بس ںيم اس ہو، پيش کا اس جو کہ جائے یک توجہ یک اس ںيم اس کہ ہوں
۔ہو اندازہ کا تياہم یاسک اور یشئنس یفيا یک اس سے جس ں،يآئ اںيبرادر سب
ہيشکر بہت بہت کنيل ا،يل لے کا آپ وقت ہوں، گزار شکر اور مشکور بہت ںيم
۔جناب کا، آپ
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342
"شد ختم"
SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Thank you, Mr.
Deputy Chairman, Sir, for allowing me to take part in this debate which
was, for a long time, a battle between the barristers and, later on,
between the luminaries of law. I am only a peasant activist, but my
special qualifications for taking part in this debate was that as early as in
1986, I was detained under the then National Security Act which was the
predecessor of both TADA and POTA! And a former Chief Minister, who
is now a member of the Cabinet, had, actually, levelled a charge of
waging war against the lawfully established State for the mere fact that I
reclaimed remunerative prices for cotton for the farmers of India. The
time is changed, Sir, and now, the same people are talking in an entirely
different language. I am, of course, supporting both the NIA and the
UAPA Bills because the Government or the ruling party thinks that we
need to give a show of solidarity and the Opposition parties have also
agreed with that. I support the NIA, and also the UAPA. But my inner
voice and my conscience howls out that what I am doing is entirely
wrong, that what the Government should have prepared was, definitely,
as Shri Rajeev Chandrasekhar said, a very strong anti-terrorism or
counter-terrorism Act. If you think that the POTA was mistaken because
it had a communal bias, you could correct that communal bias. But,
you can't abdicate the responsibility of establishing law and order in the
country. Sir, this scene we have seen earlier in the country; in 1962, at
the end of one bout of bhaism, in 'Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai', we, the nation
faced a humiliation.
(Contd. by TMV/5W)
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343
-MKS-TMV-DS/5W/8.40
SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (CONTD.): At that time, the
Defence Minister had literally to be shooed out--this time we had a very
gentleman Home Minister who resigned on his own--and a new Defence
Minister had to be called from Maharashtra and our old Home Minister
had to go back to Maharashtra. Now, we have got a new Home
Minister, who was the Finance Minister, whose possible qualifications are
that he comes from a region with a geographical proximity with terrorist
outfits like the LTTE.
I would like to make some bullet points because of shortage of
time. As regards the question of human rights, even the Prime Minister
said that there had to be some kind of an exception made to the rule of
human rights. I would like to take the position that anybody who takes
arms against a lawfully established State abdicates his right to any claim
to human rights and he can, at the best, claim to be treated under the
Geneva Convention applicable only to prisoners of war. Therefore, all
talks of human rights, etc., are irrelevant, as far as dealing with terrorists
is concerned.
I would like to make one more point. We have the new ULAPA
which is certainly an improvement of the POTA, in the sense that POTA
did not have the advantage of 26th November. The drafters of this Bill
definitely have the advantage and, therefore, they have plagiarised from
POTA, but expanded the definition to include some of the more recent
experiences. It still remains essentially like a general paper on the
battles fought in the past. We are still trying to fight the battle with
terrorism which has already happened. We are not looking forward to
Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008
344
what is going to happen and the Bill does not provide for it at all. I
don't want to look like a prophet. But I am warning the entire House
that 20th January when the new President takes over charge in the
United States and if he tries anything like withdrawal of forces from Iraq
and Afghanistan, then the global terrorists in a frenzy of victory are going
to launch a massive campaign of terrorism all throughout the country,
and we are still not prepared at all. We don't know what kind of shape
it will take. Therefore, I would say that this Bill is good as far as it goes.
It does not go much forward; it looks backward; it does not look
forward. I hope the new Home Minister will prepare India to face the
calamities that I expect will happen soon after the 20th January, that is
just about 20 days' time. Thank you.
(Ends)
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´Öë, ¾ÖÆü Ùêü™ü ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü ÛúÖê ¤êüÝÖÖ, Ùêü™ü ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü ±úÖò¸ü¾Ö›Ôü Ûú¸ü ¤êüÝÖß… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ
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346
›üÖ0 ‹ê•ÖÖ•ÖÌ †»Öß (ײÖÆüÖ¸ü) : ÃÖ¸ü, וÖÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ global terrorism ÃÖê ¯Ö¸êü¿ÖÖ®Ö Æïü,
ˆÃÖß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ domestic terrorism ÃÖê ³Öß ¯Ö¸êü¿ÖÖ®Ö Æïü… ׯ֔û»Öê ŸÖß®Ö-“ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê
¯Öæ¸êü ´Öã»Ûú ´Öë •ÖÆüÖÓ-ŸÖÆüÖÓ ²Ö´Ö-¬Ö´ÖÖÛêú ÆüÖêŸÖê ¸üÆêü †Öî¸ü ˆ®Ö´Öë ‹Ûú ÜÖÖÃÖ »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ×®Ö¿ÖÖ®ÖÖ ²Ö®ÖÖµÖÖ
ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ¯Öæ¸êü ´Öã»Ûú ´Öë ˆÃÖÛêú ŸÖÖ¸ü ÛúÖê •ÖÖê›ÍüÛú¸ü פüÜÖÖ ×¤üµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ… ‡ÃÖß ²Öß“Ö ‹Ûú †±úÃÖ¸ü ®Öê
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£Öê, ¾Öê ‹Ûú ‡Ô´ÖÖ®Ö¤üÖ¸ü †Öî¸ü ÃÖÖÆüÃÖß †±úÃÖ¸ü £Öê †Öî¸ü †¯Ö®Öß ›üµÖæ™üß ×®Ö³ÖÖ®Öê ´Öë ¾Öê ‡¬Ö¸ü-ˆ¬Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà
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×Ûú ´ÖãÃÖ»Ö´ÖÖ®ÖÖë Ûêú •ÖÌÆü®Ö ´Öë µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ÝÖæÓ•Ö ü̧Æüß Æîü ×Ûú ÛúÆüà ¾Öê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü Ûêú ²Ö•ÖÖ‹ ×ÛúÃÖß
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¾ÖÆü ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ¤æü¸ü Ûú¸êü… Ûú»Ö †®ŸÖã»Öê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê ‹Ûú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ, ´Öï®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ÃÖã®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà,
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('5y/vnk' ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)
-AKA/VNK-RG/5Y/8.50
›üÖ. ‹ê•ÖÖ•ÖÍ †»Öß (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ×ÛúÃÖ®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê call פüµÖÖ £ÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü ‹Ûú ÃÖ¸ü²Ö¸üÖÆü £Öê, Æü¸ü •ÖÝÖÆü
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•ÖÝÖÆü •ÖÖ†Öê †Öî¸ü ŸÖã´Ö ±ú»ÖÖÓ •ÖÝÖÆü •ÖÖ†Öê, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ¾Öê ÛúÖî®Ö-ÃÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ £Öê, ו֮ÆüÖë®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê
provoke ×ÛúµÖÖ ×Ûú ¾Öê ŸÖß®ÖÖë †±úÃÖ¸ü ‹Ûú Æüß ÝÖÖ›Íüß ´Öë ÃÖ¾ÖÖ¸ü Æãü‹ †Öî¸ü ‹êÃÖß •ÖÝÖÆü ¯ÖÆãÓü“Ö ÝÖ‹,
•ÖÆüÖÓ ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü ®ÖÆüà •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ £ÖÖ µÖÖ ®ÖÆüà •ÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏÖêÝÖÏÖ´Ö £ÖÖ (ÃÖ´ÖµÖ Ûúß ‘ÖÓ™üß),
»Öê×Ûú®Ö ¾Öê ÝÖ‹… ŸÖßÃÖ¸üß “Öß•Ö µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÃÖê Ûãú”û ¬Ö´Ö×ÛúµÖÖÓ ×´Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß £Öß, ŸÖÖê ¾Öê
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ÛúÖî®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ £Öê, ו֮ÖÃÖê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¬Ö´Ö×ÛúµÖÖÓ ×´Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß £Öß… µÖê ÃÖÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖë confusion ¯Öî¤üÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß
Æîü… ˆ®ÖÛêú post-mortem Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ÛúÆüÖÓ ÆîüÓ, ˆ®ÖÛêú forensic report ÛúÆüÖÓ Æïü… ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖ™Òü
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ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ÃÖÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖêÓ •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖß Æîü ×Ûú ˆÃÖÛêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü (ÃÖ´ÖµÖ Ûúß ‘ÖÓ™üß)… ˆ®ÖÃÖê
×Æü±úÖ•ÖŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ¯Öæ”ûÖ •ÖÖ‹ ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ Æãü†Ö…
ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö conclude Ûúßו֋…
ü›üÖ. ‹ê•ÖÖ•Ö †»Öß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡ÃÖ “Öß•Ö ÛúÖê ¯Öæ”û Ûú¸ü clear Ûú¸ü ×»ÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖ×Ûú ‹Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ
²Ö›Íüß community Ûêú ²Öß“Ö •ÖÖê ²Ö¤üÝÖã´ÖÖ®Öß Æãü‡Ô Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ¤æü¸ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹… ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)
سے global terrorism لوگ ہم سے طرح جس سر، : )بہار (یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر
۔ںيہ شانيپر یبه سے domestic terrorism لوگ ہم سے طرح یاس ں،يہ شانيپر
ان اور رہے ہوتے دهماکے بم تہاں جہاں ںيم ملک پورے سے سال چار نيت پچهلے
جوڑ کو تار کے اس ںيم ملک پورے اور ايگ ايبنا نشانہ کو لوگوں خاص کيا ںيم
فاش راز کچهہ عےيذر کے شنيگ یسٹيانو نے افسر کيا چيب یاس ۔ايگ ايد دکها کر
تهے افسر وہ کنيل ،یگ کرے عدالت تو صلہيف ہي ہے؟ غلط اي ہے حيصح وہ ۔ايک
تو نہ وہ تهے، افسر وہ ۔تهے صاحب سالسکر اي صاحب آمٹے اي صاحب کرکرے
کے یجات یريم اي تهے دار رشتہ رےيم نہ تهے، والے ماننے کے مذہب رےيم
ادهر وہ ںيم نبهانے یوٹيڈ یاپن اور تهے افسر یساہس اور مانداريا کيا وہ تهے،
۔یگئ ہو موت یک ان ںيم کياٹ یممبئ ۔تهے کهتےيد ںينہ ادهر
ہے؟ رہا لے ںينہ نام یکوئ کا کانسٹبل کيا اس: راؤ ہنومنت ۔یو یشر
کہنا ہي رايم ۔ہے یگئ جان ايدن یسار ں،يہ رہے لے نام لوگ سب :یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر
کے واد آتنک وہ ںيکہ کہ ہے یہر گونج بات ہي ںيم ذہن کے مسلمانوں کہ ہے
ہي کہ چاہئے کو سرکار لئے اس ۔ںيگئےہ ہو ںينہ تو شکار کے سازش یکس بجائے
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348
ںيم ا،يد انيب کيا نے صاحب انتولے کل ۔کرے دور کو اس وہ ہے، وژنيکنف جو
تک ہاںي ہوا، بوال بہت پر انيب کے ان ۔کهايد ںيم پروںيپ ں،ينہ سنا انيب کا ان نے
ہوئے، مانتے کو بات یک ان اگر ۔جهاڑا پلڑا سے اس یبه نے یپارٹ سيرکانگ کہ
ہوئے مانتے کو بات یک ان اگر تهے، رہے بول بات یک ذہن کے مسلمانوں وہ
حملہ یواد آتنک کہ یآئ کال کو ان وقت جس کہ جائے ہو ٹيگ یسٹيانو اتنا صرف
تهے، سربراہ کيا وہ ا،ته ايد کال کو ان نے کس تهے؟ رہے کر ايک وہ ہے، ايگ ہو
تم جاؤ، جگہ فالں تم کہ تها کرنا ليڈ کو ان تها، ںينہ یضرور جانا کو ان جگہ ہر
کے ان نے جنہوں تهے، لوگ کون وہ کنيل جاؤ، جگہ فالں تم اور جاؤ جگہ فالں
provoke پہنچ جگہ یسيا اور ہوئے سوار ںيم یگاڑ یہ کيا افسر نوںيت وہ کہ ايک
یک وقت(--- تها پروگرام کا جانے ںينہ اي تها ںينہ جانا ديشا وک ان جہاں گئے،
۔گئے وہ کنيل ---)یگهنٹ
وہ تو ں،يته یرہ مل اںيدهمک کچهہ سے پہلے کو ان کہ ہے ہي زيچ یسريت
confusion ںيبات یسار ہي ۔ںيته یرہ مل اںيدهمک کو ان سے جن تهے، لوگ کون
forensic report یک ان ہے، کہاں رپورٹ یک مارٹم پوسٹ کے ان ۔ںيہ یکرت دايپ
یہون magisterial enquiry یک ان سے حساب کے نوليا پولس مہاراشٹر ۔ہے کہاں
،یپتن یک ان ۔ہے کہاں رپورٹ یک اس تو ،یہوئ اگر ،یہوئ ںينہ اي یہوئ وہ چاہئے،
بات کچهہ ايک کہ جائے پوچها سے ان ا،يک برداشت کو صدمے سارے نے جنہوں
کہ ںيہ یجانت ںيبات یسار وہ ہے، یہوت ہمراز یک شوہر اپنے یويب ہر کہ وںيک ،یهت
پوچها ساتهہ کے حفاظت سے ان ---)یگهنٹ یک وقت(--- ہے رہا ہو ايک ساتهہ کے اس
۔ہوا ايک کہ جائے
۔جئےيک کنکلوڈ آپ :یپت سبها اپ یشر
بہت کيا تاکہ جائے، ايل کر کلئر کر پوچهہ کو زيچ اس مہودے، :یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر
۔ہيشکر ۔جائے ہو دور وہ ہے، یہوئ یبدگمان جو چيب کے یونٹيکم یبڑ
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349
"شد ختم"
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THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Mr.
Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am grateful to the hon. Members who have
participated in this discussion. Everybody has supported the idea
behind the two Bills. On the UPA side, it is a whole-hearted and an
unconditional support. The BJP has given a critical support. The Left
has given a qualified support. My friend, Shri Surinder, has given a
passionate support to the Bill. So, in a sense, everybody supports the
idea, although there are reservations about one or two aspects of the
two Bills. As I said, I respect every reservation. I will try to answer
them, though my friends, Shri Kapil Sibal, Shri Ashwani Kumar, Dr.
Abhishek Singhvi and others, have answered these objections. I will
also try to answer these objections to the best of my ability. But
notwithstanding reservations and our answers to them, at the end of the
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day, my appeal is, let us vote these two Bills unanimously so that a
clear message goes to the people of India that Parliament of India is
vigilant and will uphold the sovereignty, liberty and security of the people
of India. At the end of the day, we should not appear to be a divided
House. We should not speak in different voices. We have exchanged
our views. We have understood each other. But at the end of the day,
we must vote these two Bills unanimously.
Sir, let me once again clarify a few aspects which, apparently,
bother people's minds, including the last remark made by Shri Amar
Singh. The Indian jurisprudence is based on a fundamental principle
that every man is presumed innocent until proved guilty. However
heinous the crime, that principle is an unalterable principle. And, I would
refer presently to what the Chief Justice of India said a few days ago.
When there is a terrorist crime and terrorists, or, their accomplices and
abettors of terrorists, are apprehended, the people expect the
Government to be able to investigate the offences efficiently and quickly,
bring the culprits before a court and punish them swiftly.
(Continued by 5Z)
TDB/5Z/8.55
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.) If the process of investigation, trial
and punishment drags for 10 or 12 or 13 years, and at the end, some
are punished, many are not punished, and even the punishment does
not turn out to be a deterrent punishment, the people will not have faith
in the criminal justice system to deliver justice, nor will they have faith in
the Government's ability to protect the liberty and the security of the
people. So, the three main objectives of the two Bills are, speedy and
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efficient investigation, fair and speedy trial and deterrent punishment. If
we keep these three objectives in mind, these two Bills fall in place. But,
before I explain the contents of the Bills, I wish to say one other thing.
TADA, POTA, MCOCA in a State, UAPA here, these are not preventive
laws. These are punitive laws. These laws spring into action only after
the crime is committed or when an attempt is made to commit a crime
or in one or two cases, preparation is made to commit a crime. The
jehadi terrorist is not deterred by these laws. He is ready to die; he is
prepared to kill. If we believe that POTA will deter a jehadi terrorist, we
are living in a make-believe world. No punitive law deters the terrorists.
The punitive law is helpful only to punish the terrorists. So, I don't agree
with the theory put forward by one or two hon. Members that a strong
law will deter the terrorists. Strong law deters ordinary people from
straying into crime, or, even habitual criminals from committing blatant
crimes. But, these laws don't deter a jehadi terrorist. He is prepared to
die. This 20-year old boy, not even a full-blown man, who has been
apprehended in Mumbai came here prepared to die. And, according to a
statement, he was prepared to die because somebody promised him
one-and-a-half lakh Pakistani rupees to take care of his family.
Therefore, Sir, do these two Bills meet these three objectives? First,
speedy investigation. The NIA, I respectfully submit, meets the objective.
We set up an Agency. We confine its jurisdiction only to eight Acts, no
more. Eight Acts and no more. It is not like the CBI, it is not like the
FBI. It is confined to eight Acts, and the common threat that runs
through the eight Acts is terror and terrorism. These are eight Acts. We
will keep it as a lean and a fit agency. We will staff it by young energetic
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officers who are well-versed in investigation, who have a proven track
record in investigation, and we will try the case in a Special Court. The
Chief Justice will nominate the Special Judge. The presiding officer of
the Special Court will continue with the trial, notwithstanding that he
reaches the age of superannuation, so that he will complete the trial of
the case by a date to be specified, if he crosses the age of
superannuation. So, the National Investigation Agency Bill, in my view,
meets the objective of a speedy investigation of the case. Now, are we
encroaching upon the States' powers? I respectfully submit, we are not.
The Act has been carefully drafted. What we say is, the FIR will be filed
in a police station; it will be transmitted to the State Government, who
shall forthwith send it to the Central Government; the Central
Government, may, having regard to the gravity of the offence and other
relevant factors, direct that the NIA should investigate the case.
(Contd. by 6A-kgg)
kgg/6a/9.00
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (contd.): All other cases will remain with the
State agencies. I have no plans to take on hundreds of cases. My
device is that there should be no cases of terrorism to be investigated. If
there are cases of terrorism and terrorist crimes to be investigated, it is
not my intention to take on everything under the NIA. We will only take
the gravest cases which have inter-State or international ramifications.
The rest will be left to the State agencies.
When we take on a case, we expect the State agencies to
cooperate with the NIA. The NIA, in turn, can ask the State agencies to
associate with the investigation. The NIA can also, after some time,
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having regard to the gravity, return the case to the State agencies
saying, 'This is not necessary for me to investigate, you please continue
the investigation.' So, this is not encroaching upon the States'
autonomy; it is respecting the States' autonomy and, only to the extent
necessary, the NIA takes over. But, I believe, more often than not, the
NIA will ask the State agencies to associate to itself. The problem with
the amendment proposed by a section in this House to divide the
Schedule into two is, if you put the Unlawful Activities Act in the Second
Schedule and mandate association of the State agency, there could be
cases---let me not talk about the past---where the local police is
involved with the terrorist crime and there is a cover up, and, therefore,
it might hamper the investigation rather than assist an investigation.
There have been cases in the past. We know those cases; I shall not
name them for fear of provoking another debate. There could be cases
where the local police could be involved in a cover up of the terrorist
act.
Therefore, I think, what we have done is a correct thing. I think,
the structure that I have explained is a correct structure, and I request
the hon. Members to kindly support the NIA Bill. Sir, all other provisions
of this Bill are normal standard provisions. An appeal will lie to a division
bench, and the appeal should be disposed of within three months. There
is no other unusual provision in this Bill. Nobody has brought any
unusual provisions. Therefore, the NIA Bill deserves universal support.
(Interruptions) Please, I am not yielding. Let me complete and at the end
I will answer all the questions.
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As far as the UAPA is concerned, as I said, there is a section
which believes that POTA must be brought back. Another section,
including within the UPA, strongly believes that POTA cannot be brought
back under any circumstances. Someone pointed out that I was the
author of TADA. I was the author of TADA too, I agree. But, I was also
part of the Government which repealed TADA. I was also part of the
Government which repealed TADA because we found that TADA would
be misused. We did not renew TADA. POTA was brought through a
Joint Session of Parliament, not by a great consensus. POTA was
brought by a razor-thin majority in a Joint Session of Parliament. The
new Government decided to repeal POTA. Now, we are not going into
the wisdom of bringing the law or the wisdom of repealing the law. In
view of the very strong opinions on the subject, we decided that the
best course is not to bring back POTA in any form. So, we have the
UAPA. We took to UAPA, we worked on the UAPA, and we have added
provisions which, I believe, strengthen the trial and the prosecution, and
punishment of the offence. I think, the provisions that we have added
are sufficiently strong, sufficiently stringent, without trampling upon the
fundamental human rights and without violating the very fundamental
principle that even the offender involved in the most heinous crime is
entitled to a fair trial with substantive due processes.
Now, what have we done on this Bill? We have defined the
terrorist act lifting it from the universal definition which is adopted in the
United Nations Resolution. We have included funding of terrorism as
crime, we have included organising a terrorist camp as crime, and we
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have included recruiting any person for committing a terrorist act as
crime.
(Contd. by 6b)
KLS/6B-9.05
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD): We have placed restrictions on the
bail provision. Section 167 provides for 15, 90 and 60 days. What we
have done is that we have made 30,90 and 90 days. Since there is no
amendment proposed to that I assume everybody has accepted it. Then
we have said -- this is some controversy here -- if it is not possible to
complete the investigation within the said period of 90 days, the court
may if it is satisfied with the report of the Public Prosecutor indicating
the progress of the investigation and the specific reasons for the
detention of the accused beyond the said period, extend the said period
by up to 180 days. This was not in POTA, look at the POTA provision,
POTA provision is a very different provision. The POTA provision said
that you shall go beyond 90 days. Here we have given the power to the
court, the court may if it is satisfied. Secondly, the POTA provision said,
go beyond 90 days, it did not put a cap. Here we have put a cap and
said, 'cannot go beyond 180 days'. We are trying to strike a balance.
There will be cases, of all cases, there will be some cases where the
charge-sheet cannot be filed in 90 days, it might require 100 days, it
might require 110, but if the investigation has progressed and there are
good reasons why the prosecuting agency requires 10 days more or 15
days more, I mean, the court should have the power to consider every
thing and grant them ten days. Then we have said that in a bail
application the prosecutor shall be heard, I do not think anyone can
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complain about that provisions, which means ex parte order cannot be
given and prosecutor must be given a right to say what he wants to
say. And then we have said that if on a perusal of case diary or on a
report made under Section 173, the court has reason to believe that the
accusation is prima facie true, only in those cases the bail is refused.
Now the bail is refused under the ordinary criminal law. In case of a
murder, invariably bail is refused, bail is never granted, just because the
trial goes on for three years, no one says that a person accused of
murder should have a right to bail. That is the matter which the court
has to weigh having regard to the case diary and the investigation
report, the court will weigh the matter and say that you are accused of
murder but having looked at the case diary and the report I am refusing
bail. So, such an offender has to remain in jail until the trial is over.
That is an unusual provision. But the court may come to the opposite
conclusion, having perused the case diary and the report, although you
are accused of murder, I will let you out on bail subject to the following
conditions, you shall stay here, shall report to the police station, you
shall provide surety. These are not unusual provisions. I think some
people thought that refusing bail is an unusual provision, but it is not.
For heinous crimes, even today bail is refused until the case is
completely tried and the court reaches its conclusions. So, there is
nothing unusual about it. Then, Sir, we have provided that a rebuttable
presumption, what is in common language called an adverse inference
can be drawn in certain cases. Now what are the cases that we have
provided, where arms, explosives, or other substances were recovered
from the possession of the accused and there is a reason to believe that
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such an arm or explosives were used in the commission of the offence?
Where the very arms or where the very explosives which are used in the
commission are recovered from the accused, that is one circumstance,
the second circumstance is where it is proved through the evidence of
an expert that fingerprints of the accused or rather definite evidence
such as DNA, bloodstains, that is not there but that is a definite
evidence, suggesting the involvement of the accused in the offence were
found where - at the site of the offence, on the scene of the crime, not
in his house, not in the village, not a hundred miles away, if you find
fingerprints, bloodstains, DNA evidence at the site of the crime, in these
two circumstances we say the court will draw a rebuttable presumption
and under Section 4 of the Evidence Act, it is a presumption only until
the contrary is proved.
(Contd by 6C)
SSS/6C/9.10
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Why are we saying this? It is
because in most cases, in criminal law, the accused can remain silent.
He need not go into the box. He need not let in any evidence at all.
What we are doing here is, in a terrorist crime, in one or two of these
circumstances which are explained, one, where arms and explosives are
recovered from the possession of the accused or where finger prints or
other definitive evidence are recovered from the crime scene, we will
draw this presumption, but you are at liberty to disprove this fact and,
therefore, the court will, then, have to accept that it is disproved. In this
case alone, we say an adverse inference should be drawn. This is not
an unusual provision. This is an over-rule of evidence. Going back to
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358
the Evidence Act which, I think, if I remember right, my memories are
right, 1872 rule of evidence has been there. It is not an unusual rule of
evidence at all. Finally, Sir, we have incorporated a very salutary
provision. To the best of our knowledge -- I don't know, I may be
corrected by the Law Minister or the Law Secretary later -- it is the first
time we are introducing this. In a prosecution under the UAPA, now, it
is the executive Government which registers the case to a police officer.
It is the executive Government which investigates the case through an
investigating agency, namely, the police department. It is the executive
Government which sanctions under section 45. Therefore, there is a fear
that a vindictive or a wrong executive Government could register a case,
investigate and sanction prosecution. There is a fear. Maybe, it is not a
fear that is entirely justified but you can't say that it is entirely unjustified.
So, what are we doing? The executive Government can register the
case because no one else can register a case. The executive
Government, through its agency, can investigate the case. But, before
sanction is granted under 45 (1) we are interposing an independent
authority which will review the entire evidence, gathered in the
investigation and then make a recommendation whether this is a fit case
of prosecution. So, here, we are bringing a filter, a buffer, an
independent authority who has to review the entire evidence that is
gathered and, then, make a recommendation to the State Government
or the Central Government, as the case may be, a fit case for sanction.
I think, this is a very salutary safeguard. All sections of the House
should welcome it. This is a biggest buffer against arbitrariness which
many Members spoke about. Sir, these are the features in the Bill. I
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know that Surinder asked about why you are including 489 E. Well, I
think, Arun had the answer. I told you the answer. 489 A to 489 E are
one part of the whole chapter, which is dealing with counterfeit currency
notes. You cannot omit that alone. Nobody is going to be charged
with an offence of only 489 E. A man is charged with 489 E is most
likely to be charged with the whole set of offences and all of them are
either life imprisonment or imprisonment up to ten years. I don't think
that is a major point. It is very unlikely that anybody will be charged
with only 489 E. It is possible. Theoretically, yes, but when the
sanction comes, somebody will throw it out. An independent authority
will throw it out and say that this is not a case to be...
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: That will not go to sanction.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: It will be for any prosecution under UAPA.
SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: For a Rs. 100 fine, why will it go to the
sanctioning authority? If the punishment is for more than seven years,
then, only it will go to the sanctioning authority. The law is like that; you
know that.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Please understand. If it is an offence under
UAPA, today, we have said that under section 45, sanction is required. If
it is not an offence under UAPA, if it is an offence under any other Act,
the Scheduled Act we will have to look at the sanctioning provision of
that Act. Let us assume for the sake of argument that 489 E does not
require a sanction. It will be prosecuted in a court and the court can
impose a maximum punishment of Rs. 100. What is the earth-shaking
event that happens if somebody is prosecuted under 489 E and is
punished for Rs. 100? Don't detract from the gravity of the situation
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that we are talking about. Finally, Sir, there is a question, 'why was the
Bill not referred to the Standing Committee?'
(Contd. by NBR/6D)
-SSS/NBR-LT/6D/9.15.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): I think, the all-party meeting on 30th
November resolved that we should quickly pass the laws which are
required for investigation and to strengthen the laws. That is why this
meeting took place on 30th November. We have worked round the clock
to draft this Bill. We have consulted the major political formations in this
House and we have brought forward this Bill. If it would have gone to
the Standing Committee we would not have this law until next February
or, I don't know, even next July. Therefore, it is very necessary and the
hon. Speaker, in his wisdom, in his discretion, decided that it need not
go to the Standing Committee.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: What do you mean when you say that you
will revisit it?
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, no. What I said is that if anybody has
got reservations, I take note of the reservations. We will see how this
law works over the next 3-4 months. If any of these reservations on the
part of those who say the law is not strong enough or reservations on
the part of those who say that the law is an encroachment, we can
revisit the subject in 3 or 4 months. But, at the moment, what we need
is to send a strong message to the country that we are united. We are
acting with unity of purpose. We are making law. We are setting up an
agency and we are determined to bring to book any terrorist who
commits a terrorist crime. Therefore, my earnest appeal to all sections
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of the House is please do not press your amendments. I have taken
note of your amendments. I will try to explain.
Sir, in fact, if I can quickly go through the amendments, now, if
the suo motu power is deleted, then we go back to the CBI provision.
Then, what is the difference between the NIA and the CBI? Therefore,
the suo motu provision cannot be deleted. If the suo motu power for
the NIA is not to be there, we go back to the CBI and Section 6 of the
DSPE. So, there is no difference. Therefore, suo motu provision cannot
be deleted.
Then, if the First Schedule is to split, I have told you the problem.
If you put one Act in the Second Schedule and if, God forbid, there is a
terrorist case in which the local police is trying to cover up that crime,
then, that crime will never be investigated. Therefore, the Schedule
cannot be split.
Then, Sir, there are four amendments given by my friend, Mr.
Sitaram Yechury. I think, he must have drafted them in great haste,
because, if I accept any of these amendments, the sentence does not
read as a complete sentence. I can show it to you.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I have given notice for amendments.
Redrafting has been done by the Secretariat.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: The sentence does not read as a complete
sentence. For example, if the word 'shall' is replaced with the word
'can' and if you delete the last fourteen words, the sentence does not
even read as a sentence. But, I don't think that these are material.
And, finally, Mr. Raja has said that the word 'presumption' must
be deleted. I will explain. The presumption is drawn only under two
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362
extraordinary circumstances -- where a fingerprint is found or DNA
evidence is found or arms or explosives are recovered from the
possession of the accused. In such a case, I think, it is wise for the
court to draw the presumption and oblige the accused to go into the
box and disprove the case, rather than say, 'you can remain silent and I
will then apply the test of beyond reasonable doubt.'
So, I think, Sir, all the amendments should not be pressed now.
We should pass the Bill unanimously. Eternal vigilance is the price of
liberty. People are looking at us. As I speak today, people are
watching at us. People will watch us on television tomorrow. People are
asking, 'Is the Parliament of India the sentinel on TV? Is the Parliament
of India an appropriate sentinel to guard our liberty? We must send a
message that we are united, both in purpose and in action and we will
stand as a sentinel and guard the liberty and security of the people of
this country. Thank you. (Ends)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall, first, take up the National
Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. The question is:
That the Bill to constitute an investigation agency at the national level to investigate and prosecute offences affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of India, Security of State, friendly relations with foreign States and offences under Acts enacted to implement international treaties, agreements, conventions and resolutions of the United National, its agencies and other international organisations and for matters connected therewith or incidents thereto, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.
The motion was adopted.
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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause-by-clause
consideration of the Bill.
Clauses 2 to 5 were added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 6. There are
two amendments (Nos. 1 and 2) by Dr. Maitreyan.
CLAUSE - 6 : Investigation of Scheduled Offences
DR. V. MAITREYAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I move:
That at page 3, line 16 to 19, be deleted.
That at page 3, line 20, the words, bracket and figure "sub-section
(5)", be deleted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall now put amendment (Nos. 1
and 2) to vote:
Amendment Nos. 1 and 2 were negatived. Clause 6 was added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 7. There is
one amendment (No. 3) by Shri Sitaram Yechury and Shri D. Raja.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (WEST BENGAL): Sir, with your permission,
may I make one observation?
These two amendments to clause 7 and 7(a) become relevant only
if the split in the Schedule is approved. What I would suggest to you is,
if this is not approved, those two become infructuous. So, take the
Schedule first. (CONTD. BY USY "6E")
-NBR-USY/VP/5e&5f/9.20& 9.25
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): What I mean to say is that if the
split of the Schedule is not adopted, then clauses 7 and 7(a) become
infructuous. There is no point in going through voting before this.
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(Interruptions) May I explain to you, Sir? Amendment to clause 7,
which I moved, says, "While investigating any offence under the First
Schedule of this Act..." Now, without separating the Schedules into the
First Schedule and the Second Schedule, this amendment is
meaningless. New clause 7(a) will be meaningful only if this House
approves the split in the Schedule into the First Schedule and the
Second Schedule. If the House does not approve of this split, then,
clauses 7 and 7(a) automatically becomes infructuous. I would, therefore,
plead with you that you put this amendment to the Schedule to vote.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, Sitaramji is asking to put the
amendment No. 5 first. If the Schedule is split, then, we will see;
otherwise, that amendment is not carried. So, Sir, put amendment No.
5 first. There is no problem.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up the Schedule first.
The Schedule stands part of the Bill. There is one amendment no. 5 by
Shri Sitaram Yechury.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, I move:
That at page 9, for the existing Schedule, the following be substituted, namely, -
THE FIRST SCHEDULE
The Atomic Energy Act, 1962 (33 of 1962);
The Anti-Hijacking Act, 1982 (65 of 1982);
The Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against Safety of Civil Aviation Act,
1982 (66 of 1982);
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365
The SAARC Convention on (Suppression of Terrorism) Act, 1993 (36
of 1993);
The Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against Safety of Maritime
Navigation and Fixed Platforms on Continental Shelf Act, 2002
(69 of 2002);
The Weapons of Mass Destruction and their Delivery Systems
(Prohibition of Unlawful Activities) Act, 2005 (21 of 2005)
THE SECOND SCHEDULE
The Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 (37 of 1967); The Offences under -
Chapter VI of the Indian Penal Code [sections 121 to 130 (both
inclusive)];
Sections 489-A to 489-E (both inclusive) of the Indian Penal
Code".
Amendment was negatived.
(Contd. by 6g -- pb
PB-SKC-HK/9.30, 9.35& 9.40
The House divided
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Subject to correction:
Ayes : 22 Noes : 77
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366
(Here enter the Division Lists for Ayes and Noes arranged in alphabetical order)
The Amendment was negatived.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put the Schedule to vote:
The Schedule was added to the Bill. Clause 7 was added to the Bill.
Clauses 8 to 26 were added to the Bill. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:
That the Bill be passed.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
(Ends)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put the Unlawful Activities
(Prevention) Amendment Bill, 2008 to vote. The question is,
That the Bill further to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.
The motion was adopted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause-by-clause
consideration of the Bill.
Clauses 2 to 11 were added to the Bill.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 12. There are
five amendments (Nos. 1 to 4) by Shri Sitaram Yechury and (No. 5) by
Shri D. Raja.
CLAUSE 12 - Insertion of new sections 43A to 43F - Power to arrest, search, etc.
SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, I move :
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1. That at page 4, line 48, for the words, "extend the said period up to one hundred and eighty days", the words "need not grant extension beyond ninety days" be substituted.
2. That at page 5, line 44, for the words, "court shall presume, unless the contrary is shown, that the accused has committed such offence", the words "on the basis of such evidence, shall establish the veracity of the offence" be substituted.
3. That at page 6, line 7 for the word, "shall" the word "can" be substituted.
4. That at page 6, lines 7 and 8, the words, "with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three years or with fine or with both" be deleted.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, in the same clause, there is one
amendment (No. 5) by Shri D. Raja.
SHRI D. RAJA: Sir, I move:
5. That at page 5, lines 35 to 45 be deleted.
The House divided.
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Subject to correction:
Ayes : 16
Noes: 89
(Here enter the Division Lists for Ayes and Noes arranged in alphabetical order)
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368
The Amendments were negatived. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put Clause 12 to vote:
Clause 12 was added to the Bill.
Clauses 13 to 17 were added to the Bill. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move:
That the Bill be passed.
The question was put and the motion was adopted.
(Ends)
MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House is adjourned to meet tomorrow
at 11.00 a.m.
---
The House then adjourned at forty-one minutes past nine of the clock till eleven of the clock on Friday, the
19th December, 2008.