During the Vietnam War, General William Westmoreland was...During the Vietnam War, General William...

2 © 2011 The Mackay Roundtable

A winner surrounds themself with people who are good enough to challenge them to be their very best

During the Vietnam War, General William Westmoreland was

reviewing a platoon of paratroopers. As he moved down the ranks, he

asked the troops questions.

“How do you like jumping, son?”

“Love it, sir!” the first corporal bellowed out.

“How do you like jumping?” he asked the next enlisted man.

“The greatest experience in my life, sir!” the soldier shot back.

“How do you like jumping?” he asked the next.

“I hate it, sir,” the GI replied.

“Then why do you do it?” a stunned Westmoreland asked.

“Because I want to be around guys who love to jump, sir!” the soldier

roared back.

l Winners surround themselves with other winners.

l A winner knows that he or she is a winner.

l Winners don’t need second-raters or yes-men to feed their egos.

l Winners are natural leaders. They’re always asking: Are the people

around me going to teach me something new? Are they just clones?

Or are they good enough to challenge me to be my very best?


People want leadership, so we look for those who are professional leaders

In the United States, we sure like generals.

Nine generals have gone on to be President.

Only three generals never held public office prior to the

Presidency: Zachary Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, and Dwight Eisenhower.

When elected, three other presidents were much better known for

their military rather than their political leadership. They were George

Washington, Andrew Jackson, and William Henry Harrison.

Three others—Benjamin Harrison, Hayes, and Garfield—were Civil

War generals. They were more or less professional politicians when they

were elected.

Turning to military leaders for civilian leadership is an American tradi-

tion. In several cases, the results have been spectacular. In others, they

were far from it.

Why do we do it?

It’s because we want leadership, and generals are professional leaders.

They know the white heat of battle. When mistakes translate into body

counts, it pays to know the difference between strategy and tactics.

If we look beyond the gold braid and the famous victories, what are the

qualities that make for leadership?

Marshall Loeb, who became editor-at-large of Fortune magazine, gave a

watershed speech on the “Ten Steps to Effective Leadership.”


You manage things, but you lead people

I’m going to paraphrase his words and update some examples, but the

major points are Loeb’s.

1. Leading is not managing.

The late Grace Hopper, the first woman admiral in the United States

Navy, said, “You manage things, but you lead people.”

2. Leaders have a sense of purpose.

They think in terms of achieving goals. As the world’s #1 goal

scorer, Wayne Gretzky put it this way, “It’s not where the puck is

that counts. It’s where the puck will be.”

3. Leaders have courage.

They make the tough calls. Lincoln fought a war rather than let the

Union dissolve. He stuck with Grant, who took a lot of casualties,

rather than the popular—and cautious—McClellan.

4. Leaders are forceful.

They have a point of view, and they express it clearly. You don’t have

to guess where they stand.

Leaders look beyond the polls. Harry Truman is a lot more popular

today than when he left the Presidency—with a 32 percent approval

rating. Ronald Reagan’s popularity dipped to 46% after the Iran-

Contra affair became known. At roughly the same time, Reagan was

negotiating his landmark gains with the Soviets at Reykjavik.


Great leaders aren’t afraid to make use of other people’s ideas

5. Leaders are consistent.

They inspire trust and confidence because they don’t change horses—

or courses—in midstream.

Loeb cited a former CEO of American Express, Harvey Golub. This

exec made a discovery. He got tired of repeating the same message

over and over. Then it dawned on him. He realized he had actually

achieved a crucial goal. Because of the repetition, the rest of the

employees believed he really meant what he said.

6. Leaders are truthful.

They are truthful even when it hurts. Kennedy took the rap for the

Bay of Pigs. Nixon stonewalled and deceived on Watergate. Followers

accept honest mistakes. They don’t accept lies and cover-ups.

7. Leaders concentrate on a couple of big themes.

Leaders don’t try to do it all. Carter had a cracker-jack mind for

details. Reagan couldn’t remember a detail to save his life. He

succeeded as a leader because he stayed with his program. Reagan

kept it short and simple.

8. Leaders don’t have to pretend they thought of everything themselves.

They aren’t afraid to make use of other people’s ideas. The Japanese

didn’t invent the assembly line. They took over global leadership of

the car industry by studying and then refining American methods.


Great leaders’ personal histories are as inspirational as their achievements are measurable

9. Leaders are made, not born.

They have climbed over obstacles that have held back lesser people.

Their personal histories are as inspirational as their achievements

are measurable.

10. How do you spot a leader?

Look at the people around the leader. We’re back to the paratrooper

who hated to jump. Does the person surround himself with people

who can stand as leaders in their own right?

In the envelope industry, there’s an enduring sentiment. It was eloquently

captured in the caption to a New Yorker cartoon:

“Some people…are born to push the envelope, and some are

born to lick it.”

That boils down to a key question: Are there born leaders…or can you

learn to be a great leader?

I think the answer is itself a combination. There are certainly natural

leaders of all sorts—like Ronald Reagan, Peyton Manning, Colin Powell,

Winston Churchill, Jack Welch, and George Marshall.

There are also moments when everyday human beings can rise above

their station. They can achieve remarkable and unexpected things.

I think, particularly, of the Danish fishermen in 1943. They helped

evacuate 7,220 Danish Jews from the Holocaust.


Great teams often showcase leadership being skillfully handed off from one person to another

Great teams often showcase leadership being skillfully handed off from

one person to another. No case of this was more epic than the first successful

ascent of Mount Everest.

Excitement gripped the world when two men became the first to climb

the Rooftop of the World. It was in May 1953. The intrepid explorers were:

l Edmund Hillary, a New Zealand beekeeper, and

l Tenzing Norgay, his Sherpa guide from Nepal.

They reached the summit of the 29,000-foot peak together. Soon their

names would be known around the world.

During their descent, Hillary slipped and started to fall. But Norgay

immediately dug in his ice axe and braced the rope that held them

together. Except for this quick action, Hillary most certainly would have

fallen to his death.

At the bottom of the mountain, the news media was waiting feverishly.

They soon learned of Hillary’s near accident…and Norgay’s lifesaving

maneuver. “Tell us all about it,” the reporters shouted, focusing on the

modest Sherpa guide.

Norgay looked at them with great calm. In a quiet voice, he replied

simply: “Mountain climbers always help each other.”

Hillary and Norgay were one dynamic duo. Norgay was asked how it felt

to be only the second man to surmount Everest. His sage reply was:


Leadership skills can be learned and mastered

“If it is a shame to be the second man on Mount Everest, then I will

have to live with this shame.”

Can you imagine a more gracious way to acknowledge a seamless

exchange of leadership roles?

So there are those two sorts of leadership. There are also leadership

techniques. These are skills that can even be learned by leaders on an

epic scale, like an Abraham Lincoln. And they can also be mastered by

dedicated managers who want to make the most of whatever leadership

skills they possess.

Lou Holtz is a master of sports psychology.

I became very close to Lou Holtz when I recruited him to become

the head football coach at the University of Minnesota. That was his last

stop before Notre Dame. In two years he not only turned around a dead

program at the U of M, he got us a Bowl invitation for the first time in 25

years.

What makes Lou Holtz special is his combination of three talents:

motivation, organization, and focus.

I remember how he resurrected the football program at the

University of Minnesota. His first step? He ordered new workout sweats for

his players. Printed on the jerseys in large letters was one word: TEAM.

Below in much smaller letters, came a second word—me.

I remember roaming the sidelines with Lou during a pivotal Notre

Dame/Florida State game in 1993. I doubt if I will ever live long enough


When you have two supremely talented opposing forces facing off against each other, leadership is what makes the difference

to experience another contest like it. Here were two supremely talented

opposing forces facing off against each other.

They were evenly matched for talent. But, one team, Notre Dame, could

reach down for something far more rare than mere talent.

When they found it, it was because Lou put it there. Holtz thrives on

these kinds of contests.

A half-hour before the game started, we sat in his private locker room.

I asked him how he felt about this electric atmosphere. He said—almost

casually—“God, how I love this!”

Dick Rosenthal, the Notre Dame athletic director, stopped by to wish

Holtz well a moment later.

“Big game,” said Rosenthal, a point that had not escaped Holtz’s notice.

“Big game?” Lou said, “It’s been big since the first moment I got here,

and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. We’re adding 12,000 new seats

to the stadium. We’ve got a $27 million TV contract now, and it’s just

been renewed. At our pep rally on Friday night, we ran out of space and

had to lock out 7,000 fans.”

Lou went on: “We can handle 2,500 at the pre-game luncheon. We’ve

even got people fighting to get seats for that. Big has been following me

around for so long…What would scare me would be if things around here

suddenly started getting little.”


Make sure that each of your team members is aware of his or her importance in achieving the win

Now the big game with FSU was almost upon him. There had been pep

fests and rallies, luncheons and church services. Then came the music. Lou

Holtz had carved the words to Whitney Houston’s “One Moment in Time”

into the souls of every member of the Notre Dame squad.

Every little touch had one target. He wanted to light a fire under his

team. He wanted to give them a place to go to find that extra something,

over and above athletic ability, they needed to win.

In the locker room the night before the FSU game, Lou reviewed

the opposing players with his team, position by position. He matched

their individual strengths and weaknesses to each of Notre Dame’s own

player’s individual strengths and weaknesses. No sugar-coating. This was

the straight skinny.

Then Coach Holtz wrapped it up by saying, “Now you know about

them. Now you know about us. But what it is most important for you

to know is this: There is no question in my mind I would rather be your

coach. I’d rather be a part of this team, than that team. We are a team;

we care about each other.

“We’re goal oriented, and we didn’t get to be here together in this

room because we won our positions in a lottery. We worked for them. We

are Notre Dame, the greatest tradition in American sports. You are Notre

Dame. And this is our one moment in time.”

The strains of Whitney Houston—who was then an artist in her prime—

echoed through the locker room. Lou passed out copies of the lyrics to each


Have your team visualize the sights, the sounds, and the feeling of victory

of the players. You could literally feel the pulse of 63 totally hyped, superbly

conditioned athletes. They were ready to tear the door from its hinges and

rush onto the field.

But not quite yet.

Then came Lou’s visualization exercises. He asked every team member

to replay his assignment. They reaffirmed the priorities of the entire day

coming up.

What it would feel like before, during, and after the game. They locked

the whole landscape into their minds: the sights, the sounds, the feeling

of victory.

Then came the day of the game.

They were back in the locker room. They’d had a night to swim the

roadmap to victory.

This time the locker room speech was shorter, crisper, more businesslike.

The players still carried the emotional high of the previous night’s meeting.

Now they needed to unload it.

Lou pinpointed the target.

“This is our house,” he says, “and we will not be intimidated.” He was

ready to let them go.

The locker room door finally opened.


Leaders don’t leave momentum to chance; they breathe fire into every detail

Maybe something similar happened in the visitor’s locker room. But it

couldn’t match what Lou had produced. And it didn’t.

Final score: Notre Dame: 31; FSU: 24.

A manic little 153-pound man pacing the sidelines was the turbine

generator behind the victory. This is the steel that forges leadership.

Leaders don’t leave momentum to chance. They breathe fire into every

detail. Or, as Lou Holtz puts it: “The guy who complains about the bounce

of the ball is usually the guy who dropped it.”

Now, I would like to introduce to you our first guest speaker for this

session. Last week, I typed the words “best…leadership…guru” into Google.

In a millisecond, Google returned 29+ million hits. The very first name on

the list was that of John Maxwell.

John has written more than 50 books. Most are focused on leadership.

Many have graced the New York Times Bestseller List. They’ve sold 13

million copies.

You have probably heard John preach in the Hour of Power broadcasts

from the Crystal Cathedral. (Robert Schuller was John’s mentor.)

John’s pulpit ranges wide. You are as likely to hear him speak to an NFL

team or at West Point or a Fortune 500 company.

John is the source of countless quotes that inspire the lives of millions

daily. He has been kind enough to agree to answer some questions about


The first responsibility of a leader is to find out where the people are and connect with them

leadership today for us. Before I pose them, let me give you one standout

quote from John:

“A successful person finds the right place for himself. But a

successful leader finds the right place for others.”

John Maxwell

harvey: John, you have said that leaders must be close enough to relate

to others, but far enough ahead to motivate them. Please give

us some specific pointers on how leaders can remain close to

their people in an authentic way.

John: Well, I think that the law of buy in, in my 21 Irrefutable Laws

of Leadership, is at the essence of what I mean there. People

buy into the leader before they buy in. Leaders come to me

and when they talk about where they want their people to go,

I ask them, “Well, have you found your people?”

Too often, I think, we get on top of the mountain and kind of

raise the flag and say, “Here we are as leaders. Come up here

and join me.” We don’t understand that you’ve got to go to

where the people are.

The first responsibility of the leader isn’t to take people where

they are; the first responsibility is to find out where the people


People won’t go along with you until they get along with you

are and connect with them. When you and I connect with

them, then we can relate to them and we can move them.

My father’s generation said, “Keep a distance from your

people.” What they really were saying is, “If you stay far

enough from people, you won’t get hurt by people; there’ll

probably be a higher respect level. You don’t have to be good

friends with them; you just have to be able to lead them well.”

I have found that that is not true, at least it is not true in my

life. I have found the closer I am, the more I connect with

people. That’s kind of like, “People won’t go along with you

until they get along with you.”

So my thought is that relationships are the foundation of

leadership. Once I’ve established a relationship, and I’ve got

close enough to a person that they really know that I care for

them and they know that they can trust me, then we can start

making the movement we need to make.

I’ve often said that leaders who have just a bias towards action,

as you know, they have to hold the action. They have to hold

the action; they have to walk slowly through the crowd; and

they have to listen, they have to learn; and then, and only

then, can we really lead well.

I think all of the leadership cues that I have in my life with

people, as far as how to lead them, when to lead them, where


In order to lead, you need to be able to walk through the crowd, listen and learn so that you can be able to chart the right course

to lead them, all comes from a sense of walking slowly through

the crowd and listening, learning, and then beginning to kind

of chart the course for the people, where they need to go.

harvey: Wow. I love your comment, “Go to the top of the mountain.

Here we are.” That put a nice smile on my face. I would say

also there’s surely a fine line between staying close to your

people and still leading them.

Then, of course, you mentioned my favorite word “trust,”

because without that we have nothing. Then the walk slowly,

of course, and listen and learn. I love it. Thank you.

Next question: Your network of contacts has great scope.

You see leadership people in all walks of life. What kinds of

leadership experiences do business people often lack?

John: Well, I think that when I was younger I felt that knowledge

was the key, and so I was always filling my mind with knowl-

edge on how to lead and what other leaders were doing.

I’ve become convinced, as I’ve grown older, that experience

is essential to a successful leadership; although, I don’t think

experience is the best teacher.


Although we can enjoy celebrating our successes, we need to have more reflection and less celebration in order to really grow

We hear that a lot. People say, “Well, you know, experience

is the best teacher.” I think if that were really true, Harvey,

then as people got more experience, they’d get better. I don’t

find that to be true. Just because you’re getting older doesn’t

mean you’re getting better.

I know a lot of people that are getting older, but even if

they’ve done the job for 30 years, they’re not getting any

better. They’re not growing; they’re not learning.

One time I told a person, “Maturity doesn’t always come with

age; sometimes age comes alone.” We have these experiences,

and I think evaluated experience is the great teacher. And I

think reflection really turns experience into insight.

I think this is a real Achilles heel for a lot of leaders, espe-

cially if we’ve got a little success going, a little momentum

going for us. I think almost always with success comes more

celebration and less reflection. I think that probably more

reflection, less celebration is more the balance we need.

To reflect on my experiences, I ask, “What did I learn? What

am I learning at this stage?” And that’s where the insight

begins to come.

In fact, I always say that we need to pause long enough to let

growth catch up with us. I think that doesn’t happen a lot

of times.


You need to allow growth to catch up with you

Again, as leaders, to have that biased action, we’re there,

we’re pushing it, we’re loving it. It’s an adrenaline rush.

We’re out there kicking, making things happen. I don’t

think we allow growth to catch up with us, and we don’t ask

ourselves, what am I learning? And what have I learned?

And what am I changing?

You know as well as I do that one of the greatest detriments to

our future success is today’s success.

So I think of business and I think of experience. I think there

needs to be ways in which we kind of check ourselves and ask

ourselves, Are we having enough reflection time?

For example, for years, Harvey, in my office I have a thinking

chair. I only use it for reflective thinking. I don’t use it for

writing; I don’t use it for watching television or talking on the

phone to somebody. If I haven’t been in my chair for three or

four days, I look at it and I think, I’m too fast, I’m not letting

my experience catch up with me. So I sit in my chair, and I

go back and reflect and think.

At the end of the year, every year, my favorite week of the year is

the week from Christmas to New Year’s because that’s my reflec-

tion week. I don’t speak anywhere; I don’t go to see anybody;

I don’t do anything except I just reflect. I take my calendar for

the whole year, and I go day by day, hour by hour, over every-

thing I did for the whole year, and I just take notes.


Getting old happens to everybody, but getting better is a choice

Oh, I’m spending too much with that person; this is an area

I don’t need to get into anymore; oh, I need to spend more

time in this area. By the 4th or 5th day of that last week, I

am really laying out my new year. I’ve got it. I’ve got where

I need to put my energy, where I need to put my time, the

changes I need to make.

So I think getting old is what we all do; but getting better,

that’s a choice. I think reflection and allowing insight to

come into our life from our experiences is what really makes

us a lot better.

harvey: I just love your take on that question. I just entered a note on

my iPhone, Buy a thinking chair.

John: Now, Harvey, let me tell you something, my friend, you

don’t go to the furniture store and ask for one; they don’t

know what you’re talking about. The chair doesn’t do the

thinking for you.

I’ll tell you where I got that. I got that idea from a story that I

heard one time of a guy who bought a bird cage for a friend as

a gift. The guy didn’t particularly care for birds or anything,

but it was a great bird cage. It was very ornamental.


If you have a place to think, you’ll start thinking

He bet his friend that within a year he would buy a bird, if he

would put the bird cage in a very prominent place, which he

did. When people would come to his home, they’d see the

bird cage and say, “Oh, what a beautiful bird cage, but where’s

the bird? Where’s the bird? Well, did the bird die?” After a

while he went out and got a bird.

The whole kind of thesis of the story is if you have a place to

put a bird, you’ll buy a bird. Well, if you have a place to think,

you’ll start thinking. I learned that, visually, it was important

to have a place to think so that you would begin to develop

the habit, and when you saw that place, it would just kick in

and say, “Oh, I’ve got to start really thinking about this.”

harvey: Well, you’re on a roll. Okay. Here we go, next question: As

you know, I’ve been a great advocate of continuous educa-

tion. I so much like your message in the quote, “Change is

inevitable; growth is optional.” How can leaders ensure their

personal growth keeps up with change?

John: Well, this is probably my biggest passion. In fact, I think I’m

known for leadership. But probably if somebody gets inside

of me, the whole issue of intentional growth is probably the

most important thing.


You need to have a personal plan for growth because you must be intentional about growth

It happened back in 1973, when I was having breakfast with a

guy. He asked me if I had a personal plan for growth, Harvey,

and I didn’t have one. I just didn’t even know I was supposed

to have one. I mean, it never entered my mind.

I’m out of college, I’m just kicking off, and things are going

really kind of good for me. But when he asked me if I had a

personal plan for growth, of course, I was still young, and you

know, when you are young, you try to fake it until you make

it. I didn’t have an answer, but I gave him the fact that I

worked hard and I gave him all of this stuff.

When I got done, he just smiled knowingly and said, “You

don’t have a plan, do you?”

I said, “No, I don’t have a plan.”

That day he told me a statement that changed my life. He

said, “Growth is not an automatic process. You and I will not

grow automatically. It just doesn’t happen. We don’t grow

because we live; we don’t grow because we breathe; we don’t

grow because we get a day older. If we’re going to grow, we’re

going to grow because we’re intentional about it.”

That day changed my life. I didn’t know how to develop a

growth plan. Nobody ever had shown me how to. In fact,

I talked to people about it, and I couldn’t find anybody that

did it. But I knew what he told me that day would unlock


The secret of any person’s success is determined by their daily agenda

the real key to success, if I could become intentional in my

growth area.

So over the next couple of years I developed my own growth

plan. Of course, it’s become sophisticated now, but just two

or three quick essentials, Harvey, and that is that it has to

be daily. The secret of any person’s success is determined by

their daily agenda.

I talk about that in my book Today Matters, quite heavily, but

it’s an absolute fact. It’s amazing what we can do if we just get

in the habit of doing it on a daily basis. We don’t even have

to do it a lot. We just have to do it on a daily basis.

In fact, it’s better to do it a little bit every day than do it a lot

once a week.

So I began to understand that whatever I want to grow in, it’s

going to have to be a daily process. Then I began to under-

stand that if I could discover my strengths, then I needed to

grow in my strengths area, and I needed to quit focusing on

weak areas, because that’s just weakness. If you really grow in

weaknesses, all you do is get average.

I mean, from a one to a ten, if I’m a three, Harvey, and I

work hard, you can only increase a couple numbers, so I get

to a five, I’m still average. People don’t pay for average. So I

figured I better find out what I’m a seven in, and every time I


In order to be a better leader and increase your influence, you need to add value to the lives of others

could find something I was a six or a seven in, I thought, okay,

I’m going to focus there. That began, now, to be the daily

focus of the areas.

So I’m now doing it daily, which is consistency, and now

I’m beginning to prioritize. I’m doing my strengths, and

then I’m beginning to add to it one more thing, and that is

the question I ask myself every morning, Harvey, and that

is, “Who can I add value to today?” I just learned that that’s

the magic question.

If every day I start my day saying, okay, I’m going to add value

to someone—in fact, I woke up this morning, and you were

right up on the top of my schedule. I said, wow, if I could add

value to Harvey today and say something or do something

that kind of lifts you a little bit, then I increase my influence.

I increase my influence with you.

People want to know how can they increase influence, which

is nothing more than leadership, and that’s just add value.

And every evening I close my day by asking myself a simple

question, “Who did I add value to today and how did I do it?”

Put those three things together:

l You begin to do daily what you need to be doing.

l Prioritize it in the area of your strengths.

l Then begin to apply that to people and add value to them.


We teach what we know, but we reproduce what we are

When you do these three things, all of a sudden the influ-

ence index on your life just takes off like a rocket. People

want to be around you; they like to be with you. It’s just an

amazing thing.

I just found that, in personal growth, that when I stop learning,

I stop leading. Nobody needs a historian. Nobody needs to

hear the same thing today that they heard yesterday.

We teach what we know, but we reproduce what we are.

If I’m going to be the person I need to be, I’ve got to keep

growing and keep learning. So I’m kind of passionate about

it, as you can tell.

harvey: Well, you surely are adding an enormous amount of value to

our Roundtable. Again, I can’t thank you enough.

Next question: Look at your extraordinary career, consider

the enormous influence you exert. What are your personal

leadership goals today? How did you arrive at setting them?

John: Well, when anybody asks me to talk about goal setting, I start

kind of hesitating because I’ve set goals. But I almost feel like

I couldn’t do a goal setting seminar with integrity, because the


In leading people, teach them how to relate to others and equip others so they can lead

things I wanted to achieve, I’ve achieved so much more. I’m

kind of a person of faith, so I’m very grateful to God for that,

but here’s what I know. I never wrote a book to make money,

Harvey. I really didn’t. I didn’t plan on making money.

The people I knew that wrote books didn’t make money, so

I just started writing books to help people.

When I started teaching leadership, I started teaching

leader-ship because I truly believe that if a person could learn

to lead, they would be successful. I began to realize that if I

could help people with their thinking, if I could help them

change their thinking, they could change their life. So I’ve

just looked at things and I’ve always asked myself, What

helps people?

Back in 1976 I came to the conclusion that if I could help

people relate to others, if I could help people equip others,

if I could help people have a good attitude, and if I can help

people to lead—if I could do those four things—I could be

successful in helping people.

If you look at all of my books, 50 some of them, I don’t

know how many, they basically are all either relationship

driven, equipping, developing; people driven; attitude

driven; or leadership driven, because I think those are the

lanes that you’ve got to travel in to be successful. So my

goals really have just been being successful.


As a leader, you need to add value to people and do it with integrity

I’ve been surprised; I’ve been surprised. I’ve just spent an

incredible eight days with these thousand people. One of the

things I shared with them was about all the money I lost in the

beginning trying to help people. I mean, my first seminar was

in Kansas City; I had 17 people attend. I lost $3,000, because

I didn’t have enough registration. I just told them all, I’ve

taken less money to make the career move because I felt the

opportunity was big and that I could do something with it.

So when you talk about goal setting, I guess my goal has always

been to add value to people and to do it with integrity, as well

as to keep growing so I could keep adding value to people.

I remember when I started my monthly CD club, my good-

ness, that was back in the early '80s. You know, there were 31

leaders in a hotel room in Jackson, Mississippi, and they

said, “How can you keep teaching us?” And I said, “Well,

the only thing I know is I’ll do a live teaching session on

tape”—back then we had cassette tapes—“we’ll record it,

and I’ll send it to you every month.” And all 31 of them

signed up to do it.

Well, that became the beginning of my Maximum Impact

Club and, good night, what’s that mean today? You know, I

have a hundred thousand people listen to me every month. I

didn’t try to make money.

So the only goal I’ve ever had even on making money is how

much of it I could give away. So I just feel that if you have a


If you help people get what they want, they help you get what you want

heart to help people and you have gifts to do that, obviously,

and you are committed to making sure that every day you do

that, I think that’s where the return is. For me, that’s what

I’ve discovered.

So my goal setting kind of leaves people a little bit numb,

because I’ve hit my goals, but my goals really were more to help

people than they were to specifically do things to help myself.

It goes back to the old Zig quote, Harvey, you know, “If you

help people get what they want, guess what, they help you get

what you want.” And that’s really been true in my life.

harvey: You’ve got it, and that is beautifully expressed.

Last question, John, Who are the one or two people who have

influenced your life the most?

John: Well, my dad. My dad’s still alive, Harvey. In November,

he’ll be 90, and he’s the most amazing person I’ve ever

known. He loves people. He is an encourager, and every

day he encourages people.

A quick story, we put him in kind of a full care unit recently.

They just had built one close to his home, when Mom died


People need confidence and encour-agement, and you can be the one to provide those

two years ago. Even though my dad still drives and still is just

in great shape, we kind of wanted him to have close medical

attention, because none of us live real, real close to him. So

we asked him if he would mind, and he said he would go. He’s

got such a good attitude.

So I was having lunch with him about three months before he

moved in. They were just building the facility. He said, “John,

I’m going to be the first one to move in. I’ve already talked to

the people that are leading, and they said I could be the first.

The first day they open, I get to be the first one to move in.”

I said, “That’s great, Dad. Why do you want to do that?”

He said, “Well, you know”—I love this phrase—he said, “You

know, there are a lot of old people that are going to be coming

to this place”—and it’s kind of like he doesn’t even have a

clue that he is. But he said, “I want to be in there. I want to

get settled there, so when they come,” he said, “they’re full of

fear and questions, and you know, they’re leaving their family,

and this is something they probably don’t want to do.”

And he said, “I want to meet them at the front door and shake

their hand and say, ‘Hi, my name is Melvin Maxwell. It’s

going to be okay. I’m going to be your friend, and we’re going

to have a good time here.’” And he said, “I just think they

need some confidence and encouragement as they move in,

and I want to be the first one there to do that for them.”


Too many of us are a lot bigger on the outside than we are on the inside

Well, Harvey, I mean, what am I to do? I’m a product of that;

I grew up in that. It’s nothing I’ve done. I’m a lucky kid. I

happened to be born in the right family.

I grew up with this kind of thought and this kind of thinking

and this kind of way of life. And so my father, who I greatly

admire—I admire more than any living person—he’s been a

constant model for me.

Now, obviously I’ve passed him in many ways in his life, but

here’s something I think is very important when you think of

mentoring and people mentoring. When I passed him as far

as knowledge and experience and success and some of those

things—of course I have done that—he was the first one to go,

Hooray, yea, yea. He wanted me on his shoulders, no doubt.

But I want to tell you what I haven’t passed him in, Harvey,

I haven’t passed him in spirit. It is the spirit of a man that

makes the man or makes the woman. And I’ve never even

got close. My dad is bigger on the inside than he is on the

outside. I’m afraid that too many of us are a lot bigger on the

outside than we are on the inside.

So when you talk about influence in a person’s life, obvi-

ously. I mean, you’ve had an influence on—any author that’s

written great books. I read everything. I mean, I’ve read your

books, Harvey, so you’ve had a huge influence on my life. I

tell people, you don’t have to be personally close to a person


You need to have more than one mentor because one person doesn’t know everything

or spend every week with one person to be your mentor, and

one person shouldn’t be your mentor anyway, because one

person doesn’t know everything. So you kind of look for a

person, a lot of their strengths.

All my life, every month of my life—goodness, since I was

in my 20s—every month of my life, I’ve had a learning

lunch where I go sit down with somebody. They’re bigger

or faster or smarter than me, and I don’t even have lunch,

usually; I just have questions. I buy their lunch, and I ask

them questions for an hour, hour and a half. I pump them

until we’ve got to leave.

I just went out two weeks ago with a man who was 88, who

started a university down here in Florida where I was. I just

had him tell me a story and just asked questions. I took him

back to his place and opened the door for him and gave him

a big hug and thanked him. He just had tears in his eyes, and

he said, “You’ll never know what you did for me today.”

Well, I don’t know what I did for him. I took him out for

lunch, that’s what I did, but I know what he did for me.

So I just keep going to people and asking questions. I’ve

never learned anything when I did my teaching, but I’ve

learned an awful lot when I’ve asked questions. It’s just kind

of been a lifestyle for me.


Find out what people’s strengths are and then ask them questions about their strengths so you can apply it to your life

harvey:

It’s been a lifestyle to find people and then find out what

their strengths are and then ask them questions and then

apply it to my life.

But my dad, Harvey, he’s an amazing, amazing person.

Well, I have a heartwarming story, without question. I have

two pages of notes. All I can say is that you are the guru of

gurus, John, for leadership.

Coming off an eight-day seminar and headed for another

five day event, I am most grateful that you shoehorned us

into your incredible schedule. Thank you, thank you, thank

you.

John: Well, my friend, I did it. I’ve done this interview out of the

car because I’m going up to get on my plane. I’ve got to go to

Oklahoma City today. But let me tell you something, there’s

a reason I shoehorned you in. I shoehorned you in because of

the value that you’ve added to me and the value that you add

to tens of thousands of people.

I value you, and I value our relationship, and I value what

you’ve done for me and so many others. So if our short time

together has been helpful, then I’m pretty happy.


Inspiration is a stirring and riveting leadership essential

harvey: Wow. Once again, thanks. I’ll be in touch with you, John.

Next time I see you, we’ll be teeing it up on a golf course.

John: Now, I’m going to hold you to that, okay?

harvey: Oh, no. Oh, no. Done deal, done deal. I can’t wait to outdrive

you. Thanks again.

John: Yeah, that won’t be hard. A guy told me one time, he said,

“The only problem I had in golf was I was too close to my ball

after I hit it.”

harvey: Take care. Thank you, John!

Bully pulpit and ministerial pulpit both—who can match the authority

of your voice and message on leadership?

Inspiration is a stirring and riveting leadership essential. So too are perspi-

ration and determination—the plain-spoken ability to break new ground.


Leadership takes perspiration and determination

As you all know, PayPal has been the giant among Internet payment

systems. Not long ago, a young Israeli entrepreneur named Shvat Shaked

from an outfit called Fraud Sciences got his foot in the door at PayPal.

Shvat’s elevator pitch: His team had an incredibly simple way to unearth

“...online payment scams, credit card fraud, and electronic identity theft.”

PayPal was polite, but you could guess what they thought: Sure, buddy,

dream on! Then its techno-mavens tested Fraud Science’s system and were

shocked to find it really worked. PayPal didn’t just buy the idea. In 2008,

they bought Fraud Sciences!

How did these start-up whizzes concoct this brainstorm? Using the same

principle Israel banked on to track down terrorists.

“When you’ve been developing technology to find terrorists,” as one

expert put it, “then finding thieves is pretty simple.”

The Fraud Sciences episode is just one of a fistful of innovation lightning

bolts in a book titled Start-Up Nation. It’s by Dan Senor and Saul Singer. As

an instruction manual for Entrepreneurship 101—it’s unbeatable.

Senor and Singer document why “...Israel represents the greatest

concentration of innovation and entrepreneurship in the world today.”

What’s the link to Israel having “the highest density of start-ups in the

world?” Bottom-line: “In 2008, per capita venture capital investments in

Israel were 2.5 times greater than in the United States.”

What does this all have to do with leadership? Plenty!


There is no leadership without personal example and without inspiring your team to charge together and with you

Israel’s defense requirements play no small part in shaping the country’s

business culture. Much of Israel’s front-end entrepreneurial zing comes from

the nuts-and-bolts pragmatism of its battle-tested military elite.

“If most air forces are designed like a Formula One race car, the Israeli Air

Force is a beat-up jeep with lots of tools in it,” says an Israeli air force pilot.

The race car is just not going to cut it in their geographic environment.

l In Israel, the “military pyramid is exceptionally narrow at the top”

and “the Israeli army has very few colonels and an abundance of

lieutenants.”

l In the trenches, leaders taste risk at a tender age: “Company

commanders are twenty-three,” notes an Israeli major.

l “While students in other countries are preoccupied with deciding

which college to attend, Israelis are weighing the merits of different

military units.”

l Decades ago, Israel decided to give its “most talented young people…

the most intensive technology training that the universities and the

military had to offer.”

l In Israel, “the battle cry is ‘After me’: there is no leadership without

personal example and without inspiring your team to charge together

and with you.”


Leaders are as vulnerable as they are powerful

l Little time is wasted on formality: “If you’re a junior officer, you call

your higher-ups by their first names, and if you see them doing some-

thing wrong, you say so.”

Leaders are as vulnerable as they are powerful. Senior officers the world

over know this is an axiom. “Vinegar Joe” Stillwell was an American 4-star

U.S. Army general. He was a key figure in the China-Burma-India Theater.

He was hard to get along with and made wrenching demands on his troops.

Yet he never lost sight of who he was and how others might have seen him.

“The higher a monkey climbs,” he said “the more you see of his behind.”

True leaders never lose perspective on how they’re really regarded. And,

genuine leaders are ever ready to recognize the leadership contributions of

the people on their team.

Max DePree is a son of the founder of Herman Miller office furniture in

Zeeland, Michigan. This firm is famed for design breakthroughs such as the

Eames chair and…, yes, the cubicle.

Max is also a leadership expert of substance. He’s written two classics on

the topic:

l Leadership Jazz and

l Leadership is an Art

He also established the Max De Pree Center for Leadership. In front of

the Herman Miller headquarters there’s a sculpture called the Water

Carrier. It’s by American artist Allan Houser—an Apache sculptor in

Oklahoma.


Leadership is not fixed or rigid—it is mobile

“In the life of an American Indian tribe, the water carrier held one of

the most important and respected positions,” DePree writes.

“What does it mean to be a water carrier in a modern-day

corporation or institution?”

DePree’s answer: He describes a maintenance manager who received

a telephone monitor alert in the middle of the night. A water pressure

reading was strange.

The manager came over and inspected.

No obvious problem presented itself. But he absolutely wouldn’t let go

until he found the leak. His dedication ended up saving an entire wall of

their plant.

What made him so persistent? He “felt the consequences of his behavior

were personal. His commitment to the company extended and strength-

ened the quality of the entire organization.”

So the Tribal water carrier has become a signature icon for Herman

Miller. It’s “a symbol of the essential nature of all jobs, our

interdependence, the identity of ownership and participation, the

servanthood of leadership…”Max DePree started a tradition by honoring all the employees with

20-years of service as water carriers.

The neat part of this story is that leadership is mobile. It’s not fixed and

rigid. A truly great CEO knows how to mold an entire team of leaders. He

or she can call upon the leadership traits of everyone.


Leadership requires staying in touch with social dynamics as they are happening

So, there are leaders of powerful organizations … and there are leaders

hidden away in each and every one of us.

Professor Ronald Heifitz lectures on leadership at Harvard’s Kennedy

School of Government. He wrote a provocative book titled: Leadership

Without Easy Answers.

Corporate executives, Heifitz maintains, often confuse leadership with

authority. I call that an error of convenience. Why? It takes a lot less effort

to tell someone what to do than to inspire them to do it.

Why bother to fire up the troops if you can always just fire them?

Leadership requires staying in touch with “social dynamics as they are

happening.” Leadership is more about 3-dimensional chess than 2-dimen-

sional organization charts. Able leaders are not “lone rangers” with “vision”.

A leader has to command the strategic plane. But the move to relevant

tactics must be quick and decisive.

Leaders create scenarios that persuade others to follow them.

l Martin Luther King began a voting rights march in Selma, Alabama,

for a precise reason. He was sure this was the one place where the

civil authorities would be absolutely reliable. They would be certain

to assault the marchers with dogs and billy clubs.

l When they did, the conscience of the nation was shocked.

l Congress was compelled to pass civil rights legislation.


The first purpose of any corporation is to serve its customers

l Leadership is not just knowing what you stand for, but what you’re

willing to stand up against.

We have already heard from former Medtronic CEO Bill George on the

topic of teamwork. This seminal thinker is also the author of a classic entitled

Authentic Leadership: Rediscovering the Secrets to Creating Lasting Value.

In Authentic Leadership, Bill George stakes out a risky position. It

would be challenged if not reviled on Wall Street. Worth Magazine ran a

cover story on Medtronic. It quoted Bill as saying—straight out: “Share-

holders come third.”

Bill George’s logic follows this progression … and I couldn’t agree more.

l “The first purpose of any corporation is to serve its customers. In

Medtronic’s case, the ultimate customers are patients and the imme-

diate customers are physicians.”

l Bill says the second purpose is Medtronic employees who “are the

most empowered and committed to serving customers of any group”

that Bill knows.

l Shareholders come third. “To keep the focus on the long term,” Bill

maintains, “the only way to deal with shareholders is to manage

them and not let them manage you.”

When Bill wrote his book in 2003, Medtronic’s market share had grown

dramatically in every business during the previous 13 years.


Great leaders know how to create a vision and to share it

Today Medtronic is the world’s biggest medical technology company. It

was once unique and a huge growth vehicle. It was often the sole player in

breakthrough technologies.

The point is this: Medtronic didn’t put shareholders first, short term.

They embraced this philosophy for years and years. They held true to it.

The result: Shareholders ended up first…and with a spectacular premium.

You can only achieve that sort of result with tremendous leadership.

That means leadership with unequivocal vision and conviction.

Let’s stay in Minnesota for a moment. There’s another story I want to

share with you. It’s about vision. Great leaders know how to create a vision

and to share it.

Larry Wilson is an entrepreneurial leader with such a vision. One day

Larry took his young sales manager up to a magnificent estate overlooking

the St. Croix River here in Minnesota. He then took him up on the

highest peak of the property, put his arm around his shoulders and pointed

down and said:

“Look at that gorgeous swimming pool! . . . How do you like those fabu-

lous tennis courts?…Take a look at those beautiful horses in the stable.

“Now all I want you to do is… continue to meet the high standards I’ve

set for you. Continue to meet the high goals I’ve set for you.

“And someday, son, all this will be mine!”


Helping others to achieve their goals is the best way to achieve your own

You see, a true leader knows how to open up his dreams to others…with

enough of a sense of humor to get others to buy in. Early in life, it’s worth

getting this lesson right. Helping others to achieve their goals is the best

way to achieve your own.

That said, leadership is not about laying back like Tom Sawyer. It pays

to pitch in and help whitewash Aunt Polly’s fence.

There are things to be said for leading the charge.

A couple hundred years ago, a rider on horseback came across a squad of

soldiers. They were trying to move a heavy piece of timber. A well-dressed

corporal stood by, giving urgent commands to “heave.” But try as they might,

the squad couldn’t budge the log.

The rider was curious and asked the corporal why he didn’t help his men.

“Me? Why should I? Can’t you see I’m a corporal?” he replied.

The rider dismounted and offered to help. He took his place among the

soldiers and smiled. The dismounted rider said, “Now all together, men,

heave!” The big timber slid into place. The rider silently mounted his horse

and turned to the corporal.

“The next time you have a piece of timber for your men to handle,

corporal, send for the commander-in-chief.”

With that, George Washington rode off—much to the amazement of

the soldiers…and, I suppose, the dismay of a very embarrassed corporal.


Lending a shoulder doesn’t always demand brawn

Lending a shoulder doesn’t always demand brawn.

I remember the CEO of one the most prestigious department stores

around. He awed the chain’s trainees. He would make it a point of taking

them around one-by-one in their first week.

One of his top goals: He used his eagle eye to spot a scrap of paper on

the store’s floor.

He always beat the trainee to the punch. The CEO would stoop down

in his all-silk Italian suit to pick it up. His fledglings never forgot the

lesson: This is what a multi-millionaire is willing to do to make sure he

stayed a multi-millionaire.

Just remember: You can put yourself on a pedestal and elevate your-

self above the rest of the world. If you do, the size of your funeral will still

depend a lot on the weather.

Our next speaker would never think of putting herself on a pedestal. But

expert opinion has singled her out as a leader of distinction time and again.

Marilyn Carlson Nelson is chairman and former CEO of Carlson.

Carlson is one of the world’s largest privately held companies and the largest

travel agency.

Under her leadership, the firm’s system-wide sales nearly doubled to $40

billion. She transformed Carlson into a “new model” company. Her lead-

ership initiated an employee effort that netted more than $200 million in

bottom-line process and program improvements.


There are common traits found in the leaders around the world

She was named one of “America’s Best Leaders” by U.S. News & World

Report. Forbes magazine has regularly selected her as one of “The World’s

100 Most Powerful Women.”

President Bush selected Marilyn to Chair the National Women’s Busi-

ness Council. She’s chaired the Travel Industry Association of America

and is also chair of the famous Mayo Clinic.

Marilyn is also a leadership authority. She is the author of the national

bestseller How We Lead Matters: Reflections on a Life of Leadership.

Marilyn has been a friend for many years. Just as I admired her father, I

admire her.

What an honor it is to welcome my good friend, Marilyn Carlson Nelson

to the Mackay Roundtable!

Marilyn nelson

harvey: Marilyn, you serve on the board of ExxonMobil. You have

co-chaired the prestigious World Economic Forum in Davos,

Switzerland. If anyone knows the global corridors of leader-

ship, you’re the one.

What common traits do you find among leaders worldwide?

Are these traits changing?


Successful leaders build winning cultures because they’re not just about themselves

Marilyn: I think all leadership starts with trust. There’s no question

that if people trust you, they’re willing to follow you. Some-

times I think that today people rationalize that there’s a lot

more gray area than there actually is.

Most of us have a certain sense of what’s right and wrong, and

we can rationalize. Otherwise, I think that most of the great

leaders that I’ve seen are people who treat people—whether

it’s superiors, peers, or those who work for them—always the

same. There’s an authenticity, being who you really are.

I’ve really found, Harvey, that, particularly at Davos, where

I’ve seen a lot of leaders, and then I’ve seen some truly great

leaders, I’ve seen that the most successful leaders are not

what I would call mercenaries. They’re not as focused on the

compensation as they are almost like volunteer soldiers.

They become passionate about making a difference, passionate

about their team and building a team. They build winning

cultures because they’re not just about themselves. They

actually consider the stakeholders.

They never lose sight of the fact, as business leaders, that

they are stewards on behalf of the shareowners. But they also

realize that the way they treat their employees, the way they

treat their customers, and, of course, ultimately, how they

interact with their communities, as responsible corporate citi-

zens, leads to sustainability.


Successful leaders have learned to collaborate across the sectors

I think of an example, I think of Anne Mulcahy. When no

one else stepped up to take the leadership role at Xerox, which

was a failing company, Anne stepped up. The stock market,

the analysts were saying, “Anne, cut your R&D. Get that

money to the bottom line. You’ll get a multiple. You’ll be the

hero.” And I love it, Anne said, “No. I don’t want to be the

hero and turn the company around for a year or two. I want

to create a sustainable company. I will not cut the R&D.”

I think that your second aspect of your question about traits

is very interesting. When Davos was begun, it was primarily

initiated by a group of business leaders. The mission of the

World Economic Forum is improving the state of the world.

It’s not improving the profitability of any individual corporate

leader who comes. It was to improve the state of the world,

and it was primarily business leaders.

Then it became clear that the collaboration between business

and the public sector was the key to adding economic value,

the key to corporate success, and that some of the issues that

the world faced, the longer term issues that had an impact

on corporate success, were only solved if corporate leaders

learned to collaborate across the sectors.

At first the NGOs were not only not invited, but they tended

to come occasionally uninvited, and it still happens from time

to time, but for the most part were uninvited in those days


The “worst case today” scenarios have to take into consideration real crisis planning

and there were protests. It became then, to the leaders there,

that cross sector leadership, dealing with the complex issues,

had to engage all constituencies, and so the circle was drawn

larger and the NGOs were included.

So I’d say that what’s happened is from command and

control leaders, to team—creators of cultures and teams, to

individuals who have the ability to operate cross sector, to

understand context and the big picture, that’s been a very

interesting evolution.

I see much more global acuity in relation to competition and

influences and threats and opportunities. Leaders now are

having to have scenario plans and be prepared, not only to

be flexible, but not flexible in a vacuum, and actually to have

run scenarios around for the best case, most probable case,

and worst case. There’s no question that the worst case—how

many times have we heard that we’ve had the hundred year

flood or the hundred year this or that?

The worst case is no longer a sort of 10 percent down. The

“worst case today” scenarios have to take into consider-

ation real crisis planning, and I’m seeing more leaders pay

attention to that.

I’m also seeing, in addition to the collaboration across sectors,

the global acuity about competition influences, and much

more concern about threats, we all know that corporate


We need to embed corporate responsibility right into the normal business practices

leaders are having to look increasingly at risk. Corporate risk

has become a very big subject, whether it belongs in the audit

committee or a special risk committee. Ultimately, the chief

opportunity officer and risk officer is the CEO or the leader.

In the corporate sector, much more thought is being given to

what corporate responsibility exactly is and how people like

Michael Porter and others are talking about shared value. It’s

how to embed corporate responsibility right into the normal

business practices, so that companies model what Klaus

Schwab, who is the founder of the World Economic Forum,

calls “global corporate citizenship.” Global corporate citizen-

ship, in his mind, has several aspects.

The first is around how you govern, how one governs and leads

in one’s own organization. Transparency, diversity, respon-

sible environmental decisions, all of which has to be done

and taken into consideration at the same time that globaliza-

tion is pushing margins down and the competition is making

margins razor thin. The competition, the globalization, and

the technology that are driving to more perfect markets are

taking margins down.

So how to be responsible over time and compete means that

leaders are having to be much more granular in their under-

standing of their business, of their business models, of the

costs, and of the sustainability.


Being a leader in any field requires discipline, effort, and yes, sacrifice

harvey: Well, that’s a heck of a good start, Marilyn. I love your obser-

vation, “not mercenaries, but volunteer soldiers,” when it

comes to leaders.

Next question: There were many memorable quotes in

your book, How We Lead Matters. One, in particular, is a

favorite of mine, quote, “The fact is that being a leader in

any field requires discipline, effort, and yes, sacrifice. It can

be all consuming, and during that time, life may not have

much balance.”

In addition to being a leader, Marilyn, of global renown, you

have achieved remarkable balance in your life. How have

you been able to do it?

Marilyn: Well, first of all, I’m delighted that you have that perception.

I guess I think, first of all, that if you are truly being a multina-

tional—I suppose it’s the same for an entrepreneur because, as

we all know, entrepreneurs have to play many of the roles in

a smaller organization that a large organization shares across a

variety of executives.

I have two philosophies about that. One is that no one’s ever

asked an Olympic athlete, “How’s your work/life balance?”

So you just assume if you’re going to be in the Olympics, that

you’re not going to have balance. You’ve made a choice to be


The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing

out of balance in one area and to outperform and compete in

another. So I think it’s important for us to remember that.

The second thing, though, is that to sustain over time—we

talk about businesses sustaining over time and what kind of

healthy activity has to take place. It’s the same for an indi-

vidual. I often coach our people.

First of all, the way I was coached by a CEO, a previous

CEO of a large corporation, upon whose board I served, is

that “the main thing is to keep the main thing the main

thing,” and I think it’s a great quote. It means you have to

have a certain amount of emotional intelligence and under-

stand yourself pretty well.

If you know what it is that’s at the core that nurtures you—for

me, for example, my family is at the core. So when I made

decisions that looked like it was really threatening the family

in one way or another, I knew that, ultimately, it would be

debilitating for me, so I made some—particularly in the early

years, I turned down some jobs, turned down some roles,

because it was not the right time. And the stress for me and

the family would have meant that I could have awakened one

day and been successful in my job, but not in my family, and

that, for me, was the main thing.

I should say, by the way, we’ve just celebrated 50 years, which

I think you have, Harvey, and so that piece was important.


In being the leader, sometimes you have to help your team handle imbalance for a certain period of time

But I also found that with our executives, and the people who

reported to me, that I felt that as their leader, my job was to

try to drive the company forward. There were times when

we were out of balance, and I would ask of them to be out of

balance for some period.

If we were doing a deal, if we were doing a merger, a big acqui-

sition, we might have been reinventing a brand and trying to

roll out new services or new products, and people were 24/7

and working weekends. But then we had to say that there was

a time to get back in balance.

Sometimes different individuals had a different tolerance for

that, or in their own family life had a different stress outside

of the corporation that made them less able to survive some

of those periods. I had to advise them that it was incumbent

upon them to let me know or let their boss know, “This is

putting too much stress on my family. Is there some way that I

can—I’m willing to step aside, or I’m willing to share this role

or how can I work this through?” Because there’s no way for

the CEO to know where everyone is on their own stress scale.

We all know that managing stress and managing these kind of

out of balance times, it’s extremely important to exercise and

eat correctly. And I think, for myself, when you ask “How have

you maintained whatever balance or imbalance and sustained?”

I’d say that the exercise has been a really key thing.


When you have to make a decision for your team, if you have a simple majority, your team will crater your ability to execute on the strategy

The more stress there is, the more I force myself to either get

on a machine and run on a machine or go for a walk or go

for a swim or do something, but get myself back into enough

balance that I can get the creative juices going, which is really

necessary when you’re going through those periods. Often

those are the times that you shut down and you don’t have as

much creativity, unless you force yourself to get a little space

and some of the wonderful chemical lift that you get from

some kind of exercise.

harvey: Well, I’ve always said when you talk about creative juices

going, go get a Webster’s Dictionary, look up “creative juices,”

there’s Marilyn’s picture, right there. Let’s move on. That’s a

fascinating answer.

How do you go about managing consensus, especially with a

leadership group?

Marilyn: In the first place, I love the question, because you really do

need to walk out of the boardroom, or wherever your execu-

tive team is meeting, with peoples’ heart and soul behind

the decision that’s been taken, because even if you have a

simple majority, you’ve got people who walk out and they

can just crater your ability to execute on the strategy. They


Be sure to get as many facts as you can before entering a discussion

can either do it overtly or they can be passive/aggressive and

simply not buy in.

Sometimes, with the electronic communication, I’ve even had

instances where somebody who wasn’t convinced was emailing

outside the room, under the table, to the team about things

that were being discussed, which ended up having that partic-

ular individual excused from the executive team permanently.

Arriving at some consensus is important. So the first thing,

always, is to get as many facts as you can get. Nothing craters

a consensus more than dealing with emotion and not fact.

So to the extent that you can start, first of all, you have to

start by building a culture of mutual respect. If anyone enters

the room and is put on the defensive or if the team doesn’t

feel that their feedback makes a difference, it undermines the

entire discussion.

There are leaders who artificially call groups together, but what

they really want is everyone to follow. They want everyone to

come together and walk out of the room accepting the lead-

er’s point of view, and pretty soon the whole team falls apart

because they've become cynical about the discussion, they

don’t really engage, and they don’t share the facts.

So the leader has to, A, be willing to not only listen to

everyone there, but to be willing to collaborate for the best


As a leader, you have the responsibility to think ahead and be prepared

possible solution that the team can develop, because that’s

when you get the execution outside the room.

Then I found that asking people to bring as many facts as

possible, and at least at the first session, whenever there starts

to be a disagreement, you know, begin to sort of whiteboard

where are the disagreements, and are there more facts that we

can get. If one person says “I don’t believe that number” or

“Where did that number come from?” get the best facts on the

table you can possibly get on the table.

Then I think that the leader really has some responsibility to

think through, ahead, and know where their team is coming

from, and be prepared. The leader can actually do this.

I often would think of my board of directors when I was trying

to build a consensus around a recommendation that the

corporate group had come up with. I wanted to hear their

feedback, but over time, you really can predict.

You know who is the conservative one, you know who the

one is who has a higher risk tolerance, you know who you

wants to just sort of talk and wants it to be their idea, and you

can even work on the agenda so that you can acknowledge

and anticipate, wherever possible, the various responses.

You can actually plan into the agenda and in the way you

do your opening presentation, you can address some of the

various issues at the table.


Dealing with emotion and not just facts builds a culture of mutual respect

harvey:

Marilyn:

Sometimes it involves several meetings, and there is some sort

of private negotiation, but I really find that, at least for me, it

was better to have things happen at the table, that somehow

the little private deals ultimately become disruptive, because

one person thinks he maybe made a deal with someone else

and it undermines the authenticity and the transparency.

Well, from my perspective, you nailed it. Dealing with

emotion and not just facts builds a culture of mutual respect.

I’m sure all the Roundtable members can identify with

those comments and philosophy.

Well, we’ll move on. One or two left.

Don’t forget transparency, Harvey. A lot of people think

that they’ve got more power because they hold the cards

and they really don’t share all the facts, and if your team

doesn’t know all the facts or you’re holding back or you feel

that that gives you a little bit of extra power, ultimately it

undermines the outcome.

Transparency is really important, and that means both under-

standing your own emotion, where you’re coming from, and

what your lens is, as well as others.


Transparency is really important, and that means understanding your own emotion, as well as others

harvey:

Marilyn:

Well, maybe we can zoom this into Washington, DC. Okay.

Transparency.

How do you exert leadership in major community and civic

projects? And specifically, how do you motivate senior

executives who are not part of your chain of command?

I’ve been so lucky. I had an upside down career, is what I

always say, because I stepped out and was raising my family

for a while.

During that time, I ended up taking on larger and larger

volunteer jobs, ultimately, along with you, Harvey, and some

other of our friends, but chairing the Minnesota effort to bring

the Super Bowl to Minnesota, and then organizing the 2,000

volunteers that we ended up having to execute against that

particular initiative.

I also chaired something called Scandinavia Today, which

involved five Scandinavian countries and a 12-month

long commercial, academic, artistic celebration that took

place in six major metropolitan areas across the country.

So in both of those cases, with multimillion dollar budgets,

the objective was to have the volunteers fulfill their jobs,

whatever the weather, if it was 20 below zero, to be standing


If you respect each of your team members and they understand that the whole can only be successful if each one does their part, they do step up

on the corner they’d agreed to during Super Bowl, to show up

on time, to be professional, and we didn’t pay them.

So I was so blessed with those opportunities, because what

I learned is that if you can communicate a vision and if you

can collectively see success and you understand your piece of

that success, you understand and someone has shared with

you why it is important that you be in that corner or, in our

case, in a restaurant; why it is important—whether it’s the

dishes you’re doing or the way you’re serving the guests, why

it’s important; what we’re part of; what is the bigger whole;

that people respond with their heart and soul.

If you respect each and every one of them and they under-

stand that the whole can only be successful if each one does

their part, they do step up, and it’s the most amazing exercise.

I would recommend that any CEO who hasn’t led volunteers

to do it, because it’s a little bit like if you were skiing and

somebody said, “Okay. Now you’re going to do an exercise

skiing without your poles,” because the minute that you can

pay someone, you have kind of a lever, but it only goes so far.

It can capture, perhaps, their mind, perhaps not.

We all know the percentage of disengaged people we have.

But if you can engage their heart and soul in the vision, you

don’t have to have people report to you, because you’re not

using positional leverage, you’re using leadership.


Leaders inspire and are less concerned about hierarchy than about the result

I think managers tend to—if you want more definition of

the difference between a manager and a leader, it may be

that managers need the positional leadership. They manage

things, and they manage people, in part, positionally. I think

leaders inspire, and they are less concerned about hierarchy

than about the result, and they can motivate others to keep

their eye on the goal.

harvey: Terrific. Last question, What one or two people influenced

your life the most?

Marilyn: That was the hardest question. I mean, at what particular

point? You know, I can go back: My mom, kind of uncon-

ditional love. Dad, conditional; you know, if you got an A

minus, you need to get an A; set high goals. Scouting. Doing

my best for God and my country. Sounds simple, formative.

What is doing your best, and for something else? Being for

God and your country, that’s formative.

Certainly, in terms of inclusiveness. Certainly people that

I knew at Smith College, who saw no reason that women

couldn’t be leaders, that women couldn’t be leaders in the

political sphere, in the private sector, and taught us to take

ourselves seriously as leaders and as people who could trans-

form and make a difference.


One person with courage can make a difference

Jack McAllister, when I was at the phone company and the

whole AT&T was coming apart, and he was being criticized

for advocating so strongly for the US West region. In the

middle of all of that, he brought to the board that he was going

to stop funding the Lions Clubs and the Rotaries because they

didn’t accept women and they didn’t accept minorities.

His board said, “Jack, you’re taking on everything else. What

on earth would you take on the whole country with these

fraternal organizations?” He said, “When is the right time?”

He said, “I have minorities and women who are ready to be

leading in communities, and they’re going into these towns

and these cities, and they’re not invited to the tables where

commerce is done.”

He single-handedly, by pulling his funding, changed those

organizations forever. I just learned that one person, over and

over, with courage, can make a difference.

Of course, I read your books, Harvey, and have been your

friend for a long time. I can’t tell you the number of quotes

and aphorisms and sort of morals, Mackay morals, that I have

applied in my life.

I’ve been very impressed today with people like Peter Bray-

beck, from Nestlé, who has really taken social responsibility

and social entrepreneurship to another level, where they see

the availability of water and the functioning of farms as key


In order to be a leader, you much assume responsibility and accountability for yourself

to their water that they need for their businesses, and cocoa

and things that they need for their chocolates. So they have

long-term investments around the world.

I think my dad, probably primarily, as an entrepreneur, who

really taught me that the harder we work, the luckier we get.

He taught me the work ethic. He taught me the value of the

free enterprise system, that for all its flaws, that we have the

privilege and the responsibility of operating in the free enter-

prise system in a democracy.

He also taught me that part of the price of doing that, the

pay to play, was to find ways to make the community stronger

and to have concern outside of the business setting for the

people that were victimized by the system as the impersonal

markets moved.

So responsible individually, responsible corporately, faith in

the future, faith in the system, and a huge sense of account-

ability. Don’t blame someone else.

They say that people get the leaders they deserve. I’d like

to inspire any executives or friends or people that I have the

ability to touch to be the kind of leaders that deserve great

leaders at the national and international level, and that means

to assume responsibility and accountability ourselves.


A pat on the back accomplishes more than a slap in the face

harvey: Well, Marilyn, as always, you deliver more than you promise.

The Roundtable members just received an enormous amount

of take home value. Thanks again.

Marilyn: Thank you, Harvey.

harvey: Marilyn, as always, your comments are incredibly percep-

tive. People in ages to come will look back and say you were

one of the great change agents who altered the profile of

leadership in our time.

When you hear people like John Maxwell and Marilyn Nelson speak,

you realize the genuine artistry that goes into leadership!

One of my all-time favorite aphorisms is: “A pat on the back accom-

plishes more than a slap in the face.”

Praise is among the most essential leadership arts. It’s one of those points

where leadership and management converge.

Recently I saw the same message stated a little differently: “A pat on

the back…though only a few vertebrae removed from a kick in the pants…

is miles ahead in results.”


The greatest factor in workplace productivity is a positive environment in which employees feel appreciated

A Personnel Today survey of 350 human-resources professionals found

a result that may come as no surprise. The greatest factor in workplace

productivity is a positive environment in which employees feel appreciated.

The survey reports that two-thirds of the respondents said they felt a lot

more productive when they received recognition for their work.

Just feeling productive can be motivating in itself. When workers don’t

feel productive, frustration sets in. That’s according to 84 percent of the

survey respondents.

Three time-honored tips for praising rule the day:

1. Be sincere. Give praise only where it is due. Workers can spot phony

sentiments. They resent the implication that they are so gullible that

they would fall for such flattery. The Greeks have a saying: “Many

know how to flatter; few know how to praise.”

Learn the difference. And be realistic. Marjorie Main plays the land-

lady in the vintage Clark Gable / Spencer Tracy film Test Pilot. When

somebody tries to butter her up, she cracks back: “I’m young enough

to like that stuff, but too old to believe it.”

2. Give public praise. Your goal is to encourage the employee to keep

up the good work. You also want to inspire everybody to put out

greater effort. Praising in public is a good way to raise general morale.

Praise loudly, blame softly.

3. Be specific in your praise. Name exactly what it is the employee has

accomplished. Don’t just say, “Well done, Jane.” Be informative.


The key to successful leadership today is influence, not authority

Ken Blanchard once told me, “The key to successful leadership today is

influence, not authority.”

And, Ken Blanchard—the master of one-minute praisings—really

knows his stuff.

Convincing praise requires self-confidence. The more insecure a leader

is, the harder it is for a leader to take risks. Doing the right thing becomes a

perpetual exercise in fear.

I once asked a minister friend of mine what quality he looked for in

hiring an assistant pastor. “One who can’t preach as well as I can,” he said.

Some leaders pick their back-ups and deputies on the same basis.

I recall an article in Barron’s. In it, Frederick Kobrick, a mutual fund

portfolio manager, tells of a visit he made to a company. The fund had made

an investment in this business. Kobrick noticed that the chairman wore

shirts with monogrammed cuffs.

He felt that men who wear monogrammed cuffs aren’t trying to do the

laundry a favor…they have ego problems. They don’t allow for differences

of opinion. They act out their ego trips by hiring lackeys.

He promptly sold his holdings. By the end of the year, the price of the

stock had fallen 60 percent.

Are monogrammed cuffs a dead give-away? No way. But, people are

always toting up little pieces of evidence.


You need to be sure enough of your own abilities to surround yourself with strong subordinates

A business etiquette expert clued me in on a tip that companies use when

hiring managers: Watch how they treat the wait-staff over an interview lunch.

It can be a useful predictor of people management sensitivity.

Self-confident leadership has backbone. That means being sure enough

of your own abilities to surround yourself with strong subordinates.

In all major sports, the difference between a winning team and an also-

ran isn’t just “who’s got the superstars.” Superstars have slumps. Superstars

get hurt. Superstars get suspended. Very often, the ultimate outcome comes

down to who has the bench strength.

And, sometimes the outcome depends on the ability of superstars to rise

to challenges they could never even imagine.

Jeff Immelt became CEO of General Electric on September 7, 2001.

There are many reasons he will never forget what happened four days later.

“Talk about timing,” he told the graduating class of Dartmouth College

in 2004. “In addition to the human tragedy,” just four days after taking over

GE, “I saw planes with our engines hit buildings we insured covered by a

network we owned.”

Immelt has had one of the toughest bookings in the business world. He

followed the legendary Jack Welch as GE’s top honcho. Indeed, some years

earlier, Welch threatened to fire Immelt if he didn’t shape up his perfor-

mance. Immelt not only hung onto his career ladder at GE and succeeded;

he has been able to weave his own leadership pattern.


You need to make people a priority

What goes into the Immelt leadership formula?

1. Shared goals. General Electric is a highly diversified business. It

stretches from wind turbines to joint-venturing network TV with its

stake in NBC. Keeping focus is no easy matter.

“We’re constantly driving initiatives in the company, common initia-

tives.…They’re not voluntary,” he told an Economic Club audience.

Nor could they be when you’re steering an aircraft carrier like GE.

2. Showing Up. When he took over from Welch, Immelt told Time

magazine that he personally transferred relationships from Jack to

Jeff. “It’s got to be done retail, face to face,” he said, “and you’ve got

to keep doing it.”

I’ve seen countless CEOs turn over their Rolodexes to their successors.

The corner-office freshman thanks the predecessor. Then he never

bothers to clock time pressing the flesh with these people one-on-one.

It’s a surefire way to dehydrate a company’s network overnight.

3. People priorities. GE employs 287,000 people. It wants the light

bulb of good ideas blinking on in all those brains with regularity. “We

spend a billion dollars a year in training. I probably spend 40 percent

of my time on people,” says Immelt.

4. Going to bat. “I’m selling every day,” Immelt notes. “I’m getting up

and selling turbines, selling jet engines, selling MR scanners from

the time I wake up to the time I go to bed. That’s what CEOs do.”

That’s “how you teach your organization to compete.”


Leaders learn constantly and have to learn how to teach

If you want the short-course for Immelt on leadership, click on this Fast

Company website. Google: Immelt and things leaders do. There you’ll find a

ten-item list titled Things Leaders Do. Some of the pointers are classic text-

book advice and solid stuff. Several add a catchy new twist.

Here are some examples:

l “Leaders learn constantly and have to learn how to teach.” Immelt

says managers need to share what they have absorbed over the years.

That still sticks even when others don’t agree with them.

l “Stay disciplined and detailed.” Don’t just tune into the big picture,

but keep tabs on the micro “things that are important.” Immelt

says Dell Computer founder “Michael Dell can tell you how many

computers were shipped from Singapore yesterday.”

l “Let the team find its own way.” It’s tempting for a leader to issue

marching orders at every corner. But I guarantee you: Any team

constantly served a diet of directives will never fight its way out of

the jungle on its own.

High on my own inventory of leadership practices, I would add 4 points:

1. Read at least four biographies of successful business leaders a year.

Learn from the successes (and mistakes) of others. There’s no

better way than by reading their personal accounts. Consider it

leadership homework.


Leaders must find a balance between speed and deliberation

2. Keep your own leadership log. Start a leadership file. Every day you can spot leadership you admire on the soccer field, in the office, in a movie, or on the news. Jot it down. Describe what you liked about it.

How could it work for you? How do you plan to put it to use?

3. Road-test leadership skills in community work. You may not be on a Forbes megabuck list yet. Taking on tough volunteer work is a great

way to help get there. Tackle leadership challenges in the commu-

nity. Stretch your leadership risk-taking skills without putting your

career in peril.

4. Watch how young people lead groups of other young people. Not only is their language peppered with high-tech references, the way

they interact is fast-paced and fresh. It’s also the voice of the future.

Learning leadership is like riding a bike. If you don’t want to end up

headfirst, use your head first.

That’s especially so in times of crisis.

9-11 was one of the pivotal leadership events in our country’s history.

Jeff Immelt’s recollection makes us revisit that experience.

As mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani helped steer the nation through

the harrowing experience of September 11.

“Great leaders lead by ideas,” Rudy Giuliani contends. “Leaders must

find a balance between speed and deliberation.”


Leaders are people who do the right thing; managers are people who do things right

That’s a thought worth keeping center stage in the days ahead. As all of

us know, we recently experienced the tenth anniversary of the 9-11catas-

trophe. If ever there was a time that our leadership was tested, it was that

day and the days that followed it. It’s wise to reflect on what was done and

what could have been done better.

In leadership scholarship, there is one authority no one has been able to

better. When you wrap up a topic like leadership, how can you beat turning

to the foremost thinker?

Warren Bennis is probably the #1 leadership expert of our time. He is

a Distinguished Professor of Business Administration at Southern Cal. He

also heads the board of The Leadership Institute at that university.

He has written prolifically on the subject of leadership.

Warren spent several years researching leaders for his book Why

Leaders Can’t Lead. He traveled around the country spending time with

90 of the most effective and successful leaders in the nation. Sixty came

from corporations and thirty from the public sector.

Warren’s goal was to find these leaders’ common traits. At first, he had

trouble pinpointing similarities. The leaders were more diverse than he

had expected.

But he later wrote: “I was finally able to come to conclusions, of which

perhaps the most important is the distinction between leaders and managers.

Leaders are people who do the right thing; managers are people who do


Be a real leader who both listens and guides people to get the job done

things right. Both roles are crucial, but they differ profoundly. I often observe

people in top positions doing the wrong thing well.”

I had the privilege of serving on Warren’s board. Attending our semian-

nual conferences at USC was a highlight of my professional life.

The biggest single lesson I tucked away from that experience?

A leader better know the difference between tactics and strategy. “To

survive in the 21st century, we’re going to need a new generation of leaders,

not managers,” as Warren has said.

For “leaders,” read “strategic thinkers;” for “managers,” read “tacticians.”

In 1991, Warren prophesied managers had to change their way of leading.

“Move to maestro from macho in the way we’re thinking,” he challenged.

That means shelve “command and control” thinking. Be a real leader who

both listens and guides people to get the job done.

Dump the old-style bullying of “control, order, predict (COP),” Warren

said. Adopt the real results-getter of ACE: “acknowledge, create, and

empower.” When it comes to change, being an ace is job #1.

“People in charge have imposed change rather than inspiring it,” Warren

lamented. “So, should everybody just do their own thing?”

“When everyone is his or her own boss,” Warren warned, “no one is in

charge, and chaos takes over. Leaders are needed to restore order,” by which

[he meant] not obedience but progress.


People learn as much from bad bosses as they do from good ones

Is your own boss a poor leader, trapping you with nowhere to go? Don’t

waste time griping. Make mental notes. “People learn as much from bad

bosses as they do from good ones,” Warren points out.

Warren has an eye for the wise. In his 1985 book Leaders, he quotes the

Chinese sage Lao Tzu: “Of a good leader, who talks little, when his work is

done, his aim fulfilled, they will say, ‘We did this ourselves.’”

When you hear wisdom like that, how do you feel?

As though you are experiencing a real-time line into history itself?

Well, today I’m pleased to announce we are going to be honored with

that very experience. Our last guest is none other than the University

Professor and Distinguished Professor of Business Administration and

Founding Chairman of The Leadership Institute at the University of

Southern California…Warren Bennis.

warren Bennis

harvey: Warren, you are the world’s reigning expert on leadership.

What initially got you interested in the subject? Does leader-

ship interest you in the same way today?

warren: We’re all experts in a way. We all have our theories about

leadership. Usually they refer to me as a guru. But, Harvey, I


Some people in charge have imposed change rather than inspiring it

think from the very beginning of my consciousness—age 5, 6,

7—I have twin brothers that are 10 years older than I. I am

not a twin, so it’s the three of us.

I sort of observed the differences between the two of them

growing up. One seemed to have the right stuff. When-

ever he would suggest something we do, like a movie, ditch

school, play a sport, you know, I and whoever was with me

would immediately just like reflexively want to. Whereas his

identical twin, may have said the same thing, and nothing

happened. It would have been like an acoustical dead space,

in that space.

Well, that was early on, and I began to wonder, what is it that

determines why people follow? I wanted to know because

inspired followership is really the definition of leadership, and

leaders manage somehow to get that sense.

Now, actually, I take pride that at the age of 19, I was in

Germany fighting as an infantry platoon leader. There I saw

what it meant when you’re playing for mortal stakes, where

you’re not just running an effective global corporation, which,

God knows, is difficult enough.

I’ll give you this one example. Most people don’t know this,

but frostbite and trench foot are very serious. This was the

coldest winter, in 1944, that Europe had experienced; it was

cold, damp, raining, snowing. I noticed that some platoons


Leaders need to know what is going on in the world today

would actually make sure the men did one simple thing, and

I really think this is going to sound strange. Trench foot in

combat and frostbite are psychosomatic; that is, they happen

to you because you didn’t do something. And what you didn’t

do, after a full day of slogging through the cold and ice and

enemy fire, was to make sure that you took your socks off,

took your boots off, and tried the best you can to dry and wash

and dry your feet between the toes.

I saw so many men where the leaders weren’t insisting

every night that your men do this—because you don’t want

to do it, by the way, after fighting all damn day. I watched,

and the difference between officers who cared—not just me,

many of us cared. We didn’t have our troops, any of them,

going back to regimental—the version of a small hospital to

take care of it. With trench foot, you amputated. They had

to go back to division level.

That’s why I got interested in leadership at the gut level,

Harvey. There are many other factors. But, you know, about

the third part of your question, Harvey, I am more interested

today with what’s going on in the world.

With your group, people you know that I know are leaders

that you’ve gathered together with you: Think of all the

world leaders at this moment. Do you guys know of anyone

who seems to be riding high?


Leadership is always a highly contested area

We’re living in a very—I mean, I’m not just talking about the

so called Arab spring. I’m talking about the world leaders. I’m

talking about Mr. Obama. I’m talking about you name any

European, in the European area, any one of the EU states. Do

you know any of them where the leaders feel—perhaps the

prime minister of Turkey is, but he also is in a very difficult, kind

of a precarious state at this moment, because Turkey happens

to be, I think, the real pivotal point of the Middle East.

So right now, Harvey and the friends of the Roundtable, I

don’t know of a time when leadership is more of an issue. It

always is an issue in a way.

I’ll never run out of questions. It’s still a regularly contested

area. It still fascinates me, because no one has said the last

word. I may be called the reigning expert, but, you know,

nobody has said the last word. There’s no single theory that’s

been accepted by me or anybody else.

harvey: Well, we’ll move on.

warren: Okay, please.


The effective leader must assemble for the organization a vision of a desired future state

harvey: Number two, in your milestone book, Leaders, you write, “The

effective leader must assemble for the organization a vision of

a desired future state.”

How much of the vision comes out of the leader’s head,

Warren? And how much is the group effort? And is this

vision enduring or constantly evolving?

warren: Harvey, I think your colleagues and you know the answer to

that. You know, it would be marvelous if we had that great

man who had epiphanies. We’re not talking about Christ;

we’re not talking about Moses; we’re not talking about

Buddha. We’re talking about you and me. And you have the

hubris to think that Warren would say or Harvey would say

that, “Oh, yeah, I get these epiphanies.” No.

First of all, if you’re going to create a shared vision—under-

line “shared”—it’s dependent on so many factors, Harvey.

Like the context here, you know, I think there’s such a thing,

beyond social emotional intelligence, that I call contextual

intelligence, that is, the capacity to really understand the

culture you’re in.

You know the old musical—it’s about a salesman. What is

it called, Harvey? You have to know the character. It’s a

musical.


In order to be a successful leader, you’ve got to know the territory

harvey:

warren:

harvey:

warren:

Death of a Salesman?

No. It’s a musical about a salesman. He’s sort of a slight con

man, but he has a song which he sings, “You’ve got to know

the territory,” and that song sticks in my mind.

I remember the song (from "The Music Man").

Well, that’s a piece of it. You’ve got to know the territory. And

I can give you many examples of people who failed because

they never took the time, maybe ever, to really understand

the culture of the organization.

I’ll never forget an aide to Senator John Kerry who told me a

story, I cannot believe it.

He was in Pittsburgh in ‘04, campaigning for the presidency—

hard to believe—in Pittsburgh. He had a press conference

there, and a newspaper reporter said, “Senator Kerry, what’s

your favorite sport?” He said, “Sailing.” Sailing. This is a

blue collar town.

Then when the reporter said, “Senator, followup question:

Who is your favorite athlete?” Now, it would have been, to


As leaders, we need to take the time to learn

anyone, obvious to say Lance Armstrong, as he had just won

the Tour de France.

Kerry, would you believe this, answers the number two guy,

who has a German name I can’t pronounce. The guy came

in number 2 in the Tour de France. You know, I don’t even

know how to explain it.

But I’ve seen this happen to lots of terrific leaders. Look at

the former CEO, the woman whom I was rooting for over

HP, Carly Fiorina.

harvey: Yeah, Carly.

warren: Carly didn’t take the time to get the HP culture. Really, we’ve

gotten so seduced by going and being at Davos, going to all of

those nice international meetings, getting on the magazine,

being a poster girl, and not staying home and taking time

to learn. After all, she was only the fourth CEO from the

founders, I believe, and the only one from the outside, and

she also was a woman, which didn’t help at first. In addition,

she wasn’t an engineer. You know, all of those things. She

had a lot to go through, and she could have made it there, I

think. She’s got the brains.


It takes contextual intelligence to achieve success

But no one took her aside and said, “Carly, stay at home a lot

more. Learn this HP culture. It’s a very unique, important

matter.” She didn’t.

That’s what I mean by it takes contextual intelligence.

Also, what goes into a vision is that, is your team. Why do we

think we have so many “C” words today? Why do we call it

the “C suite”? When I wrote that book, Leaders, you referred

to - it came out in '85, Harvey, and I wanted to call the book

“CEO,” and the publisher said, “No, nothing doing. No one

knows what that means. Oh, well, maybe a few,” he said.

So I called it Leaders: Strategies for Taking Charge. That’s in '85.

How many years ago is that? 25, maybe, something like that.

Anyway, listen, so in these days you’ve got a COO, you’ve got

a CFO, you’ve got a chief intelligence officer. There’s a firm

I know that has a chief wisdom officer, a chief spiritual

officer, a chief security officer. I mean, the C suite has

got—why? Because it’s such a multitasking organization.

How can anyone lead? Even a moderately large, moderately

small organization today, not work together with others, if

they’re going to get anything done today, with the complexity,

with all of those so called disruptive inflection points,

you know, that Clay Christianson brought about and we all

have to think about.


Today we have to do things as a group through a lot of sharing

The world is so incredibly complex. And cognitively, I don’t

think there’s one of us who has that capacity without the

help of others. And you know, if you didn’t need the help

of others, then forget about it. Don’t join an organization.

Work in your own garage; work at home.

But today we have to do things as a group, and we have to be

able to do it. That’s true nationally, which we’ve got a long

way to go to learn that. We don’t realize it right now, but

while we’ve been hegemonic, while we’ve been the world’s

greatest power since the end of World War II—and I’m part

of that generation—right now we better learn how to partner

with, and even when our interests diverge.

So yeah, vision doesn’t now just come out of a person’s brain

like a bubble in a cartoon character. It comes out of a lot of

talking, a lot of understanding of the context, a lot of sharing

and putting together, because even if you were capable of,

“This is it. Men, let’s do this,” well, who is going to follow if

they had no skin in the game? Who is going to follow if they

didn’t have a voice? How are they going to buy in if someone

shouts from the top of the hill?

It’s not going to work nowadays. It still does work probably

in certain, you know, special projects in the Army and Navy

Seals and all of that, and even there, there’s a lot of collabora-

tion in how they decide to move a lot.


The right path is near, yet men seek it afar off

harvey: Well, your words ring so, so true. You definitely have to know

the territory.

At our next meeting, I just might get up and sing that song to

our guys, even though it might be a little bit off key.

warren: It’s a great song.

harvey: And it reminds me, you’ve got to know the territory. I’ll find

out the words. When talking about Carly and using that as

an example, I’ve often said to my group, the right path is near,

yet men seek it afar off. They’re dancing all over the world,

and here they’ve got to know the territory.

Two more quickies.

warren: No question about leadership is a quickie.

harvey: Boy, are you ever right there. Please prioritize, as best you

can, the skills of a corporate leader today.


You’ve got to abandon your ego to the talents of others

warren: One of the first things has to do with that contextual

intel-ligence, from when I started. I like to call the effective

CEOs today, they have to be first class noticers. Let me

repeat that. They have to be first class noticers.

What’s going on in the world that could inflect, deflect, or

influence my organization? What are the changes going on?

What about the movement to urbanization? What about

social media? All of these things. We’ve never lived in a

time when the cartography of stakeholders, the cartography

of things that can influence the firm are as complicated or as

many as they are today, period.

So boy, you have to keep your brain going and observing and

talking to as wide a group of people as possible. The trouble

often with CEOs, top teams get too isolated, insulated, and

they ultimately will fail. So you’ve got to just keep the rear

windows, you know, and all the kinds of help you need. And

that’s why that team is so important, Harvey, to understand

what’s going on. So that you become a first-class noticer,

aware of what’s going on.

B, what comes before that is developing a great team, being

able to share, being able to, you know, as one of my heroes,

Max De Pree, put it, “You’ve got to abandon your ego to the

talents of others.”

Isn’t that wise?


You can’t have a vision without that sense of knowing where we are

harvey: I love that.

warren: Yeah, the first thing he said is this, which is what I was saying

earlier about first class noticing: “The first and primary task

of a leader is to define reality and to give people perspective

of where we are.”

You can’t have a vision without that sense of knowing where

we are—I mean, a vision already is based on a perspective of

where we are, and then where we must go. So you need to get

that perspective of where we are, of defining reality.

And the second thing is alignment, and that’s where the team

comes in.

So all of those things: define reality, be a first-class noticer, get

the big picture of what’s going on, develop a team, and it will

help you create that picture, too. Those are the steps:

l Define reality

l Align the troops, so to speak, and

l Get that team in place.

Those are three of the main things I would mention.


Become a first-class noticer soyou can get the big picture of what’sgoing on

harvey: Last question, which will not be a quickie—how’s that for

you? See, I’m a quick study and fast learner.

warren: Well, I’m going to make it quicker.

harvey:

warren:

harvey:

What one, two, or three people influenced your life the most?

Well, you know, I’m going to give you an answer I’ve never

given before.

But first I want to put a plug in for my book, Harvey. I just

finished and had published last year, a small memoire called

Still Surprised. The idea I have now comes as a result of,

believe it or not, that book plus that question—What one or

two people influenced your life the most?

At first, of course, I put down Doug McGregor, and he was

the person that ordinarily I mention, as I’ve been asked that

question a lot.

Is that Doug McGregor from Minnesota?


You need to acknowlege your mentors, those who have influenced you most in your life

warren: He was the Theory X, Theory Y. He developed the founda-

tion for the field of organizational behavior and organizational

development. He was my mentor at MIT. He was my mentor

at the college I went to, Antioch College. He was the presi-

dent when I was a sophomore. And then he was the one who

helped me get into MIT.

I wouldn’t have gotten in without Doug’s letter of recommen-

dation. I wouldn’t have gotten tenure there if it weren’t for

Doug. He was the major influence. And I must mention him.

But when I read that question today, for the first time, I realized

another—and there are a lot of other people I can mention—

Abe Maslow was very important to me. Erik Erikson was very

important to me. Those three, they meant the world to me,

but especially Doug.

But when I looked at that question this time, I had another

answer to it. We’re not excluding Doug, by the way, or the

others I just mentioned. But in looking at that question after

I wrote it down, Harvey—and I couldn’t believe it—I wrote

down myself. And I circled it in red pencil, and I put two

exclamation points.

Who the hell does that? I realized that as I became grown up

and as I learned to develop myself as a scholar, as a leader, it

was understanding of myself and learning from within.


You are a participant in your own development

You know, I never thought of giving that as an answer before,

because it sounds so stupidly conceited, full of hubris—myself.

Yeah, I’ll stay with that. But, you know what? It’s really true.

I mean, who else keeps prompting you, reminding you? Who

else cues you to observe something?

I got so much from others. I mean, my whole life has been

based on conversations and knowledge. I’m not one of these

people who sits in a room by himself and gets great ideas. I

don’t get those great ideas taking a shower, which is the myth

that you always read about. I don’t have these.

But today, in looking at those questions again, what one or two

people influenced your life? It was, yeah, Doug McGregor, I

wouldn’t be here without him. But, you know something, I

also wouldn’t be here without myself.

That may sound weird, and I’ve got to learn how to say that

in a different way, but what I’m saying is I have been a partici-

pant in my own development. I’ve never, ever thought of

putting it that way.

I think I better end on that note, Harvey. It’s a puzzle to me.

But I hope I’ve communicated the importance of this idea,

which I still have to learn how to say in a way, because this is

actually the first time I’ve thought of it.


We want you to strengthen your ability to self-renew your own leadership goals

harvey: Well, I love your candor; I love your frankness. You tell it like

it is, Warren, with how you feel. And that’s what makes you

a great leader.

You truly are the best of the best. I can’t wait to see you in

your office again. I love all the years we spent there together

with you when I was on your leadership council.

Well, thanks again. And I’ll see you around the USC campus.

Bye bye.

warren: Okay. Harvey, great talking with you. And I hope to hear

from you and your friends. Bye.

There you have some of the finest minds in the world on the all-

important topic of leadership.

All of you—each and every one of you—is a leader of significance.

The goal of the Roundtable is to equip each of you to be a better leader.

We’ll have really achieved that job if we can do one thing further. That’s to

strengthen your ability to self-renew your own leadership goals.

Leadership is not about how you are seen. It’s about what you achieve.


There is a very human side to leadership; you’re not just playing follow the leader anymore

I want to close with two thoughts. Both are aimed in the same direction.

The first comes from management sage Peter Drucker. Drucker once wrote:

“Effective leadership is not about making speeches or being

liked; leadership is defined by results not attributes.”

The second comes from a rags-to-riches entrepreneurial success story.

His name was Jim Rohn, and he passed away in 2009. Jim was also a personal

friend of mine. Jim wrote:

“A good objective of leadership is to help those who are

doing poorly to do well, and to help those who are doing

well to do even better.”

Remember … there is a very human side to leadership. You are leading

people. You’re not just playing follow the leader anymore. This is serious

business … your business.

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