554 THE RESIGNATION OF MR. SYME—EVIDENCE OF MR. GUTHRIE.

seers, who appear to be active and benevolent men, quote at

length from the reports of the medical officer. Among manyatrocities, it is asserted, and it remained without contradictionin a crowded meeting, that

" Six children had been confined in a ward with two idiotsof inveterate filthy habits, and an old woman so weak as topass her dejections in bed; and I also stated that several ofthe parties were laid up in fever in consequence, and that oneof the idiots was then dead. The extreme danger of breathing an impure atmosphere may be learned from the painfulfact which it is my duty now to report to you-that six out ofthe nine persons confined in that room are dead, and seme ofthe others are still ailing."

This state of things appears to have depended, in the firstinstance, upon the malconduct of a matron, whom one of the speakers at the meeting designated a fiend, rather than awoman; in the next, it depended on a too easy house-com-mittee ; and lastly, upon a most improperly constituted boardof guardians. The great proportion of the sick in the

workhouse are from Huddersfield and its vicinity, while amajority of the guardians are farmers and others from remoterural districts, whose sole aim seems to have been the savingof the rates, quite irrespective of justice or humanity, orlife or death. All attempts of the town guardians at a more

just and liberal system, have been systematically frustratedby the guardians from the rural districts. After expressingthroughout the most unqualified disapprobation of the cruel-ties alleged, the meeting resolved to institute an inquiry intothe validity of the charges of inhumanity; and an inquiry willalso be instituted by the poor-law commissioners. The ma-

tron, immediately on the appearance of an inquiry, resignedher office, but no doubt her conduct will be thoroughly in-quired into.

It must have been some recompence to Mr. TATHAM for the

arduous difficulties he had had to encounter, when he wit.nessed the cordial and generous testimony of his fellow towns-men to his persevering humanity in behalf of the poor, and inbehalf of the true interests of the town. A resolution was

proposed in the best spirit, instituting a public subscriptionto recompense Mr. TATHAM pecuniarily, for his dangerouslabours and for the expenses of the suit at law. To this it was

moved as an amendment, that it would be more just and moreconsonant with Mr. TATHAM’s own feelings, if the poor-lawcommission was in the first instance memoralized with a re-

quest that they would direct the guardians to pay Mr.

TATHAM for his extra-parochial services. The following reso-lution was accordingly adopted-

" That this meeting begs to accord its best thanks to Mr.T. R. Tatham for the manner in which he has maintained theright of the poor to efficient medical relief in the hour ofdanger and affliction. By so doing he has, it is conceived, main-tained the true interests of the ratepayers, asserted the justclaims of his profession, and given the poor cause to be grate-ful that their lives had been entrusted to such considerate andhumane hands; and further, that this meeting, sympathisingwith Mr. Tatham for the extremely hard treatment lie has ex-perienced at the hands of the guardians of the poor, resolves,that the overseers of the poor memorialize the poor-law board,in the name of the ratepayers of the Huddersfield township,urging that they will be pleased to direct that the guardiansof the Huddersfield Union fully recompense Mr. Tatham forhis extra services and great risk of life incurred in attendingthe fever hospital, and also reimburse the expenses attendingthe prosecuting his just claim, out of the funds in theircharge."We trust this memorial will meet the approval of the

poor-law commissioners. But even this would not, we consider,absolve the inhabitants of Huddersfield from their debt of

gratitude to Mr. TATHAM. After his former account has been

settled, they will still owe him some solid memorial of theirsense of his conduct, and this debt, from the temper of thepublic meeting’, we should imagine they will not be slow torecognise or discharge.The guardians-that is, the majority of them-have placed

themselves in a truly contemptible position. Thev will now

probably [have to pay twice, after the general rule of dis-honesty. Our readers will remember that they opposed Mr.TATHA1$1’8 charges on a technical plea, which Mr. BaronALDERSON scouted as most dishonourable. The result of this

part of the affair is, in the words of the report, that"The guardians have spent £ 119 in law to defeat a just

claim ; that they have had, after all, to pay X40 to Mr.Tatham, together with X160 of the rate-payers’ money, when£ 100, or even less, would have settled the matter at one timewith good feeling. They have therefore thrown away X60of the public funds; thrown away, also, Mr. Tatham’s costs;and in addition, induced acrimony and bitter feeling amongthemselves, and placed the entire union in the most disgrace-ful light before the kingdom at large. At present, the costsof the trial (as far as the guardians are concerned) are paidout of the funds of the union; whether the district auditorwill deem the payment to be a proper one, under the circum-stances, remains to be seen."There can be no doubt whatever that the auditor will

refuse his sanction to any such payments out of the poor’sfund, and thus the guardians will be, in one and a verysensible point, very properly punished.

THE profession will learn, probably without astonishment,that Professor SYME has sent in his resignation to the Councilof University College, and that he intends forthwith to returnto Edinburgh. This fact has been already noticed in one ofthe daily journals. It is stated by the friends of ProfessorSYME that he has been very successful in private practiceduring his brief residence in this metropolis, and that he hasresigned his offices solely from a desire to avoid becoming aparty to the dissensions in which the Council and officers of

University College and Hospital appear to him to be inex-tricably involved. ,

Medical Registration Committee.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Tuesday, Feb. 29th, 1848.

THE LORD ADVOCATE IN THE CHAIR.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir Thomas Birch. Mr. Grogan. Sir H. Halford. ’

Sir R. H. Inglis. IMr. Laseelles.

Colonel Mure.Mr Waklev

! George James Guthrie, Esq., F.R.S., examined.1. Chairman.]—You are a member of the College of Sur-

geons?-I am.2. How long have you been a member of the college?-

Since 1801.3. Are you now a fellow, and of the council ?-I have been

a councillor since 1824; I have been examiner since 1828; Ihave been twice president; I am the third member byseniority of standing in the council, and the tenth in point ofage.

4. Mr. Wakleg.]—You have seen the evidence which wasgiven before the Committee on Medical Registration lastsession ?-I saw it then; I have not seen it since.

5. Did you make an application to be examined before thecommittee towards the close of last session?-Yes, and Ipetitioned the house afterwards upon the subject, which peti-tion I now have in my hand, praying that I might be heardupon certain points to which I particularly objected in thecharter granted to the College of Surgeons.

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6. Claairman. you state, in the first instance, any together with the charter, give rise to great animosity on theobservations which you desire to otter upon the evidence that part of the profession, and which have led, in fact, not onlywas given relative to the College of Surgeons in last session? to that, but to all the evils which have since taken place, and- will state what I wish to say, but I cannot promise to to all the trouble which has occurred in parliament on theanswer on all the points, because I have not lately read the subject. I am not desirous of entering any further into thepapers. The College of Surgeons did not apply for any consideration of this question than simply to say, that I havecharter whatever. It is a very important fact for the corn- nothing to do witli, and do not intend to fight, the battle ofmittee to know, that so far from the council having any the community at large, who are quite able to contend fordesire to retain what is called self-election, though I believed themselves; but with respect to the officers in the publicthen, and I believe now, that it is by far the best way of service, there are one or two points which I conceive it im-electing the council, they felt it so painful to their feelings, portant for the committee to know, as they have felt them-and so disagreeable in many ways, that they were desirous of selves considerably aggrieved by the manner in which theygiving it up. Mr. Vincent, who was then president, and are treated. The question with ’regard to officers of the

myself, the senior vice president, stated both to Lord Nor- public service, which alone I undertake to bring before themanby and to Mr. Fox Maule, that we were perfectly ready to committee, is one which requires, I am afraid, a little ex-make 500 electors if they wished, and even to make 1000 if planation.government desired it. At the same time we thought it advis- 7. What do you mean by " officers of the public service" ?able to say, that the council strongly objected to anything like Officers of the army and navy and of the East India Com-universal suffrage, and that, probably, the government would pany’s service, all of whom have placed the protection ofhave great difficulty in making 1000 electors, without giving their interests in my hands as having been their practicalrise to the confusion which has since taken place in consequence chief and teacher in surgery for many years, and the friendof what has been done. On the 28th of January, 1842, Sir whom they look to, to do anything that may be necessary forJames Graham, the then secretary of state, transmitted to them in the College of Surgeons, or anywhere else, in fact,the college fifteen propositions, which he was desirous the where anything of the kind is necessary to be done.college should accede to, with a view to a new charter, and 8. They consider themselves aggrieved by what?—Theyto the Bill he was going to bring into parliament. On re- consider themselves aggrieved by the present charter of theceiving them, I suggested to the council the propriety of College of Surgeons, which deprives them of rights whichacceding to the wishes of the secretary of state on all points they formerly enjoyed, and inflicts certain disadvantages uponas far as was in our power; and I wrote a letter to himi, dated them very painful and oppressive to their feelings.1st February, as soon as the council could meet, expressing 9. State the matter of their complaint ?-The officers of theour desire to meet his wishes, not accepting everything he army and navy (for this is their claim and their positiveproposed as a settled or definitive arrangement, but accepting right as officers of the public service) contend, that as surgeonsgenerally. The secretary of state, Sir James Graham, was they were entitled to succeed, as every other member of thesubsequently pleased to direct that a charter should be made commonalty who was not practising pharmacy or midwifery,out by our law officers and the law officer of the Home Office. to the office of counsellor or president. The charter of 1843According to the regulations of the college, it was necessary deprived the surgeon-general of the army and the serjeant-to submit it to our standing counsel, who at that time were surgeons of their ex officio privilege to be elected on thethe present Lord Chief Baron, and the present Lord Chief council on the first vacancy. At the last meeting of theJustice of the Common Pleas; and they, in a committee-room council for an election previously to the new charter takingof the House of Commons, objected to certain parts, and re- place, two officers of the army were brought forward by Mr.wrote the charter for the College of Surgeons; this was trans- Keate and myself, and placed upon the list for election. Imitted to Sir James Graham, and the council were in hopes must explain to the committee that the manner of electionthat he would have been pleased to accept it; not that I ap- to the council in those days was, that when a death or anyproved of it exactly, but I acquiesced from an earnest desire other vacancy took place, the council met for the purpose ofto throw no obstacles in the way of any arrangement which selecting six people by name who were competent to be placedgovernment might be pleased to make. After a time, Sir upon it.James Graham signified that he was not satisfied, and desired 12. You are now speaking of the Act of 1745 !—Yes; andthat certain alterations should be made in this charter; these of the charter of 1800.alterations were not agreeable to the council; they did not 13. The mode of election which you are now speaking ofthink they were consistent with the advantage of the profes- was prescribed by the Act of 1745, was it?-Yes.sion, nor of the public; and the council as a body, with the 14. Was that mode of election altered till the last charter

exception of two or three persons, objected to make the was obtained ?-No; I am about to speak of the last timealterations. The secretary of state was imperative, and in- the council met to elect a person previously to the newsisted they should do so. Under these circumstances, I ad- charter.vised and moved the council to submit themselves to the 15. Do you mean the charter of 1843 ?-Just previously tosecretary of state’s orders, to say at once fairly that we could the grant of the charter of September, 1843.not agree with him in opinion; that we did not think what he 16. You have told the committee that the mode of electiondirected to be done was for the benefit of the public, but that continued the same from the date of the Act of 1745 to thewe gave the matter up to him, desiring that he would do as charter of 1842 ?-Yes. There has never been an officer ofhe pleased. Having gone thus far, I felt I could take no the navy upon the council, and there have not been many offurther part myself in any proceedings relating to the charter, the officers of the army. Mr. Ranby was the first councillor,nor the by-laws formed upon it, and though placed upon a as we may call him, really belonging to the officers of thecommittee of three for the purpose of making these by-laws, public service who had actually served before the enemy inI declined to act. Matters went on, the secretary of state a prominent office; I am the second, and there never will beinsisted upon further concessions on the part of the council, another from the public service of the country, if the presentwhich of course were made under his instructions; when it regulations are allowed to remain.became necessary to accept the charter, we accepted it, of 18. Are the committee to understand from your statementcourse; when it became necessary to pray for it, which we that yott hold that every medical officer of the army and navyhave been sadly accused of having djne, contrary to the in- ought to have a right to be elected into the council of theterests of the profession; for I need not now say to this com- college, simply in respect of his commission as a medical offi-mittee, that forty-eight out of every fifty men in the profession cer of the army ?-Yes, and his diploma in the college, nothave greatly objected to the charter; we were obliged to pray practising as an apothecary, and living within five miles offor it on the same principle, the lawyers informing the the post-office. council that if they did not consent to pray for it, which was 19. His diploma from the college, and his commission inmerely a form, it would be considered to be flying in the face the army?-His diploma from the college gave him the right,of Sir James Graham, and that consequently it would be the which his commission as an officer did not invalidate; I my-same thing as refusing to obey his orders. Under these cir- self came under that regulation.cumstances the council thought it right to pray for it, being 20. Mr. Lascelle,3.1-Is it by the provisions of the charterquite satisfied to place the business in the hands of the secre- that they are now excluded, or by a by-law under thattary of state, and let him do as he pleased, hoping that it charter ?-I am about to inform the committee, when thewould operate in the end for the benefit of the profession, charter was to be given, Sir James Graham was pleased toSome of the by-laws are as exceptionable in my mind, and I declare that 300 fellows only should be elected or chosen;believe in that of the profession, as the charter itself, and one the whole body having an equal right with these 300; theof them, particularly, is remarkably illiberal. There were only bar being that which I have mentioned, that those whoothers of the same description which it was quite clear must, practised as apothecaries had lost their right to take a seat

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upon the council; but all officers of the public service, not bottom of the original list, though the gentlemen are thirtyhaving this bar against them, were entitled to be included in or forty years older than the persons who are at the bottomtho list of fellows. Previously to the president and myself of that first list. As it was declared that the omissions thatseeing Lord Nonnanby and Mr. Fox Maule, in February, were to be put in were put in as omissions, and not as favours1841, the council had decided, on the 23rd December, 1840, on conferred, nothing could be more harsh upon all those menproposing to the’ Government a class of fellows and electors of thus added than to find themselves at the bottom of the listthe council, " that the class of fellows of this college should of the first 300, though they are thirty years, in standing,consist of the members of the existing council, and of those older than a great number of those who preceded them; thewho shall have passed the proposed second examination, and consequence is, that all those officers and persons who havewho do not practise pharmacy, together with all who now been so added are precluded from the possibility of ever at-are surgeons or assistant-surgeons to the several hospitals re taining to the honours of the college, inasmuch as all thecognised by this college, all lecturers on anatomy or surgery young men placed above them must be passed over before itrecognised by this college, and all who have been surgeons comes to their turn. Great injustice in what has been doneto such hospitals; the said several persons being members of for those persons has also been committed, for although sothe college." When the persons thus alluded to were found many have been added, a very great number are still omitted.insufficient to make up the 300, it was thought right to add 24. What period are you speaking of now ?-The first listthose who, although eligible for the council, had been passed of 300 did not come out till the end of the first year, so thatby and not elected, as well as others residing in London, who there was no possibility of correcting errors, and gentlemen,were juniors not practising pharmacy, and some few others did not know who were passed over and who were not, untilwho might have a certain degree of note in the country at the announcement was made who were accepted; when com-large. Under those circumstances, being then the president plaints became so loud, that the council were permitted to addof the College of Surgeons, who always has a certain degree to the number of five or ten, originally supposed to be suffi-of authority, (though it is an authority which is quite conven- cient to amend all errors of omission; it being found thattional,) I said, °‘ You cannot thiak of leaving the officers of unless a larger number was made, no satisfaction could bethe public service out, for although you are not troubled with given to the public, and the want of that larger number hasmany of them, they will be exceedingly indignant if they been the cause of all the difficulties which have taken place.are not allowed to have the same rank as thev had before; When gentlemen complained to the secretary of state, of thetherefore you ought at least to take the senior officers belong- evil that had befallen them, Sir James Graham replied that heing to the three branches of the service, and probably they had nothing to do with it; that the council of the College ofmay be satisfied with that." It is very important that I Surgeons made fellows, not himself; when a gentleman com-should mention this fact, because there is a printed paper plained to the council of the College of Surgeons, he is an-before the House of Commons, in which I am shown up, if I swered by them, that they could not elect a larger number,may be permitted to say so, rather in the shape of a block- being restricted by the framers of the charter; thereforehead, and somewhat of a rogue—two qualities I am not de- redress could not be obtained either at one place or the other;sirous to retain, if I am able to help myself. an error which should be corrected.

21. What paper is, that you refer to ?-It is a paper Sir 25. What are the privileges of fellows?-The privileges ofJames Graham called for, and a very extraordinary paper it a fellow at the present moment are, that he is eligible to theis; it is one by which I thought myself most aggrieved. honourable offices of the college, and to the only few offices

22. Could you state the title of the paper ?-It was which are profitable, which are examiners; a person who isordered by the House to be printed on the 6th of August, 1844. not a fellow cannot attain to any of those offices.

23. What is the parliamentary number ?-The number at 26. He cannot be a councillor nor an examiner?—No; andthe bottom is 596: it is headed " College of Surgeons. Copy what is worse than all is, that said manifesto of the collegeof a Letter addressed to the Secretary of State for the Home upon this point says, that the fellows have been selected inDepartment by the President of the Royal College of Sur- consequence of their merit, implying, that the men who aregeons, enclosing two Letters from Sir James M’Grigor and omitted have no merit, but that those who are put on haveSir William Burnett; also a Copy of a Letter addresssed to merit.the Secretary of State for the Home Department by the 27. In what respect does this grievance complained of byPresident of the College of Surgeons, on the subject of the those gentlemen whom you now represent, affect, in your opi-Charter lately granted to the Royal College of Surgeons in nion, the practice of surgery ?-It prevents their being ex-England, with its Enclosures." The number of officers of aminers; it prevents their being councillors; it also implies,the public service, including the three branches I have men- as far as it can do, that they are not men of merit; becausetioned, is computed roughly to be about 1000 or 1200. Sir James it is stated by the said manifesto published by the college,Graham proposed to make 300 fellows. If I had proposed to that they had selected the men who have the merit which.make 1000 more from the public service, it would have been entitles them to be placed in that distinguished position.overthrowing his intention. I therefore suggested to the Therefore it is implied, that those men who have not beencouncil to include only the officers of the public service in selected are not men of merit.the first instance who were inspectorial officers. In the East 28. Colonel Mure.]—Was it generally understood that it wasIndia Company they call them superintending surgeons. I to be determined by seniority?—No, the council selected themthought it the duty of the council to call upon the heads of as they thought best, after private inquiries had been made.the respective departments to submit the names of all their The truth of the matter is, that gentlemen in the country whoofficers of higher standing, and that from them a general were not known to parties in London could hardly be selected,selection should be made. The council yielded to the justice and those who were known were selected.of these observations, but two or three members determined 29. Chairma.]—The persons not selected complained thatto bring a gentleman forward by name, not contesting the they were not selected, and they and their friends thoughtgeneral question as to the merits of the whole, on which I that their merits were at least equal to the merits of thosestated that I would not oppose all individual. Several mem- who were selected ?-Suppose two surgeons living in the samebers asked me to name ten, or any number that I pleased, to town of equal merit, and one happens to be known to me, anda moderate extent. I said, "No,I could not do that; and unless the other happens to be known to no member of the council,they would treat the officers of the public service alike, the I propose that gentleman whom I know, and he is made agreatest impatience would be induced among them:’ The senior fellow; but his opposite neighbour, who perhaps may be hisofficers of the Guards, when they heard of this, were much rival,in business, is not placed upon the list of fellows, althoughdispleased, and they all addressed the college; the heads of he is quite as talented and as deserving a man, simply becausethe departments addressed the college; their letters-some he did not happen to come under my observation, or that ofof them are here-are very angry letters; the officers them- any other member of the council ; such a man may be pro-selves addressed the council individually, and, as is well bably half ruined by a circumstance like that; for the an-known, much annoyance took place. They all came to me to nouncement of the college goes down, making it known thatsay that I had used them ill. I answered them that I had the council having elected his rival on the ground of hissupe-nothing to do with it; that I had done my best to serve riormerit, have left him out. It has had a great effect inthem, and, as far as I could, had fought for them to the last some places upon the prospects and comforts and feelings ofextremity. Under those circumstances Sir James Graham individuals. An instance of this kind occurred in the case ofgave way, and assented to an additional number of fellows Mr. Bruce of Ripon : he is a gentleman on half-pay of thebeing made. This additional number of fellows, amounting army, a very talented and distinguished man, and lie has beento 242, of which ninety-three belonged to the public service, made mention of on several occasions in my works on accountby one of the errors in that charter, which I should wish to of his services; Mr. Bruce is very much hurt, of’ course, hav-notice as one that ought to be abrogated, are placed at the ing been more than thirty years a member of the College of

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Surgeons, that he should be excluded. The council could 47. Sir R. H. Inglis.]-In the construction which the col-know nothing about the matter. The great error was, that lege placed upon this charter, did they take the opinion ofthe 300 persons to whom we were limited, could not include the present Lord Chief Baron, or the present Lord Chiefa great number of men of merit throughout the country, who Justice of the Common Pleas, or any other legal authority ?-were entitled to the distinction; neither could the second I believe not; we had signified our wishes to the secretary of £list. What ought to have been done was, to have made a state, and the president of the college who succeeded mepublic announcement that itwas intended to select from among waited upon Sir James Graham, and was informed that it wasthe seniors of twenty years’ standing such men as we found it his wish that he should comply with the directions he had re-most advisable to place upon the list of fellows, or who were ceived from the law officer of the Home Office; therefore wethe most deserving of it. Mr. Bruce has applid to be made obeyed them, being informed by those gentlemen, whom I havea fellow, but we cannot do it; we must bring him up, we must mentioned before, that such was the intention of the framersexamine him, make him pay ten guineas, and then he will be of the charter. The paper, No. 596, to which reference hasplaced at the bottom of the list. There is a case of two gen- been made, was given to the public by Sir James Graham,tlemen of the name of Hall ; both of them are members of the who called for that paper, and placed it upon the table of thecollege, and surgeons in the army: in one of the lists given in House of Commons; there is reason to believe that he ap-by Sir James M’Grigor, Mr. Hall was put down; somebody proved of it, or he would not have called for it.made a mistake between Thomas and John Hall, and intend- 48. Had the college any reason to suppose that a royaling to send it to Thomas, we in fact sent the diploma to John; charter granted to that body ought to be construed in any otherJohn having got the diploma, stated that he was very much manner than that in which a charter granted to any gasobliged to us, that it was quite an unexpected honour, but company, for instance, might be construed-namely, by thethat he would keep it; he was informed that we had made a meaning which the terms would legally bear ?-I myself ad-mistake, and begged that he would send it back again, but he vised submission to the wishes of the secretary of state, be-being the senior of the two, said, 11 I do not know why you cause we could not help ourselves; we were a body as to whom,should select my junior in preference to me, and as you have if he thought proper to signify his pleasure to deprive us ofbeen so good as to forward the diploma to me, I shall keep it." our annual income, he could have done it whenever he pleased;We were absolutely obliged to make the other Mr. Hall come he had only to appoint another body to examine, on equalbefore us, to examine him, and having examined him, to terms with ourselves, and we should have been left nearlymake him pay a fee of ten guineas, and then we placed him destitute.at the bottom of the list; he is actually 138 below the place 49. Could the secretary of state have appointed any suchhe ought to have stood in, had not a mistake been made, body except by act of parliament ?-He could appoint us bywhich could not be corrected. charter, and so I take it he could appoint any other body.

30. Does your present charter limit the number of fellows 50. In giving this evidence to the committee, do you wish- No; it allows us to make as many fellows as we think just, them to understand that you are speaking as a private indi-who must, however, come up and be examined, and pay ten vidual, and not by the authority of any legal advice which youguineas after such examination. may have taken upon the occasion ?-I never asked any legal

31. The new charter allowed you to name 300 without exa- opinion upon the subject; I am stating a simple fact; it maymination ?-Yes, and without payment. be a thing that ought not to have been; but I am merely

32. Was that the whole number allowed to be named ?-It stating the fact that it was so declared to the council of thewas first 250, which was subsequently changed to 300 within college, that we were not expected greatly to exceed the 300;the first three months. and we did, I think, all that men could do, which was, to put

33. When the charter was passed, you were allowed to it upon paper and send it to the secretary of state; he havingname 300, who were to be fellows without payment and with- got it, places it upon the table of the House of Commons, andout examination, their nomination to take place within three there it is before the public; it has been the source of themonths ?-Yes. whole difficulty.

34. Did the ’charter allow you to name any number of 51. Chairman.]—That is the reason why you did not increasefellows you pleased after that ?-Yes, within the year. your number at the end of the first year ?-Yes.,

35. Upon payment ?—No, still without payment to make up 52. And in the subsequent year you could only elect uponfor any omissions that might be found to have taken place in the condition of the charter—namely, upon examination andthe first 300; after the year, everybody must pay and be exa- payment ?-And this has been so marked an error, that themined. The second list contained 242 names. council have of themselves applied to Sir James Graham for

36. But there was no limit to the number you might elect permission to alter that part of the charter.paying and being examined ?-No. 53. What was the date of the request for the amendment of

37. During even the first year there was no limitation as to the charter ?—20th July,1847; No. 699.the number you might have elected fellows without payment 55. The alteration which you suggested was, that youor examination, was there ?-The limitation was the impli- should have the power to elect fellows without a special exa-cation which I have endeavoured to explain, mination ?-The alteration which the council suggested was,

38. Apart from that implication, there is no limit in the that they should be allowed to correct the error which hadcharter?—No; only we were informed that it was not our duty been committed, and that they should admit to fellowshipsgreatly to exceed 300. gentlemen of a certain standing; I believe the period that

39. But the charter did not make the limit ?-,No; but the was approved of was twenty years; they were to be ad-framers of the charter did. mitted on payment of a fine. The council desired that they

43. Mr. French.]—Altogether, how many did you make the should pay, for this reason-that the gentlemen who had beenfirst year ?-Five hundred and forty-two. examined, the number of whom amounts to ninety-three44. Why did you limit your election to 542?-Because the within the last three years, had paid ten guineas; some ofgentlemen who were the private advisers of Sir James Gra- these were elderly men, and it was known that they would notham informed the council that it was not the intention of the like it, unless the parties who came in paid also. Therefore,framers of the charter that we should make more than 300, or with a view of conciliating all parties, it was agreed that theyat least that the council should not greatly exceed that should pay ten guineas. I assented to that for the sake of

number; as I mentioned before, the council did not know who conciliation in the council, though I objected to the period ofwere the framers of the charter, except Sir James Graham, twenty years, and wished it should be the shorter period ofand the law officer of the college; the consequence of that twelve years. All those gentlemen who consider themselveswas, that nearly all above that number of 300 were made with aggrieved, have asked, and it appears to me to be very reason-considerable difficulty, in consequence of its being considered able, that powers should be given to revise the charter, andto be in opposition to the wish of the secretary of state; and that the two lists should be amalgamated; the first list of 300as we had submitted ourselves to his will, a great part of the with the second list of 242, which was intended to remedy thecouncil thought it right to do exactly as they believed he de- omissions of the past; and that power should be given to thesired to have done. council to place upon this list of fellows all those who have

45. Mr. Lascelles.]-Had not the council the power within been accidentally overlooked, and others who may now bethemselves of remedying this grievance, if they had chosen to known to be deserving of that honour, as of course an honourexercise it ?-If they had thought it right to do it, under the it is considered to be; and that instead of confining it to a verycircumstances stated. few, the number should be augmented probably to 1000 or

46. Mr. French.]—Had you any official communication from 2000, and then the heart-burnings which have been felt bythe secretary of state to say that he wished the number to be these gentlemen would be removed; if all those who are reallylimited ?-No; only the expression of his supposed intention eligible from their character and station, but who have beenby those whom the council knew to be in his confidence. passed over in this way, had been elected, I have no doubt

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none of those difficulties which have taken place, and have titioners of midwifery into your council, have you the powergiven rise to the body called the National Institute, &c., would to do so by the charter ?-No, it excludes them; a physicianhave occurred. may practise midwifery, as Dr. Locock does; a surgeon may

60. Colonel Mure.]—Was there anything in the charter practise midwifery, as Mr. Stone does; and an apothecary maywhich precluded you from taking that course at first, if you practise midwifery; midwifery belongs to no particular body.had thought fit ?-The council were compelled to make but 129. Chairman.]—According to your statements, you do not300 fellows. admit them to your honours, and the College of Physicians

61. Supposing the council had made 300 in the way you do not admit them to their honours, and they would notpropose, having the qualification of the older members sent choose to accept honours at the hands of the general practi-in to them ?-It would have been a much better way of tioners ?-No, many would not.doing it. 130. Colonel Mure.]—Does not midwifery form part of the

62. Had you not the power of doing it in that way, or was education of a surgeon ?-The council insist that they shouldthere anything in the charter which precluded you ?—We had attend upon the practice of midwifery for six months, but thenot the right of doing it, from the by-law in existence, and College of Surgeons do not examine in midwifery; there shouldby which we were obliged to take those who practised surgery be an examination into midwifery, no doubt, but it has notonly, in the first instance. been decided who should examine.

63. Chairman.]—Is that under the new charter, or the act 131. You insist upon their studying midwifery for sixof parliament of 1745 ?-Under all. months, but you do not insist upon their being by any test

64. Did you not revise your by-laws under your new qualified practitioners ?-Except the certificate they bring,charter !-Yes, and which left them rather worse than before. that they have attended regularly for six months, and are so

65. Did you retain the by-law, that the fellows eligible to far qualified to practise that branch of the profession, therethe council should not practise pharmacy ?-Yes, and that ought no doubt to be an examination in midwifery, and theand other exclusions have made many practitioners so angry, council did everything they could to obtain it.that they have asked for a college of their own. 193. Mr. Wakley.]—You stated that there had been a con-

66. You have kept that by-law 1- Yes. fusion with regard to the operation of the existing charter;67. None of your members are eligible to be councillors if do you mean confusion at the elections ?-No, not at the elec-

they are practitioners of pharmacy, or if they are living tions, but confusion among the great body of the profession,beyond five miles from London ?—No; nor in midwifery. in consequence of the inconveniences and the grievances which

68. With the exception of surgeons in country hospitals ?- they thought they had suffered.They cannot succeed to the honours of the college, because 194. What are the alterations which you would make in

they do not live in London. -

the present charter ?-I would suggest that every gentleman70. Is there anything in the new charter to prevent your who was a member of the College previously to the late

revising that by-law, and altering it with respect to practi- charter being granted should be eligible to a fellowship ontioners in pharmacy and persons resident beyond seven miles producing a certificate of good conduct and character, such asof London ?-We might have revised the by-law, but they he produces to the Royal Society and others; and if it wereare excluded by the charter. To conclude my remarks on found that it was a correct certificate, and he had been twelvethe officers of the public service, I will beg leave to say, that years a member, he should be enrolled as a fellow; and Ithe matter has ended by their being placed upon the list of think it would be fair if it were without paying anything. Ifellows in five different ways. The cavalry of the guard are have agreed that they should pay £ 10, but my own feeling isplaced upon it in one way, the infantry of the guard in that they should be admitted without paying anything. Ianother way, the infantry of the line in a third, the navy in a would have authority to amalgamate the two lists we have atfourth, and the East India Company’s service in a fifth; so present and make them one. The certificate of character isthat there is no uniform rule in regard to either one or other necessary, because we have in our number, unfortunately,of these services. The head of the navy insisted upon doing persons who are porters and clerks, and actors and dancingas he pleased; the college yielded; he had his own way, and masters, and we could not of course place any of that classhe made an officer of the year 1841 a fellow, excluding officers with propriety upon the list of fellows. Instead of the Council

thirty years older, merely to prove his right, which caused being elected as it is, it should be elected very differently.the greatest confusion among them, and the greatest degree We have what is nominally called a constituency of 500of dissatisfaction. The next point which gave the officers of electors, but from circumstances the number present has neverthe public service great offence was this: when we had made exceeded 123; it has on one occasion been 79. I think theour first 300, and there was no person who was an apothecary council have infinitely more power, though it may be less goodwho was not an hospital surgeon also, or a " savant," among power, in the election than they had before, because it is quitethem, it was thought right, in this first list, to include a in their power to prevent any one coming in if they please.certain number of apothecaries to conciliate them-seventeen. It requires a larger number of electors to be at all secureInstead, however, of that gratifying them, as we did not take against the influence of the council; and therefore it is that Ithe seniors, but selected from among them certain individuals have always protested against the small number of electors.whom we knew to be excellent and good men, the conse- The officers of the public service have never been present atquence was they were more angry than before. To have any election in a greater proportion than one in forty.seventeen selected out of 10,000, to be placed upon the list as 195. Chairman.] - You are always sure of carrying thea compliment, was what they did not understand, and they " house lists" ?-Whatever the council of the college pleasewere very angry. But the army and navy were also very they can always carry, but they do not interfere, at least, notangry, because all those officers of forty years’ standing, some collectively.of them the most distinguished officers in the service, were 196. Mr. Wakley.]—You say you have the power to preventousted by those seventeen surgeon-apothecaries. They had a any one coming in; do you mean into the council?—Into theright, as I have pointed out, to stand before them, but these council; they can always arrange for any person they pleasegentlemen could not be placed, from their number, upon the who is first in succession. I believe, therefore, that the ancientlist by the council; but by p’acing those seventeen surgeon- mode of self-election was the best.apothecaries above them, it conferred a rank upon those 197. Chairman.]—Do you mean to say that you can secureseventeen gentlemen practising pharmacy, of which, they the election of a man, or secure his rejection?—The council(the surgeons) had been actually deprived,-of rights and can secure both, if they please.privileges which they had enjoyed for 100 years. Under 198. Mr. Wakley.J—In what way could you secure his elec-these circumstances, I am of opinion that, in any arrange- tion?—By letting it be understood that the council wished it.ments which may be made as to future legislation, the charter As the 100 men who attend are, generally speaking, personsof the College of Surgeons should undergo revision, and that greatly attached to the individual members of the council, anyany of those points which appear to require alteration should three or four members of the council can in the present daybe altered, more particularly because there are now certain secure the election or secure the rejection of any particularpropositions making on the part of different persons to legis- parties. I am not aware of its having been done.late after a fashion, which, perhaps, may not be better than 199. The names are proposed according to their senioritythe legislation which has hitherto taken place; and whilst a upon the list of the college, are not they ?-Yes; I wouldcharter is proposed to be granted to the general practitioner, alter that, if I had the power.to which I have not the slightest objection, it is not proposed, 200. In the case of a party being proposed and rejectedI believe, that the charter of the College of Surgeons shall according to the provision of the charter, he may be proposedbe revised or altered in any way, so as to remove the griev- a second time, may not he ?-Yes.ances I have mentioned.

-

I 201. And only a second time?—He may be proposed a128. Mr. Walkley.]—When you say you will not receive prac- second time, provided a certain number of persons will come

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forward to recommend him ; but if he cannot get that num-ber, he is passed by, and his misfortune is, that he is passedby without knowing it.

202. What is the number required?-He must have eleven.203. If he be not elected upon the second occasion he cannot

be proposed again?-No.204. Whatever may be his reputation or his merit ?-No.205. Do you deem that very objectionable 1-1 wish to make

an alteration in the whole matter; I would not let the elec-tors be troubled with the same person above three times; butthe objection I feel is this: a man does not know when he isto be passed by or elected; there is a case pending at the pre-sent moment in which a gentleman of good repute has beenpassed by. I should state that the council have not lately in-terfered at all; his friends had had no intimation that theyshould propose him, and they did not do it, because no oneknew he was next in succession; he is now to be put up onthe proposition of 11 ; but it is under much more unfavourablecircumstances; therefore it is possible, unless his friends areactive, that another accident may happen again. I desire thatevery candidate should be regularly proposed, as a candidatefor the situation of member of parliament is, or that every oneshould know whom he is going to vote for beforehand.

206. You stated that you had made an application to thesecretary of state to alter the charter, but that the conditionupon which the alteration would be made was burdened withother proposals which you could not sanction?-Yes, I for onestrenuously objected to the secretary of state’s proposition asnot being a fair one; others thought the same.

207. What was his proposition expressly ?-It was to dosomething that would have worked very unfairly towards thegreat body, and in favour of the fellows, who come in as suchat once.

Friday, March 3rd, 1848.

THE LORD ADVOCATE IN THE CHAIR.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir Henry Halford. IMr. Hamilton. ‘.

Sir R. H. Inglis.Mr. Lascelles. Colonel Mure.Mr. Wakley.George James Guthn’e, Esq., F.R.S., further examined.

212. Mr. Faey.]—You stated, in answer to a questionproposed to you at the last sitting of the committee, that youhad violated the charter on several occasions?-I should havesaid, contravened it. The charter directs, for instance, andit is the point which I think most objectionable in the newcharter, that there should be a change effected in the consti-tution of the council of the College of Surgeons; the council-lors were elected permanently, and the new charter directsthat they shall be elected every eight years. The consequenceof that election every eight years is a diminution of the re-spectability of the council in every respect; and it also ledto this, that instead of the president and vice-presidents beingselected from the examiners, as they had always been for 100years, they were directed to be taken from the council gene-rally. It has been found impossible to work the college underthose circumstances; instead, therefore, of taking the mem-bers in succession, according to the rota, we keep the customof selecting them from the court of examiners; thereforethe charter is so far. contravened, that the members of theccuncil generally do not, as the charter intended, succeed tothese offices, but it remains as it was before, it being foundthat the public business could not be well done otherwise. Ifthe president and vice-presidents were away from the courtof examiners, a great part of the business of the college wouldbe done without the executive officers, who would thus knownothing of its affairs. _

213. C7tM’m6tK.]—How did the election for eight years, inyour opinion, lower the character of the council ?-The officeof councillor of the College of Surgeons is given to a gentle-man, in consequence of a certain degree of station and emi-nence in his profession. The electors know nothing at thetime of his political qualifications; lie is elected on thegrounds I have mentioned. This is a most important pointin the new charter; it was one to which we were obliged tosubmit, though we steadily resisted it. One gentleman hasalready been elected three times in four years. Now, whena gentleman is brought forward for re-election, having beenonce placed in that situation in consequence of his characterand station, if he should not be re-elected it would very muchtend to lower him; and I am not aware that in either of theother learned professions, when a gentleman has attained toa certain station of honour, he is ever excluded from it by anycircumstances of re-election.

214. You think he should hold his office for life ?-I thinkevery person so elected should hold his office for life for thisreason: I am quite satisfied, from my practical knowledge ofthe subject, that whenever a councillor shall be removed, hewill not be removed by the body generally, but it will be bya cabal within the council itself, and I wish to protect themfrom that; it is unadvisable, I think, to do anything of thatkind; I think a gentleman should be retained permanentlyin his office of councillor; he is then elected as examiner, ifhe is thought to be fitted for that office, and he then succeedsto the honours of the college. I have no objection myself togentlemen being so elected, provided it were upon a, differentfooting; if the fellows who have to re-elect them could knowhow they have spoken in the council, and how they havevoted, then I should not have the least objection to their beingbrought forward every eight years; but as it is, we speak andvote in secret, the members know nothing about it, and it isin the hands of anybody out of doors who may choose to makespeeches against us, or to write against us, to bring us into.disfavour with the body at large, and then a man may findhimself, without any good reason, some day left out. I havethe greatest objection to anything of the kind; I think it de-tracts from the character of the profession at large.

215. Mr. I’Fo.Mey.]—Do you consider, in such a science asthat of medicine, that seniority in any respect should regulateelections ?-I think it should be so far attended to, that a cer-tain number of years should pass by before a man is placedupon the list for election.

216. After his competency has been tested by examination 1-Yes; I think it would be very absurd to place men of fouror five-and-twenty in the position of councillors of the Col-lege of Surgeons, which has hitherto been considered a postof honour conferred for good services in the profession.

217. Supposing he had shown by his labours, researches,and discoveries, that he was entitled to such an honour, donot you consider the members of the profession, who are thebest judges of what he has done, should have an opportunityof electing him ?-I think he should be twenty years a memberbefore he should be eligible to the honours of councillor, such.as they are.

218. Whatever his labours or discoveries may have been-That is putting a case that is not likely to happen; I do.not know anybody that has made such great discoveries, oranswered the conditions assumed in the question, under fortyyears of age; there may have been two or three, but theyhave been very few. I was a member of the council at thirty-eight ; that arose from my being a member of the college atsixteen, and the circumstance cannot occur again; no agewas fixed until 1802; and being an hospital mate at YorkHospital, I was ordered by the surgeon-general, the late Mr.Keate, to be examined or dismissed.

219. May not deferring the honour to so late a period be a.reason why more discoveries are not made by young men, in-asmuch as they have not the best stimulus to exertion in theearly period of their lives ?-The best stimulus to exertion is

. the favour of the public, and as soon as a man gains that, in

. all probability he will be elected into that situation, and thatis never done under twenty years.

224. Was not it the practice, under the charter of 1800, to! elect the members of the council invariably according to

seniority ?-No; the rule was this, that when a vacancy was. announced, the council assembled, and a list of the membersl was read over to them, beginning with the last elected; any, member of the council thinking that A, B, or C, when his

name was called over, was a fit and proper person to bel elected, moved that he should be placed upon the list, andT the whole chronological list, containing perhaps 500 or 600

names, was read over, till six eligible persons, who werei moved and seconded, were declared to have been obtained.When that list of six was completed, the council was sum-

o moned for another day, to consider the subject again. On- the second day, the secretary began again to read the names

in a similar manner; but we had now the information beforeus as to the gentlemen whom we considered eligible; and

t when the name of A was called over, one gentleman rose,) and proposed that Mr. A should be a member of the council;s if that was not seconded, it fell to the ground; but if it werei seconded, the proposer and seconder stating his name, andi the reasons why lie ought to be a member of the council, ifr no one opposed it, he was put to the ballot, and was made ai member of the council; but if any other gentleman opposed

it, on the ground that his merits were not sufficient, or he3 did not think him entitled to the honour, they were duly con-y sidered. I have seen discussions upon this subject last three-quarters of an hour, each party on both sides stating the