Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer Volume 17 Year Page Mary interview before a group 1986 2 Commentary & discussion 23 Louise interview before a group 1986 49 Commentary & discussion 60 Steve interview before a group 1986 63 Commentary & discussion 77 Lydia 1 st interview before a group 1986 92 Commentary 104 Lydia 2 nd interview before a group 1986 105 Commentary 112 These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold. Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Contents, page 1
Transcript
Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions
Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer
Volume 17
Year Page
Mary interview before a group 1986 2 Commentary & discussion 23
Louise interview before a group 1986 49 Commentary & discussion 60
Steve interview before a group 1986 63 Commentary & discussion 77
Lydia 1st interview before a group 1986 92 Commentary 104
Lydia 2nd interview before a group 1986 105 Commentary 112
These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold.
Throughout these interviews the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Contents, page 1
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.
Throughout this interview the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Carl Rogers interviews Mary “Witch” -1986Person-Centered Workshop, LaJolla, California
T: Now that everybody's settled and the mikes are on and so on, I'd like to be quiet for a minute or two and kind of get myself ready for our interview. So I'd like to just be quiet for a minute or two; maybe you'd like that too.
C: Fine.
T: O.K. I've gotten to know some of the people in the workshop a little bit, but I really haven't had any contact with you at all so, at least not that I'm aware of. So uh, I don't know you, and I'm looking forward to knowing you and whatever you'd like to talk about I'm very ready to listen to.
C1: (C sighs) (15 second pause) (C sighs) Well, I guess, mm, the thing for me to talk about now is where I am, where I've come to in this workshop. I keep wanting to look at my, my latest drawings up there.
T1: Uhm, hmm.
C2: Um uh, when I came in to the first level I, I had a sense that um, that I ... was sleeping, um.
T2: Uhm, hmm.
C3: In my life. Like I've come to a point in my life where that I thought I had wanted to get to um, in clearing out a lot of negativity that I had around me and a lot of patterns and uh I feel like I've done a lot of that but it's but it's not like I thought it would be. Now I'm in a place that I, I feel like I'm ready to create my life but I don't know how to do it. I don't have the models to do it.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 2
T3: Uhm, hmm.
C4: And um, in my drawings I, I, I’ve worked through that to the point where I feel like um I'm ready to, I'm ready to blossom and to do that somehow.
T4: Uhm, hmm.
C5: Um...
T5: Sounds like you cleared away a lot of the rubbish. Now, what are you going to build there?
C6: Yeah, right. I, I think, I think, I still have certain blocks about um, on, on my own power.
T6: Yeah, mmm.
C7: And um, whatever that connection is that I want with my, my deeper self or my truer self.
T7: Uhm, hmm.
C8: I, I feel like uh, my life in the world has been um, it's been strange. It's hard for me to talk about it because I always feel like, like it's different from what other people have experienced or like uh, um, like I'm trying to get to a different place too.
T8: They might not understand because whatever you're after is something that perhaps other people aren't trying for, that they wouldn't really recognize what it is you're, you're trying to do for yourself.
C9: Yeah, right. I don't see models around me for it.
T9: Uhm, hmm Uhm, hmm So whatever you're trying to create, there really is no model for that. It's something, something different.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 3
C10: That's, that's what I feel like. (C clears throat) I mean, it may be it may be there but I'm not recognizing it.
T10: Yes.
C11: Or, I mean I wonder if I still have a block that's keeping me from recognizing it.
T11: Uhm, hmm.
C12: Or if I just don’t know how to create the model.
T12: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C13: For it.
T13: Uhm, hmm.
C14: So...
T14: But you feel as though something is sort of holding you back from getting started? Is that...? (8 second pause)
C15: Yeah, I, I've had a lot, I've dealt a lot with um, being in this world and um, and, and resisting it because it's such a bizarre world.
T15: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C16: Um, the society is so bizarre and um, you see, now it's hard for me to talk about it because I start getting into all that, levels of uncertainty about what, what, what is my truth and then what is around me.
T16: Uhm, hmm.
C17: It's like those all got mixed together.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 4
T17: Uhm, hmm. And you're not quite sure whether you want to be in this crazy world.
C18: Well, I've come to the point where I accept that I do. I, I feel like I'm at the point now where I, I want to um, to express myself, to be myself, and to be of service.
T18: Uhm, hmm.
C19: And, and, and to do that, I have to find my, what is my truth, my, whatever that is, is what my service will be about.
T19: So, “What, what is the way that I want to be of service in this world, strange and bizarre as it is?”
C20: Well, I feel like that involves being in touch with (C clears throat) myself, my...
T20: Mmm, mmm..
C21: (C sighs) Um, I don't know if I even want to say my higher self, I don't know if it's an ...
T21: You want to be close to your inner truth, whatever it is.
C22: Yeah, yeah. And um (C sighs) I don't know, it’s always been just uh, I think that's what my life's about, finding out how to do that. It's just very difficult for me.
T22: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C23: Uh, there's been a lot of fear around that and I I'm dealing with that but there's still a lot of sense of, um, of being vulnerable.
T23: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm..
C24: And um, being being easily um, squashed.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 5
T24: Uhm, hmm.. So to creep out into the world, that's a very dangerous procedure because you're vulnerable. You might be squashed. It's frightening.
C25: (C sighs) (3 second pause) And then too, I think too, it's, it's also the sense of not being valued. Like what I value so much about myself, to put that out and um, have it be invisible to others because they don't see the value in it or they don't connect with it, um.
T25: Uhm, hmm.. I, I got a sense that you feel uh, kind of alone in that, not at all sure that anyone else would value what, what you might see as the way you want to be. (10 second pause)
C26: Yeah, there is a lot of that, there is a lot. I, I have been a very solitary person.
T26: Uhm, hmm.
C27: And very independent because I have not wanted to be dependent on that kind of approval from the world.
T27: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C28: But yet, on the other hand, I think I am.
T28: But I guess there is a real question, “Does this world have any place for me? For somebody that's solitary, that's different?” (5 second pause)
C29: Right. Right. I, I have. I've felt that the only way that I can really have anything to give or be of service is, (C sighs) I have to change myself somewhat to f-, to fit what others can perceive and make use of, you know? To fit into others, somewhat into the framework and the values and that kind of thing, in... the world.
T29: I don’t know whether I'm hearing that correctly, but it sounds as though you feel, “I've got to somehow fit their concepts of what I should be.” Or, “I've got to fit in somehow.”
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 6
C30: Right, or other people's perceptions or expectations of what they need. I, yeah, the sense that I, I have to change it somehow. That there's not the room to really explore and find out where I am, and so what is the value of that to, to then...
T30: So that you're quite sure there's no room really for the real you. You’ve got to modify that a little bit to fit what people expect.
C31: C sighs) Yeah, yeah.
T31: Uhm, hmm.
C32: I don't know. When when I hear it said, it sounds a little bit like ego. But maybe it, maybe it is that, but um, I don't know. No, I feel like it comes from a deep, a deeper fear.
T32: Uhm, hmm. So, it sounds like to me a very real feeling that you're not quite sure there is any place for the real you. You've got to shape it a little bit and fix it a little to fit what other people are looking for, or could understand.
C33: Right. (5 second pause) And I think maybe in that real me, maybe this is ... uh yeah, I think this is also it, that there, that the real me is not necessarily perfected and, and while there is a lot of power and a lot of um, energy and um, and goodness and um, truth and beauty and all that, there's also a side that that is not perfected.
T33: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. So you don’t --
C34: And, and that I'm afraid. And that I'm, (C sighs) I'm afraid of putting that out uh, uh, um, I'm afraid of having that condemned. And um, and I, I also think I'm afraid of the the power of that too.
T34: Uhm, hmm..
C35: And uh, and I know, on a spiritual level that I've looked at this, I'm, I'm afraid of, um (C sighs) I'm afraid of creating any more karma with that, is, is what it is. That of, of the backlash that's going to come back on it, um, like I've done that. I'm aware of having misused what I am, my
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 7
power, and uh, and I'm aware that there's a part of it that I don't know how to use properly and...
T35: Uhm, hmm.. So there's no...
C36: And that has consequences.
T36: Uhm, hmm.
C37: And uh...
T37: So there's no question about the strength of the inner power that you have. That, that you're sure of. But to let it out in its imperfect state, “Wow, that's dangerous.”
C38: Right. I, I don't even know if I have the right to do that actually.
T38: Uhm, hmm.. Because it's so powerful?
C39: Because I don't, um, because I'm not sure of being able to use it properly without...
T39: I see.
C40: ...hurting others or doing something that that will not be...
T40: Not, not only imperfect in itself, it might have imperfect consequences. It might harm or not really be always helpful.
C41: Right. And I'm afraid of harming myself as well as others.
T41: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm..
C42: I, I guess I'm afraid of my own power.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 8
T42: Uhm, hmm. I get a sense of that, that you're, you're a reservoir of enough power that, that means that, “God, what does it mean? It could be dangerous. It could be hurtful. It could be marvelous, but, but it's not perfect.”
C43: Yeah. I'm aware that it has been dangerous.
T43: Uhm, hmm.
C44: That I have used it that way.
T44: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C45: I feel that um, my some of my fears with that and the prohibitions and the controls and I, uh, the way in which I'm trying to grapple with it uh, has religious connections.
T45: Uhm, hmm.
C46: Um, I think maybe that the fear comes more from the religious connections than from the spiritual connections. Uh, and I, and by that I mean my sense of having um, (C sighs) I, I don't know. I feel like I'm getting into a heavy area and, (20 second pause). (C sighs) well, I got images of, of like being a witch and being um...
T46: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C47: ...being (5 second pause) condemned for that.
T47: Uhm, hmm.
C48: For, for being what my power is and yet having it um, uh, with, with its own integrity, you know? I mean, it is what it is and if it's imperfect. That is what it is.
T48: So it might come out pure and, and really what it is, “But my gosh, that might be, that might be a witch.”
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 9
C49: Right.
T49: A witch would be condemned by everybody.
C50: Yeah.
T50: Or a lot of people.
C51: And not in, not in just a, a moral way but in a, a life and death way.
T51: Uhm, hmm, uhm, hmm. You might in some very real sense be condemned to death for being the power that you are.
C52: Uhm, hmm. Yeah. Right, and so I think all those fears, now, now as I talk about them, are really more uh, physical and emotional than they are a sense of like...
T52: That they're what?
C53: They're real physical. They're on a survival level.
T53: Uhm, hmm.
C44: Um...
T54: “I don't want to be killed!”
C55: Yeah. So I think they're, you know, they're kind of ingrained in my subconscious and it holds me back, or or whatever it is. I mean wherever those patterns are that um, I can't consciously deal with.
T55: Part of, part of the real block is, "If I let my power loose into the world, I might be killed for that" (20 second pause)
C56: (C sighs) Or something horrible. In a way it's a little more nameless than that.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 10
T56: Yeah, O.K. Something terrible.
C57: And and so it's a little more unknown and that's even a little worse.
T57: Uhm, hmm.. “It might lead to some terrible fate for me.” (10 second pause)
C58: Right. And then there's, there's also the sense in it of... of being so wrong. I mean, of being puzzled at that. How could something that is so me be so wrong?
T58: Uhm, hmm, uhm, hmm.
C59: And so unacceptable and have consequences that are so surprisingly, um, (C sighs)
T59: “How could it be that the real true inner me could have such awful fateful consequences,” perhaps? “Could that really be?” That seems a real puzzle.
C60: Right. Or, or could just be so wrong.
T60: Yeah.
61C: Could, could be in a way so, yeah, so wrong.
T61: Yeah. Uhm, hmm. “If I let out the real inner me, how could that possibly be so wrong?” (12 second pause)
C62: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I have a a real sense of, of really wanting to embrace my, my own truth and my, my own connections and my, my whole self. Which is uh, you know, a big, huge expansive self and has a lot of connections of all kinds.
62T: Uhm, hmm, uhm, hmm.
C63: Um, both earthy and spiritual.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 11
T63: Uhm, hmm.
C64: Or both with nature and with the spirit.
T64: Uhm, hmm.
C65: Uh, and I have a real strong impulse toward that, and that, but I have this very strong or um, I mean this big, there's this big, “No!”.
T65: You really love yourself, rooted in the earth and reaching to the sky.
C66: Yeah.
T66: And very large and very whole.
C67: Yeah. I've, I've always had that sense of, “I'm O.K.” But in the world, in the world I'm not O.K. and I'm very insecure.
T67: Uhm, hmm, uhm, hmm.
C68: About myself in relation to other people and to the, the world, the world. And also um, what has been difficult for me is that sense of being um, being um, consonant with myself, in myself. And to me that's, that's being one with, with God or with the world, the universe, whatever that is.
68T: And, and this would be being confident with yourself?
C69: Consonant, uh, at, at one with, or in harmony with.
T69: At one with, uhm, hmm.
C70: And um, at the same time, on another spiritual level, more that of the religious level, being um, being just completely wrong.
T70: Uhm, hmm.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 12
C71: So that's a big split in me.
T71: Uhm, hmm.
C72: It's a... um...
T72: So on the on the spiritual level it seems O.K. Really you're, you're pleased with yourself.
C73: On one spiritual level, and on my own inner spiritual level, and yet with...
T73: But on the religious level...
C74: ...the kind of religious level, religious spiritual level that I have been embued with, um
T74: Yeah, uhm, hmm, the religious spiritual level that comes from the outside.
C75: Yes and...
T75: That seams, “Oh wow.”
C76: And I have a sense, a sense of the whole history of that on me. Like I have a whole history that goes back to the beginning of, of um, religion and the world or wherever.
T76: Beginning of time?
C77: And always having that, that kind of split, that sense of, “Here I'm O.K., and here I'm not.”
T77: Uhm, hmm. So that in some sense...
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 13
C78: So I mean it's not just like, like in this lifetime. I, I was, you know, I was born in the Catholic church and I have, and I have a sense of, of centuries of that, (T: Uhm, hmm.) on me.
T78: Uhm, hmm. From the beginning of time you feel there's been this split in you between the...
C79: Yeah.
T79: ...the real spiritual essence of you.
C80: Yeah.
T80: Which is really O.K. And the religious spiritual um, ethos of the, of the time which is bad, wrong.
C81: Right, of, of all, of my society. And so how can I be a part of my society?
T81: Uhm, hmm.
C82: If, I mean in that way, I just absolutely don't fit in, (T: Uhm, hmm.) and will never fit in, unless I deny myself.
T82: Uhm, hmm. You feel that...
C83: And, and yet, and yet so what that does is it, it cuts off my sense of wanting to be one with the world around me and with, with um, the whole movement of, of my society, my culture, the human race and all of that kinds of things. I feel the need to be in um, to be in harmony with and to be a part of, and to be working towards um, wherever we're going.
T83: You feel sort of doomed that, that uh, this expansive real inner you has not and never will fit into the world as it is.
C84: Well, I, I, I've never given up hope that it never, will.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 14
T84: O.K. Has not and does not fit into the world as it is.
C85: Yeah. Yeah.
T85: Uhm, hmm.
C86: (C sighs)
T86: But you haven't given up hope.
C87: No.
T87: It might fit.
C88: I keep working at it. (Pause) But I have not resolved it, with all the work I've done. I have not come to that feeling. (Pause) (T: Uhm, hmm.) Only on certain levels can I do that. I'm, I'm more outer, I mean, I began to be able to create outer levels of myself that can do that but I, I don't want it to be that way. I want it to be whole.
T88: Uhm, hmm. The idea of sort of, the image that comes to my mind, sort of shaving off parts of yourself in order to fit, really doesn't appeal. You want to be your whole self.
C89: Yeah, because I feel that's my gift, that...
T89: Uhm, hmm. That's your gift, that's your uniqueness, you'd like to be that.
C90: And in a way, I feel like it's my um, my, my directive from the universe or from an um…
T90: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C91: ...and it’s part of the race, the human race.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 15
T91: So the universe really wants you to be that whole person.
C92: Well, that I don't um, well again that...
T92: That's putting it too strongly.
C93: ...that split applies there too.
T93: Uhm, hmm.
C94: Um, I don't know, it doesn't make sense. It's not logical, but... (C sighs)
T94: Nevertheless, you do feel that it's part of the directive. Part of the way the universe is constructed, that you might be your whole self and yet...
C95: (15 second pause) Somewhat I, I have made this um, into a conflict in myself. I, I've kind of um, seen this sort of conflict between the male and female, although I, I in some ways that's not completely true. But the sense of being in touch my uh, my deepest nature and of being willing to go along with that, and be that, in the sense of having to be out and fit myself into the universe outside of me. I'm coming to resolve the thought, that that's something I've kind of put on it and...
T95: Uhm, hmm. And you've seen it in terms of male and female...
C96: I, I, I have in the past a lot, yeah. Um, yeah it has been, it has been a lot of that. Yeah, it has been a sense of as a female I cannot experience those uh, those connections.
T96: What is it? As a female you really don't have the right to be that whole self in the universe.
C97: Right, because um, religion is after all very male or-, ori-, um...
T97: Oriented.
C98: Oriented, and dominated. Male dominated.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 16
T98: Uhm, hmm.
C99: And um, and so, so on a spiritual level it's a struggle for me too because um, I, I'm trying to get back in touch with that but yet I, a lot of me for a long time has been angry at God. The God that I have had to deal with in the world, which is a male God.
T99: The God that has said, "You're only a woman, you don't really have the right to be fully out there."
C100:Yeah. And so, so I feel blocked between that, that sense that I have of whatever is really the, the spirit, the source. (C sighs) (Pause)
T100: Some sort of a sigh or something.
C101:Yeah, it's (C sighs) well, I feel like I've clarified some of what it is, but I still feel like it's, it's um, the immovable, immovable force, I mean, you know the two things that, that are butting against each other.
T101: Sort of...
C102:I don’t see resolution in it.
T102: Sort of a sigh of resignation that, “Yeah, O.K., uh, that's what it is but it's still there, still there. (Pause) Still impossible to move out.”
C103:I feel like I incorporate it so um, on all of my levels, like down to my cells it's in me.
T103: Uhm, hmm.
C104:That way of um, being conflicted in uh...
T104: Seems like you can't possibly free yourself from something that is so deep it's right down to the level of every cell in your body. (Pause). That you're not permitted to be out there.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 17
C105:Yeah, it seems to me to be the way the universe is constructed, and I don't know...
T105: Uhm, hmm.
C106:I don't see resolution.
T106: Uhm, hmm. Little bit of resignation or even hopelessness.
C107:Yes.
T107: Uhm, hmm. “That's the way the universe is. I'll never be able to come out as I am.”
C108:Yes. That's it. (Pause). And there's also the spark in me that won't die, that won't, that won't give up.
T108: You're resigned. You're a little bit hopeless, but still there is something that says, “No, I’m not. I haven't given up.”
C109:Well, a part of me knows that there, (C sighs) that there is wholeness. Part of me knows. I don't know how to create it, (Pause). or let it be created.
T109: Uhm, hmm.
C110:(C sighs)
T110: Uhm, hmm. You don't quite know how to give yourself permission or to, how to create the opportunity, or how to really let yourself loose.
C111:I’m just getting a sense that maybe um, what I have to do is, (pause) open up and uh, and accept that whole world that I want to...
T111: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C102:...that I want to reject and that wants to reject me.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 18
T112: Uhm, hmm.
C113: Somehow to swallow that.
T113: Uhm, hmm.
C114: And uh…
T114: Sounds like you're saying maybe you sort of have to bypass that feeling that, that you're rejecting the world and the world is rejecting you, that somehow you have to open up to something larger than that.
C115: Yeah. Maybe that's the only way to do it.
T115: Mmm?
C116: Uh, that maybe that's the, that, that, I don't know, I'm getting an image of that.
T116: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C117: That, that's, that this doesn't work.
T117: Uhm, hmm.
C118: Well, I've certainly tried this, but it...
T118: I mean it doesn't work, and that maintaining it, somehow I'm maintaining that.
C119: Uhm, hmm.
T119: By, (C sighs) by resisting, by resisting it being that way. I have an image of a snake. Uhm, hmm.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 19
C120:Um, for some, of a snake swallowing some big kind of, of a snake, swall… a big animal of some kind.
T120: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C121:And digesting it.
T121: I was going to say.
C122:All of it.
T122: Digesting the whole damn bit, uhm, hmm.. Bones and all.
C123:Swallowing it whole.
T123: Uhm, hmm. Taking it in, uhm, hmm, right. Uhm, hmm.
C124:And being nourished by it, it becomes a part of it.
T124: Be-?
C125:Becomes part of the snake.
T125: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C126: (C sighs)
T126: Sounds like a pretty healthy snake!
C127: Uhm, hmm. In a way it's the world. It's an image of the world.
T127: Uhm, hmm.
C128:The planet.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 20
T128: Uhm, hmm. They tell me your time is about up.
C129:(C laughs) (20 second pause) Yeah, I feel myself straddling now, right now, straddling in the sense of just letting go of this, these two...
T129: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C130:...things and um, and moving to this.
T130: Uhm, hmm. It's really a different thing than finding a solution to this conflict. It's a, it's a --
C131: There is no solution as long as I hold the conflict.
T131: ...a, like swallowing that thing and moving on.
C132:Yeah. So I have to do it another way.
T132: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C133:I feel right in the center now.
T133: Uhm, hmm.
C134:The conflict is over here and this one's over here.
T134: Yeah, it's a different, it's a new option or a different alternative or something.
C135: (Sighs) Uhm, hmm. Yeah. A new model.
T135: Uhm, hmm. New model.
C136: Yeah.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 21
T136: O.K. Uhm, hmm. O.K. to bring it to a close?
C137:Yes.
T137: Uhm, hmm.
C138: Thank you.
T138: Uhm, hmm. Thank you.
C139:Thank you.
End of Session
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Mary Interview, page 22
Comments
T1: Let's uh let's stay here a moment and let's see uh after a minute or two if you uh feel like it or are able to, you could tell the group something of how this interaction felt to you and I'll tell them how it felt to me, then we could let them in on it perhaps.
C1: O.K. (Pause) Do you want me to? I mean...
T2: If you're willing to, if you're able to.
Participant: Do you need a break at all?
C2: No, no, no.
Participant: Um.
Participant: No. That's --
C3: Uh no, I, I don't think so no really. Well, it felt very easy for me to to go into this, um and it's something that that I have felt is uh um been wanting to talk about and it's difficult for me to talk about with other people because of the nature of it being, um I mean, I don't know, it's something that I've not wanted to put out. I, I felt like few people would understand it or connect with it or I don't know and there's elements of it being kind of a odd, odd fantastic...
T3: Little strange. Uhm, hmm.
C4: Yeah. But you were right there, and and I was willing to also let go of that and go with it. I had no idea I was going to get to there, to that. Uh it, it, it just it went, I mean I don't know what to say about it, it was just kind of perfect. Went right to a conclusion and just --
T4: All right, (laughs) kind a crazy too. Uh I felt uh very much with you, partly I'm sure because of uh my own personal feelings of being a loner and not quite--so I related on that basis, not on some of the other things you were
saying but uh I didn't find it difficult to be with you and I I really felt I could feel what it was like to uh uh to perhaps, you know, if you came out really, maybe you would be a witch uh, uh and then just then to see that gradually get clear until finally that part was set aside in a different way of perceiving the world (Inaudible, either “ready” or “really”.) crept in. That was exciting. Uh.
C5: You were very empathetic.
T5: Yes, I was. I felt, I felt that.
C6: That was what enabled me to do that uh because this this thing in me um stops at the least bit.
T6: Uhm, hmm, that's right. I, I felt that uh it's one of the one of the angles that has, has a lot of meaning to me, that, uh, empathy needs to be very delicate. I mean that, uh, you are exposing a very vulnerable part of yourself and the least little thing that looks like misunderstanding or rejection or judgement or something can just shut it all off.
C7: Uhm, hmm.
T7: And uh --
C8: There's not one bit of that. Not one molecule.
T8: No, I didn't feel there was. That's true. Uhm, hmm… Once you try -- (somewhat?) a shade beyond what you were feeling, but you corrected that and it uh, no, I felt a, I felt a real real bond, uhm, hmm. It was uh --
C9: Well, it helped me the way you were searching to --
T9: Uhm, hmm. I was wanting to understand that.
C10: Yeah, to understand. I don't know if it was so much understanding, more uh something more more than that it seems like.
T11: Yeah, I really wanted to experience what you were experiencing and, uh, your conversation is quite vivid and that helped me to really get the feel of it, uhm, hmm, uhm, hmm.
C12: And your willingness to do that, um, opens it up for me. It, it just clears - - the space is clear.
T12: And just as you had no notion that you might arrive where you arrived at, neither did I. Uh, whatever else is evident in this interaction is that the client knows best. You don't know that you know best, you don't consciously know where you're going, but if I can trust that and just be with you wherever each strange step of the way, why it, it leads somewhere and uh, just to be a little absurd. If I had had some goal for this interview, I would have wrecked it, it would have completely wrecked it. But just to try to be completely with you wherever you went and you went in different ways and and then really saw a new door opening and that was uh that was your doing, you know.
C13: I’m, I'm real sensitive to being directed in any way.
T13: Uhm, hmm.
C14: Or pushed in any way.
T14: Uhm, hmm.
C15: So this is the only way it could have worked for me. I know that, and, and I had a little bit of unspoken fear, very little though, because I had a sense that, that with you it would be O.K., but, um, I know with others, um, that it would come to a place where somehow there would be a little bit of a block or a, uh, pushing away on the other person's part that would just stop me cold.
T15: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. And it wouldn't have taken long.
C16: And out of that I would come to a more superficial level on something, you know, I'd have to grope for something else that might be more acceptable to that.
T16: Something nice. Shall we let them in on it for a bit?
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.
Throughout this interview the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Carl Rogers’ Interview with Louise [code name] – 1986
T: I appreciate your being willing to be the client, and I don't know what you might want to talk about.
C1: Um, I don't either. Just a moment, um. I guess I'd like to say howI feel right now… (T: Uhm, hmm.) um, which is, uh, which is a little… I'm thinking about I'll talk about anxiety. Yesterday I remember saying, “My palms are sweating.” (T: Uhm, hmm.) And, um, when N. asked me and we were doing… just after we did the dance, I suddenly became aware I wasn't wearing very much and, and I thought, “Well, that's how I feel. I feel vulnerable.” (T: Uhm, hmm.) And, and a bit naked, yeah. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Um…
T1: Both. Both anxious and exposed.
C2: Yeah.
T2: Uhm, hmm.
C3: In some ways that's a good feeling and that… and it comes off what we just did in our small group, um, similar to the process that we did this morning with three drawings. And at the end of it I, um, I felt… well, when I was looking back, particularly at two of the drawings, I felt aware of my… I was quite overwhelmed at what I… at what had come out of those drawings. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Um… the, the beauty of them, and that's something I can see with my eyes closed. (T: Uhm, hmm.) So it was good to… I suppose it was good to be aware and in touch with and rejoicing at my inner beauty. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Um… so it's a continuation of the, this morning's process.
T3: It's not part of the way I usually operate. If you'd like to, would you like to have the drawings here to talk about them or not?
C4: Um, yeah, I'd like to show you them.
T4: Okay. I don't know. (Inaudible) let somebody else get them.
C5: There. Well, that pile, the orange pile, yeah. Okay. That's one. Yeah, the three, the three, yellow one, no… yeah. (Pause.) Those are the two that I was impressed with. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Um… that was the one, that was… this is the first one. (T:
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 49
Uhm, hmm.) I can't remember which… I think this one. And I noticed that it, it's not new to me, those shapes, those colors. So it's like something that's been going on for a long time that I’ve only just fully noticed. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T5: And you want to say something about each one? (Pauses.) You say this is the first one, huh?
C6: Yeah. Well, what C. was suggesting to us was that we took two, we took two, uh… something that was bothering us or something that was in us and the two extr-…the two sides of that. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And something that's, um, something that has just occurred to me, everyone will laugh, but anyway, the, the, um, somebody who's been picking up leaves and been around in the garden this week that I've been saying hello to suddenly asked me for a date just before I came to the small group. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.)And, uh, I like talking to him, but when he asked me out I was terrified. And, uh, that's… I realized I don't have to go out with him, there's no time. So (Inaudible) I said that to him and, uh, and came up here. But it made me think of, um, those polarities in my life, that I long for a partner and yet I fear that as well. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T6: It may have been a very small incident, but still it symbolized some things for you.
C7: Right.
T7: Both the longing and the fear.
C8: That's right, yeah.
T8: Uhm, hmm.
C9: So this is the first drawing. (T: Uhm, hmm.) What I took was exactly that, the longing and the, and that fear and that was, that was the longing. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And what I was going to draw next was the fear and I thought what was going to come out was another black picture of some sort, and instead, well, I guess my joy and beauty came out. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Which, uh, just seemed in a way like an extension of that one, (T: Uhm, hmm.) rather than, (T: Uhm, hmm.) rather than opposite.
T9: They somehow seem to belong together and yet they came out quite differently.
C10: Yeah, yeah.
T10: And one, if I understand it, one is sort of polarized. The other is, is real joyous.
C11: That's right. Yeah. They seem like a progression instead of opposites in a way. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) (25 second pause.) Something, um, that occurred to me
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 50
about what I wrote this morning, when I was, uh, feeling the failure of my father. And, uh, I don’t know. This is just real searching and just something that came out, but (T: Uhm, hmm.) I wondered if, uh, how my relationship with him affects my relationship in general with men. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) The fact that I'm much closer to my mother (T: Uhm, hmm.) And yet sometimes I feel like I don't know him at all. And, um, the sadness of that was coming out as well as feeling his… all the sadness for him failing at things that he wants to do, and also the sadness that I don't know him as well as I'd like to.
T11: Uhm, hmm. So it's sadness for him in his situation but sadness on your part that you don't know him.
C12: Yeah, yeah.
T12: And I don't know, you mentioned failure. I don't know, are you speaking about his or about yours in his eyes?
C13: Um I think I felt his, uh… yeah, I guess he would say, he would acknowledge his failure. I guess, I felt it very much since he had a very good position in R. I was all concerned with out, with the outward world but that's what I was concerned with then. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And then we came back and he was forty and he had to take a very much… a job that much inferior to his ability and that's how it's been really, and he's now 65. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) Um… and, well, I just think of my own failure that, that went along with his, really, that I, I didn't do as well as people expected of me at school and as I expected of myself, I guess. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Because my parents certainly didn't lay anything heavy on me.
T13: Hm?
C14: My parents didn't lay anything heavy on me about what I should get. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) And then that continued until I was… for the next ten years, more or less. I failed the degree I was doing at college. Um… then I fumbled around trying to think what I would do. And then finally I went back to college and I did this degree. And I have this bad experience with this tutor, (T: Uhm, hmm.) um, who, more or less, told me that I was a failing teacher, you know. I think deep down, inwardly, I didn't believe that, but it's taken a while to work that off. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T14: So in the eyes of your father, in the eyes of your tutor, sometimes in the eyes of yourself, you've often been a failure even though in regard to the tutor, you feel, “I'm right and he's wrong. I'm not a failure”.
C15: Yeah. In my head.
T15: Hmm?
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 51
C16: In my head I can say that easily. (T: Uhm, hmm.) But in my heart, (T: Uhm, hmm.) it's still being accepted.
T16: Your heart says, “He might be right. He might be right.”
C17: Yeah, that's right.
T17: “Maybe I'm a failure.”
C18: Yeah. Well, I guess doing this has begun to change that. I mean, just last night becoming much more in touch with that. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And, and even just doing this, this afternoon, acknowledging my own strength and all that positive side.
T18: And I notice you didn't mention the third picture.
C19: Uhm, hmm. This one?
T19: I assume.
C20: Well, I felt like it was a continuation of, of the yellow one.
T20: Yeah.
C21: And, um, when C. suggested that we move to it, or express that in movement, I saw myself, um, standing on a cliff, uh, kind of… huh, it's interesting, welcoming the sunrise.
T21: Uhm, hmm. So that's that.
C22: That's that. Yeah.
T22: Uhm, hmm. It looks like the strongest of the three.
C23: Yeah.
T23: So, in your feelings, that's you welcoming the sunrise, and standing on a cliff.
C24: Yeah. (Pauses.) I was thinking about the metaphor, and I understood that before, I was thinking about the metaphor of the sunrise like that being be me, (T: Uhm, hmm.) um, acknowledging myself.
T24: That you are the sunrise.
C25: Right. Yeah.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 52
T25: Emerging from darkness.
C26: Yeah.
T26: Uhm, hmm.
(END OF AUDIOTAPE SIDE 1)
C27: A good feeling.
T27: I say, it looks like it looks like that was sinking in.
C28: Yeah.
T28: Uhm, hmm.
C29: Yeah.
T29: A very good feeling.
C30: I'd like to read you what I wrote. Would that be Okay?
T30: Okay. Uhm, hmm.
C31: Um, (Inaudible) I'm surprised. I'm awed. This is me. Feelings and shapes of beauty that came out of me. In spite of that large dark black brooding woman sitting there condemning. In spite of that. In spite of her being there. In spite. In spite of it all, here I am writing poetry. Wonderful. Bloody marvelous. (Pauses.) I felt really good.
T31: Bloody marvelous is right. Was your tutor a woman?
C32: Yes.
T32: Oh, funny, I had visualized he was a man.
C33: A man, yeah.
T33: I see. Uhm, hmm Uhm, hmm.
C34: So I happened…
T34: So that's another version of the sunrise.
C35: Yeah, yeah. (Pause.)
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 53
T35: Uhm, hmm. And quite bloody marvelous, hmm? (Laughter.)
C36: (Laughs.) (Pauses.) Huh. I was just thinking of the dark woman there. Last night, when I was, um, working with S., she, she, um, suggested that we work in a Gestalt way. I worked with the woman (Inaudible) talking to her. And through that I realized that, um… that was when I got in touch with this condemning part of myself that she… that I like internalized her. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And, um, well, I just feel like she has much less power now. I mean, (T: Uhm, hmm.) I feel that that critical side of myself is still there, but it's much more healthy, healthy side.
T36: Sounds a little bit as though that dark woman inside of you has been moved outside somewhat. Maybe that's not right.
C37: Uhm, hmm. Well, it's funny, I w-, I was almost thinking that she wasn't there.
T37: Okay. C38: And then I was thinking of what D. said, that it's good to have a critical person
there. And I thought, “Yes, there’s probably something there.” Like that I think she's almost part of this. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T38: Maybe some other strength is in there?
C39: Yeah.
T39: Uhm, hmm.
C40: That part of being self-critical in a healthy… (T: Uhm, hmm.) not overpowering way. Uhm, hmm.
T40: Maybe you can retain some of the healthy parts of her but not the condemning part.
C41: Yeah, yeah. (20 second pause.) (T: Uhm, hmm.) Hmm. I'm really drawn to it. (Laughter.)
T41: Yes, I can see that. Uhm, hmm. It looks as though you look at it and look at it and, “That really is me”.
C42: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. I was thinking, um, it seems strange in a way to have taken so long to come to that realization. (Long pause.) (T: Uhm, hmm.) And then I was thinking, “No, that's okay.” (T: Uhm, hmm.) Okay. (T: Uhm, hmm.) And I think before the black woman would have said, “Louise, honestly, it's taken so long to come to this point."
T42: Uhm, hmm Uhm, hmm. "Why have you been so slow, for heaven's sake?"
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 54
C43: "All this money spent on workshops."
T43: “I know. Terrible.”
C44: Hmm. It's a real magnet! Huh. (Laughter.) (Pauses.) There was some sense when, um… after N. had asked me about doing this, that I arrived at a very good place and didn’t I have anything more to say. You know, like I immediately wanted to, to do this and yet I thought that my process in some ways was complete.
T44: You thought, "I'm in a good place so what in the world is there for me to say?"
C45: Yeah, yeah.
T45: And I get the feeling this is sort of a celebration.
C46: Yeah. Yeah. It certainly is.
T46: You are drawn to that! (Laughter.)
C47: That's right. It's like I feel guilty now, should be giving my attention to you!
T47: I know the feeling. Can't take your eyes off your masterpiece! (Laughter.)
C48: (Laughs.) Was that how it was for you with your (Inaudible)?
T48: I'm sorry?
C49: When you did your, um, painting that you really liked?
T49: Yes. Yes, I, I like to look at that. Uhm, hmm.
C50: Hmm. (Pause.)
T50: Mmm. It looks like you're really appreciating it and appreciating you.
C51: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I still find it strange that I haven't got that sense of awe before but, (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) suddenly that came out of me.
T51: Uhm, hmm. A sense of wonder and a sense of, "Really?"
C52: Yeah.
T52: "I gave birth to that."
C53: Yeah. That's true. I was just thinking of birth.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 55
T53: Mmm. “It makes me feel that I really could do something.” Uhm, hmm.
C54: Yeah.
T54: A person like that could do something.
C55: Yeah. Could do something, yeah.
T55: Uhm, hmm.
C56: Last night, one of the things that surprised me was the Gestalt thing with C., with, um…. I was talking to this, uh, tutor professor of mine, (T: Uhm, hmm.) and, um, and one of the things I, I wanted her to acknowledge was that I had potential and, um… creativity and that I could be a real leader in my field. And it was, I was kind of shy about saying that to her. But, but I also wanted to say it and, uh, and that… I was just thinking of that then. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T56: I wasn't sure of what you said. You wanted to acknowledge that in yourself or you wanted her to acknowledge that in what, in what you did last night?
C57: Well, I guess, it amounts to the same thing. Yeah.
T57: Okay. Okay. Yeah.
C58: Yeah.
T58: You wanted the dark woman in you to acknowledge that.
C59: Acknowledge that, yeah. (Pause.)
T59: I guess, you can see she acknowledged it.
C60: Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. (Pauses.) Yeah. I was thinking, um, if this means that I accept my own failure more and (inaudible) as like a thing of the past, and now I can really do something. (T: Uhm, hmm.) I was thinking I could perhaps help my father to do the same. (T: Uhm, hmm.) Um, I know that, uh, I know one of the reasons I'm not close to him is that to some extent I back away from his, his pain, which he hides very mu-, very well. Uh, one of the most difficult things about him is that he, he talks and talks about th-, well, about, what sounds to me about, no… nothing, about politics and about, um… well, mostly politics. (Sighs.) Um, but that's… when I can really hear that, I hear it being a defense for everything that's going on behind it, but, um, often I'm not able to bear it, I want to run away.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 56
T60: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. You really can't stand this talk because of what are the feelings you sense behind it?
C61: Behind them, yeah.
T61: And yet now you're wondering, "Maybe I could get close to him, maybe I could even be of help to him?"
C62: Yeah. Yeah. Like I go back there and just reassure myself that that person could do that. (Laughs.)
T62: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. If you can take that back with you inside, why… mmm. I guess in the way you put that, you're not quite sure but that's what you'd like.
C63: That's right. (20 second pause.)
T63: I can't help but say that picture's going to be engraved on your brain. Isn't it?
C64: (Laughs.) I was just thinking he's coming up for retirement soon. T64: Hm?
C65: My father's just coming up for retirement, so there's going to be a lot more time for him.
T65: Oh.
C66: Mhm, hmm.
T66: Mhm, hmm.
C67: Well, let's see, yeah. (Pauses.) It changes me thinking about him. I can feel like I'm, I'm not like glowing with the sun, I feel sad.
T67: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm. Thinking about him takes the sunshine away sort of. You feel, feel for him. Sounds like he's very much in your thoughts and feelings.
C68: I suppose it makes me feel like I’ve had all this opportunity and, and he got stuck so early and he stayed in that stuck-ness.
T68: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.
C69: (Cries.) He's been to one workshop and, uh, he's much more open to kind of growth ideas now. (T: Uhm, hmm.) He broke a tele-, he broke a telephone after, it was retreat (inaudible)… I think you were there in fact. He broke a telephone when he came back because he couldn't kind of bridge (inaudible). He was mad at
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 57
the world after this wonderful experience that he had. I think that made him stop exploring further.
T69: So his freedom of expression stopped with the telephone? (Laughter.)
C70: Right.
T70: But you feel he did have a taste of it.
C71: Yeah. Now I feel, with me, now he really tries to… what he'll do if my mother is in is if I phone, he'll talk briefly to me and then he'll say, "Right, your mother's here," as if he has nothing to offer me. But if she's away and I phone and, uh, I'm in trouble, I'm wanting support of some sort, he'll, he'll really try. (Pauses.) Um, it reminds me of one time he got up to dance and, uh, he stopped because he felt like Pinocchio. And I feel that somehow he's (Inaudible) wanting support is like that. He really, well, just needs to loosen up a bit and... (Voice trails away)... have more faith in himself.
T71: You really want very much for him to go through the kind of process that you're
going through.
(Long Pause.)
C72: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose I want him to be more aware of himself. (Pauses.) Of what a fine person he is.
T72: Hmm?
C73: Of what a fine person he is.
T73: Yeah. You wish very deeply he could paint a picture like that.
C74: Yeah. (T: Uhm, hmm. Uhm, hmm.) He's so very self-critical. And he puts it out there sometime and it's Thatcher he’s attacking or Reagan or some political figure like Khadafy. But, uh, it has to do with the attacks that he makes on himself, I feel.
T74: Mmm. You feel he has a dark critic inside of him.
C75: Yeah, very dark.
T75: It seems very short to me, but they say that our time is about up.
C76: Right. It's amazing. Seemed like ten minutes.
T76: (Laughs.) Mhm, hmm.
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 58
C77: Well, I certainly haven't, hadn't fully acknowledged the power of that picture.
T77: You really drank in that picture, didn't you?
C78: Yeah.
T78: Mhm, hmm.
C79: I felt almost like, like it wasn't a part of what I should be doing here. Since I was with you I should be talking to you, and it was just, it just kept drawing me.
T79: Mhm, hmm. It just had a magnetic power.
C80: Yeah.
T80: Mhm, hmm. Can we leave it with you looking at your painting?
C81: Sure. (Laughs.)
T81: Okay.
C82: Thank you, Carl.
End of Session
Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume17, Louise Interview, page 59
Comments
T1: That's very good. Uh, again if you feel like it, you can say a little bit about what the experience seemed like to you and I'll do the same.
C1: Right. Well, I felt at the beginning like in some sense I didn't have anything to talk about. (T: Mhm, hmm.) Um, and then when I made that known to you, I felt certain you accepted it. It was okay just to be here. Um, that made, that made me feel easier. Um, it was a strange mixture for me of, uh, feeling like maybe I wasn't doing quite the right thing and yet doing it in spite of, in spite of myself, or in spite of that same judge thing.
T2: Mhm, hmm. No dark woman is going to tell you whether it was right or not.
C2: That's right. I just said, “To blazes” and I just did it. But all the same, it was reassuring what I felt when it was okay to you to be continually drawn to that. Yeah. And, uh, I suppose it was sort of mysterious to me how, although I can see how it happened, but amazing would be the word I'd use, when I made the connections. I mean, everything seemed… I could be talking about so much in my relationship with men, my own failure, my father's failure, my sense of joy, um, and somehow… how they came together, um, especially with my father and feeling how that connected with him, um. So it's been very helpful to see that. (T: Mhm, hmm.) And, and to be aware of his darkness, yeah. (T: Mhm, hmm.) I guess also I didn't feel, I didn't feel completely relaxed all the way through, but somehow it was okay. Um, I mean that's, gosh… I'm a, I'm a, I'm just seeing how little power that that critic has because I think, you know, that’s the same thing; “Louise, you weren't relaxed!” (inaudible) and I somehow… it was okay. I didn't, um…
T3: You weren't talking about problems, you weren't sufficiently relaxed, all kinds of things wrong.
C3: Yeah, right.
T4: Only they weren't.
C4: And yet I didn't feel they had too much weight. (T: Mhm, hmm.) Yeah.
T7: Mmm. It was an unusual experience for me, uh, because usually people do come because they have some problem. And, uh, it was really very refreshing to have, I don't know, to sort of be present at the emergence of the new woman. That's (inaudible). Mhm. Mhm. And, uh, it's a little bit weird that here we were making use of all of the procedures of expressive therapy! (Laughs.)
C7: So maybe it's okay after all!
T8: So maybe it's okay after all, that's right. Really.
C8: Yeah. I liked it when you said that it's not the way you usually work, but we could do it.
T9: That's right. It's, uh, I guess one aspect for me. If this had been… well, I can think of a time when in Germany before quite a critical audience, uh, a woman volunteered to be a client and then it turned out, well, she just, just wanted the satisfaction of being with me, so. And, uh, then I felt a little bit differently.
C9: Yeah.
T10: But, uh, although even out of that came some very significant things. And, um, anyway, this time I didn't feel… I, I felt, uh, what you were, what was happening would be O.K. with the group, so I felt relaxed, too. I, I did feel relaxed and sort of, uh, sort of an amused note in my feeling. I don't know quite… I don't want to be taken wrong, but, yeah, I could, I could be a little light about it, like admiring your masterpiece and things like that.
C10: Yeah, yeah.
T11: Uh, because, uh, I was sure that would be all right with you or something, too. Uh, uh. So that it was, uh, enjoyable and different and, uh, and I certainly felt very close to you, uh. And, I guess, it's interesting, it's the same kind of closeness whether a person is in pain or if… (inaudible) a week ago, when I got here or something, uh, you could have been in pain and, uh, and yet it's perfectly okay that you're feeling, feeling pleased with yourself and…
C11: Yeah, yeah.
T12: Mmm, and that I could relate as much to that and as easily to that as if you were in pain and that, uh, that pleased me about myself. Mmm. Shall we see what they think about it?
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.
Throughout this interview the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Carl Rogers’ Interview with SteveLiving Now Institute, 1986
Therapist: Give us both a chance here to get settled. (Pause.) You feel ready?
Client: Yes.
T: I don’t know what, uh, caused you to volunteer, why you… you’re here, but I’d be glad to hear whatever’s on your mind.
C1: Uhm, I was invited to volunteer and I happily accepted. I’m uh, I wanted to do this and it was an opportunity presented to me, so I’m here.
T1: Okay.
C2: Uhm...and I’m feeling quite frightened. And I have not picked out for myself any agenda right now. (T: Mhm, mhm.) Uhm, I can talk a little bit about what’s going on in my life, uh, which is my ongoing agenda, I suppose. Uhm...
T2: Well, the immediate agenda is that it’s kind of scary.
C3: Yes. (T: Mhm.) And I feel really very exposed and self- conscious. (T: Mhm.) Uhm… but I also feel that some part of me is delighted to be sitting here in front of you and, and talking to you. (T: Mhm.) Uhm… I’m a little distracted by some noises behind me, a rumbling. I don’t know what that is.
T3: Mhm. I think that’s outside, I don’t know. At any rate, let’s, let’s try and disregard that.
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C4: Okay. Uhm...I feel not quite as, uh, anxious now as I did a moment ago. (T: Mhm.) Uhm...the most obvious thing for me to talk about is the fact that I’m going through a divorce. Uh, the papers were filed in, uh, spring, and I’ll be...the divorce should be final in the fall. Uhm, there’s lots of material there, which is very close to the surface for me. (T: Mhm.) Uhm…(11 second pause.) I, I am in a small group, which I value very highly. It’s been very good for me. (T: Mhm.) And, uh, two days ago I did, uh, a lot of intense work in that small group. (T: Mhm.) Ventilated a lot of shame, (T: Mhm.) and, uh, talked about what’s going on with me and got some extra support from my group. (T: Mhm, mhm.) Right now, I’m feeling, uh, a little strange about repeating what I, what I said at that time. (T: Mhm, mhm.)
T4: You don’t quite know whether that’s the place to start or not, but at least that was helpful to you, I gather.
C5: Yes.
T5: You really got some things out.
C6: Yes, mhm. I’m feeling, uh, sad that the workshop is going to end in about twenty-four hours. (T: Mhm). I feel, with respect to many people here, uh, both a strong connection and, uh, some pain that I haven’t spent more time (T: Mhm.) with various individuals. (T: Mhm.) Ambivalence. (7 second pause.) And now I’m feeling, uh, uh... awkward because I feel as though it’s my task to produce something to talk about, and I’m not quite sure (T: Mhm.) what to do with that and I’m afraid of making a decision which will feel artificial. (T: Mhm.) And, uh, and so I’m feeling... well, part of me wants to be passive and wait for something to be suggested to me. (T: Mhm.) Uhm... (T: Mhm.)
T6: It is kind of a tough spot because you don’t want to produce a problem, if, if there is anything you want to talk about, you want it to be real.
C7: Mhm, (T: Mhm.) that’s right. (T: Mhm.) I was, uh… immediately, as you said that, I, I’ve thought of some things that I was feeling as I heard you talking. Uh, in the first hour, (T: Mhm.) hour and a half, and I was moved by several of the things that you said and the reports you gave. And it comes from, uh, a place in me, which just
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very passionately and deeply wants, uh, connection, harmony, (T: Mhm.) peace, (T: Mhm, mhm.) acceptance, (T: Mhm.) uh, among persons. (T: Mhm.) And now I don’t remember the specific (T: Mhm.) anecdotes or moments.
T7: Mhm. But what you know and what you recall is that in... you felt a deep hunger in you (C: Yeah.) for that kind of a, of a connected-ness.
C8: Mhm. (T: Mhm.) And that brings to mind my sense of the absence of such a connection (T: Hmm.) when I was small. (T: Mhm, mhm.) Uhm, I grew up in a home in which everyone was very nice, and officially very concerned about one another and officially not very concerned to take care of themselves. (T: Mhm.) Where it wasn’t really okay to, to, uh, say, “I want this,” or “I feel this.” (T: Mhm.) Um, where everyone spent a lot of energy watching out for the other person, or at least was supposed to do that. And also where there was not much, much physical contact, (T: Mhm.) and not much true sharing of feelings at the deepest level. (T: M-hm.) The warmth was there, but it was a kind of a distant warmth. A hunger for, uh, intimacy, which sometimes feels to me too much (T: Mhm, mhm.) for any person to, (T: Mhm, mhm.) to respond to.
T8: Mhm, that sort of slightly phoney concern in childhood has perhaps intensified your, your hunger to be really close. (C: Yes.) Mhm. And perhaps to...perhaps make it too much.
C9: Yes. And, uh, that was an issue in my marriage, uh, that I wanted intimacy and disclosure much...to a much greater degree than my wife did. And she felt that to be claustrophobic, or (T: Mhm, mhm.) too much for her (T: Mhm.) and she withheld (T: Mhm, mhm) a place of privacy in her which I felt was threatening to me. (T: Mhm.) And, eventually, she pulled away entirely. (T: M-hm.)
T9: You didn’t want her to have anything that was shut off from you.
C10: That’s right. I, I, I wanted her to share what was going on with her with me. I felt insecure. I feel insecure if I don’t experience (T: Mhm.) that openness with the other person (T: Mhm.) who I’m intimate with. And she seemed to...she felt a need to keep a place private, closed off from me and, and that increasingly became true
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as she got involved in another relationship. (T: Mhm.) And I felt desperate to, to break through that wall, and that created more distancing from her, (T: Mhm.) from her side and, uh, she felt she had nothing more to give me.
T10: The more you wanted a complete openness on her part, the more that made her (C: That’s...) pull away and increase the distance.
C11: That’s right. And a part of me feels very self-critical about that because I… one of the principles I hold is that people need a space for themselves, (T: Mhm.) and need not (T: Mhm.) to have to, uh, spill their heart out even to (T: Mhm.) the person they live with. (T: M-hm.) Um, and I recognize...(sighs.) uh, that my own past makes me hunger for that as a way of (T: Mhm.) easing my insecurity. (T: Mhm.) It makes it difficult.
T11: So, intellectually, why, it’s perfectly okay for her to have her privacy, but feeling-wise, you’re hungry for all of it.
C12: Yes, or, at least, enough for reassurance.
T12: Mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm.
(Pause of 15 seconds.)
C13: And part of what’s going on in me now is that (someone in audience coughs)...I feel vulnerable or self-critical about all my talking and my intellectual account, (T: Mhm.) and the fact that I, I, I’m not weeping or (T: Mhm.) expressing emotion. (T: Mhm.) in some more visceral way.
T13: So you’re concerned that maybe you’re not living up to expectations. (C: Yes.) And, as far as I can get it, it’s your own expectation that you’re afraid that you’re not living up to.
C14: Yes, uh, I project it on people here.
T14: Uh-huh, people won’t think well of you unless you really emote.
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C15: I’m often told that, that I’m very intellectual and, (T: Mhm) uh, uh I use intellect, and I think this is true, that I use intellect to distance from feelings. (T: Mhm, mhm.) (Pause of 7 seconds.) I’m a recovering alcoholic, and I’ve been sober for about twelve and a half years. (T: Mhm.) Alcohol was, for me, a way of releasing my control and experiencing my feelings more deeply and (T: Mhm, mhm.) a kind of catharsis.
T15: Mhm. Mhm. That was the key that unlocked your feelings. (C: Mhm.) Mhm.
(16 second pause.)
C16: I feel okay. I feel okay at this moment. (T: Mhm.)
(6 second pause.)
T16: You sound very...not so anxious, and you’re not so concerned about expectations, you’re just feeling, “All right, (C: Mhm.), I’m here.” (C: Mhm.) Mhm.
(Brief 3 second pause.)
C17: Well, I also feel like I should do something. (T: Mhm.) So I guess I...(laughs).
T17: The thing that’s not okay is to sit, huh?
(63 second pause.)
C18: Hmm. (softly.)
(7 second pause.)
T18: Can you explain that “hmm”?
C19: Um (6 second pause.)...That “hmm,” I was looking into your eyes, and what I experienced was (17 second pause.)... patience. I experienced you as clinician, or
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as the therapist, the intelligence in the way that you are being with me. And I experienced compassion. I had a sense of (T: Mhm.) entering into the place in which you (T: Mhm, mhm.) are (T: Mhm, mhm.) and it touched me. (T: Mhm, mhm, mhm.) So that was what my “hmm” was.
T19: All of a sudden you could see what it was like to be me.
C20: A little bit.
T20: Mhm. In this moment, at any rate.
C21: Mhm. (Pause of 14 seconds.) When I feel that connection, and I feel it again, now, as I look into your eye, I feel more calmer, more at peace, (T: Mhm.) trusting. (14 second pause.) And I just had a thought run through my head, “Am I performing?” (T: hm, mhm.) And I don’t know, and I’m worried about that a little bit.
T21: You sort of stand off and look at yourself a little bit and, “Am I performing? I don’t know.” (C: Mhm.) Mhm. Mhm. And part of you is really in you and part of you is really looking at you.
C22: Yes. (Pause.) I’m asking myself now about how I would be responding to this (T: Uh-huh.) moment if (T: Mhm.) no one else were here (T: Mhm.) except you and I, you and me. (T: Mhm. Uh-huh. Hmm.) I don’t know.
(6 second pause.)
T22: But at least the question arises, “If we were alone, would I be talking...would I be doing something different than I’m doing now?”
C23: Uh-huh, uh-huh. I can imagine, perhaps, I would be chattering on about something. (T: Mm, mhm) Not as (5 second pause) ...self-monitoring, probably. (6 second pause.) Again, a bit of fear about how I’m being perceived by the others here.
T23: Hmm. Mhm. Hmmm. It’s not only your own self-criticism, but you feel there may be critical perceptions from others. (C: Mhm, mhm.)
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(Pause of 8 seconds.)
C24: Mhm. (Pause 13 seconds.) Now I ... (8 second pause.) ... I do a lot of meditation. (T: Mhm.) To... and the meditation I do is... I experience as opening me up to what’s going on inside, (T: Mhm.) and also allowing me to live with my anxiety more. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And I (T: Mhm.) am doing some of that now. (T: Mhm.) And I’m… to...
T24: You’re kind of asking yourself, “Can I be a friend to my anxiety, to my concern, to my fear?”
C25: Mhm. (T: Mhm.) (Pause.) And that allows me to be open. I feel open, I feel present, (T: Mhm.) and I feel like I, I have no agenda (T: Mhm.) at this moment, (T: Mhm, Mhm.) and then I think I’ve got to have an agenda.
T25: Mhm. But the honest part of you is saying, “I really don’t have an agenda. I don’t have anything I need to talk about.”
C26: At this moment I don’t.
T26: At this moment, mhm.
C27: And now I suddenly flash on half an hour from now, (T: Mhm.) I’ll be kicking myself. “I could have talked about...Why didn’t I say something about that at least?”
T27: Mhm. Mhm. But even in advance you’re being critical of yourself. (Audience laughs.)
C28: Yeah. (laughs.) (T: Mhm.) (6 second pause.) I just flashed on something else. Uh… I, I teach at a college a few hours from here. And there is on the faculty of that college a man who has... quite a powerful man who’s published a great deal, and who has singled me out for very hostile, uh, criticism (T: Mhm.) on several occasions. And circulated letters to faculty about me (T: Hm.) and, uh, published
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about me as a, as a fool and a, (T: Hmm.) uhm, as representative of all that’s bad in American education. And (T: Mm.) and the irony is that this man bears a...some physical resemblance to you.
T28: I see. (T and audience laugh.) Hmm.
C29: And I have a strange kind of double (T: Mhm, mhm.) thing going on with his face and yours (T: Mm.) because the... everything else about the two of you (T: Mhm.) is, is poles apart.
T29: Mhm. But still, in some respects, I symbolize to you a hostile, critical person.
C30: (Laughing softly.) It sounds wild to say that.
T30: Mhm. It sounds real.
C31: I want to say, I don’t know how… I sat next to you as you were talking (T: Mm.) and I realized that I was seeing that (T: Mhm.) at that time, (T: Mhm.) and ...(noises in background.)... I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know how much my response to you or my response to being with you is, is controlled by that. (T: Mhm, mhm.) association. (T: Mhm, mhm.) I don’t know how much of that’s gong on. (T: Mhm, mhm.) I’m just aware that that’s there, that connection.
T31: Mhm. You’re not sure how important it is, but you know that (C: Uh-huh.) he and I are in some way mixed up in this situation.
C32: There’s a physical similarity. (T: Mhm, mhm.) (Pauses.) And now I’m imagining myself going back to my college and speaking to him as if I were speaking to you. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And wondering what that would be like.
T32: Mhm. Mhm. What would it be like to just be your own self with him?
(15 seconds pause.)
C33: It feels like it would be...to be open to the devil.
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T33: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You might be making yourself vulnerable to some very evil things.
C34: Mhm… Mhm. (13 second pause.) I have no need to interact with him. He’s in a different department and, (T: Mhm.) uh, he has alienated very many others as well, so I have lots of companions (T: Mhm.) for the hostility. And I’m thinking I, I see no usefulness in coming to him in this way and yet I don’t know.
T34: Certainly not a necessity, and yet, uh, you’re not quite sure.
C35: Uh-huh. I certainly feel unresolved about him. (T: Mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm.) I’ve chosen not to engage him. And one of my friends said, “Don’t get into a pissing contest with a skunk.” (T: Mhm.) (Audience laughter. And he told me... he challenged me to a debate. I, I chose not to debate him, I invited him to my class to speak to my students. He said, “It’s like trying to play ping-pong with a marshmallow.” (T: Hmm.) The ball never bounces. I guess a part of me is afraid that I’m a marshmallow.
T35: Ah, mhm, mhm. “Am I just the wimp he claims I am?” Huh?
C36: Just the...
T36: The wimp or the marshmallow, (C: The wimp.) the softie.
C37: Uh-huh. (T: Mhm.) Someone called me “pussy-whipped,” (T: Mmm.) a word I don’t like at all.
(Pause 6 seconds.)
T37: Mmm. (5 second pause.) That has some really bad connotations for you.
C38: It’s offensive. I feel it’s offensive to women, and offensive to me, obviously. And a part of me wonders whether there’s some truth in the accusation. (T: Mhm.) My wife is a very strong person, (T: Mhm.) uh, very capable. That’s one of the
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reasons why I married her. She’s... she may become a college president someday, she’s capable of that. And I felt with her that I haven’t kept up with her pace. As my son says, “She’s a go-getter.” And I’m a more stay-at-home person.
T38: Mhm, mhm. That makes you question yourself a little bit, and perhaps in particular you’re wondering, “Am I to any degree pussy-whipped?”
C39: Uh-huh. I ask myself that. And I think it’s true that I’m frightened of, of women who have sharp tongues. (T: Mhm.) I’ve, I have two older sisters and one of them, particularly, I experienced a lot of control and stifling and, uh, putting down and. Uh, I never felt heard by her. And, uh, uh, I found the way to be with her was to placate her. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And I carry that (T: Mhm.) with me still. Not only with women...with, with women who are sharp, or, or, uh, angry, but with men also.
T39: So when you meet anger, whether in men or women, you tend to placate it if possible.
C40: Withdraw, placate, (T: Mhm.) sometimes respond with anger. (Pauses 13 seconds) Also a dimension of it for me is fear of loss of sexual closeness. (T: Mhm, mhm.) With my wife, my sense of validation or intimacy or sense of her love for me was connected very much with whether she was sexually present or available. (T: Mhm.) And if she didn’t want to make love, then I felt often that that reflected upon her feelings for me as a person. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And that in turn meant she felt pressure from me to be sexual when she didn’t feel sexual. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And that was an issue in our coming apart.
T40: Mhm, mhm, mhm. But you tended to feel quite rejected, quite...quite a disturbing thing if the sexual aspect was not, uh, (C: Mhm.) mutual. (C: Mhm.) Mhm.
C41: And I often felt that if she was hostile for some other reason that that would be expressed indirectly and withholding (T: Uh-huh.) of her affection, or, (T: Mhm, mhm.) or sexuality.
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T41: Mhm, mhm. So that if she didn’t want to make love, it might be that she was angry for you at something else entirely.
C42: Sometimes I felt it was my own stuff, and sometimes I felt it was hers, as well, or both. (T: Mhm, mhm, mhm.) (Pause 7 seconds.) I’m still processing “pussy-whipped” (T: Mhm, mhm.) in the back of my mind. (T: M-hm.)
(Pause 8 seconds.)
T42: That term really gets to you in some ways, and it’s (C: Mhm.) necessary to mull it over.
C43: I feel my face contorting a bit into a something, a feeling of contempt or... (T: Mhm.) contempt’s not the right word. Disgust, or, um, (T: Mmm.) censored-ness.
T43: Mhm, mhm. You feel really offended by that term, or by that accusation, perhaps.
C44: I feel offended by that accusation and I feel offended by a recognition of how I have submerged myself and my strength to placate (T: Mhm.) the other, (T: Mhm.) the woman, (T: Mhm.) in my life.
T44: Mhm. It brings out something that’s difficult to look at. You feel, “Yes I have placated women when they’re angry or sharp or something.”
C45: Yes. And I’m getting in touch now with my own strength and my own masculinity, (T: Uh-huh.) and my power as a... not just as a person, but as a man. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And I’m scared of that because my ideology, my politics, wants to affirm “person-hood” as the primary value for me, (T: Mhm.) or for others, for women. (T: Mhm.) And...
T45: So it isn’t quite all right to feel, “I’m male. I’m masculine. I’m powerful.”
C46: That’s right. Mhm. (T: Mmm.) And, and that feels like it comes both out of, um, my fear of being hurt by women, but also out of my passion for fairness and for equality (T: Mhm, mhm.) and ...
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T46: Mhm. And that passion for equality makes it not quite all right to feel (C: Mhm.) strong (C: Mhm.) and masculine. (C: Mhm.) Mhm, mhm. I’ve got to confess something, I completely forgot to ask anyone to keep time. I have no idea whether we’ve gone overtime, or what. Can somebody tell me?
C47: Eleven twenty-five.
T47: Let’s take two or three more minutes, if you want?
C48: Okay. (Pause 11 seconds.) I want to say something about feminism and I, uh, and I’m, uh, afraid to do so because (T: Mhm.) that’s a whole bag and, uh, we don’t have much time. (T: Mhm.) I want to just say that I want to count myself as a feminist. I realize I’m saying that not only to you but to the people listening to me
T48: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. (Pause.) It seems as though there wasn’t hardly time enough to say that.
C49: Mhm. I feel tempted to talk politics, ideology, values, (T: Uh-huh.) and I, I’m backing off from that. (T: Uh-huh.) I don’t think I want to do that at this moment. (T: Mhm, mhm, mhm.) I realize that’s coming from a fear of being misunderstood. (T: Mhm. Okay.) A fear of (T: Mhm.) being perceived as saying something I’m not. (T: Mhm.) And I’m just going to live with that.
T49: That’s sort of a preventive thing to say.
C50: And I just want to let go of that (T: Mhm.) and not get hooked into that. (T: Mhm.) But what I am affirming right now and connecting with is my wish to be... experience myself more fully as a man without having to apologize for it.
T50: Okay. Mhm. Mhm. I hear you saying, “I want it known that I’m a feminist, but I also want to be free to feel myself as a strong man.” (C: Yes. Mhm.) “I believe in equality, but I also believe in my own strength.”
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C51: Yes, and, and the way that you put that, the way your hand moved, uh, I was uncomfortable with… for myself, (T: Okay.) because it felt like it was a “Yes, but...” for me. (T: Mhm.) And I feel more passionate about equality than that.
T51: Okay. Okay. Okay. Mhm. So, maybe, it’s, “I believe in equality and I am strong myself.” (C: Mhm.) “I’m strong and masculine and male.”
C52: The feeling I’m feeling is of my affirmation of humanity (Voice breaking with emotion.). (T: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.) (Cries in chopped outbursts that sound almost like laughter.)
T52: (After C stops crying.) Uh-huh. So what you’re saying is “I’m a strong human being and I want to affirm that in myself and others.”
C53: I’m a strong man and I affirm person-hood or humanity or equality. (Crying.) It hurts. Other people’s pain hurts me. (T: Mhm, mhm.) (Cries in outburst.) (T: Mhm.)
(Pauses 9 seconds.)
T53: You quickly restrain those outbursts, which seem both pain and also almost like laughter.
C54: Someone said that in my group. “You’re crying and it sounds like laughter.” (T: Uh-huh.) I don’t know what that means. (T: Uh-huh.) (Pauses 12 seconds.) I feel trembling.
T54: There’s something very emotional about this moment. (Pauses 16 seconds.) (C cries in outbursts.) You cut it off very quickly. (C: Hmmm?) You cut it off very quickly.
C55: The three minutes is up... (More outbursts of crying.)
T55: Seems those sounds come bursting out from a very deep place.
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C56: (Breathing deeply and softly crying.) The images that are coming to mind, which... out of which the crying is coming are images from what you said about South Africa and about the (sighs.) anguish of separateness and hurt and pain.(T: Mhm)
(Pause 7 seconds.)
T56: And that touched something in you. (C: Mhm.) Mmm.
(Pause 14 seconds.)
C57: It’s, it’s my own separateness, my own anguish, (T: Mhm.) my own pain, (T: Mhm.) I suppose, (T: Mhm.) from when I was a child (T: Mhm.) and now (T: Mhm.) and… I don’t know.
T57: Mhm. It comes bursting out almost unbidden. Mhm. (Pauses 9 seconds.) This seems like a very strange time to stop, but is that okay with you?
C58: Mhm. (Nods.)
T58: Okay.
End of Session
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Comments
T 1: After we’ve sat for a moment maybe you’ll feel willing to tell the group how this seemed to you, and then I’ll say how this seemed to me, and then if you want to we can let them in on the discussion. (Pause.)
C 1: I’m very glad to have done it. It feels very good and important to me. And I feel your acceptance, your openness, your trust in me. I trust the people who sit here and listen. I trust you with what I have done. I’m very conscious of, of there being more for me to do with this whole stuff and (T: Mhm.) I’m not finished. (T: Mhm.) (Pauses 17 seconds.) I suppose there’s more I might say, but I can’t… I don’t know what it might be right now.
T 2: Okay. Then I’ll talk a little bit and if there’s anything there you want to add you can. Um… I guess, for a person with no agenda you seemed (chuckles) to go quite a ways. I really, um, appreciate it very much, the fact that you, uh, were not willing to concoct a problem. That you waited long enough until you felt you had some things to say, some experiences that you wanted to reveal and that felt very good to me. I know during, uh, one of the silences, I felt it seemed like pure relationship. And at that point, not much of anything had come out in the way of the content, but I felt very much a relationship between us. And, uh, it felt okay. It felt okay. Whereas, I would have been quite contented had, uh, nothing of significance come up. But then, gradually, you did use the time to get into things that really meant something to you. And I liked the way that you listened to yourself and, and it was only when you felt something that, uh, you were willing to say it. Uh… I felt, uh, very much at ease with you, with silence, with the situation that perhaps there would be no agenda, uh, I felt very comfortable with that. I wonder if that’s... Shall we let them ask questions?
Man: I had a question. I don’t know how strongly or how powerful you are. And I just want to know who... the eternal noise... you did a lot of stuff, did it have any impact, or little impact?
C 3: I let go of that after, very quickly, after I said what I did. And it wasn’t bothersome, a bother for me.
T 3: You were somewhat aware of the group.
C 4: I was very aware of the group.
T 4: Yeah.
C 5: But, oh, I thought you were speaking of (Man A: The continuing noise). No, not particularly, just my own anxiety (T: Mhm.) about how I was being seen. But I wasn’t distracted by it.
T 5: Right, no. I didn’t feel that either. It was different from... sometimes in an interview it gets to the point where just the two of us are in the room. I felt the people were always there as far as you were concerned. They weren’t as far as I was concerned. That was one difference between us. (C: Mhm.)
T 6: Mhmm. (Pauses.) Any other?
Man: Carl, as you mentioned earlier, you said, you know, nothing would have got done right at that presence, you know, if you hadn’t have gone into that emotional (T: Mhm.) like it was an engagement that you both had.
T 7: Yeah. Yes, I know. We were somehow in tune whether anything of great import… came out or not. That’s true. Mhm.
Man: (question is asked that is cut off in the beginning.) I think at that moment.
T 8: I don’t feel I was, uh, different in what I was doing or feeling. No, I felt that, uh, I felt at that moment he sort of latched on… (laughs) something like that, uh. (C: Mhm.) Um... and the thought did cross my mind because I’ve been questioned quite a lot on this recently, uh, that, uh, yes, I suppose there is something. (break in the recording.) I hate the word...I hate to use the word, but there was something slightly hypnotic about feeling that you’ve given your full attention to somebody else. And I feel I really do give full attention and when people really sense that, it, it, uh, does make a difference somehow. (C: Mhm, hmmm) Mm.
Man: You have that question about, uh, when do you (inaudible) Carl T (inaudible) (T: Hmm.) (inaudible) between love and hate. You had so good feeling (T: Mhm.) between each other and suddenly you felt something (inaudible). (T: Mhm.) If you could say something. (inaudible) But I know used to feel this and I think it has to do with the work. (inaudible).
T 9: I don’t know, um. I think my only comment on that was that, uh, it was sort of refreshing in a way because more often people say “Well, you look like my grandfather or something.” (T and audience laugh.) And to find that I look like some son of a bitch, uh. (Audience laughter.) But, um, I felt, uh, good about the awareness that led to that, uh...Okay, you can look at me and see me as a hostile person. You can look at me and see me as a, as a trustworthy person. And you could be aware of both, uh, aspects and meanings. And, and I felt that, uh, conceivably that might lead to, uh, you know quite (indecipherable)... I felt that conceivably that might lead to somewhat different dimensions between you and that man. I don’t know. And you evidently thought of that also.
Woman: Carl, is that, you said you said and I felt it is not a female or male issue. But rather it is human being who is very sensitive and very capable and very confident so, uh, others and someone said that a kind of, um, (inaudible) from his own life (C: Huh. Hmm. Hmm.) And, uh, (inaudible) about it.
T 10: Yes, I felt that when he was really stretching his own sense of power, yeah, he’s, he’s the man. But it could be a woman, uh, feeling her own sense of power too. It would be very similar to that. I gather that’s sort of what you were saying too.
Woman: Exactly, I feel same and I just feel that I do it too. Too much of a concern for other people (inaudible).
C 7: Mhm. Yes, I haven't found the balance or the dialectic between those yet. And I have a determination to honor the equality and the openness and the consideration. I have put the damper on my own (T: Mhm.) strength and my own separateness or something. I am not...I am not...I’m not (indecipherable).
T 11: Yeah, I felt that and thought you were becoming aware of that feeling. Uh, and that’s not a modern problem, but one that seems unfortunate. But, uh, to stress equality sometimes does mean putting one’s self down and (C: Mhm.) I don’t feel, (C: Hmm.)uh… the phrase that comes to mind is “some people are more equal than others”. (laughs.)
Man: Carl? ( T: Mhm.) Um… I think that… (inaudible) question. If the person sees that he is talking about that professor or about his wife or somebody else has, has started to, to talk in a really, um, hostile and unfair way about them and even to be planning some terrible thing about them. What... could... could you speculate about how you’re… how you think of that or what you would have done with that if, if, if he had turned in a, in a, in a very, uh, not just negative, but almost a deliberately harmful direction about those people?
T 12: I’m sure I would have been a companion to him a long, long way down that road. If he got to the point of threatening murder, I would not want to end an interview on that note, but uh, uh, I’d feel a great deal of trust in the individual’s sense of, uh, um, in the individual’s sense, I guess. At any rate, I would have, I would have, uh, yes, sir, I would have been a companion to him in those hostile feelings, those desires to attack, those desires to destroy, or whatever.
Man: No, I was, I was, I was… you fairly answered what I asked.
T 14: Okay.
Man: I've talked with you many times (inaudible) like the word “pussy-whipped”
T 15: Mhm, mhm. (Pauses.) I wasn’t absolutely sure that I heard it correctly the first time. So I waited a little bit until I responded to it to make sure what word he was using.
Woman: (inaudible) also, the responsibility (C: Mhm.) So I feel like I don’t accept it. (C: Mhm.) It’s not… it’s rather that human beings are not (inaudible). (C: Mhm.)
(7 second pause.)
Woman: I was really touched by the depth of your problems and, also, was aware that you were cutting it off so quickly. (C: Mhm, mhm.) So (inaudible) because for so long denied yourself that. (C: Mhm.) So when it does come up, (C: Mhm.) you know, that quick before, before you make anybody angry or something. (C: Hmm. Mhm.)
Woman: Steve, I really like your family in that you had considered some people (inaudible) according to what they did too. You take (inaudible) a lot of people’s feelings and wanting to turn their equal-ness, etc (inaudible) instead of just mirroring back what they gave you, which is senseless. The fact is that (inaudible) what, what you’re doing and what they did, putting themselves down in other different ways (inaudible). What you need to do is affirm yourself, and that you’re
still doing that. (C: Hmm.) I don’t know if that’s right, but it’s what it felt like to me.
C 8: It feels like there’s truth in what you say, in like, that, I need to affirm myself more fully, as a person, as a man.
Woman: Yes. (C: Mhm.)
Woman: A human being or a person.
C 9: Human being. (Woman: Human being.) As a man, too, I need to do that. (T: Mhm. Mhm.)
Woman: Also, to make sure that what’s… using the man in you, (inaudible) man because you are sensitive, because you are kind. And so those are things that make you feel that you are less of a man.
C 10: Hmm. Um… perhaps I get confused about that. Perhaps I do. Um… it does feel true to me that, it doesn’t say enough about me to say, “I am a person.” I value that, I, I, I love that and I respect the person-hood of myself, and others and I’m a man. (T: Mhm.) And, I want to be able to say that and say it with strength and pride. (T: Mhm.) And I would like women to be able to say it themselves. “I am a woman and I value that and I trust that (Woman: Mhm.) and that’s a beautiful thing to be.”
T 16: Mhm.
Woman: What does it mean to be a man...(T: Hmm?) What does it feel… What does it mean to be a man?
C 11: Well, frankly, I don’t think I understand that very well. I don’t think I understand how to feel my strengths.
T 17: I don’t think we want to quiz him. But...let, let me try to answer that. Uh, I really responded very much to that because I feel, uh, for some reason, I feel increasingly proud in recent years of I’m a very sensitive person. And I’m a very sensitive man.
I’m also a very strong person. I’m a strong man. And there’s a whole range of things that I feel in between. That, uh... uh... and then, and I expect women do too. But, anyway, for myself, uh, I, I can accept myself when I feel strong and dominating and weak and submissive and sensitive and hard. Uh, I realize I’m a... it’s a hell of a large range of latitude of feelings that I experience and I don’t apologize for any of them. I don’t want to be, uh... I don’t want to be just one of those things always. I don’t want to always be weak. But it is real pleasant to be weak sometimes. (C: Mhm.) I don’t want to always be hard but sometimes there are situations in which I feel I am hard and tough. And, uh, I like the fact that I'm sensitive, that I’m... but, sometimes I’m ...I may be ordinary or something like that. (C: Mhm.) Mhm. And I really responded very much, personally, to what you were saying. I don’t know whether that maybe relates to your question too.
Man: That relates to me very much too. What relates to me very much too is that dilemma of finding an identity. (C: Mhm.) (inaudible) being a, being a man today is a way of being, it seems to me. Being sensitive, it’s a choice much more than a, I mean, it’s a culture, a choice. (C: Mhm.) But defining a new identity, which is a combination of, of what you are, what you grew up to be and the choice you made to not be what you were supposed to be. That’s speaking for myself. (T: Mhm.) That’s a tough one. (T: Mhm. Mhm.) And, uh, equality doesn’t mean, doesn’t mean, uh, less emotions. And I heard you speaking about passion. And, uh, the, the danger of, of, of not knowing my identity is that suddenly I became, I become, (inaudible). (C: Mhm.) (T: Mhm.) And I was thinking about that while I was looking at you and your gray shirt and gray pants. (C: Mhm) And I wanted to say, “Put on a red shirt.” (Audience laughs.)
T 18: Mhm. I think that’s something he’s in the process of doing. (Laughs and audience laughs.) Hmm.
Woman: Something was confusing me and I was wondering if at some level we would be talking about power. And when I think of equality, somehow I think about power, maybe on different levels than male/female. And then I thought about “empower” on that level, the masculine power and something then bothered me. So then I asked, “Is this the way women sometimes use their power?” And I didn’t know what that was all about. But, to me, it was kind of two levels, the
male/female thing and then maybe personal power. Carl, I think you clarified On Becoming a Person, you know. And (T: Mhm.) the power issue is an issue, (T: Mhm.) but there’s also a personal issue.
Woman: I guess, I feel uncomfortable because I feel like we could be dancing around kind of unable to say, “I’m on top of men” instead of “I’m on top of the person.” And I hear you saying something about, “I’m a man.” And I’m, I wanna say I can accept that from you.
Woman: Yes. Let me be a man
Women’s voices: Yeah. Absolutely. (Laughter.)
Man: There’s another possibility. (T: Mhm, mhm.) And there’s a wonderful book written by… about Robert Irwin, who is a minister. And he simply calls being as creating the name of the thing that one is being. (Laughter) (T: Called what?) That being is forgetting to name the thing one is being. And I think we’re in search of our identity but the next step after that is loss of identity. (T: Mhm.) So maybe you have to get to it before you can give it away. But I have to say, if anyone here knows what a man is, I hope they never tell me. (Some laughter.)
Woman: You see this is off the wall, but, but… and it may not have anything to do with your experience. But, but my experience, but when you were crying… and the last thing, the experience, I had was, “Oh joy! Oh joy! I’m gonna cry! (C: Yes.) I can feel myself.” And so it didn’t seem incongruent at all.
Man: Mhm. That’s right on.
T 19: Mhm, mhm, mhm. Okay. That, that’s helpful to me because I felt there was joy there and I couldn’t quite figure what the joy was about. Yeah. That’s, uh… Mhm.
Woman: What I’m noticing is with this process is that a group is responding to something very intimate with you, (C: Mhm.) and how different the feel is (C: Hmm.) than when you and Carl were talking. (C: Hmm.) Because when you two were in dialogue, I was in conflict every moment. And then in your response, I noticed
sometimes I’d get uncomfortable because I don’t really know that you gave permission, that you feel permission (C: Mhm, mhm.) for each of your responses. So I’m just really struck with the difference. (T: Mhm.)
C 12: Are you asking me a question about that or are you just…? (Man: Yeah.)
Woman: No, (T: No.) I’m just noticing (T: Mhm.) how differently I feel, (C: Mhm.) and how comfortable, how all okay it felt (C: Mhm.) between you and Carl.
T 20: That’s really very interesting to me. Uh… I did a demonstration interview in, in, uh… where are we again? Hungary. (Audience and T laugh.) And someone said afterwards, because questions began to be directed to the, to the client, and they said they thought questions should be limited to the therapist, not to the, uh, client. I don’t quite agree with that. But I, too, felt once or twice a little discomfort and mis... if it had gone any further I would have said, “You don’t have to answer any question you don’t want to.” Uh… that by becoming a client here, you didn’t necessarily open yourself up to all the, uh, inquiries that might be made.
C 13: I’d like to speak to that. I feel that I welcome every question that I’ve received and, uh, I have no problem with anything that you want to say to me or ask of me. So…
T 21: Not up to this point. Don’t make it a (inaudible). (Audience laughs.)
Man: In the now.
Woman: I feel like a real “ah-ha” has been (laughs) facilitated for me, thanks to some things that you were risking sharing. (C: Mhm) And it, it fit in with what W_______ said and with what Dr. T said and with what P_____ just said. I was trying to figure out, “What is a woman?” And I don’t have to know. (Audience: Mhm’s and laughs.) And that was my “ah-ha” because part of me is Helen. I mean, I get out there with my causes and I do things, whether it’s to protect my child or my husband or me or to do something for (inaudible) and the world I’m in or for other groups that I’m involved with. And then, part of me, it’s like, “Now wait a minute. How do I take off that jacket and then put on the frilly nightie and become this other person that I think lurks in there. And then the one who goes in the
kitchen and cooks.” And it’s like some days it’s like a conflict and I’m trying to get a definition. Or what is the role model that I’m supposed to follow? It’s like there’s rules, and I know how to follow the rules and I’ll play the game, right. And the “ah-hh” was (laughs) there doesn’t seem to be rules or a role model and that I’m okay. (T: Mhm.) And that I can be a woman and there is a lot of facets of me. And at some level (T: Mhm.) I’ve known that. But the “ah-ha” (T: Mhm.) today and then listening to you, you know, what each of you (T: Mhm.) was sharing (inaudible). And, you know, my heart… (laughs a little) (T: Very good. (laughs)) So exciting. Thank you and that it’s okay. (T: That’s sort of...) And that, that you as a man or any other man here feels a little the same way. It’s kind of like, “Oh, it’s not just me by myself”(T: Mhm.) or it’s not just women (T: Mhm.) but it’s about all their kind of struggle in the world.
T 22: Just to comment, sort of, in a, in a theoretical way on that. It seems to me that life was a lot simpler when there were definite roles. You knew what you were supposed to do, um, you knew what you were supposed to be and any deviation from that was punished by the society. Uh, that makes life quite simple. But it doesn’t make it very rich. And we’re trying to treat it as a concept that says, as you were saying, “You can be all of these things and that is you.” It isn’t just some narrow band here that a submissive good cook, uh, bears children or something, and that’s it. You can be the whole gamut of feelings and still all you and the same way with men. And I feel that’s a… I feel that’s a new social experiment. I don’t think, uh… well, I don’t think it’s ever been possible before, partly, because, uh, women have never had control over their own reproduction before, and their reproductive power. And that has made an enormous freedom to explore what it is to be a whole woman. It has also given men the opportunity to explore what it is to be a whole man, not just a narrow band of a breadwinner and the, the dominant person or etc., etc. So it’s, uh… I just feel we’re, we’re embarked on a social pathway that really has never been trod before except by individuals. Individually, yes, you can point to people through the centuries. But as a general possibility, no, I think it’s a new, a new thing.
Woman: When you said that, Carl, what came up to me was a clarification about something that I’ve struggled with, um, owning it all and saying, “And that’s me and that’s me, woman.” Because sometimes I get caught up in the male/female and
saying, “Oh, God, am I acting masculine,” (T: Mhm.) when I’m in my more active form. And I heard you do that, C, when you said “This is me and this is man.” (T: Mhm.) And I think, you know… I thank you for sharing that. It helps me to clarify that I don’t have to put myself in those identity labels, (T: Mhm.) that whatever it is.
Woman: I, I want to follow-up by saying that your voice, your shoulders, your whole demeanor changed when you said that one phrase. It touched me so completely (T: Hmm.) that I’m still sitting here hyperventilating about the system or the framework in which we grew up and that (inaudible) and that we continue to live, that squelches the red curtain. (T: Mhm.) I have also relief about that and I have a real connection about how scary it is to say to that system “Get off my back. (T: Mhm.) This is who I am.” (T: Mhm.) And I’m very serious and, and I almost need to hold your hand while I’m telling you this because you talked so much about “I don’t want to perform. I don’t want to make up something. I don’t want to fall apart here.” And yet the system that made you feel like you had to compete, it makes you sound really nice, really intellectual. So it was responsive of, um, real spirit about where it hurts (voice breaks) and I really honor that truth. (C: Mhm.) (T: Okay.) (T chuckles.)
Woman: I would like to just connect with, um, the concept of being, uh, strong, and manly and sensitive and womanly because I, personally, feel sometimes that I’m really strong. And sometimes I ask myself, “Oh, well, is this, uh, is this a very manly kind of attitude?” (C: Mmm.) And I know that as a woman, uh, it’s okay to be strong and I can be woman. So when you prefer to be sometimes considerate, sensitive, or if you call it sensitive, I don’t know. Um, at the same time, call it manly. (C: Mhm.) I mean, I don’t really connect this together. (C: Mhm, mhm, mhm.) So it’s kind of a neat interpretation of these two concepts for me.
Woman: Sometimes I get mad at Carl Jung because of animus and anima. And, uh, I think what we’re feeling is that you can be woman and be strong and be passive or loving or whatever and you can be man and strong and loving. And, um, because you can go out there and go and earn a living at all I’d say, “Well, I’m using my left brain, I’m getting the animus going and I’ve gotta work on that deal.” And but then when that becomes strong and I think, “Well, then I’m not being female” and,
uh, and I am. (Laughs.) I think it’s worth saying. (T: Mhm.) And I, I, uh, I have a feeling I just dropped a lot of labels and put them in the garbage can and I like the woman (inaudible). (T: Mhm.) Thank you for that.
T 23: Well, I know I’ve sometimes thought that, um, my whole approach to therapy and, and, to group stuff is rather soft and therefore a rather feminine approach. And that used to trouble me just a little. Um… but I realized that’s just as much a part of me and part of being a man. I don’t have any doubt about whether I’m a man or not. Uh… so, okay. I’m, uh, pleased with the fact that some of me acts in ways that are usually characterized as feminine and other parts of me act in ways that are characterized as masculine, but it’s all me. And it’s, uh… it felt good. It brings more possibilities to life to feel in oneself and to feel acceptant in oneself that whole range of feelings from complete submissiveness to complete dominance, and so forth.
Man: I feel that the answer when we talk about men and feelings, about sensitivity, I feel at the moment is that sensitivity has to do more with the person, not the male/female. (T: Mhm, mhm.) Okay, (T: Mhm.) because a man can be very sensitive (T: Mhm, mhm.) as the woman. Sensitive in different ways, I don’t know. Perhaps a little different, but not completely. That this too is connected with the person. (T: Mhm.)
Man: I had a sense somewhere when he said, “I am man”, if he said “I am human”, we wouldn’t be talking about this. (Audience murmurs yes.)
C 14: I’m not getting what you’re saying.
Man: If you said, “ I am human” (C: Hmm.) instead of “I am man”, we wouldn’t be talking about any of this stuff now.
C 15: Mhm. Right.
Man: You’re talking about in unity.
C 16: And I guess that’s what you prefer. Do you like that better?
Man: No, I just think that’s what we are, human beings. (C: Hmm.)
Man: See so that’s so clear, if you’re human then you aren’t worried about being pussy-whipped. See I got into the same thing you did including (inaudible). The reason I tapped into it is because I felt guilty. See, I got exactly where you were, just exactly. Cause my choice was that the hurt of the imperfect world (pauses) was greater, far greater than the shame of being an aggressor. Do what you want. You know call it “overwhelming my wife”, or “insisting” (C: Hmm.) or “racist.” I don’t care what you call it. But you write it down a thousand times as, as long as you are trying to be a man and you come from the area that you think houses poles and, uh, you know, civilization and community having something to do with your getting sexual (inaudible). As long as you have those feelings, then you have to make that choice. (C: Hmm.) Are you going to give it up? Or are you going to insist on it? And, I guess, it used to hurt me more than it did. But at this point it is a mathematical thing. The hurt is far greater, the hurt of being pussy-whipped in the eyes of the world was far greater than being chained for those nine days.
Woman: But maybe that’s the leap we’re all trying to make together.
Man: And all done.
Woman: Make… keep it from being either or, either being the aggressor or the pussy-whipped, either being better (inaudible). It’s sort of like, it can get… it’s about breaking mindsets. What happens there is people that tend to break their mind set about who you were and hear about (inaudible) and how you… and they’ll help break our mind set. J____ yesterday broke our mindset. Everybody, it, it’s when we get in these mind sets that we get back into self-control, and rhythm control and this control and role control. What’s exciting, was positive, is when you break those things and…
C17: I just got… I just flashed on something more about what I was need to be saying when I say, “I’m a man”. And that is, I, I want to affirm my body. (T: Mhm.) (Woman: Mmm.) And I, I have the body of a man and that is me. (T: Mhm.) And I want to identify with that with a… I want to own that or… this is language, the
jargon, but that’s important to me and, uh, if I stay only with “I am a person” or (Woman: Hmm.) “I am human,” somehow that gets lost for me. I can’t feel that and it’s real important for me to
Woman: Both things.
T 24: To feel pride in your body, too. (C: Mhm.) Yeah, I feel that, too.
Man: (Inaudible) I think it’s important to know who we are, what we are doing before we can, uh, forget about who we are (C: Hmm.) and about what we are and (T: Mhm.) before we do something else. We need to have information and then we’ll do like H_____ said yesterday to do, to be, to do a real job. If we do not have this information we do not… we, we will not feel centered in our being and with autonomy. (Inaudible.) We need to be to become… I need to be (inaudible) if I can (inaudible). (Some audience laughter.)
Man: There’s, there’s a potential trap that I found myself getting into, that I try to avoid like the plague and, and it’s what I call “lukewarm”. I wanna be all of this stuff. I wanna be water one moment and hard as a rock the next. I don’t wanna be mush all the time. And I (audience laughter) want (inaudible) out of all of those things because there’s an appropriateness of all of those things. (T: Mhm.) And I really, um, to me, death is, is getting hung up in that narrow band in the middle, um… nothing against gray. (Audience and T laugh.) But you get gray (more laughter)...
Woman: But, but you have to be a man because of your, is your existence. That’s right, isn’t it? If I’m rough with you and if I put you down and inhibited you so you didn’t really identify as a man, I guess. But I mean it’s easy to say you’ve gotta find out what a man is to be a man. And then move on. (Woman: Yes.)
C 18: My mind is running through my wardrobe. (Audience laughs loudly and claps.) I’ve got a red shirt. (More laughter.)
Woman: Carl, I know we’re running over. (T: Yep.) You’ve… it’s like 9, 10, 11 (inaudible).
T 25: (Laughs) That’s right. But it’s been, uh, very good to be here and I think, uh, we’re all of us throughout wearing a red shirt. (T laughs and audience laughs and claps.)
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.
Throughout this interview the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Rogers' First Interview with Lydia [code name] - July 29, 1986 The La Jolla Program
T: Lydia, let's, I'd sort of like to get centered for a minute and sort of forget the group and think about what's going to happen and so on and so on. So let's take just a minute to be quiet. Would that be okay with you?
C: Yeah. (40 seconds)
T: Okay. I don't know you at all but uh, you just said when you sat down that you had an issue you wanted to talk about? I'd be glad to hear about it.
C1: Okay. Umm, I'm a smoker and I've smoked for a long time and I've done a lot of different techniques and I've had a lot of people work with me on that issue. And I'm pretty clear on when I feel the need to do it very strongly (T: Mhm, hmm) and I don't know what that's about. Um, and if possible, I would like to get through that barrier. It's limiting for me.
T1: Hmm. Mhm, hmm. So you really would like to find a way of stopping smoking and do I understand there's some particular barrier you feel?
C2: Um, it's connected with anxiety, the natural trigger that causes, that I feel the need to smoke.
T2: Mhm, hmm.
C3: Um, nervousness sometimes. (T: Mhm, hmm) Um, for instance, I'm real nervous right now (laughs). (T: Mhm, hmm) And my breathing stops right here (points to body) (T: Mhm, hmm) and a cigarette for me, draws the breath deep down and helps me (inaudible) (T: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm) If I feel um, conflict or, um, attack or a situation that is hard for me to cope that helps me draw my breath down and (T: Mhm, hmm) um, my whole body feels tense and tight right here . . . (gestures to chest)
T3: So right here now is one of the situations where you would like to smoke. You're anxious.
C4: It's not real strong . . .Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume 17, Lydia 1st Interview, page 92
T4: Mhm, hmm. But you're kind of nervous and anxious. Mhm, hmm. Or when somebody is getting after you really . . .(omission due to end of original audio tape)
C10: Yeah. (laughs) We uh, saw a movie last night that brought up a lot of emotional issues for me. I wanted to cry . . . (T: Mhm, hmm) um, it wasn't appropriate in my estimation, my judgement, um, we were with a lot of people I (inaudible) it was not at that time appropriate. I was aware of the feelings that I felt (T: Mhm, hmm) and for me, to smoke a cigarette helped me center and be okay with what I was feeling. Um . . .
T10: So that's a slightly different situation where you're feeling something strongly but feel, "that I can't express it here." (C : Right) And so, a smoke could help you to breathe and get centered and take the place of expressing those feelings? Take the place of crying?
C11: Um, take the place of crying. Uh, I expressed my feelings um, with people that we were with, that it made me sad. (T: Mhm, hmm) And um, that it reminded me of things that were painful (T: Mhm, hmm) and um . . .
T11: So smoking took the place of crying.
C12: Well, I said that so, (T: Mhm, hmm) it's like this feeling. What it did was loosen this feeling that I have right here that's (inaudible) real tight, almost like I can't breathe. Like my, my breath is up here, real (points to body) high. (T: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm) It's almost like (shallow breaths) and (inaudible) . . . T: (inaudible) breathing up here . . . (C : Mhm, hmm.) (inaudible)
T12: So that's what smoking does for you is help you to breathe when at times you're feeling like you almost can't breathe.
C13: Mhm, hmm. That's for me, the trigger. I've quit many times, (T: Mhm, hmm) once for nine months. Once for three months. Once, and the, and it's an external thing and the way I cope with the external stimulus that causes me to have a need or feel the need, desire to have a cigarette.
T13: Sounds you have a lot of knowledge about it: it's just that it doesn't keep you from going back to smoking.
C14: Mhm, hmm. (Pause 50 seconds) We're gonna sit here and be quiet? (laughs)
T17: So this would be a very hard time to be silent for that long.
C18: I feel like I'm wasting everybody's time. (inaudible)
T18: At the moment you're very aware of the group. Is that what you're saying?
C19: Mhm, hmm.
T19: Mhm, hmm. I'm just aware of you.
(Pause 30 seconds)
C20: It's a struggle for me. When I'm in here with me, you know? (T: Mhm, hmm) And we're just, I'm okay. (T: Mhm, hmm) Uh, it's a conflict, a feeling inside of me that I think goes back and forth. (Gestures back and forth with hands)
T20: Mhm, hmm. When you're with yourself and with me (C : Mhm, hmm) that feels okay. (C : Mhm, hmm) It's when you realize that there's all these people . . .
C21: Mhm, hmm. What comes up is expectations . . . (T: Uh, huh. Uh, huh) I'm supposed to um . . .
T21: "What am I supposed to do?" "What do they expect of me?" (C : Right.) (Pause 30 seconds)
C22: I'm just with you I can feel your breathing is way down here (gestures to abdomen) (T: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm) It's relaxing (inaudible) (T: Mhm, hmm) With myself I'm . . .
T22: Between the two of us there's a calmness. (C : Mhm, hmm) Your breathing is okay. (C : Mhm, hmm) In you as well as in me? (C : Mhm, hmm) Mhm, hmm. (Nodding)
C23: And yet, just focusing on you, I can feel you have that calmness too. So . . . (T: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm) it's fine. (T: Mhm, hmm) I guess, I can be with me and with you without interrupting that feeling.
T32: But it just happens without your knowing why.
C33: Mhm, hmm. In the encounter group we had earlier this week, this happened. (T: Mhm, hmm) And I still don't know why. (Body jerks)
T33: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. You don't quite understand what happens when your body is, (inaudible) goes . . .
C34: And I feel it just races around (inaudible) . . (Gestures toward her forehead)
T34: Yeah. Can you say some of things that are racing around up there? (Gesturing towards his head)
C35: "What is this about?" "This looks stupid." You know, ''what are you doing?" You know, uh, I've seen people who have seizures, you know? (T: Uh, huh. Uh, huh) And that's my experience of what my body's doing. And it's . . .
T35: Uh, huh. So, are you being stupid or having a seizure or what in the world is going on? You keep asking yourself.
C36: Yeah.
T36: Sort of critical of yourself?
C37: Hmm. Part of me is judging it as wrong and the other part is saying, "Shut up. Whatever this is just go with it and be.”
T37: Mhm, hmm. But part of you is saying, "Now stop it, it's stupid. This is ridiculous." And another part of you is saying, "Wait a minute. My body is doing something, if I can go with it, maybe I can learn something."
C38: Right.
T38: Mhm, hmm. But you feel as though, perhaps your body is trying to teach you something but you don't know what it is.
C39: Mhm, hmm. (Nodding) (Pause 15 seconds) (Body jerks, she smiles) It's embarrassing to me.
T39: (strains to hear).
C40: It's embarrassing. (T: Yeah) I'm embarrassed. (Her body is subtly shaking)
T40: Mhm, hmm. It definitely makes you feel embarrassed. Uh, huh. It's embarrassing to me (points to his chest) or to you (points to her) or the group or . . . ?
C41: Not to you. I don't feel you're puttin' any judgement on it.
T41: I certainly hope I'm not embarrassing you.
C42: I guess I'm putting judgements on it for myself. (T: Uh, huh) And I try to put myself in, in the position of watching this (T: Uh, huh) and that's what I would think of, what is that up there . . .
T42: Sounds that a lot of the time you're in the position of watching yourself and you're saying, uh, "Now what you're doing is not good. It's not really right. n
C43: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. (Nodding) (Subtle shaking continues) I'm trying to get away from the judgement of myself as well and that's this conflict inside that says, "Go with this feeling. There's a reason for it." And the part that says, you know, it's a judgement or (inaudible) . . .
T43: Mhm, hmm. There are two very real parts of you and one is that you judge and say, "This is stupid. Don't do that. It's embarrassing. It's not good." And then you say, "Well wait a minute . . . what is my body trying to tell me? What is it trying to tell me?" (inaudible) (Pause 15 seconds) (inaudible). (C : Subtle shaking continues)
C44: Mhm, hmm. Inside. (Gestures to midriff; shaking more perceptible)
T44: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. "There's something that wants to get out."
C45: I know. (Nodding) It's okay. I don't know what it is. (Shaking becomes more intense)
T45: Uh, huh. Uh, huh. Uh, huh. There is something that wants to get out but what it is you have no idea. But it wants to get out bad enough that you're shaking all over.
C46: Mhm, hmm . . . (Pause 10 seconds) (Shaking) it's comical in a way, I mean.
T46: (Strains to hear)
C47: It's comical in a way. (Body shakes; shakes head; smiling) I mean, you know, I . . .
T47: And that's one of the other judgements, "that this is, this is just comical. It's a comedy." (C : nodding, shaking) But I think the other part of you is saying, "That's no comedy."
C48: Yeah. Lot's of parts.
T48: Hmm?
C49: Lot's of parts. I'd like to put all of it together. (Laughs) (Shaking movement becomes more intense)
T50: Mhm, hmm. It would be nice to put the parts together, (inaudible) . . (Pause 10 seconds) Shaking . . . (inaudible).
C51: Mhm, hmm. It's gettin' stronger. (Shaking is more jerky)
T51: Something so much wants to come out. (C nods)(Pause 8 seconds) You want to hold my hands? (Reaches forward with his hands.)
C52: (Nods and reaches forward taking T's hands.) You have such a calming effect, it goes away. (Smiles; shaking has stopped.)
T52: Do you think it will help it to come out?
C53: (Body is still) (inaudible). It's so grounded, so centered. I don't know. At first, it was calming. It's starting again. (Body begins to shake as before.) I'm a little frightened. (Body shaking; still holding T’s hands.)
T53: A little scared. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. There's something very scary that's going on inside.
C54: (Nods) (Pause 15 seconds)
T54: I think that's why I wanted to hold your hands to see if it's safe enough to come out. But all your nerves are scared.
C55: hhm, hmm. (Nods; Body shaking, holding hands.)
T55: What's the awful thing that could happen?
C56: (Gasps) I don't know. (inaudible) (Pause 15 seconds) oh, what c-omes up, what you were talking about like, you know, when the blacks, the blacks said it was worse than they thought?
T56: Ah, yes.
C57: That's what. Yeah.
T57: Uh, huh. Uh, huh. That everything inside of you is worse than you thought.
T68: Don't be worried about her. Some people are taking care of her. (C : Sobs) Just you. Let the tears come. (C Shaking) Let it come. (Pause 15 seconds)
T69: A choking feeling. Uh, huh. Uh, huh. Uh, huh. You can't breathe. You can't hardly breathe. Is that what's so scary?
C70: I don't know.
T70: You don't know. It seems you have that choking feeling as if you can't breathe. You can't breathe. (C : Continues to cry, gasp, and shake, still holding T's hands.) (Pause 28 seconds)
C71: Ohhh.
T71: When you let go and just cry does it come out? (C : Shaking) Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. (C : gasping) You can't breathe?
C72: Choking.
T72: Choking. Mhm, hmm. Just can't breathe at all. It's terrible.
C73: (Takes deeper breaths)
T73: Mhm, hmm. You choke.
C74: (During 20 second pause, she breathes heavily and shakes)
Audience: (Others begin to cry and sob loudly.)
T74: A lot of people are feeling with you.
C75: I know. (sobbing, body shaking, shakes her head; tries to speak)
T75: (Leaning forward) Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm.
C76: (sobbing)
T76: (Inaudible) You just feel like sobbing (C sobbing, gasping) and choking, (C sobbing) and shaking . . .
T78: You don't know what. But just afraid. But just a very scary moment. (C Nods, shaking) Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. You're living through a lot of fear. It's just so frightening. It makes you shake all over.
C79: (Sobbing, shaking and breathing heavily - 28 seconds)
T79: Just scared.
C80: I'm not just aware of my body shaking. The fear comes without it.
T80: The fear comes and goes. I see. The body shaking goes on and on. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Hmm.
C81: (breathing heavily - 15 seconds) It gets me tired.
T81: It gets you tired. Uh, huh. I should think so. Shaking, shaking, shaking. The fear coming and going.
C82: My head's spinning.
T82: Your head's spinning?
C83: Dizzy. (Intense shaking continues)
T83: Dizzy. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Hmm. What does the fear seem to be of? Fear of choking, fear of convulsions? What is the fear about, do you have a clue?
C84: What is all this about?
T84: What is all this about, I see. "What in the world is my body doing to me?" (C Nods) Mhm, hmm. "What is it about?" Hmm. (C Nods)
C85: Part of me wants to stop it. (voice shaking)
T85: Mhm, hmm.
C86: And another part of me doesn't.
T86: Uh, huh. Uh, huh. Mhm, hmm. Part of you feels really in tune with it in some way and wants to go on.
C87: (Nods, body shaking continues)
T87: Hmm. Hmm. (Pause 15 seconds) Tired. Really tired. Mhm, hmm. You wish you could give yourself a little rest.
C88: (Nods, shaking is more intermittent, jerky, still holding T's hands.) Okay. When I think it's over, it starts again. Can I do something to assist whatever this process is? What . . .
T88: Umm, what . . .
C89: Can I do something to assist this process so it can do (T: Sure) what it needs to do. What can I do?
T89: Well, what do you want to do?
C90: I don't know.
T90: Do you want to open your mouth and shout for a while, (C Shakes head.) I don't know what else . . . what would feel good? (C begins to sob again - 12 seconds) Would you like to sit on my lap?
C91: No. (soft laugh) I'm okay.
T91: Hmm? You're okay?
C92: Thank you. (sobbing) I just want it out. (inaudible)
T92: Something isn't . . . (C : Out) hmm?
C93: (Sobs) I want it out whatever it is (inaudible).
T93: Part of it's, part of it's weeping and part of it's fear . . . You really want it out. "Come out," huh?
C94: (Shaking intensely) I'm so tired.
T94: So tired. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. You've just had about all you can take. And your body feels it.
T97: (Shifts his hands to hold her wrists.) Do your legs feel okay? Mhm, hmm. (inaudible) I feel as though we've been through quite a lot together.
C98: Do you feel the shaking?
T98: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. (Shifts his hands to hold her hands again.) (Pause 15 seconds) Do you think we can bring it to a close?
C99: Okay. I still don't understand it.
T99: I don't either. I know that it's fear and it's choking and it's weeping and sobbing. It's scary as hell. (C Nods; releases T's hands.) (Pause 14 seconds)
C100: I feel more energy than . . .
T100: You've been breathing deeper. Mhm, hmm.
C101: (Nods.) (inaudible) (Rotates hand at chest level.)
T101: Mhm, hmm. You can see it. It's as if you were born again.
C102: (Laughs). (Pause 10 seconds) Does your body feel calm now?
T102: Does mine?
C103: Mhm, hmm.
T103: Does your's? Mhm, hmm.
C104: Since you felt the other I want you to feel this too.
T104: Hmm?
C105: If you felt the other I want you to feel this too.
T105: (Laughs) (Audience laughs) I didn't feel shaking inside myself, I could feel your shaking. Mhm, hmm. How about we rest for a minute? Let's see. Do you mind if I say a little about how it seemed to me?
T1: I felt what happened was somewhat of a surprise to you and it certainly was a complete surprise to me. I felt sure, I felt very good about the silence because I felt they were your silences. I was sure things must be going on, and I thought I said that too, but I didn't need to know them. And uh, I just felt we were very much in touch somehow. And it isn't anything planful but I just felt that when you were going through so much I wondered if it would help to hold your hands and I'm not sure whether it did or not. And uh, I'm sorry it couldn't come out now whatever it is. Maybe it's a number of things. I hope sometime it can come out. I wish you could, if we get a chance to work together more it might help bring that out. Uh, I thought it was a bit unusual, I think for lots of people talk quite a lot. You didn't talk quite a lot but your body showed a great deal and I felt very responsive to that.
C1: I felt we were (inaudible). I just felt safe. I don't know why. If I'm suppressing something, I'm not consciously aware of it.
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.
Throughout this interview the responses of the therapist (T) (Rogers), and the client (C) are numbered for easy reference.
Carl Rogers’ Second Interview with Lydia [code name] - August 5, 1986 The La Jolla Program
T: (Inaudible) I told her, if she should happen to be among those who volunteered I would like for her to be the client because then uh, (Inaudible) so Lydia is my client. And I'm glad to see her. I'd like to be quiet for a minute now.
T: (Pause 45 seconds) Mhm, hmm. Um, I'd like to be with you wherever you are today. It was a rather unusual time last week but this week may be totally different. It may be similar. Whatever, I just want to be with you wherever you are. Wherever you are.
C1: (Inaudible).
T1: Mmm, hmm. Feeling tense?
C2: (Nods and smiles - inaudible), shaky . . .
T2: Mhm, hmm.
C3: (Inaudible) helped me just to be with myself. (Inaudible)
T3: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. It helped you because-(Inaudible) you've been a little jumpy . . .
C4: It helps. (Pause 7 seconds) I am very curious as to what happened last time.
T4: Mhm, hmm.
C5: I'm very surprised that I would have another opportunity . . . I was hoping, kinda going for it like I'm kind of, I'm shocked.
T5: You were a bit surprised that I would see you a second time.
(Pause 50 seconds)
C6: It's a little bit of putting expectations and trying to you know, make it be alright instead of having . . .
T6: So you create the expectations and you're trying to be wherever you are. (Pause 45 seconds) (Inaudible) starts at the beginning (smiles). (Pause 22 seconds) Is there any way of saying what that means to you?
C7: It has such a tremendous amount of energy. Power. It's almost. I don't understand it enough to put it in words.
T7: But it does seem like a lot of power. Power that's coming out of that tension. (C nods, begins to bounce and shake in small up and down movements as if her shoulders are shaking and making the rest of her body shake too.)
(Pause 40 seconds)
C8: Fear . . .
T8: Fear.
C9: And anger.
T9: Mhm, hmm.
C10: I can't. (Shakes head) (Inaudible).
T10: Mhm, hmm. "It really seems absurd. What, what is it I'm afraid of?" (Pause) What is the worst that could happen?
C11: That I can't explain my behavior. (Laughs)
T11: Oh. The worst thing that could happen would be that you would go on behaving in this way and not have any explanation of it for others or any explanation of it for yourself?
C12: Both.
T12: Both.-
C13: Mainly for others because when (Inaudible) good. (Inaudible).
T13: Okay. Okay.
C14: I can't explain it.
T14: Even though it's a good experience that doesn't need explanation. For other people they might need (Inaudible) or something. (Pause) But for you right now it's good and it's experiencing power.
T24: You don't understand it. Mhm, hmm. You don't know what's going on.
C25: It's like I'm, I'm retching.
T25: You're retching. Uh, huh.
C26: I am.
2T26: Mhm, hmm. You're bottling up something.
C27: It's strange. Now I feel calm.
T27: Mhm, hmm. It's a really strange experience because you feel calm but then you're also coughing up something. (Inaudible) retching (Inaudible). (Pause 20 seconds) You go through it and then a calmness.
C28: (Nods) (Pause 25 seconds) And now I feel all this electricity.
T28: Mhm, hmm . . . some kind of power surging through you sort of? (Pause 10 seconds) It's hard to figure, it's strong and it's good yet, it's retching and vomiting.
C29: It's not like that . . . after a while after I shake and shake and there's a knot in my stomach, and then (Inaudible).
T29: Uh, huh.
C30: And after that just calm.
T30: Mhm, hmm. After the retching you become real calm . . . then your stomach isn't in a knot.
C31: (Inaudible). (Coughs from audience)
T31: Mhm, hmm.
(Pause 20 seconds)
C32: Right now I want to understand it. I want to know what it's all about. I want to know is "it's over."
T32: Mhm, hmm. "What is this thing going on in me? I'd really like to understand it, know what it's about, know what it's for." Mhm, hmm. "All I know now is it's powerful, it's like a surge of electricity. It's retching. It's a calm.
C33: Now that it's calm, I can feel the blood rushing through my body.
T33: Mhm, hmm. It's a healthy feeling of blood coursing through your veins. Mhm, hmm . . . it must be okay, thoughts running around in your mind.
C34: The same ones. Over and over.
T34: Hmm?
35C: The same ones. "Over and over."
T35: "Over and over."
C36: "What is this about?"
T36: "What is this about?"
C37: "Are you suppressing something or are you trying not to?"
T37: Uh, huh. You're trying to be as open to the experience as you can be. "I don't want to push anything down or keep anything from coming up. The same thoughts keep running and running around. What is this about? What does it have to do with me?"
C38: I have a little bit of fear but I'm willing to go through with (Inaudible) the experience.
T38: A little bit of fear?
C39: But more willing to go through it.
T39: To go through it. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. "Whatever this is I really want to live through it. I want to experience it. I want to feel it. I want to be in it."
(Pause 20 seconds)
C40: My heart is racing.
T40: Your heart racing, uh, huh. Sounds like something that clings hold of you but you let it cling hold of you.
T42: Dizzy. Uh, huh. Sort of lightheaded, mhm, hmm. Feeling as though you might faint.
C43: My head feels as though it spinning
T43: Your head's spinning around and around and around. A really dizzy feeling.
(Pause 1 minute 40 seconds)
C44: (Breathes heavily, begins to shake very hard and gasp.)
T44: Mhm, hmm. (Inaudible)
(Pause 90 seconds)
C45: (Cries deeply, and shakes very much.)
T45: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. (Inaudible)
C46: (Takes in a breath, gasps and then coughs.)
T46: (Inaudible).
(Pause 55 seconds)
47C : (Sobs.)
T47: (Inaudible) throat retching?
C48: No. (Shakes head.)
T48: Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Mhm, hmm. Hmm. Hmm. (Pause 45 seconds) There are tears now. (P: Nods) Mhm, hmm. So now you want to weep. You better let 'em out. You're letting out tears and you're shaking . . . they're right there.
T1: I feel very glad we had this second time (Inaudible) a chance to go through it again. (Inaudible) I feel mystified about it too. (Inaudible)
C1: It doesn't do any good for me to try and figure it out.
T2: That's okay. It's something to be experienced (Inaudible) This time I was more aware of the fact that she was shaking too. Was she a good friend of yours? Uh, huh.
C2: Very good friend.
T3: (Inaudible) last time. I thought maybe there was some connection (Inaudible.
C3: I was aware, but I was trying to stay (Inaudible).
T4: So was I (Inaudible) but suddenly it occurred to me, maybe that's part of it.
C4: Last time I could see her, and I saw when she fainted and it scared me. This time (T: This time I could see her) (Audience laughs) And I don't understand that either. We've tried to figure that out (Inaudible). I thought that was an intuitive response that would work.
T5: Maybe she should be the client. (Laughs) (C laughs) (T: Inaudible)
C5: Only I get flashbacks of things. I dream every night. I write down my dreams. I don't understand how they all tie together. One night about an earthquake . . .
