Eric Westman presenta.on (Vail 2016)
I'm going to talk about LCHF in diabetes,
the theory and then the clinical experience.
So I'm here to try to bring together the clinical and the research.
We did cri@cal trials at Duke for about 15 years,
then I've been in clinical prac@ce blissfully happy and busy,
like you've heard, using LCHF to fix lots of things today.
So, we also have one of the only medical school elec@ves,
that teach ketogenic diets,
some medical management of obesity elec@ve at Duke.
I'm chairman of the Obesity Medicine Associa@on, meaning the past president.
And if you ever have a choice, don't be the president of an organiza@on
when they change their name.
I'm a fellow of the Obesity Society where we present our research on obesity in the US
and a fellow of the Obesity Medicine Associa@on as well,
I'm the author of the "New Atkins for a New You",
also author with Jimmy Moore.
Telling a professor of medicine to only speak for 30 minutes is really tough.
You know I've goTen into that point where I can speak in front of people
when they are falling asleep and s@ll go on.
So let's go back in @me, actually about 100 years ago,
before there was any heart disease.
Heart disease was a rare event at this @me,
but diabetes was known and the treatment of diabetes-‐-‐
EllioT Proctor Joslin was one of the prime teachers at the @me, in 1893,
he recommended a low carbohydrate high-‐fat diet,
as shown in the case descrip@on of this pa@ent Mary H. -‐
"Diete@c treatment is of the first importance."
Remember, this is 1893.
"The carbohydrates taken in the food are of no use to the body
"and must be moved by the kidneys
thereby entailing polydipsia, polyuria pruritus and renal disease."
That's lots of thirst, lots of urine and itching in renal disease.
Mary H. was put on a stringent diet consis@ng only of protein and fat.
"The beneficial effects were seen at once."
She gained five or six pounds,
and was advised to eat all the cream, buTer, and faTy food possible.
Why are you laughing?
It's what I use today, honestly.
Is not just EllioT Joslin, Joslin clinic, Boston,
today, the clinic is named a_er him.
Frederick Allen was one who really did a lot of the research
in the treatment of diabetes mellitus in humans,
Allen employed fas@ng, then, a stepwise reintroduc@on of macronutrients
to find the threshold at which the urine glucose developed glycosuria.
First, the pa@ent was fasted, no food, un@l glycosuria, urine's sugar,
was no longer present.
Then, carbohydrates, in the form of green vegetables were introduced,
who we call them low glycemic or non-‐starchy vegetables today,
star@ng at 10g per day, total grams, not net grams,
no sugar, alcohols, none of these other things today.
And increased un@l the glycosuria threshold was reached,
@ll the urine was seen... glucose was seen in the urine.
They couldn't check blood glucose at the @me, so, they were using urine.
Today we know we can do beTer than urine, we can actually check the blood.
The carbohydrate intake prior to the appearance of glycosuria,
was considered the op@mal amount of carbohydrate.
This level was maintained and then protein was added to the diet,
beginning 1 to 1.5g of protein today, which is interes@ng,
that's the recommenda@on by all the pundits today,
a_er all the research we've been doing.
Even when you're losing weight, 1.5g of protein per day
to find the glycosuria threshold
for the combina@on of carbohydrate and protein.
So, it was known in the early 1900s that protein in the food
would increase the blood sugar and increase the urine sugar, even then.
Finally, fat was added to the diet,
to provide calories for weight gain or weight maintenance.
And fat was observed to have liTle effect on glycosuria,
because fat doesn't raise the blood sugar, will raise the urine sugar.
For some pa@ents, a weekly fast day was recommended.
Wow!
So, this was published and summarized by myself and Will Yancy from work in 1915.
Serendipity, coincidence, whatever you say it,
I was given this book, which is the Osler Principles and Prac@ce of Medicine,
published in 1923 by a pa@ent of mine,
at the VA Hospital in Durham North Carolina,
when I was doing one of the first re-‐studies of the low-‐carb high-‐fat diets
and having one of the hospital directors
being lobbied by my die@@an locally to stop the study,
because I would kill people.
So I had this pa@ent brought in, you know,
"Doc, I know you're a kind of a history buff" I was a history major at Stanford.
When I went to medical school in Wisconsin, that was my hometown.
I look in the book and I didn't really know much about the treatment,
I didn't know much about nutri@on. Right?
I'm a doctor, went to medical school in the 80s,
we don't have any classes... What do they know in 1923?
Well, lo and behold this diet is the same diet I was studying in 2000
and trying to be squelched.
So, I thought something was curious to this.
So, the Diabe@c Diet in the Pre-‐Insulin Era
with the "Quan@ty of food required by a severe diabe@c pa@ent weighing 60 kg",
was 10g of carbohydrate for the whole day,
75g of protein, 150g of fat and 15g of alcohol
And when I show this slide, my pa@ents want to volunteer for the study on alcohol.
But the strict diet was: meats, poultry, game, fish, clear soups,
gela@n, eggs, buTer, olive oil, coffee and tea.
Here are the research papers at the @me and...
I was really studying nothing new,
although in the context of what you heard for about 20 or 30 years
have being told other things, this had been forgoTen.
And insulin hadn't been discovered, it didn't make it in un@l 1921,
it didn't make it into this textbook, so there's nothing on the insulin.
The insulin story is fascina@ng
and no ques@on, insulin saved lives immediately.
So, a child like this who was emaciated, he couldn't store fat without insulin.
And that is a take-‐home message,
the main func@on of insulin is to help you store fat,
when you're ea@ng carbohydrates.
I think the main func@on is actually amino acid uptake into the cells,
but that's kind of a small player, when you're ea@ng lots of carbohydrates.
So, this liTle child on the le_, was one of the first to get insulin therapy.
And you can see, he plumped up really nicely,
a_er being able to get insulin, saved his life.
Another child couldn't store fat because of type 1 diabetes,
no insulin being secreted internally by the body,
and now you give insulin on the outside, a shot of insulin
and the child has lower blood sugars,
doesn't have the disease of diabetes... it's treated with insulin, however.
Before the discovery of insulin
an individual with type 1 diabe@c would become emaciated
because of the inability to store fat,
and the loss of energy from chronic sugar in the urine, glycosuria.
Despite high energy intake, no fat storage would occur.
This was called "starva@on in the midst of plenty"
because the body would be thin despite the large energy intake.
So, insulin therapy for insulin deficiency,
allowed individuals with type 1 diabetes to live.
Miraculous.
On the le_ side of this panel, type 1 diabetes, insulin deficiency,
the remedy for insulin deficiency is to increase insulin.
But on the right side of this panel, type 2 diabetes,
especially when it's associated with obesity,
is really at the same problem of insulin excess hyperinsulinemia.
As we saw the work like dr. Kra_ talk about and dr. Gerber,
there's too much insulin.
Crea@ng insulin resistance you're able to store fat,
but you are unable to use the fat for energy.
You have a fat body habitus
and you're starving due the glucose swings in constant fat storing,
because you can't access the fat.
So, the remedy is to reduce the insulin, not to increase it or use it.
And so, looking at the pathophysiology of type 2 diabetes,
very different than type 2
and using insulin is like winning the baTle
and losing the war in the long run.
So, there are other ways to do it, than giving medica@ons to fix diabetes.
If you look at the guidelines, what happened over @me and you can read these,
nobody really knows for sure.
There was no pivotal study that said using medica@ons and a high carb diet
is beTer than a low-‐carb diet.
That study was never done and needs to be done again today,
to put low-‐carb high-‐fat on the same randomized trial evidence
of everything else we assume, like drugs, and I think we need to do that.
But all of the associa@ons-‐-‐
I think Ancel Keys was a part of the associa@on gejng on line,
to use high carb low-‐fat diets for diabe@cs, because they die of heart disease.
And we all know now that fat in the diet causes heart disease, around 1970,
and so, they stopped telling people with diabetes to reduce carbs,
they told them to reduce fat without regard to the carbs and the glycemic control etc.
So, basically, a chronic disease was started called type 2 diabetes
with insulin treatment and insulin resistance
and this young child is saying
"I'm learning to manage my type 2 diabetes with insulin"
while he's ea@ng all this stuff.
Now, it's kind of chilling to know that children actually are in this situa@on.
So, what does the science say?
I mean, okay, "That's 100 years ago, Dr. Westman."
Well, 2005, Guenther Boden puts people with type 2 diabetes in a research work.
We know exactly what they're ea@ng, what were the main limita@ons of our work
and other outpa@ent work, even with clinical trials.
If we don't really know what people are ea@ng,
this is the best study if you want to know what happens
on people where you know exactly what they are ea@ng.
Annals of internal medicine 2005, you can see on the black bars,
glucose is higher when they're ea@ng the regular diet
and the glucose goes down on the low-‐carb diet, that open circles
and then in the boTom, insulin levels go down as you'd expect,
when you eat less carbohydrate, you have less insulin.
This is really-‐-‐ this was taught in physiology and then forgoTen
and now rediscovered in randomized trials.
They are very costly to do, but it's not just Guenther Boden...
When we had the first mee@ngs like this in 2004,
we got Dr. Bishop to come over from Europe,
to just show that if you didn't eat carbohydrate,
the glucose didn't go up and the insulin didn't go up.
And again, it's basic physiology that everyone had forgoTen,
but this is the replica@on or the first study.
But, you know, that's okay, there's more research
and if you want to make sure that it's on a different con@nent
that humans who live in Australia are similar to the human... Anyway.
So, this is the study by Manny Noakes the CSIRO in Australia, in Adelaide.
And in red, when you have no carbs in the diet, the red lines,
there's really no rise in glucose and no rise in insulin.
This study really stood out by saying,
"Let's give a diet tolerance test, not a glucose tolerance test."
It makes no sense to give someone on a low-‐carb diet, glucose, to see what happens,
let's given some of the low-‐carb diet a meal that's low in carb and see what happens.
So, we are using methods and standards derived from carbohydrate ea@ng
and applying it to a different situa@on, which to me calls into ques@on,
just about every theory that has been developed from that world.
But so, in diet specific glucose tolerance or meal tolerance tests,
there's no rise in glucose or insulin, a_er not ea@ng carbohydrates.
When I was faced with-‐-‐ okay, it works for obesity
and I thought the low hanging fruit would be less now uses for diabetes.
100 years ago it's what they used,
and the DCCT, which is the diabetes control trial,
where they are using 230g of carbs per day,
in the interven@on diet,
the best they could do with medica@on in a high carb diet,
was an A1c of 8.9% or 7.1%,
normal being under 5% op@mally or under 6%.
So I went to visit doctors who were using this kind of diet in clinic
and under the best circumstances, when people are following the diet,
which may be you know, you,
not people in a randomized trial who may or may not be following it,
they were achieving normal blood sugars off medica@on,
using a low-‐carb high-‐fat diet.
So, I visited these prac@ces, said let's write up ar@cles.
And we did them. These are published and never cited.
I didn't want to hurt anybody "Primum non nocere."
Did you see that? "First do no harm."
Do people really need to eat carbohydrate?
World panel is saying, "You must",
world panel is saying "120g are used by the brain of glucose,
so you must eat 120g of glucose."
Did they forget or maybe not know that the body can make glucose?
When you look on who's on those panels, they really didn't have physiologists.
I was presen@ng a research on low-‐carb diets and people didn't believe me,
so I had to start following one myself.
And people would say, "That can't be true, people need carbs."
and I would say "I haven't had a carbohydrate in six months and I'm here."
And then, suddenly people believe the science.
I mean, is there such a lack of faith in the research that nobody believes even...
So, it's kind of crazy.
So, you don't really have to have carbohydrates.
The Ins@tute of medicine in the US
has the best unbiased source of informa@on about this.
And look up on their website.
"The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compa@ble with life apparently is zero,
provided that adequate amounts of protein and fats are consumed."
Even then you can see that's hedged a liTle bit
and we might even say that emerging evidence is
it might be even healthier to not eat carbohydrate,
if we really updated that with this conference in Tampa just in January
on metabolic therapeu@cs using ketones.
It's fascina@ng to see this.
You need to look at the year that things were wriTen,
because a lot has changed in the last two years.
Okay, let alone 10 years to review the paper recently
where they looked at the guidelines from 2004
for carbohydrate restric@on and type 2 diabetes,
the daily study wasn't quite as low in carbs, down to 110 carbs per day,
the Westman study, that's Will Yancy and I really are the only ones
who dared to go down to do what Frederick Allen in Osler did 100 years ago
The 20g... it's so low level...
It's not so low.
It's okay.
And what we found out in our 2008 study was that the low glycemic index diet works.
No ques@on about it.
Low glycemic low-‐calorie will work for diabetes,
but the low-‐carb ketogenic diet worked beTer.
So you're going to see people siding things -‐
Well, it's fantas@c.
A lot of things work and there are a lot of things that work for different people.
But if we compare them head-‐to-‐head,
the lower you go on the carbs, the beTer the glycemic control.
Recapitula@ng what had been known
before the medica@ons were available for the treatment of diabetes.
So there's been a resurgence of research on this...
So Laura Saslow, Jeannie Tae, Sartori Yamada,
Dr. Meyer who did a substudy of the Duke study.
PreTy much the same theme -‐
You can improve diabetes, get weight loss.
The good news now that the pharmaceu@cal industry is in the obesity treatment world,
we have studies on using medica@ons to treat obesity and diabetes.
And diabetes gets beTer.
So if you want to use that informa@on,
I didn't use that here with the weight loss...
But by whatever other method -‐ surgery, medica@on, diet,
you'll get weight loss and improvement in diabetes.
But the lower you go on the carbs, the beTer you'll do I think.
And here is why.
It's right in front of your face.
And as a pimp ques@on,
meaning if one of my students or residents are really kind of jerks-‐-‐-‐
I say "Okay, how much sugar is there in the bloodstream at any given moment?"
Uh-‐hmm, uhh...
You know the two Japanese medical students I've had, taking my rota@on at two,
knew just like that.
I don't know if it's a millimole thing, but our students-‐-‐
I said, "Okay, it's 100 mg/dL is a normal blood sugar.
"Remember that thing now taught in middle school,
you take 1000g and..."
Whatever.
There's 5g of sugar in the en@re bloodstream at any given moment.
It's roughly a teaspoon of sugar.
So basically, when you look from the blood sampling, blood situa@on -‐
5g going around at any given moment,
and you throw in 200g in one meal...
Or let's say, the diabe@c recommenda@on by the Diabetes Associa@on of 45g per meal,
this is going to overload the blood sugar, you can't control it.
Your blood sugar is going to go up.
Oh, we actually for a long @me taught that it's normal
to have an increase in blood sugar a_er a meal.
Because that's what everyone was doing.
But is that op@mal?
So you don't have to have a blood sugar rise a_er a meal.
So what do I do today?
Research money drying up...
You know I am a clinical doctor, clinical research Fellowship at Duke,
but my heart was really in the clinic with pa@ents.
Let me go back to the clinic and start using this at Duke.
We opened up the Duke Lifestyle Medicine Clinic now about 10 years ago
and teaching that just there are good carbs and bad carbs as we heard today,
everyone agrees that these bad carbs are not good.
The lower you go on the carbs per day in the Y axis,
the more likely you are to have ketosis.
And Dr. Phinney's slide -‐ that area where you want to get for op@mal ketosis-‐-‐
I don't do that, I just say, "Let's get down low and let's see what happens."
Most people do really well.
People come to me for it to work the first @me.
I say, "Let's do 20g or less.
Let's just go back to what they were doing 100 years ago."
The science looks good, not only for diabetes but for obesity
and hypertension and polycys@c ovary syndrome and heartburn
and faTy liver and irritable bowel syndrome.
We have studies published on all those things.
Whether you eat unlimited meat, poultry, seafood and eggs...
But I know you're not going to want much -‐ eat all you want...
but I know you're not going to want much, because you're not hungry.
That's how it works -‐ limit the foods at the boTom...
2 cups of salad greens, 1 cup of non-‐starchy veggie
and you get an unlimited amount of cheese, mayonnaise, cream, things like that.
I think those are limited because they are high in calories.
You can't eat too many calories on the low-‐carb diet.
It s@ll works by lowering the calories,
but we don't count them in the teaching.
So you could do bacon and eggs or sugar-‐free yogurt with Berry slices
or not eat anything.
Like Dr. Fung will talk about that.
It's so easy, not eat anything -‐ it's a great slide.
It's so hard not to eat when you're out traveling.
I'm star@ng to use that in my teaching actually...
I learned a lot from the running on fat as fuel...
And by the way what kind of weight do you want to lose?
Fat weight? -‐ Yes... So you want to be a fat burning machine.
That really helped in the teaching of this for people.
So you can do it-‐-‐ I just had a gentleman, young man, lose 40 pounds in two months
by ea@ng two double cheeseburgers, no bun, at a fast food restaurant.
Jimmy Moore and I go back and forth on food quality versus carbohydrate quan@ty
and the main factor in my experience is carbohydrate quan@ty.
And if someone thought they had to have grass fed this, organic that,
so that therefore they couldn't do it.
Because I see it working without regard to any of that,
just by lowering the carb quan@ty.
But not to say that you shouldn't do those things,
just many of my pa@ents can't do it.
So what can happen today-‐-‐
It's great to see more and more prac@@oners here using the low-‐carb ketogenic diet
as we coined the term or low-‐carb high-‐fat diet, as it's coming out of Sweden.
100 units a day, just add up all the units -‐
a long ac@ng unit, a short ac@ng unit counted the same.
A unit from your insulin pump counted the same.
They are now units of insulin that count 500 units per CC.
Used to be just 100.
So the medica@on world is trying to go up and up on the insulin.
There is already too much insulin, so you want to reduce it.
Cut the insulin in half in the first day, otherwise you will get low blood sugars
and they will blame you for the problem when it was really over medica@on.
We have to be careful.
I worry about the spouses and the family members of my pa@ents
who get taught by me in an hour-‐long clinic,
because if they are on medica@on and the medica@on becomes too strong,
they're going to think that it was the diet that caused it,
when actually it was the medica@on.
Important point.
But preTy much it cuts-‐-‐ unless the glycemic control's way out of bounds,
cut the insulin in half in the first day.
When the blood sugar goes down, you cut back on the insulin,
instead of ea@ng up to meet the insulin-‐-‐
This person came off 100 units of insulin in six weeks.
So this is a small mul@ply, I'll show a bunch of these...
The minimum and maximum glucose at the beginning was 120 to 140,
the blood sugar is as good as before -‐ 110 to 130.
The person lost 5 pounds over six weeks, off all of insulin.
Not bad, huh?
80 units a day off in one week.
This person goes on insulin Actos, menormin, other oral medica@ons.
Blood sugars are good or beTer than before on no medica@on.
Add up all the insulin 60 units off in two weeks.
It doesn't maTer if it's mul@ple @mes a day,
how long the people have had the diabetes,
it seems off 100 units in three weeks...
180 units in one week, 160 units in four weeks.
This person had been on insulin for 25 years.
There is no happier pa@ent
than the pa@ent who comes off the insulin,
and he has been told that he was going to have diabetes forever.
I've seen doctors' lives being transformed
because they were given tools that didn't work.
They carried about their pa@ents and they started doing this
and their lives-‐-‐ now they are happy going to work,
seeing people were happy.
So it's not just a pa@ent being happy, it's a doctor being happy.
What if a country could be happy or a corpora@on or a public health system?
It's just a maTer of @me, don't you think?
250 units, 300 units of insulin off in a month,
500 units of insulin s@ll on a_er 10 weeks...
But this fellow is spending a lot less money.
He's in that area where the insurance isn't paying for it.
He's got to pay for it on his own.
I mean this person is injec@ng 100 units five @mes a day,
it's really kind of obscene.
The way I see it is that the food contributes par@ally to this,
but if the insulin resistance, the underlying cause for the diabetes is s@ll there,
you may not have normal blood sugar control for a while.
So let's see this person, 140 units-‐-‐ this person is on a pump.
Type 1 on a pump.
No problem with type 1, you just need a lot less insulin,
because your insulin or your medica@on is @trated to the carbohydrate in the diet.
You lower the carbohydrates, you lower the insulin.
Some people say, "You haven't shown me the hemoglobin A1c's",
which is a measure of three months over @me.
Here are a hemoglobin A1c's in the Y-‐axis under 6%, off medica@ons,
when the person had an A1c of 9 for 10 years.
You really don't need a randomized trial to show that this is effec@ve.
What you need is a randomized trial to show that it's safe
and not harmful or different than other methods that you use.
So the terrible thing would be to have an uncontrolled study,
have one or two random events in a low-‐carb arm
without randomiza@on to know
that it was just a process of weight loss or not this par@cular method of doing it.
This person is the internists' dream for treatment.
Diabetes, hypertension, Gerd -‐ that's heartburn,
diabetes Associa@on diet on insulin and pills,
checking blood sugars four @mes a day,
with an A1c of... let's say 7.
People say that's gold.
A straight endocrinologist would say, "This person is fixed."
On medica@on, hemoglobin A1c of 7%...
Now on low-‐carb high-‐fat, low-‐carb ketogenic diet or whatever we want to say it,
has lost 40, 50, 60 pounds,
he's off of all the medica@on, has no heartburn,
no hypertension, no diabetes.
It's so unbelievable, people don't believe it.
Honestly.
And that's why I have an open door policy, if you want come see this as a prac@@oner.
And there are other prac@@oners around the country, around the world,
who would be happy to have you sit in their office.
When I look back -‐ that's how I learned.
I went and sat in the office of Dr. Atkins years ago,
to get me through all of the barriers that you've just heard about today
to see the effects that can happen.
And then we formalized it into research.
Now I work in a clinical group where other university professors are there,
kind of looking... you know, we share pa@ents,
and a_er two or three pa@ents that I fix mutual pa@ents,
then they refer everybody to me.
Is a four to six months wai@ng list to coming to see me.
I'm sorry about that, but at the University that says, "You're really in demand."
And they like that.
You're so important, people have to wait for you.
Not good customer's service.
One of my colleagues down the hall said, "Gosh, that Westman says he can fix diabetes.
What if we get someone who's never had any treatment for diabetes?"
This was a 64 year old male, BMI of 29 kg/m²,
first onset of diabetes with a hemoglobin A1c of 10.5%.
They are in red.
Looking back the prior one was 5.9%, you know, three years before.
Just cut the curbs and so his doc says, "Cut the carbs and I'll send you to Westman."
Send it to the Lifestyle Medicine Clinic.
And the A1c was normal, 5.5%,
no medicines used, just dietary change,
basically now having to raise-‐-‐ the bar of evidence is preTy high now.
In fact one might argue, it's been argued in editorials
that only pharmaceu@cal companies can afford
the trials to be done to show the evidence.
Or you could just come to one of our clinics.
Compared to 10 years ago though, the social climate has changed in the US,
so I get very liTle pushback.
Even the cardiologists, lipidologists who I speak to in na@onal mee@ngs-‐-‐
And it's an educa@on barrier at the moment.
So, in summary, instruc@ng people to limit carb grams
leads to spontaneous reduc@on in caloric intake,
without explicitly limi@ng the calories.
There's a loss of body weight, improvements in glucose, fas@ng lipid profiles
if you incorporate trygliceride, HDL and your total cholesterol/HDL ra@o
preTy much gets beTer in everyone.
Improvement in systolic blood pressure, reduc@on in waist circumference.
A low-‐carb diet is the preferred diet for metabolic syndrome and for type 2 diabetes.
The prevailing treatment of medica@ons in a high-‐carb diet
was never compared to the low-‐carb high-‐fat diet in clinical research.
There is equipoise now.
And the low-‐carb high-‐fat world wants to put this to test
not only for obesity, but for diabetes
and as I learned in Cape Town, South Africa,
the athletes are going to be way ahead of all of those researchers here,
because their outcomes are known immediately.
But so we follow that-‐-‐ very interes@ng...
What I'm telling you from my vantage point,
trea@ng in a clinical sejng diabetes, hypertension,
across all socioeconomic levels.
Is preTy amazing how it can work and it is so amazing, people don't believe it.
What's new?
The low-‐carb summit happened last year in Cape Town,
Ketone therapeu@cs is in Tampa in January,
Low-‐carb, Vail, here in February,
Low-‐carb -‐ Cruise is a place where like minded people get together,
geeky lectures like mine, when you steam from port to port...
You can't ski there, but you can scuba dive and that sort of things.
FoodLoose in Iceland and now San Diego conference low-‐carb
looks like it's on our radar screen.
This is all fantas@c.
I was frustrated with people gejng off track,
because of all of the other foods out there have been approached
and I'm totally conflicted now with the adapt-‐your-‐life website,
which teaches for free, but also sells products that are truly low-‐carb.
We are learning more and more and every person is different,
but in most people we've tested now,
they don't raise the blood sugar, don't lower the ketone level,
these Adapt products which is preTy cool.
HEAL diabetes clinics is our aTempt to formalize and scale up the low-‐carb clinic
within a sejng, a host-‐doctor sejng.
If you are interested, this one is actually something you can invest in.
Check the website out and if you want to make a difference in any of these ways,
this is one way you can actually help out.
If enough people grassroots funds HEAL, I'm gone and I am at HEAL.
Because we just can't wait for systems to come around
with the evidence, the science that's there right now.
Thank you very much.